JPGames interview with Yoshida-sanFollow

Before my wife and I had kids, we would play quite a bit of Hot Shots golf 3 against each other on the PS2. It was fun and this thread is making start to feel nostalgic.

Ah, well I think you've understandably taken my comments out of context. Games are certainly good; game achievements are seldom meaningful. You'll have to remember that I'm quite a games fanatic--to me it goes without saying that games have value. BUT, most of that value is in providing leisure stimulation and relaxation. The tangential "developmental" aspects of gaming provide added value to that leisure experience which gives it societal merit. Game achievements, contrarily, frequently engage players with an illusory carrot that neither gives them enjoyment nor meaningful personal development. Ergo:

Games are good.
Achievements and trophies: meh.

And there are some achievements which are exceptions to the rule, but unfortunately in a way where their merit is most often undermined completely by the 99% of achievements which are absurd time-wasters or meaningless blue ribbons. They exist solely for you to want to have them, when you really shouldn't want them and don't really even want to earn them. Going back to the wealth analogy, it's like people who keep trying to earn more money and acquire more things--even though it neither makes them happier nor enriches them in any way. They're just grasping at illusory carrots. THAT is what I call utterly stupid.

Are you even trying to hear what I'm saying? It really seems like you're only hearing what you want to hear.

An arena can have value whereas the achievements have no value. It happens all the time. The achievements in video games are often awarded just for playing the game, for example. They're participant trophies. They're meaningless. Others reward you for completing inane tasks that don't necessarily require any meaningful application of skill. 90% of the time they don't indicate that you've reached any measure of skill or performed a task of any actual difficulty. There's no real accomplishment attached. It'd be like the Kindle releasing trophies for reading books. That's not why people read books. There are lots of good reasons to read books... enjoyment, to learn and grow as a person (wow, just like video games!). Earning a trophy for getting to page 168 isn't one of them.

You do understand that we're talking about things like gamerpoints, trophies, Xbox achievements, right? Not actual achievements.

I take the same position of any pro in the recreational domain. Pro-football quarterback? Good for you. You're the best football-thrower in all the land. What an accomplishment that is that helps nobody at all except for you and the people you share your inflated paycheck with. Thank you for giving our country something to watch while they eat Doritos and grow fat rather than doing something constructive (like playing football!) with their Sunday afternoon. You are truly a national treasure.

So yeah, video games are good. But no, you shouldn't feel any special recognition for playing them well. That's not the point of playing them. You're not doing a service to anyone. You're playing a game. Hell, at least the Iron Chef makes something that others can eat and enjoy. Are playing games a waste of time? NO. Everybody needs play time. It's an essential part of a healthy human life. But so are sleeping, eating and breathing, and you don't deserve any recognition for those, either (and you won't get any).

People should make games and people should play games. And I repeat: achievements, trophies and points... MEH!

Kachi, I don't think you get to decide what the point of playing video games is, as that would differ from person to person. You don't get to decide their importance, how they "should" be played, etc.

then again I couldn't really take you seriously after you downplayed being a pro quarterback as no big deal/no real accomplishment. I guess you think athletics are pointless or something. I get the sense that you're out of touch with reality.

and I get the sense that you have a very inflated opinion of yourself too.

stop overthinking the situation. some people find achievments/trophies, 100%ing the game, having little badges on their account to share what games they like/have played... some people like that stuff. and games are for fun after all.

We probably just aren't on the same page as far as what constitutes an achievement. When I think of achievements, I think of "The Perfect Akylios" - which is defeating the entire four stage, nearly thirty minute encounter without any of your 20 raid members dying. It's ******* hard, because there's loads of stuff to die to and it was once the hardest encounter in Rift. Not only does that achievement show that you have reached the highest level of content in question, but you and your team have mastered the mechanics as well. There's nothing wrong with being proud of having that level of coordination, teamwork, communication, and skill. Achievements allow you to remember things you have done in a neat and easy format, and it also allows others to see what your gaming level\interest is. I'd tend to agree that an achievement for reading up to page 168 is hardly worthy of notice, but knowing that someone has reached floor 100 of Nyzul, for example, wouldn't necessarily be a trivial accomplishment to report.

I just don't see why you have such disdain for achievements. It doesn't make sense to me.

From you? Priceless.

Newsflash: I'm not the least little bit interested in being taken seriously by you. You mean nothing to me, other than an occasional hardy laugh at your expense. Reflect upon the fact that NO ONE here takes you seriously. Then go somewhere and die quietly.



I don't have an inherent disdain for achievements, but I think they are an example of really lazy design at best. As I said, there are some exceptions to the rule-- "The Perfect Akylios" perhaps being one of them. Perhaps. It could also be an example of an accomplishment that seems to require great skill but also requires incredible luck, and therefor a great deal of repetition. That rather seems to lessen the accomplishment to me. If most achievements were indications of coordination, teamwork, communication and skill, then I would think much more highly of them, but still: Meh. And the primary reason is that they are a poor substitute for a real reward.

Good games reward players--it's one of the main things they do. Those rewards exist within the game for a reason--because it enhances the game. If your character gets a trophy that they can walk around and whack things with, that's cool! Even if they can just put it in their house, fine. Achievements are non-rewards. No one really cares that you got them, and you can't do anything with them. They're a consolation prize for lazy design. Now, I find no fault with giving someone an achievement that goes along with an actual award. I think that's probably even an ideal approach. It's just almost never the case.

My complaint isn't with achievements in theory, but achievements in practice. Bearing in mind that game design is a passion of mine (obsession is perhaps a better word), I'm inclined to be rather nitpicky about doing it well. It doesn't mean that they're evil, just that they're an example of bad design. When you get me on a rant, it's in the same way a car fanatic might tear into you if you suggest that the Chevy Cobalt is a good car (is it? I'm not a car fanatic).

I want games to be meaningful experiences. That means meaningful rewards for meaningful play. Achievements struggle to accomplish that in theory, and they miss the mark by miles in practice.

Just recently been playing Borderlands 2 and I would complete a part of the game and get an achievement. Didn't really mean anything to me. I never really paid much attention to trophies or achievements. I can see the side where others are for them, especially if they add some additional challenge to a game like some have already mentioned. Everyone is different and will like and play games differently.

I got a signed certificate or something like that in 7th grade from Michael Crichton for reading Jurassic Park. Not sure how he knew, guess my teacher at the time sent something in on my behalf. Pretty sure it got thrown away.

Actually, I love it.
It keeps the obsessive-compulsive nerds occupied while I enjoy the games.
Win/win.

My Ex did that >.>. She got that stupid skunk finally and probably rarely used it. However she did end up discovering a great way to make gold by selling some of the drake whelps for 1000-5000 gold. I stuck with my singing sunflower from Plants vs Zombies XD.

Also, I was planning on getting a Vita when I heard the possibility of a port of Monster Hunter 3rd, but when they chose to inexplicably continue to make games for Nintendo systems I gave up that idea. There is no possible way you could play that game with a Wiimote... You pretty much had to buy a Gamecube controller... GG Nintendo, GG.



Edited, Mar 20th 2013 4:24pm by DamienSScott