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#102 Apr 05 2013 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:

There is a infinitly higher chance of a lot more people having 11 Accounts in LOL, than having 11 accounts in WOW, WOW only counts Active subscriptions, in order for one person to have 11 Current active subscriptions, they need to get Vanilla wow, TBC, Wotlk, Cata and pandaria, that is 100+ dollars w/o counting the 14.99 for each, thats 150 a month, i dont think there are tons and tons of people willing to pay 150 a month on a MMO. As for the rest of the argument, as you have said yourself, this games have 12 Mil and a peak of 2m online, 2M and a peak of 350K online, XIV Peak of players online was 300-400 players...... They did not sold 660K units. nor have they ever had more than 100K players on their game


So you're saying my WoW account is only active if I have all the expansions? I don't think that word means what you think it means.

LoL Also only counts active players: Infograph

3 million ACTIVE concurrent players, playing at 1 time. That's not some fluff stat like when FFXI announced that 1 million accounts were finally created..


So:

70 million accounts
32 Million playing monthly (minimum once a month?)
12 Million Daily
3 million AVERAGE at any given time.

I think these are some really big apples and some OK-sized oranges.





Edited, Apr 5th 2013 9:50am by Louiscool
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#103 Apr 05 2013 at 9:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Question is though, how many of those LoL accounts have ever paid them any money?
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#104 Apr 05 2013 at 10:14 AM Rating: Default
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Catwho wrote:
Question is though, how many of those LoL accounts have ever paid them any money?


You'll have to look up those numbers for yourself, but it's actually a high %. Even if it was a low % who paid real money, they would be doing extremely well. but it's not a low %. Tons of people do buy skins, characters, etc. LoL makes an OBSCENE amount of money. It's very accessible, and people give it money because they like that experience and freedom. At the same time, you don't need to pay to get ahead.

There's no competitive edge for paying... people are just paying because they find the game fun.

Edited, Apr 5th 2013 12:18pm by Killua125
#105 Apr 05 2013 at 10:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
Question is though, how many of those LoL accounts have ever paid them any money?


You don't seem to understand something. It's not all about do they give you money, other players are content. More players is good for the players that do give you money, having deserted servers is a first class ticket to losing the customers you do have.

Also it's very easy as with games like Tera to make gamers indirect customers. I don't know if lol has a similar system but it probably does.
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#106 Apr 05 2013 at 10:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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other players are content


It's not this simple either, though.

Other players are only content if they're active, engaged players. This isn't necessarily a knock against F2P, but check out a game like Guild Wars 2, which has far more active players than FFXI, but sometimes feels like a much more dead game because nobody talks to each other.

In other words, you don't need a huge number of players to sustain a game for years. You just need an active AND engaged playerbase. That's more about game design than payment model, and SE is great at creating games that force you to party/communicate/team up with your fellow players.
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#107 Apr 05 2013 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's a valid question, though. LoL is obviously making enough money to keep going (since's it's approaching four years, a very long life for a F2P MMO), but having 12 million players if only 120,000 are paying for it isn't much of a bragging point.

A quick Google search seems to indicate that Riot has't released the numbers other than their active subscribers.
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#108 Apr 05 2013 at 11:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
It's a valid question, though. LoL is obviously making enough money to keep going (since's it's approaching four years, a very long life for a F2P MMO), but having 12 million players if only 120,000 are paying for it isn't much of a bragging point.

A quick Google search seems to indicate that Riot has't released the numbers other than their active subscribers.


It's also important to know how much money is needed in upkeep. Their costs are what? Design 1 new character every month or so, do tweaks and balances, and servers.

I would also think they make a good deal of money from the whole "Pro Gamer" angle, with the broadcasted matches being one of the most popular "E-Sport," globally, I can think of.

Complete tangent, but LoL does a great job of F2P, imo. There's nothing that can be bought with real money to make you a better player, yet you end up spending money anyway (or at least, I do...)
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#109 Apr 05 2013 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
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Servers for 5 million players at once can get pricey, though. If they did it right they have a very large VM cluster that's constantly spawning and killing off virtual machines as people log in and out (since players are grouped together in instanced servers. Actually today they'd probably have their instances through Amazon, so they're not paying for machine power they're not using...) The power bill alone for their data center is probably staggering. Their payroll is at least a million dollars a year at a conservative estimate (assuming a team of 10-20 competent people developing stuff and running the data center full time.)
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#110 Apr 05 2013 at 9:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
Ostia wrote:

There is a infinitly higher chance of a lot more people having 11 Accounts in LOL, than having 11 accounts in WOW, WOW only counts Active subscriptions, in order for one person to have 11 Current active subscriptions, they need to get Vanilla wow, TBC, Wotlk, Cata and pandaria, that is 100+ dollars w/o counting the 14.99 for each, thats 150 a month, i dont think there are tons and tons of people willing to pay 150 a month on a MMO. As for the rest of the argument, as you have said yourself, this games have 12 Mil and a peak of 2m online, 2M and a peak of 350K online, XIV Peak of players online was 300-400 players...... They did not sold 660K units. nor have they ever had more than 100K players on their game


So you're saying my WoW account is only active if I have all the expansions? I don't think that word means what you think it means.

LoL Also only counts active players: Infograph

3 million ACTIVE concurrent players, playing at 1 time. That's not some fluff stat like when FFXI announced that 1 million accounts were finally created..


So:

70 million accounts
32 Million playing monthly (minimum once a month?)
12 Million Daily
3 million AVERAGE at any given time.

I think these are some really big apples and some OK-sized oranges.

Edited, Apr 5th 2013 9:50am by Louiscool


No i am saying that there is a larger % of multiple accounts hold by one person in LOL than in WOW, since in WOW you need to pay for it, in LOL all you need is an email.
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#111 Apr 06 2013 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:

No i am saying that there is a larger % of multiple accounts hold by one person in LOL than in WOW, since in WOW you need to pay for it, in LOL all you need is an email.


I know what you're saying, and it's true. But I highly doubt people log into their 3 different smurf accounts daily. I have 1 and I use it once a month, maybe.
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#112 Apr 08 2013 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
There is a infinitly higher chance of a lot more people having 11 Accounts in LOL, than having 11 accounts in WOW, WOW only counts Active subscriptions, in order for one person to have 11 Current active subscriptions, they need to get Vanilla wow, TBC, Wotlk, Cata and pandaria, that is 100+ dollars w/o counting the 14.99 for each, thats 150 a month, i dont think there are tons and tons of people willing to pay 150 a month on a MMO. As for the rest of the argument, as you have said yourself, this games have 12 Mil and a peak of 2m online, 2M and a peak of 350K online, XIV Peak of players online was 300-400 players...... They did not sold 660K units. nor have they ever had more than 100K players on their game


You sure you aren't just making the number up from thin air? Because the Player Search during launch surely showed a lot more than 300-400 at any given time. Nice try though, as always.

Also LoL vs WoW, in WoW it's entirely possible to multi-account at once while in LoL it would be a shocker. It's like 4 v 4 on Starcraft with you playing all 4 PCs against 4 players, that must be on godlike level.

Edited, Apr 8th 2013 2:07am by Khornette
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#113 Apr 08 2013 at 6:54 AM Rating: Good
XIV at launch had about 4,000 players online during peak times. There were 18 servers, so at least 72000 players simultaneously playing. That dwindled fast, but launch had AT least 140,000 players if you consider eu, jp and na peak times. But yes, prior to mergers servers like Wutai weren't even breaking the 100 player mark.

Edited, Apr 8th 2013 8:57am by Montsegurnephcreep
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#114 Apr 08 2013 at 7:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
[quote=Ostia]There is a infinitly higher chance of a lot more people having 11 Accounts in LOL, than having 11 accounts in WOW, WOW only counts Active subscriptions, in order for one person to have 11 Current active subscriptions, they need to get Vanilla wow, TBC, Wotlk, Cata and pandaria, that is 100+ dollars w/o counting the 14.99 for each, thats 150 a month, i dont think there are tons and tons of people willing to pay 150 a month on a MMO. As for the rest of the argument, as you have said yourself, this games have 12 Mil and a peak of 2m online, 2M and a peak of 350K online, XIV Peak of players online was 300-400 players...... They did not sold 660K units. nor have they ever had more than 100K players on their game


You sure you aren't just making the number up from thin air? Because the Player Search during launch surely showed a lot more than 300-400 at any given time. Nice try though, as always.

Also LoL vs WoW, in WoW it's entirely possible to multi-account at once while in LoL it would be a shocker. It's like 4 v 4 on Starcraft with you playing all 4 PCs against 4 players, that must be on godlike level.

Why do you try ? You should know the end result by know Khornette! XIV had 2 servers that had 1000-1400 peak players at peak hours, every other one, was way less than that, unless by a LOT more you mean 450 and sutff like that.

........ You are confusing dual boxing with holding multiple accounts, nobody made an argument about some noob running 4 computers vs 4 people, it would be impossible.
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#115 Apr 08 2013 at 7:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Khornette wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Apples to oranges, LOL is a F2P game, all that you need to play is an Account. I personaly have a main account in LOL and a few smurf accounts to troll and just have fun w/o playing seriously, so do many other players. XIV was a P2P game turned into B2P then returned to P2P.

The 660K number is units that where Shipped not sold, the actual number of people who bought XIV is unknown, but after the first month, the japanese did a sensus, when there was still the option of getting a # of players online at your server, and the population numbers where below 50K. Now are this numbers official from SE ? No they are not, but is very likely they are true, since in the next update, the option to see how many players where online was taken off..... I mean if they had hundreds of thousands of players online.... Why take it off ?


Back when WoW claimed 11m+ subscription, their peak is slightly above 2m concurrent log-in.

Apples to oranges indeed. Well never mind that there are people who play 11 WoW accounts at once.

On a more interesting note, SW:TOR peak was 350,000. Back when they claimed they sold 2m+

I used LOL, because it is now THE game with highest concurrent players.

Edited, Apr 5th 2013 1:37am by Khornette


There is a infinitly higher chance of a lot more people having 11 Accounts in LOL, than having 11 accounts in WOW, WOW only counts Active subscriptions, in order for one person to have 11 Current active subscriptions, they need to get Vanilla wow, TBC, Wotlk, Cata and pandaria, that is 100+ dollars w/o counting the 14.99 for each, thats 150 a month, i dont think there are tons and tons of people willing to pay 150 a month on a MMO. As for the rest of the argument, as you have said yourself, this games have 12 Mil and a peak of 2m online, 2M and a peak of 350K online, XIV Peak of players online was 300-400 players...... They did not sold 660K units. nor have they ever had more than 100K players on their game


I don't enjoy telling people they're flat out wrong, but you're flat out wrong. XIV most likely did sell around 600k copies, eventually. It wasn't prior to launch, but it probably wasn't that far off. Only about 1/8th of a total population will log into the game concurrently (statistical average over many platforms), which all said and done, maths out to a bit over 4k per server, or what was actually seen. Numbers will be the highest the first week of launch even briefly exceeding what we'd expect to see, and then naturally die off within the first month for the next 4-6 months until it hits a steady number, depending on multiple factors (seen in other MMO's, seen here as well. Have to exclude WoW, XI, and EQ, outliers at this point in time and not useful for comparison due to how the market has substantially changed). Control for the surge and pop die-off over time, probably closer to 2-3k at launch per server (averaged, and also, seen), with them quickly dying off because of a lot of the issues we all know about. That number is far lower than expected because Open Beta was disasterous for XIV, killing off a large portion of the population before they even purchased a box, which makes all numbers we have to date questionable at best. A lot of these arguments are based off of launch numbers are are heavily deflated due to the poor state of 1.x launch (while wondering if those players will return is a very real concern and a good argument).

People buying and playing 11 accounts are statistical outliers, not the norm, and ignoring them doesn't influence the data we're looking at enough to warrant inclusion. You're straw manning this argument just to be right.

Catwho wrote:
It's a valid question, though. LoL is obviously making enough money to keep going (since's it's approaching four years, a very long life for a F2P MMO), but having 12 million players if only 120,000 are paying for it isn't much of a bragging point.

A quick Google search seems to indicate that Riot has't released the numbers other than their active subscribers.


It's dangerous classifying LoL as a MMO. Granted, there are many similarities between the two, but there are some substantial differences that are worth taking into account when looking at a DOTA/LoL/SC2 style MMO and others on the market. Comparing LoL to other MMO's will give you a lot of false conclusions.
#116 Apr 08 2013 at 8:03 AM Rating: Default
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Medieve wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Khornette wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Apples to oranges, LOL is a F2P game, all that you need to play is an Account. I personaly have a main account in LOL and a few smurf accounts to troll and just have fun w/o playing seriously, so do many other players. XIV was a P2P game turned into B2P then returned to P2P.

The 660K number is units that where Shipped not sold, the actual number of people who bought XIV is unknown, but after the first month, the japanese did a sensus, when there was still the option of getting a # of players online at your server, and the population numbers where below 50K. Now are this numbers official from SE ? No they are not, but is very likely they are true, since in the next update, the option to see how many players where online was taken off..... I mean if they had hundreds of thousands of players online.... Why take it off ?


Back when WoW claimed 11m+ subscription, their peak is slightly above 2m concurrent log-in.

Apples to oranges indeed. Well never mind that there are people who play 11 WoW accounts at once.

On a more interesting note, SW:TOR peak was 350,000. Back when they claimed they sold 2m+

I used LOL, because it is now THE game with highest concurrent players.

Edited, Apr 5th 2013 1:37am by Khornette


There is a infinitly higher chance of a lot more people having 11 Accounts in LOL, than having 11 accounts in WOW, WOW only counts Active subscriptions, in order for one person to have 11 Current active subscriptions, they need to get Vanilla wow, TBC, Wotlk, Cata and pandaria, that is 100+ dollars w/o counting the 14.99 for each, thats 150 a month, i dont think there are tons and tons of people willing to pay 150 a month on a MMO. As for the rest of the argument, as you have said yourself, this games have 12 Mil and a peak of 2m online, 2M and a peak of 350K online, XIV Peak of players online was 300-400 players...... They did not sold 660K units. nor have they ever had more than 100K players on their game


I don't enjoy telling people they're flat out wrong, but you're flat out wrong. XIV most likely did sell around 600k copies, eventually. It wasn't prior to launch, but it probably wasn't that far off. Only about 1/8th of a total population will log into the game concurrently (statistical average over many platforms), which all said and done, maths out to a bit over 4k per server, or what was actually seen. Numbers will be the highest the first week of launch even briefly exceeding what we'd expect to see, and then naturally die off within the first month for the next 4-6 months until it hits a steady number, depending on multiple factors (seen in other MMO's, seen here as well. Have to exclude WoW, XI, and EQ, outliers at this point in time and not useful for comparison due to how the market has substantially changed). Control for the surge and pop die-off over time, probably closer to 2-3k at launch per server (averaged, and also, seen), with them quickly dying off because of a lot of the issues we all know about. That number is far lower than expected because Open Beta was disasterous for XIV, killing off a large portion of the population before they even purchased a box, which makes all numbers we have to date questionable at best. A lot of these arguments are based off of launch numbers are are heavily deflated due to the poor state of 1.x launch (while wondering if those players will return is a very real concern and a good argument).

People buying and playing 11 accounts are statistical outliers, not the norm, and ignoring them doesn't influence the data we're looking at enough to warrant inclusion. You're straw manning this argument just to be right.

Catwho wrote:
It's a valid question, though. LoL is obviously making enough money to keep going (since's it's approaching four years, a very long life for a F2P MMO), but having 12 million players if only 120,000 are paying for it isn't much of a bragging point.

A quick Google search seems to indicate that Riot has't released the numbers other than their active subscribers.


It's dangerous classifying LoL as a MMO. Granted, there are many similarities between the two, but there are some substantial differences that are worth taking into account when looking at a DOTA/LoL/SC2 style MMO and others on the market. Comparing LoL to other MMO's will give you a lot of false conclusions.


Source ? Please tell me you have an official SE release of how many units they SOLD! Also i like you start your sentence with "I do not like telling people they are wrong, but you are wrong, because MOST LIKELY!" ljdsflajflafjadlfj;flaja!

You are funny dude
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#117 Apr 08 2013 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Please tell me you have an official SE release of how many units they SOLD!


You can't fudge a bunch of player numbers and then call someone out for doing it in the same breathe. Well, I guess you can, you're Ostia.. Smiley: laugh

What we know:

People played FFXIV.
People stopped playing it.
Over 100k players were included in Phase 1 of the beta.

What we can assume:

Most of the testers are legacy players, with 3 months of paid 1.0 subtime, minimum.

That's it. Build your arguments from there and stop making up numbers.
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#118 Apr 08 2013 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
Quote:
Please tell me you have an official SE release of how many units they SOLD!


You can't fudge a bunch of player numbers and then call someone out for doing it in the same breathe. Well, I guess you can, you're Ostia.. Smiley: laugh

What we know:

People played FFXIV.
People stopped playing it.
Over 100k players were included in Phase 1 of the beta.

What we can assume:

Most of the testers are legacy players, with 3 months of paid 1.0 subtime, minimum.

That's it. Build your arguments from there and stop making up numbers.


I have always said the 660K figure are units Shipped! Which they are :)

What we know Smiley: lol

A very few # of people played FFXIV
A larger # of few people stopped playing XIV
100K players where invited to beta phase 1.

What we can assume Smiley: lol

Most of the testers are no longer just legacy as of Phase 2
And that shoudl be it ?
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#119 Apr 08 2013 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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100K folks in phase 1 means 100K folks paid for at least three months of sub time in 2012.

I.E. at some point in 2012, at least 100,000 people played and paid for FFXIV. 100K subs is not great, but it's not as horrible as the "only 20K people played FFXIV 1.0" number I'd seen thrown around before.
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#120 Apr 08 2013 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
100K folks in phase 1 means 100K folks paid for at least three months of sub time in 2012.

I.E. at some point in 2012, at least 100,000 people played and paid for FFXIV. 100K subs is not great, but it's not as horrible as the "only 20K people played FFXIV 1.0" number I'd seen thrown around before.


Not all of the 100K invited into phase 1 where legacy :)
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#121 Apr 08 2013 at 10:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Really? I thought most of them were.

Edited, Apr 8th 2013 12:57pm by Teravibe
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#122 Apr 08 2013 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
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I hate the information age: most of the information is provided on a selective basis from unaccountable parties who have their own interests always in mind.
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#123 Apr 08 2013 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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We don't have hard and firm numbers about the alpha (never released) but we can assume that some of those folks were Legacy. *cough*

All alpha players, Legacy or not, were invited to Beta Phase I. All Legacy players were invited to Beta Phase I. We do not have information about the total number of non-Legacy folks in Phase I (that darn NDA), but we can reasonably assume that the number of people in alpha was far, far less than 100K, so at best there are a few thousand non Legacy alpha accounts rolled into that 100K.

Other than that, your guess is as good as mine. To be fair, those 100K beta players didn't necessarily have to play concurrently. 50K of them could have played Jan-March 2012 and quit. Then folks like me picked up in the summer when we heard 1.23 was actually making it playable. So, at any given time there could have been fewer than 30,000 players and yet still have 100K people qualified for Legacy in 2012. (Someone better at math who is currently not on barbituates can crunch the numbers for simultaneous overlapping subs for three months in a 10 month period.
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#124 Apr 08 2013 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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There were non-legacy, non-alpha players in beta phase 1, js.
#125 Apr 08 2013 at 11:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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This discussion with Ostia is pointless for a few reasons.

1) we really don't have hard data, that means Ostia doesn't either
2) even if we did, Ostia would claim that SE fabricated their sales numbers to fit his/her view of this game
3) Ostia is trolling you guys hard, and will for the forseeable future, even if this game launches to critical acclaim

TLDR: don't feed the Ostia people Smiley: thumbsup
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#126 Apr 08 2013 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
This discussion with Ostia is pointless for a few reasons.

1) we really don't have hard data, that means Ostia doesn't either
2) even if we did, Ostia would claim that SE fabricated their sales numbers to fit his/her view of this game
3) Ostia is trolling you guys hard, and will for the forseeable future, even if this game launches to critical acclaim

TLDR: don't feed the Ostia people Smiley: thumbsup


Wait a darn second here! Ostia, trolling!? Nonsense! ..Lol
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