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#127 Apr 24 2013 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Maybe you should play more games, before arguing with me ?


Are you trying to tell me I should play WoW? Why?

"Blizzard did it first?"

So, are you trying to tell me that Blizzard invented the story of a powerful being being sealed away, then unleashed to wreak havoc on the land?

Did Blizzard also invent swords?


Well besides playing more games, you should actually try and read what a person writes instead of just jumping into "WOW blablabla"

You should have played EQ :) Or Wow :)

Also stop it, my statement was correct, where the events on and end of an era, used by 2 other MMOS beforehand ? Yes they where. Period. Slice it as you like, it wont change the fact.
#128 Apr 24 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Excellent
But the two stories are not the same. The plots are very different.

I even looked, just to do my due diligence... and I'm right.

I do agree with you though that Final Fantasy didn't invent the wheel, just like WoW or EQ didn't. Stories of dragons and cataclysmic events have been told since the dawn of time. In reality, most of the stories we know all stem from a small number of archetypes.

I've also played quite a few games during the... uh... 23 years or so I've been gaming. Trust me, I've played through enough storylines to see the similarities between all of them.


ONE MORE EDIT!

The difference between a good storyteller and an average storyteller is the ability to take these stories that have been told countless times in so many ways, and make them stand out as being memorable among the masses.

This is where SE really shines when compared to any other gaming company, Blizzard included. I'd say BioWare is up there too.

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 9:46am by Thayos

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 9:47am by Thayos
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#129 Apr 24 2013 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
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972 posts
Ostia wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
SaitoMishima wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Maybe i am to spoiled when it comes to story, but the end of an era, was not even impressive to me, it was basically a copy of how death wing sundered azeroth but with FF lore Instead. Tho it looked cool i'll give it that, but i'll take great story telling over graphics any day :/

I agree. Story over graphics! Which is why the older FFs were so great! Graphics maybe lacking but story and music were some of the best imo


This seems odd to me since I have always defended Final Fantasy graphics. The stories were well written, the music masterfully composed, and I have always personally felt the graphics were top notch as well. The landscapes they created were spectacular and, for example in Final Fantasy Viii, as much as people put it down, they did an amazing graphical innovation when they would have real-time cg playing in the background while your character moved freely on the foreground amongst other polygonal rendered objects...almost like a stage with props sporting a green screen as the backdrop. The story in it was great and so was the music. What makes the series special for me, is a combination of great storytelling, moving music, and top notch visuals that deliver an overall gameplay unlike any other. Even though they have lost a bit of that over the years I am wildly optimistic that* A Realm Reborn will become A Franchise Reborn!

*for me


The problem with FFVIII was, that even tho it's graphics where leaps and bounds beyond what VII pulled, the story was kinda garbage, even tho i loved it's love story, and everything, i have to admit it was very out there in terms of "WTF is this sh*t real?" good graphics help, but they are not essential to tell a good story, lunar was not ahead of it's time, yet it told an awesome story, Suikoden II was way inferior to VIII or VII or IX, yet it's story was leaps and bounds better, VI should stand no chance againts XIII.... yet we both know which is the better game and has the better storyline :)

This entire generation has been garbage as far as RPGS are concerned to much graphics, horrible story telling and gameplay, the only 3 games that have been any good, are Xenoblade, Last Storie, and Tales of Vesperia.


And the series that bested the 3 games you listed even though they are extremely well done too.
Demon/Dark Souls series is the best rpg this gen period!
#130 Apr 24 2013 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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1,080 posts
Yoshi and his team basically brought FFXIV back from the grave, relatively quickly too. Whatever they've used, copied, re-invented from other games looks to be FinalFantasy-ized which I think is all good. Once we're all playing, those who need to leave can and will do so, because it's not for them. And that's to be expected with ANY game.
However...I think the real test down the road will be the first expansion. That's what will truly make FFXIV it's own game and different from the pack. So, I'm going to play this no matter what, for say at least a year? 18 mos? til then. That's long enough for me (for anybody) to decide either way.
That all said...I have the faith man!
#131 Apr 24 2013 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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6,899 posts
Ostia wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Maybe you should play more games, before arguing with me ?


Are you trying to tell me I should play WoW? Why?

"Blizzard did it first?"

So, are you trying to tell me that Blizzard invented the story of a powerful being being sealed away, then unleashed to wreak havoc on the land?

Did Blizzard also invent swords?


Well besides playing more games, you should actually try and read what a person writes instead of just jumping into "WOW blablabla"

You should have played EQ :) Or Wow :)

Also stop it, my statement was correct, where the events on and end of an era, used by 2 other MMOS beforehand ? Yes they where. Period. Slice it as you like, it wont change the fact.


Sorry to burst your bubble, Blizzard didn't invent world altering events, nor did Sony, nor did Square. There are tons of mythology stories about sleeping dragons that once awakened raze the land. Where do you think all these companies base a lot of their in-game lore? Acting like Blizzard or Sony or any other gaming company invented it is silly. They formulated an idea, and put it into a game.

Not to mention, as Thayos said, the stories of WoW and FFXIV are almost entirely different and unique. Yes, they share a common theme, but so do almost all rpg's. How many rpg's start off with a hero who has to save the world from a big baddie? How many revolve around a ragtag team of adventurer's who slowly unravel some wicked plot? How many have "end of days" like events in them? The answer is, almost all of them. It's how you tell the story that makes it unique and appealing. If you don't like the way FFXIV does it, that's fine. But don't pretend like you're some expert on who invented what in gaming, because it's pretty clear that you haven't got a clue.
#132 Apr 24 2013 at 12:39 PM Rating: Decent
Thayos wrote:
But the two stories are not the same. The plots are very different.

I even looked, just to do my due diligence... and I'm right.

I do agree with you though that Final Fantasy didn't invent the wheel, just like WoW or EQ didn't. Stories of dragons and cataclysmic events have been told since the dawn of time. In reality, most of the stories we know all stem from a small number of archetypes.

I've also played quite a few games during the... uh... 23 years or so I've been gaming. Trust me, I've played through enough storylines to see the similarities between all of them.


ONE MORE EDIT!

The difference between a good storyteller and an average storyteller is the ability to take these stories that have been told countless times in so many ways, and make them stand out as being memorable among the masses.

This is where SE really shines when compared to any other gaming company, Blizzard included. I'd say BioWare is up there too.

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 9:46am by Thayos

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 9:47am by Thayos


Not the same huh.... You mean one is called death wing and the other one is called Bahamut ? Both where ancient terrors that where defeated at a point in the past of the game world by ancient civilizations, one was sealed in a meteor, the other one sealed himself in order to recover. Both are Dragons, both are actually the big bad Dragon in their respective games, both where used as the reason for the in-game change of the world, both came out, burned stuff and went home, both have controlled a major antagonist only to in the end reveal themselves as the main baddie.

Yes totally different Stories! Also please do not make me laugh, that is where SE Shines ? You mean Squaresoft ? Because SE has made a mockery of what Squaresoft was able to pull Off.
#133 Apr 24 2013 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
sandpark wrote:
Ostia wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
SaitoMishima wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Maybe i am to spoiled when it comes to story, but the end of an era, was not even impressive to me, it was basically a copy of how death wing sundered azeroth but with FF lore Instead. Tho it looked cool i'll give it that, but i'll take great story telling over graphics any day :/

I agree. Story over graphics! Which is why the older FFs were so great! Graphics maybe lacking but story and music were some of the best imo


This seems odd to me since I have always defended Final Fantasy graphics. The stories were well written, the music masterfully composed, and I have always personally felt the graphics were top notch as well. The landscapes they created were spectacular and, for example in Final Fantasy Viii, as much as people put it down, they did an amazing graphical innovation when they would have real-time cg playing in the background while your character moved freely on the foreground amongst other polygonal rendered objects...almost like a stage with props sporting a green screen as the backdrop. The story in it was great and so was the music. What makes the series special for me, is a combination of great storytelling, moving music, and top notch visuals that deliver an overall gameplay unlike any other. Even though they have lost a bit of that over the years I am wildly optimistic that* A Realm Reborn will become A Franchise Reborn!

*for me


The problem with FFVIII was, that even tho it's graphics where leaps and bounds beyond what VII pulled, the story was kinda garbage, even tho i loved it's love story, and everything, i have to admit it was very out there in terms of "WTF is this sh*t real?" good graphics help, but they are not essential to tell a good story, lunar was not ahead of it's time, yet it told an awesome story, Suikoden II was way inferior to VIII or VII or IX, yet it's story was leaps and bounds better, VI should stand no chance againts XIII.... yet we both know which is the better game and has the better storyline :)

This entire generation has been garbage as far as RPGS are concerned to much graphics, horrible story telling and gameplay, the only 3 games that have been any good, are Xenoblade, Last Storie, and Tales of Vesperia.


And the series that bested the 3 games you listed even though they are extremely well done too.
Demon/Dark Souls series is the best rpg this gen period!


Bested how ? Demon souls/dark souls have not sold more than any of those named titles (Well maybe more than last storie) Story wise, Tales of vasperia and xenoblade are legues ahead of demon/dark souls, now if you are talking about gameplay, yeah i would say so, but nobody is talking about gameplay.
#134 Apr 24 2013 at 12:53 PM Rating: Default
BartelX wrote:
Sorry to burst your bubble, Blizzard didn't invent world altering events, nor did Sony, nor did Square. There are tons of mythology stories about sleeping dragons that once awakened raze the land. Where do you think all these companies base a lot of their in-game lore? Acting like Blizzard or Sony or any other gaming company invented it is silly. They formulated an idea, and put it into a game.


Probably, but it's very possible that it was WoW that prompted them to do it. Yoshi-P has said himself that ARR is just supposed to be World of Warcraft with Final Fantasy stuff in it.
#135 Apr 24 2013 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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6,899 posts
As we've been over this before, I'm not going to go into another huge debate. I've never seen anything posted that says that, and until you can show me a link stating otherwise, that it just what you have inferred from him. Inference =/= fact.

Also, and granted its only been a few short hours that the media has been allowed to post info on the beta, but in that time I've seen nothing stating the game is a WoW clone re-skinned like you seem to think. There have been several articles posted, not all of them are even big fans of FFXIV, and there is almost no comparison to WoW other than that the game has successfully incorporated aspects of other mmo's to enhance the experience.

Ostia wrote:
Yes totally different Stories! Also please do not make me laugh, that is where SE Shines ? You mean Squaresoft ? Because SE has made a mockery of what Squaresoft was able to pull Off.


I don't think anyone is going to argue that Squaresoft has a better track record than SE, but from my perspective SE still does a considerably better job than Blizzard. I played FFXI through Abyssea and I played WoW through Cataclysm, and in my experience the stories don't even compare. FFXI had a deep, involved storyline that got more and more epic the farther you went. WoW... I can barely even remember the story in WoW. To me it was more like 80 levels of grinding quests and doing random dungeons, which was plenty fun for what it was. If there was a centralized story arch, it became so convoluted in the rest of the quests that I couldn't even pick it out.

Even 1.0 had a more fleshed out story than WoW in my opinion. That's not to say WoW sucked or anything, I actually liked the game for the most part, and think it was an innovator in a lot of ways. The storyline however, was not one of them for me.

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 3:17pm by BartelX
#136 Apr 24 2013 at 1:11 PM Rating: Default
http://i.imgur.com/cjFSmgz.png

Yoshi-P has stated multiple times that he just wanted to create World of Warcraft with Final Fantasy in it.

I wouldn't be surprised if he used some World of Warcraft lore.

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 3:11pm by Killua125
#137 Apr 24 2013 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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6,899 posts
Quote:
However, when the original FFXIV was in development, the goal of the project was simply to make a game that was different from Final Fantasy XI. Yoshida feels that the creators didn't recognize that the global standard of MMOs had been significantly raised in recent years. He would have suggested a different path for the game—one that mirrored FFXI's own creation. "I think it would've been good if they tried seeing what happened if they turned World of Warcraft into Final Fantasy. So, because they tried only to make something that was 'different from FFXI,' they ended up with not much of anything."


It's amazing how you can take something out of context and make it sound how you want it to. The funny part is, that quote proves absolutely nothing. He said it would have been good if the old developer's tried making a WoW into a FF game, much like how FFXI was modelled on EQ. Yet you don't hear people whining that FFXI was an EQ clone. It doesn't say he made ARR into WoW with Final Fantasy. You just took it out of context to make it sound like that. In fact, later in the article:

Quote:
What was important in his eyes is how early RPGs borrowed the best elements from and influenced each other. That's how the genre advanced and made new games. "Unless you are a genius, you cannot make something completely new from nothing."


Can everyone agree that he's taken elements from WoW and put them into FFXIV? Absolutely. Does that make it a WoW clone? Absolutely not. Play the game, make an informed decision instead of reading into what a few quotes means, especially when you pull the quotes out of context to fit your agenda.
#138 Apr 24 2013 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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412 posts
Lol, Killua sounds like an MMO politician.
#139 Apr 24 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
LOL, please find a link where Yoshi-P says exactly that.

In the meantime, Yoshi-P never said that. What he said is he was inspired by several modern MMOs including WoW.

But by all means, please, search for that link until you find it!

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 1:42pm by Thayos
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#140 Apr 24 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
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1,310 posts
Here's what Yoshida really said:

Quote:
Yoshida feels that the creators didn't recognize that the global standard of MMOs had been significantly raised in recent years. He would have suggested a different path for the game—one that mirrored FFXI's own creation. "I think it would've been good if they tried seeing what happened if they turned World of Warcraft into Final Fantasy. So, because they tried only to make something that was 'different from FFXI,' they ended up with not much of anything."

"They should have said, 'Hey you, go play WoW for a year [for inspiration].'"

Yoshida then talked at some length about the origins and development of MMORPGs. How they developed from tabletop RPGs into games like Ultima and Wizardy—before moving to the online world. What was important in his eyes is how early RPGs borrowed the best elements from and influenced each other. That's how the genre advanced and made new games. "Unless you are a genius, you cannot make something completely new from nothing."


http://kotaku.com/5963155/new-final-fantasy-xiv-director-talks-about-what-went-wrong-with-the-original
#141 Apr 24 2013 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
When the battle changes came, someone in my LS described them as "a bad marriage between the WoW and FFXI battle system." I don't think I would call it a bad marriage, but I could see that. I also remember Yoshi-P's 1.xx having a lot of forum talk about the WoWification of the game. So do we really need a quote when he have his track record?

Also there isn't anything wrong with borrowing and building upon, that's how post industrialization works.
I think it benefits to point out differences. He talks a lot about features that are the norm in MMORPGs. Imagine if you were two or four months from the possible launch of the next iphone and all they were saying was it makes phone calls and has a screen (that you can touch!).

Yeah that stuff does need to get mentioned but it sort of glossed over.

EDIT: for better framing, imagine Apple was doing that for a phone 700,000ish people bought two and half years ago

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 5:50pm by apapertiger
#142 Apr 24 2013 at 3:51 PM Rating: Excellent
I still see nothing remotely close to "WoW with Final Fantasy in it."

What I do see is exactly what I said above... that Yoshi-P was inspired by WoW (and other games, which isn't in that select quote) and required the development team at Square Enix to attune itself with what's considered "industry standard" today.

WoW fans need to get over themselves. The only reason why so many people still play WoW is that so many people still play WoW... at this point, it's like the circle-jerk of MMORPGs.
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#143 Apr 24 2013 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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9,997 posts
Thayos wrote:
The only reason why so many people still play WoW is that so many people still play WoW... at this point, it's like the circle-jerk of MMORPGs.


Smiley: laugh
Have tried and failed to say it better myself.
Smiley: laughSmiley: laughSmiley: laugh
#144 Apr 24 2013 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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972 posts
Ostia wrote:


Bested how ? Demon souls/dark souls have not sold more than any of those named titles (Well maybe more than last storie) Story wise, Tales of vasperia and xenoblade are legues ahead of demon/dark souls, now if you are talking about gameplay, yeah i would say so, but nobody is talking about gameplay.

Dark Souls sold about 2.3mil
http://www.gamespot.com/news/dark-souls-crosses-23-million-sales-6406891

Xeno sold about 830k
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/42966/xenoblade-chronicles/

Vesperia sold about 1 million total.
360
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/18652/tales-of-vesperia/

ps3
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/33204/tales-of-vesperia/

Last Story sold about 510k
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/42967/the-last-story/

I know VG is not 100% reliable nor does this make the souls series better in the eyes of every gamer.
One might say that the WII titles sold less due to piracy.
One might say that Dark Souls sold more because it released on more systems. I'm not sure if this 2.3 million is for every platform or what.

All I'm saying is that in my opinion the souls series was the best rpg franchise this generation. And I'm posting some sales figures.
#145 Apr 24 2013 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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6,899 posts
FATEs
Levequests
Hamlet Defense
Guildhests
Grand Companies
Chocobo Fighting Companions
Combos
Party-based, tiered limit breaks
Unique FF-storyline
FF-based elements
Buildable Company Airships (not positive if this was actually said or just something I fantasized about so much I believe it to be true)

These were just the things I could think of off the top of my head that have been mentioned that differ from WoW. So far, only 20% of the content of the game has even been released in beta according to Yoshi-P himself. So there's 80% more stuff to flesh out the above ideas, as well as introduce new elements. At least give the game a chance for yourself before deciding what it is or isn't.


Edited, Apr 24th 2013 6:22pm by BartelX
#146 Apr 24 2013 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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972 posts
BartelX wrote:
FATEs
Levequests
Hamlet Defense
Guildhests
Grand Companies
Chocobo Fighting Companions
Combos
Party-based, tiered limit breaks
Unique FF-storyline
FF-based elements
Buildable Company Airships (not positive if this was actually said or just something I fantasized about so much I believe it to be true)

These were just the things I could think of off the top of my head that have been mentioned that differ from WoW. So far, only 20% of the content of the game has even been released in beta according to Yoshi-P himself. So there's 80% more stuff to flesh out the above ideas, as well as introduce new elements. At least give the game a chance for yourself before deciding what it is or isn't.


Edited, Apr 24th 2013 6:22pm by BartelX

I do not know why you are trying to convince the skeptics that XIV is different. Every game borrows **** from other games. We could type till our fingers break off. Yet the only thing that will convince or confirm their beliefs is a hands on. People try to throw that this game in a new skin comment. But I say that even if 90% of things were exactly the same.

It's the universe that makes games different where it really matters most in feeling different, if you seperate themepark from sandbox.
Difficulty means something different to each individual. Opinions are as*holes and everyone has both.
#147 Apr 24 2013 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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6,899 posts
sandbox wrote:
I do not know why you are trying to convince the skeptics that XIV is different.


I'm not trying to convince anyone. I understand that a lot of people's opinions won't be swayed one way or the other. But really, it's a forum, it's almost 7 pm, and I'm still at work. It gives me something to do to pass the time.

Edited, Apr 24th 2013 6:36pm by BartelX
#148 Apr 24 2013 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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972 posts
BartelX wrote:
[quote=sandboxI do not know why you are trying to convince the skeptics that XIV is different.


I'm not trying to convince anyone. I understand that a lot of people's opinions won't be swayed one way or the other. But really, it's a forum, it's almost 7 pm and I'm still at work. It gives me something to do to pass the time.[/quote]
Ah! That's something I can relate to. :)
#149 Apr 24 2013 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
[quote=BartelX]FATEs
Levequests
Hamlet Defense
Guildhests
Grand Companies
Chocobo Fighting Companions
Combos
Party-based, tiered limit breaks
Unique FF-storyline
FF-based elements
Buildable Company Airships (not positive if this was actually said or just something I fantasized about so much I believe it to be true)

Except for building the airships I think all of these are in WoW but with different names... and limit breaks. Don't hold me to that though since I haven't touched WoW in like 5 years.
#150 Apr 24 2013 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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863 posts
I don't really like the fact that he mentioned relics will be easier to obtain in ARR. I mean, we already saw quite a lot of people run around with relic weapons in 1.0, make it even more common and the awe and mystery dissapears completely.
#151 Apr 24 2013 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
****
6,899 posts
apapertiger wrote:
[quote=BartelX]FATEs
Levequests
Hamlet Defense
Guildhests
Grand Companies
Chocobo Fighting Companions
Combos
Party-based, tiered limit breaks
Unique FF-storyline
FF-based elements
Buildable Company Airships (not positive if this was actually said or just something I fantasized about so much I believe it to be true)

Except for building the airships I think all of these are in WoW but with different names... and limit breaks. Don't hold me to that though since I haven't touched WoW in like 5 years.


Now you're just being facetious... at least I hope. If not, I don't remember anything like these in WoW when I played.
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