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Taiko vs SE - UK Law - Data Protection Act (Taiko Wins)Follow

#1 Sep 29 2010 at 6:34 AM Rating: Excellent
Afternoon all,

Some of the older people may remember back last year, I was having all sorts of issues with Square Enix, being jailed for no reason at all, billing issues, everything. I made a complaint to The Information Commissioners Office as I'd asked Square Enix for logs relating to my account, which they refused to provide as "it's not Square Enix policy". This is detailed in This thread

One year down the line (unfortunately these things take time), and the ICO have confirmed that Square Enix are in breach of The Data Protection Act 1998 Principles 6 & 7. The full response from the ICO is below.

Quote:
I write further to my letters of 26th July and 13th September 2010 concerning your complaint about the processing of your personal information by Square Enix Ltd. As I have alread explained, our duty in relation to your complaint is to make an assessment. An assessment is a view or opinion about whether it is likely or unlikely that Square Enix Ltd complied with the principles of the Data Protection Act 1998 (the DPA) in the situation that you described to us.

You were concerned that Square Enix Ltd had refused to respond to your subject access request dated 11th August 2009.

The sixth principle says:

"Personal data shall be processed in accordance with the right of data subjects under this Act"

From the information you provided I was not able to make my assessment. I asked Square Enix Ltd for their views and they have now provided the information I requested.

As you were aware from my letter of 13 September, I had received a response from Square Enix Ltd, explaining that you would be provided with your personal data subject to certain redactions, primarily regarding third party information. I had therefore requested further information regarding these redactions in order to be sure that these are justified.

With regards to your original request, Square Enix Ltd maintain that it was not received into their offices. Although I note that you had provided proof of delivery, Square Enix Ltd explained that they had moved offices around the time your request was sent. Your request was sent to their old offices, where they no longer had any staff based. They cannot therefore account for who signed for this letter. Additionally, Square Enix Ltd maintain that the email of the 23rd September 2009 in which a letter was acknowledged was sent in error.

It might be helpful to explain that we make our assessments on the balance of probabilities, and on this balance of probabilities, we accept that proof of delivery is sufficient evidence that a letter has been received. Additional to this, in order to comply with the seventh principle of the DPA an organisation must ensure that appropriate security measures are taken to protect personal data. This appears particularly significant where an organisation moves offices and cannot account for mail received and signed for at the old office.

In terms of the information which Square Enix Ltd propose to provide you in response to your subject access request, we are of the view that much of the redacted information can in fact be provided to you.

This is because although third party information may be available, it is nothing that you would not already be aware of.


From all of the information that is now available to me, it appears that Square Enix Ltd have failed to comply with the sixth principle in this case. This is because on the balance of probabilities it appears that your subject access request was received into their offices, and we believe that the redactions they have proposed are excessive.

In light of this it is my assessment that it is unlikely that Square Enix Ltd have complied with the DPA in this case.


So what does this mean?

Not a lot for those outside the UK I'm afraid. I'm only aware of UK law, but this investigation by the ICO means that it should now be easier for anyone in the UK to get information on their account and the information the SE hold, related to bannings, and the kind of action taken.

Potentially, this could lead to a damages claim from myself against SE. But I'm not interested in that or money, I just want them to be more open with the player base. It's also a good chance for them to get their FFXIV service spot on.

I'll update with any further developments.
#2 Sep 29 2010 at 6:43 AM Rating: Default
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Just curious, and not to be a **** or anything, cuz id totally like to see SE burn for some of the stupid **** hey do. But is this financially worth it?
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#3 Sep 29 2010 at 6:50 AM Rating: Good
The things from the ICO do not actually cost a thing. The only time it would cost is if I was actually looking to go to court for damages. I think right now, the only cost to me has been for the letter I sent SE by recorded post, which was less than £1.

I've not had to give up acres of my time either, so to be honest, it is worth it. It will hopefully help everyone else with issues on this kind of thing, be it in FFXI or FFXIV. Unless of course they now terminate service in the UK...
#4 Sep 29 2010 at 6:57 AM Rating: Good
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The only problem i see here, taking SE to court is equal to not being allowed to play anymore, ever, since it is sufficient reason for them to deny you further service.
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#5 Sep 29 2010 at 7:08 AM Rating: Excellent
Indeed, but then another argument on unfair contract terms could come into play, which would open up a whole new can of worms.

I think this could be ongoing for some time now, but hopefully what has happened will make this a lot easier for those in the UK in future. SE would hopefully apply the same levels of service to people of all nationalities.

Like I said though, I'm not looking at taking SE to court. I just want a positive outcome for myself and the good of the community. It's looking as if this will happen.
#6 Sep 29 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
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TaiStyle wrote:
Indeed, but then another argument on unfair contract terms could come into play, which would open up a whole new can of worms.

I think this could be ongoing for some time now, but hopefully what has happened will make this a lot easier for those in the UK in future. SE would hopefully apply the same levels of service to people of all nationalities.

Like I said though, I'm not looking at taking SE to court. I just want a positive outcome for myself and the good of the community. It's looking as if this will happen.


Might not be any relevance but I think SE recently changed their privacy policy. It could've included things to protect them from releasing non-personal data on their servers. I wouldn't put it past them changing the terms of services to further protect their corporate interest over data content they maintain. I think this is a little more into contract law but companies seem to try placing protection into their terms and contracts even if there are laws protecting people from them. This way they can say something like the person agreed to these terms so we can't be held responsible.

Unfair contract terms

It's like a person/company who writes a computer program when they know it could deliberately destroy a users HDD. To protect themselves they put a statement in the installation that says "by installing this software you agree not to hold us responsible for damage indirect or direct." The company can claim this defense from this but ultimately another authority and/or protection law might overrule it in some cases.

Was a good read I hope everyone can get past the "we protect ourselves."

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 12:56pm by Saricks
#7 Sep 29 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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Wonder Gem rdmcandie wrote:
Just curious, and not to be a **** or anything, cuz id totally like to see SE burn for some of the stupid sh*t hey do. But is this financially worth it?


Is for SE, breaking the law (Data Protection Act) could result in a fine of up to £500,000 (say $1m) for SE. My ISP along with BT and a law firm are currently looking down the barrel of a £500,000 fine which (hopefully) will put the law firm out of business (thanks to 4chan).

What it means for the end user is that the ICO had given a ruling, if SE are to break that ruling and not supply information as required, the ICO will jump down their throats and crush their ************ from the inside. It could also help people outside of the EU, SE may change their policies world-wide as it'll be easier for them to have a consistent policy rather than a per-EA policy.
#8Raelix, Posted: Sep 29 2010 at 4:52 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Or maybe they'll just IP-ban all of Europe then.
#9 Sep 29 2010 at 8:28 PM Rating: Good
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Cool I wasn't aware that something like that could be done so cheaply. Hopefully SE learns their lesson. I kinda would like to see them get hammered over this, might make their tight lip philosophy on bannings, get more loose.
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#10 Sep 29 2010 at 11:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Square Enix Ltd maintain that it was not received into their offices. Although I note that you had provided proof of delivery, Square Enix Ltd explained that they had moved offices around the time your request was sent. Your request was sent to their old offices, where they no longer had any staff based. They cannot therefore account for who signed for this letter. Additionally, Square Enix Ltd maintain that the email of the 23rd September 2009 in which a letter was acknowledged was sent in error.


So they lied to try to get out of it.


Quote:
an organisation must ensure that appropriate security measures are taken to protect personal data. This appears particularly significant where an organisation moves offices and cannot account for mail received and signed for at the old office.


And then the lie they told exploded in their face.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#11 Sep 30 2010 at 12:00 AM Rating: Good
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Saricks wrote:


Might not be any relevance but I think SE recently changed their privacy policy. It could've included things to protect them from releasing non-personal data on their servers. I wouldn't put it past them changing the terms of services to further protect their corporate interest over data content they maintain. I think this is a little more into contract law but companies seem to try placing protection into their terms and contracts even if there are laws protecting people from them. This way they can say something like the person agreed to these terms so we can't be held responsible.


Contracts cannot overrule law. They can write a clause into the TOS that says you waive any DPA protection by agreeing to it but it doesn't matter because a contract cannot override the DPA even if you agree to the contract.

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 3:01am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#12Kragorn, Posted: Sep 30 2010 at 2:40 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Because people have the right to download movies without paying for them and should be immune to lawsuits for doing so. :rolleyes:
#13 Sep 30 2010 at 2:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kragorn wrote:
Lexxuk wrote:
My ISP along with BT and a law firm are currently looking down the barrel of a £500,000 fine which (hopefully) will put the law firm out of business (thanks to 4chan).

Because people have the right to download movies without paying for them and should be immune to lawsuits for doing so. :rolleyes:

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 4:41am by Kragorn


Of course not, but ACS Law were indiscriminate and the only cases that were brought to court were uncontested cases. ACS Law obtained the IP addresses of people connected, so you had an 80 year old man with no interest in German **** and music being sent a threatening letter "give us £1,200 and we'll go away". He has an unsecured router, or his IP has been spoofed. He doesn't know better and doesn't want to become a criminal (even though he wouldn't) so pays up. His name is on the spreadsheet 3 times. He's already paid up, guess what ACS Law does? That's right, they send *another* letter to him demanding £1,200.

They also demand expenses for the cost of obtaining the information from the ISP, guess what? PlusNet never charged them for the information, yet they still demanded payment.

Besides, most "pirates" don't use P2P, they use Usenet or private FTP or other services where they can cap their download speed, P2P is used by opportunistic down-loaders who don't know any better.
#14 Sep 30 2010 at 3:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kragorn wrote:

Because people have the right to download movies without paying for them and should be immune to lawsuits for doing so. :rolleyes:


People should be protected from for-profit threats made by people with no burden of proof beyond what they themselves have decided. Why we feel that copyright law should somehow be distinct from other forms of law in this regard is mind-boggling to me. If I wrote you a letter saying that I had received a report that somebody who lived in your area had stolen my car and I would take you to court unless you paid me $1000, I doubt you'd think that was okay.
#15 Sep 30 2010 at 3:32 AM Rating: Decent
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In before:

Square Enix wrote:
We will be discontinuing online services in the United Kingdom as of October 31 2010. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.


Because I can totally see them doing this rather than complying. They are just stubborn like that.






Edited, Sep 30th 2010 6:34am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#16 Sep 30 2010 at 4:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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The law is the law and the UK is kinda funny about business - user relationship laws. SE needs a good legal ***** slapping to force them to get their **** straight. Worked wonders for MS. And I doubt they'll discontinue their service to the UK, there is far too much profit to be made from current and future markets. Instead some corporate head will just send a very nasty email to whomever is responsible in the customer service dept.
#17Raelix, Posted: Sep 30 2010 at 4:13 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You're late with this one.
#18 Sep 30 2010 at 4:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lobivopis wrote:
In before:

Square Enix wrote:
We will be discontinuing online services in the United Kingdom as of October 31 2010. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.


Because I can totally see them doing this rather than complying. They are just stubborn like that.


I read somewhere that all EU accounts are classed as in the UK, so banning the UK would ban all of Europe (plus, it's illegal for SE to prevent access in one EU state to a service available in the other, Apple got slapped down by the EU because of the way iTunes worked in the EU)
#19 Sep 30 2010 at 7:09 AM Rating: Excellent
Lobivopis, looking back at the original thread, you even said that they'd deny all knowledge of the letter a year ago.

I owe you a coke for your accurate prediction.

I'll update this when I get the statements through from SE, just with timescales. I do think though that they now need to tread very carefully in the UK, as from speaking to the caseworker at the ICO, she was pretty pissed with them.
#20 Sep 30 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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Lobivopis wrote:
Saricks wrote:


Might not be any relevance but I think SE recently changed their privacy policy. It could've included things to protect them from releasing non-personal data on their servers. I wouldn't put it past them changing the terms of services to further protect their corporate interest over data content they maintain. I think this is a little more into contract law but companies seem to try placing protection into their terms and contracts even if there are laws protecting people from them. This way they can say something like the person agreed to these terms so we can't be held responsible.


Contracts cannot overrule law. They can write a clause into the TOS that says you waive any DPA protection by agreeing to it but it doesn't matter because a contract cannot override the DPA even if you agree to the contract.


My original post stated this when I said "The company can claim this defense from this but ultimately another authority and/or protection law might overrule it in some cases.. Unfortunately, I don't see this in your partial quote of my post. I agree with your comment about laws overruling waivers. This is also true in America where contracts are invalidated if they break a law. I'm just surprised that you responded as though I didn't include the part where I basically said the same thing in my original comment.

I'm rating your reply up anyway for bringing attention to the fact that SE can't legally hide behind the user agreement waiver and cover their rears all the time.

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 2:21pm by Saricks
#21 Sep 30 2010 at 12:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Good job for pursuing this. SE needs to understand their stubborness isnt helping their business. We might love their games but if they keep this crap up they DO lose customers not to mention that customer protection laws are gonna catch up with them.
#22 Sep 30 2010 at 11:07 PM Rating: Excellent
Just a quick thanks really, to all those who have posted well dones here. To be honest, I was expecting quite the opposite.

I'll keep everyone updated with any further developments. That letter arrived with me on Wednesday, and I imagine SE would've been written to at the same time. It'll be interesting to see, given they need make no changes to the information being given, how long they take to write to me.

Sidenote, does anyone know of when they moved offices exactly? Are there any known documents out there? The only information I could find was that the move was completed in November 2009. My memory also recalls me making a phone call to the supposed old address at the time, and after asking questions being told "We're Square Enix I think you have the wrong number" -_-
#23 Oct 01 2010 at 1:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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obviously they lied and will say that they moved all activity from that address to one of their other addresses and later moved it back so they don't have to show proof that they actually relocated.
#24 Oct 01 2010 at 3:32 AM Rating: Decent
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If you think SE wouldn't pull out of the UK because they would loose money you thought wrong. Square Enix canceled plans to release FFXI in South Korea because of their laws regarding virtual property in MMORPGs.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#25 Oct 01 2010 at 4:01 AM Rating: Good
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1,246 posts
Let's see, drop support for the EU and lose out on billions.

OR

Reorganize their database, which will cost about £1000, and a bit of extra training.


Then again this is backward thinking Square Enix
#26 Oct 01 2010 at 4:02 AM Rating: Good
ditx wrote:
Let's see, drop support for the EU and lose out on billions.
I don't know about billions...
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