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SE - we took our fans for granted when we first made FFXIVFollow

#27 Feb 23 2013 at 2:19 PM Rating: Excellent
catwho wrote:
je355804 wrote:
Kachi wrote:
GW2 is a very Skinnerian game... it relies heavily on the incentive structures that are theorized to make games fun, and that's its greatest strength by a wide margin. Unfortunately, it does so in a totally unsustainable way, so it really only achieves that effect for a couple of months of play for the average players. Afterwards, the system breaks down completely. The gameplay is pretty good as well, but also a weak point in the long run.

So borrowing from GW2 as an inspiration could be a mixed bag. If they understand what makes it so initially fun and then build on where it failed, it could be great. They could just as easily fail in the same ways, though.


How many people do you honestly believe on a video game forum (albeit an MMO forum which more than likely has a slightly higher class of gamer) know who Skinner is?


You'd be surprised how many of us have more than a passing knowledge of video game mechanics.


Of course! Who doesn't know that guy:
http://listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/skinner3.gif
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#28 Feb 23 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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The limitation on Grand Companies and your alegiences to them is temproary. I wanted to clear that up.

Only Free Companies need to decide what national banner they have to be under on a permanent basis, and you can always switch by breaking up and reforming.

I'm not sure it will effect that path you take in your national questline (if there is such a thing) as far as going back an experience those starter quests for each nation. But you can experience grand company quests from any nation by rotating around grand companies.

Just keep in mind that you can't pick and chose gear from different grand companies. Changing Grand Companies turns in your previous company's exclusive gear.

That was my understanding of it when it was spoken about in the live letter before this one. (Or was it a dev post, I don't remember. It was a lenghty one.)
#29Poubelle, Posted: Feb 23 2013 at 3:21 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm surprised Yoshi-P & co. are still bashing 1.0 as a theme for their ARR campaign.
#30 Feb 23 2013 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
That's honestly such a minor difference that I really don't feel it's relevant. You can roll straight into the monster every time if you want to. The point being, it's not some revolutionary action mechanic. It's tantamount to a hotbar ability you can use while in motion. A 1 second immunity and speed bonus that everyone gets. That aside, it's about the same as any other modern MMO.


Maybe you don't feel that it is, but it is actually different, which was my point. I also never claimed it was some revolutionary mechanic. I was arguing against the parallels you were making, which are not actually as straight nor as parallel as you make them sound. I'm sure given the option, everyone would rather have a speed boost and 1s of immunity over a one direction/distance "roll", and that's because they are different, and one is actually better than the other.
#31 Feb 23 2013 at 3:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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He's not talking to us.

He's talking to the people who only see things like that from gaming news sites like IGN. He's talking to the people that don't visit fansite forums like Zam. He's talking to the people that aren't following the game closely. Probably the last those people heard about FFXIV was how badly 1.0 sucked, and he has to help them move beyond that before he can talk about why they should care about 2.0.
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#32 Feb 23 2013 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Probably the biggest obstacle Yoshi-P faces is convincing all the people who played, heard of, or read about FFXIV and the terrible state it was in when it launched, to actually come back and play ARR. People like to be told that they were right, and that's basically what the 1.0 bashing does, only this time its from the higher ups in SE, which I would suppose mean more to said players. Once he has their attention, then he can proceed to talk about all the changes.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2013 4:29pm by DevilFruit
#33 Feb 23 2013 at 5:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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DevilFruit wrote:
Probably the biggest obstacle Yoshi-P faces is convincing all the people who played, heard of, or read about FFXIV and the terrible state it was in when it launched, to actually come back and play ARR. People like to be told that they were right, and that's basically what the 1.0 bashing does, only this time its from the higher ups in SE, which I would suppose mean more to said players. Once he has their attention, then he can proceed to talk about all the changes.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2013 4:29pm by DevilFruit



It's also going to require some evangelizing from the 1.0 players to their friends. Not counting the friends I have who still play XI with me and the ones who tried 1.0, I can think of roughly a dozen MMO playing friends who'd be willing to give ARR a chance if I really, really sold it to them. They skipped over 1.0 because of all the bad press (honestly? I was in that group until spring 2012 when Statealchemist convinced me to give it a go).

If 2.0 doesn't deliver, I won't bug em about it. But if it's as awesomesauce as I'm hoping it is, I'm going to be preaching to them all so hard to give ARR a shot.
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#34 Feb 23 2013 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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It's important to differentiate this from other invulerability skills - like Blurred Frenzy. Blurred Frenzy gives me a full 2 seconds of invulerability while I attack, but I'm rooted in place which means someone who drops an AoE on me forces me to have to push an evade or other invulerability skills to try to get me out of the damage. Most dodge mechanics in video games come with invulerability frames and motions so I'm not sure what you're trying to play here saying it's not consitered a dodge.


I think you've jumped in late in the conversation and are missing my larger point: GW2 is not some revolutionary action-based combat. That's all I was saying. The dodging mechanic is the main action-mechanic, and it's nothing incredibly innovative. I haven't played either of them, but I would wager that Aion/Blade and Soul are at least equally action-oriented.

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Guild Wars 2 accomplished what it set out to do. I think the flack it's getting from mmo players used to traditional style mmos is that there is not a a notion of longterm incentives they are used to. It doesn't add in the timesinks and such. It's a solid game if you view it as it is.


I agree with you on the business end of things, and maybe I'm just being oldschool about this, but to me the objective of an MMO is to create a living, lasting world. Therefor, even though GW2 was a financial success, it was not a success at living up to the ideals of the MMO.

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I want my character in XIV to be an all-arounder as well. I don't understand why SE doesn't want to include what is arguably XI's single greatest strength into XIV.


I completely agree. That was one of my major criticisms of 1.0, and for that matter, GW2. They added so much fake choice to the game and ended up creating a lot of content that you could only experience if you made 9 different characters. Surprise, surprise, most people don't want to do that. Fortunately, it doesn't seem like they'll make that mistake twice.

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How many people do you honestly believe on a video game forum (albeit an MMO forum which more than likely has a slightly higher class of gamer) know who Skinner is?


I assume most people who took their Intro to Psych course in college have at least heard about Skinner, and I see blogs/posts drawing those parallels quite often. I don't always actively go out of my way to avoid using terms that other people won't know... they have the power of the internet at their fingertips.
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#35 Feb 23 2013 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:

So far only WoW has found that perfect balance that is evident in their sub base. XIV and Guild Wars 2 are two different models with two different strategies. Comparing the two is assinine. In my opinion XIV should aim for their longterm incentives to be less rigid than XI but more rigid than WoW for the greatest chance at success.


Well said

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#36 Feb 23 2013 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:



I can think of roughly a dozen one MMO playing friends


Where do you meet all these people that play MMOs irl?

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#37 Feb 23 2013 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
DevilFruit wrote:
Probably the biggest obstacle Yoshi-P faces is convincing all the people who played, heard of, or read about FFXIV and the terrible state it was in when it launched, to actually come back and play ARR. People like to be told that they were right, and that's basically what the 1.0 bashing does, only this time its from the higher ups in SE, which I would suppose mean more to said players. Once he has their attention, then he can proceed to talk about all the changes.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2013 4:29pm by DevilFruit



It's also going to require some evangelizing from the 1.0 players to their friends. Not counting the friends I have who still play XI with me and the ones who tried 1.0, I can think of roughly a dozen MMO playing friends who'd be willing to give ARR a chance if I really, really sold it to them. They skipped over 1.0 because of all the bad press (honestly? I was in that group until spring 2012 when Statealchemist convinced me to give it a go).

If 2.0 doesn't deliver, I won't bug em about it. But if it's as awesomesauce as I'm hoping it is, I'm going to be preaching to them all so hard to give ARR a shot.


Where is he anyways? I hope he comes back and tries ARR out. He did an excellent job keeping this database updated. I always came here for info until he stopped. After that I had to use other resources. :(
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#38 Feb 23 2013 at 6:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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I saw him around Alpha time, but haven't talked with him sense unfortunately.

I'm going to do my best to keep things updated, but it sounds like SE is going to provide all the information you need on their site, so ours will really only be for wiki/discussions on items on our DB. That's why I'm looking at getting other things that can distinguish us from other sites (add-on database among other ideas).
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#39 Feb 23 2013 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I saw him around Alpha time, but haven't talked with him sense unfortunately.

I'm going to do my best to keep things updated, but it sounds like SE is going to provide all the information you need on their site, so ours will really only be for wiki/discussions on items on our DB. That's why I'm looking at getting other things that can distinguish us from other sites (add-on database among other ideas).


I can't imagine how much of a job in of itself it will be just to keep everything updated after changing everything over. Being a hub for the ARR add-ons is a great idea. I hope SE lets you do it.
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#40 Feb 23 2013 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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Transmigration wrote:
catwho wrote:



I can think of roughly a dozen one MMO playing friends


Where do you meet all these people that play MMOs irl?



Anime club.
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#41 Feb 23 2013 at 9:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Kachi wrote:
It was really just standard hotbar combat with faster pacing and illusory dodging (you can't actually dodge, you just get a split second of invulnerability).

Don't mash me because I never played GW2, but isn't a player initiated 'split second of invulnerability' a dodge as far as game mechanics goes?


The direction that you dodge, and whether or not you actually escaped the range of the attack are irrelevant. Aside from that, it's really not much different from giving everyone a hotbar ability that grants a second of invulnerability. I wouldn't really call it action mechanics.

Again, I can't say for certain because I don't play it but...

Using TERA as an example because it's what I'm more familiar with, if a mob initiates an attack that swings at you several times as it moves in your direction, dodging anywhere but directly to the side or through the mob(if possible as some dodges circumvent unit collision for their active duration) will result in you taking damage. If a mob initiates an attack that does AoE in a small radius around it, you will take damage if you dodge in any direction toward it if the duration of the damage lasts longer than the active part of your evade. There are also many abilities that are used by mobs that are large enough that you can only avoid part of the duration of the damage as your evade will not allow you to completely escape the area of effect.

As with many games with this type of mechanic, you have periods of startup or windup where you are vulnerable, periods of activity where you would take no damage and a recovery period where you will again take damage without the ability to move, attack or dodge again if you have another similar mechanic. Perhaps GW2 is doinitwrong and again, I can't say for sure because I don't play it, but these mechanics generally work like that due to how combat varies between PvE and PvP. It works out really well in TERA.


Edited, Feb 23rd 2013 10:33pm by FilthMcNasty
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#42 Feb 24 2013 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I saw him around Alpha time, but haven't talked with him sense unfortunately.

I'm going to do my best to keep things updated, but it sounds like SE is going to provide all the information you need on their site, so ours will really only be for wiki/discussions on items on our DB. That's why I'm looking at getting other things that can distinguish us from other sites (add-on database among other ideas).

Other things?
Arr Facebook
Youtube Hub(User uploaded video journals)
Cutscene and soundtrack browser
Status page(Simulate lynx, xbox live, psn. Only users need to update status here manually)
FATE tracker/Forecast
Web Comic ARR themed
Fan art section

I think it would be cool for a fansite to explore the social/fun side of things. Especially when you said SE is covering most of the info stuff.
#43 Feb 24 2013 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
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#44 Feb 24 2013 at 11:09 AM Rating: Default
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catwho wrote:
I'm strongly attached to my character in XI because she's saved the world multiple times over, has been a citizen of every nation at least once, has leveled all the jobs, has gotten some "secret" cutscenes (completed a relic weapon) along the way...

I want my character in XIV to be an all-arounder as well. I don't understand why SE doesn't want to include what is arguably XI's single greatest strength into XIV.


Doesn't fit in with the mainstream MMO. That's all ARR is for after all.
#45 Feb 24 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Default
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and theyre not taking theyre fans for granted by making it more like WoW and less like what FFXI was? only difference between ARR and FFXIV is that itll actually be good, playable and not totally suck a opposed to being GREAT like it could be.. which is odd seeing as SE is one developer known for doing something others dont/havent instead of trying to emulate others (i.e SE came out with the FIRST mmorpg that didnt look like crap and had a story that played out like and was as good as a single player RPG)

now they wanna be like WoW in hope sto get more ppl buying
#46 Feb 24 2013 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
catwho wrote:
I'm strongly attached to my character in XI because she's saved the world multiple times over, has been a citizen of every nation at least once, has leveled all the jobs, has gotten some "secret" cutscenes (completed a relic weapon) along the way...

I want my character in XIV to be an all-arounder as well. I don't understand why SE doesn't want to include what is arguably XI's single greatest strength into XIV.


Doesn't fit in with the mainstream MMO. That's all ARR is for after all.


Theonehio wrote:
catwho wrote:
I'm strongly attached to my character in XI because she's saved the world multiple times over, has been a citizen of every nation at least once, has leveled all the jobs, has gotten some "secret" cutscenes (completed a relic weapon) along the way...

I want my character in XIV to be an all-arounder as well. I don't understand why SE doesn't want to include what is arguably XI's single greatest strength into XIV.


Doesn't fit in with the mainstream MMO. That's all ARR is for after all.


This isn't really a strength of the mainstream MMO, though. In the best case scenario, your players only feel the need to create one character. That fosters high attachment. Otherwise your players reach a point where they decide that maybe it's time to start another character, like they're supposed to, and they never quite get around to it. Or they do, and only play the new character a few times before quitting.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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