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#152 Jun 02 2013 at 9:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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IT'S THE SAME TYPE OF GAMEPLAY. Lawd.

Smiley: rolleyes
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#153 Jun 02 2013 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
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This thread is pure gold Smiley: lol
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#154 Jun 02 2013 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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I feel like I'm trying to explain evolution to people who never took biology.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#155 Jun 02 2013 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
IT'S THE SAME TYPE OF GAMEPLAY. Lawd.

Smiley: rolleyes


No need to caps at me Smiley: eek

It's not the same thing at all, otherwise you've been wasting a helluvalota time arguing with people about the "same type of gameplay."



Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 11:56am by Parathyroid
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#156 Jun 02 2013 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
I feel like I'm trying to explain evolution to people who never took biology.


And you think I'm the one who can't keep insults out of my posts. Smiley: lol Way to disrespect an entire forum because they don't agree with you.

Oh but I know, it's not an insult, just a "misunderstanding". Smiley: rolleyes
#157 Jun 02 2013 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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See now you're getting disparaging... here's the real problem. You cannot accept that people have different thoughts or ideas than yours and when your longwinded arguments don't work out for you, you resort to demeaning remarks.

Not cool brotha.


Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 12:00pm by Parathyroid

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 1:09pm by Parathyroid
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I probably understood about 1/10th of what was discussed in this thread and I'm sober as a rope. (I don't know if that's actually a saying or not). -Kierk
#158 Jun 02 2013 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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This thread has way too many quotes! >_<
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#159 Jun 02 2013 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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1: I didn't rate you down. I have nothing against you.
2: I can concede that my last comment sounded condescending, but come on guys. I've been saying some of these things very explicitly for a while now, and there's been very little effort to understand my point of view and a lot of effort to argue it. And I'm very familiar with that feeling--from talking to people who don't understand evolution. So I sincerely apologize if it came across as condescending, but I was just saying that that's how you're making me feel.

Parathyroid wrote:
Kachi wrote:
IT'S THE SAME TYPE OF GAMEPLAY. Lawd.

Smiley: rolleyes


No need to caps at me Smiley: eek

It's not the same thing at all, otherwise you've been wasting a helluvalota time arguing with people about the "same type of gameplay."



Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 11:56am by Parathyroid


As a matter of fact, I have been. I even said that you probably wouldn't even notice a difference in the gameplay. It's stuff that's invisible to the players. It's numbers on the backend. The only gameplay difference is that you can use more types of party configurations viably. If that automatically sounds like a kind of game you wouldn't want to play, then, fine, fair enough, you got me.

Final thought: most Final Fantasy titles do not require a dedicated healer for the party to succeed.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#160 Jun 02 2013 at 10:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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This idea that Healers should do always poorly in PVP is just ludicrous, history in PvP has shown that aside from pure ganking, verses combat has always favored the defensive or ranged. White Mage is both. The kits are separate, but PvP and PvE kits are similar, white mage would kite the crap out of DDs with statistical effect like bind and weight. And the DD would, in effect, rely on ranged skills and gap closers to win.


Although you make a great point, this is somewhat different than what Kachi and I were discussing. This kind of strategic kite fest (crowd control) isn't exactly what either type of job was intended for... jobs like red mage, bard, thief or blm can do it better. What we're talking about is if a whm and a DD are literally going toe-to-toe, should the whm have a 50-percent chance of winning? Should the whm's cures/defensive spells be so potent (on the individual caster) that a DD with equally tiered gear can't mow him down?

Your quote above, to me, is evidence that none of us really expects a whm to survive toe-to-toe against a DD, because the job simply isn't designed to take lots of damage like that. We all know that a whm's best chance to survive is either to run, or be protected by his party members.

Quote:
Final thought: most Final Fantasy titles do not require a dedicated healer for the party to succeed.


Although I've always used a dedicated healer, I have beaten most single-player Final Fantasy titles without the use of a dedicated tank, so I'm sure what you say above is true. However, with the exception of Final Fantasy X-2, I've never beaten a Final Fantasy game in which I didn't have a consistent strategy involving all of my party members and their primary roles.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 9:31am by Thayos
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#161 Jun 02 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
As a matter of fact, I have been. I even said that you probably wouldn't even notice a difference in the gameplay. It's stuff that's invisible to the players. It's numbers on the backend.


I'm not trying to open a whole new can of worms, and I'm assuming you'll just ignore my post anyways, but what we're all arguing is that you WILL notice a difference in gameplay. What I've been arguing from the start is that you aren't just going to tweak a couple numbers and POOF! All jobs are balanced and nothing else changes! That's just not going to work, due to the variables of an ever changing game, and also due to the fact that players can and will always find a way to exploit things to ruin the balance you are trying to create. It would be a constant struggle of trying to keep everything in check to the point where, I and a lot of others think that the gameplay would have to be dumbed down in order to keep everything perfectly balanced.

I personally think this because every time you are adding in new variables, be it to classes or to PvE encounters, you are messing up your balance and forced to attempt to rebalance it. The overwhelming amount of development time that would be required to constantly balance this doesn't make sense, so I think most companies would just start simplifying things, removing or just not adding new variables, and turning the gameplay into a generic, boring slugfest where everyone is as good as everyone else and no one really excels at anything. Perhaps I'm wrong, but unless we see it in action, we won't know.

I know you hate using GW2 as an example, but it's actually a very good example of this, because there still ARE tank roles, DD roles, and healing roles in group play. The problem is, they've been so watered down and monotinized in order to balance the classes, that they feel very generic and boring. This is I think the problem you'd run into in the model you're trying to explain.
#162 Jun 02 2013 at 11:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
1: I didn't rate you down. I have nothing against you.
2: I can concede that my last comment sounded condescending, but come on guys. I've been saying some of these things very explicitly for a while now, and there's been very little effort to understand my point of view and a lot of effort to argue it. And I'm very familiar with that feeling--from talking to people who don't understand evolution. So I sincerely apologize if it came across as condescending, but I was just saying that that's how you're making me feel.

Parathyroid wrote:
Kachi wrote:
IT'S THE SAME TYPE OF GAMEPLAY. Lawd.

Smiley: rolleyes


No need to caps at me Smiley: eek

It's not the same thing at all, otherwise you've been wasting a helluvalota time arguing with people about the "same type of gameplay."



Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 11:56am by Parathyroid


As a matter of fact, I have been. I even said that you probably wouldn't even notice a difference in the gameplay. It's stuff that's invisible to the players. It's numbers on the backend. The only gameplay difference is that you can use more types of party configurations viably. If that automatically sounds like a kind of game you wouldn't want to play, then, fine, fair enough, you got me.

Final thought: most Final Fantasy titles do not require a dedicated healer for the party to succeed.


In that case if that is LITERALLY what you are arguing then you are exactly right... it IS like you're trying to teach evolution to those who don't understand biology.

How can you make an argument regarding some technical "backend" issue which we have no intimate knowledge of, which might I add, I think I've read you're a programmer... therefore you do have the technical knowledge, to people who don't share the same technical knowledge as you?


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#163 Jun 02 2013 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
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I feel like this is the kinda argument where there is no winners. Some games do things different than others why cant we just play a game we enjoy regardless of nit picking about is a whm can beat a DD.. who cares.. I really dont.. wanna know why? Because this game has NO open world pvp.. if i play a healer in THIS game and do 5vs5 its a team effort, and anyone who has played arenas in wow knows that some teams zerg with all DD and some play it safe with healer or two.

There is know right or wrong just ideas and arguments.. cant we get back to having real disscussions about FFXIV ARR and not this bickering over somthings pointless because this is the way the game is and will be it has been stated by yoshi .. no open world pvp means no need to balance around 1v1..
#164 Jun 02 2013 at 11:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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silverhope wrote:
I feel like this is the kinda argument where there is no winners. Some games do things different than others why cant we just play a game we enjoy regardless of nit picking about is a whm can beat a DD.. who cares.. I really dont.. wanna know why? Because this game has NO open world pvp.. if i play a healer in THIS game and do 5vs5 its a team effort, and anyone who has played arenas in wow knows that some teams zerg with all DD and some play it safe with healer or two.

There is know right or wrong just ideas and arguments.. cant we get back to having real disscussions about FFXIV ARR and not this bickering over somthings pointless because this is the way the game is and will be it has been stated by yoshi .. no open world pvp means no need to balance around 1v1..


Which internet forums do have winners? I'm pretty sure if someone could consistently win over others opinions on an internet forum, they would be immediately recruited as the nation's top international conflict diplomat...
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I probably understood about 1/10th of what was discussed in this thread and I'm sober as a rope. (I don't know if that's actually a saying or not). -Kierk
#165 Jun 02 2013 at 12:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Parathyroid wrote:

Which internet forums do have winners? I'm pretty sure if someone could consistently win over others opinions on an internet forum, they would be immediately recruited as the nation's top international conflict diplomat...


heh ur right poor words on my part i just ment no one will agree
#166 Jun 02 2013 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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silverhope wrote:
Parathyroid wrote:

Which internet forums do have winners? I'm pretty sure if someone could consistently win over others opinions on an internet forum, they would be immediately recruited as the nation's top international conflict diplomat...


heh ur right poor words on my part i just ment no one will agree



Ahhh you're right (see you just swayed my opinion, the government is now watching you Smiley: lol)
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I probably understood about 1/10th of what was discussed in this thread and I'm sober as a rope. (I don't know if that's actually a saying or not). -Kierk
#167 Jun 02 2013 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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Well what kachi says is not that hard to understand, the problem is people are confusing roles of the trinity with how a class should work, they also cannot let their vision of how a class traditionally operates go for some unknown reason, i have actually never understood why a caster has to be this weak paper wearing guy, and the excuse that "Well it's Final Fantasy" is a cop out at best, Sephiroth was expert spell caster, who was a sword master also, in FFVI characters could wield swords as good as they casted spells etc etc.

Should a white mage beat a warrior ? Not always, but he should be able to pose a threat. Anyways carry on Smiley: lol You guys are hilarious
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#168 Jun 02 2013 at 1:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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roles of the trinity


Kind of unrelated, but why is the "trinity" term used in connection with Final Fantasy, when really, there are five over-arching categories of jobs, as well as some jobs that are hybrids of more than one category?

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 12:18pm by Thayos
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#169 Jun 02 2013 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Well what kachi says is not that hard to understand, the problem is people are confusing roles of the trinity with how a class should work, they also cannot let their vision of how a class traditionally operates go for some unknown reason, i have actually never understood why a caster has to be this weak paper wearing guy, and the excuse that "Well it's Final Fantasy" is a cop out at best, Sephiroth was expert spell caster, who was a sword master also, in FFVI characters could wield swords as good as they casted spells etc etc.

Should a white mage beat a warrior ? Not always, but he should be able to pose a threat. Anyways carry on Smiley: lol You guys are hilarious



How is an individuals personal -Opinion- a cop out?

You can't understand why a WHM should be weaker than a Dragoon? Let's review... A WHM wears a robe, possibly even a cool rope to tie their robe, at best they have a piece of jewelry around their neck... their main source of offense is curing themselves. Ohhh they may also get an awesome wooden weapon that resembles that of a kitchen appliance.

A DRG has a dragon with them... yes a mother funking dragon, if you've seen game of thrones you should probably know what this entails. They also have on full body armor from head to toe, which presumably would stand up to the white mage's kitchen appliance. To top it off, they jump 100 feet in the air, and stab you with a diamond tipped 12 foot lance...

If you still can't understand why people think it's crazzzzyyyyyyyyyyyy that a WHM should not be as useful in the same roll as a DRG, then we can just never possibly understand each other.

Also, the same argument... I now say that Beastmaster and Dark Knight should be able to heal just as well as a WHM. It's absolutely asinine that a DARK KNIGHT cannot heal as well as a white mage. I can't believe the gull of anyone who doesn't believe this! They must be complete buffoons, clinging to their Final Fantasy ways... the idiots.



Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 3:22pm by Parathyroid

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 3:25pm by Parathyroid
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I probably understood about 1/10th of what was discussed in this thread and I'm sober as a rope. (I don't know if that's actually a saying or not). -Kierk
#170 Jun 02 2013 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
roles of the trinity


Kind of unrelated, but why is the "trinity" term used in connection with Final Fantasy, when really, there are five over-arching categories of jobs, as well as some jobs that are hybrids of more than one category?

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 12:18pm by Thayos


Tank/Damage/Support. That is the trinity in which every job is based, there are some variations sure, but at the end of they day, they follow the trinity in some shape or form, and FF not an exception just because is FF.
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#171 Jun 02 2013 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Also, the same argument... I now say that Beastmaster and Dark Knight should be able to heal just as well as a WHM. It's absolutely asinine that a DARK KNIGHT cannot heal as well as a white mage. I can't believe the gull of anyone who doesn't believe this! They must be complete buffoons, clinging to their Final Fantasy ways... the idiots.


I don't think it's quite like that... basically Kachi is saying that the potency of a white mage's healing should completely offset the damage dealt by a drk, and that whm should be able to deal enough damage while casting all these cure/protective spells that it should win against a drk roughly 50 percent of the time. That makes sense for PvP, but would create a different kind of balance in PvE, which is the issue this thread has moved toward.

However, what if the fight was a rdm vs. a drk? The rdm, with its primary role as a crowd control expert, could just use gravity+bind+sleep+nuke to just grind down the drk, and there would be nothing the drk could do about it (kind of like what Hyrist said in the post above). If we were to have 1:1 balancing on a job vs. job basis, then the drk (and all melee damage dealers) would need to be given abilities to nullify gravity that could be used as often as the spell is cast. And then the rdm would possibly need to be given either stronger defensive spells, or perhaps more powerful cure spells to offset the damage done by the drk's superior DD... and then the rdm may even need some kind of attack-boosting spell (more powerful than enspells) to be able to keep up with the drk... and in the event the rdm uses chainspell nuking, the drk would need some super defensive ability to counter that, too...

Anyway, you see where this is going. To balance jobs on a 1:1 basis not only seems unreasonable, but it doesn't seem like doing so would create a very fun game. This does sound a lot like Guild Wars 2, which was fun for a short while, but got old really quick, because the game required virtually no skill to play, because everyone was the same.

FFXIV is shaping up to be much more solo-friendly than FFXI, but with the class/job system, the development team seems intent upon preserving the emphasis on party roles in meaningful PvE content. I think the devs are handling all of this about as well as they can. They'll have more hybrid classes for people who want to solo and low-man things, and more role-intensive jobs for people who want to do party-intensive endgame content... as well as separate PvP abilities that might bring more 1:1 balance to jobs and classes without ruining the party balancing used in the rest of the game.

Quote:
Tank/Damage/Support. That is the trinity in which every job is based, there are some variations sure, but at the end of they day, they follow the trinity in some shape or form, and FF not an exception just because is FF.


Ah, gotcha... I always thought it was tank/damage/healer. The use of the word "support" as just one kind of job is such a misnomer though, because that encompasses healers, crowd control and party buffers, and each of those is a very unique role.

Like, a bard is support, but not a healer... and a whm is a healer, but not really support. If anything, it should be the "Holy Quad" of tank/dd/healer/support.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 1:06pm by Thayos

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 1:11pm by Thayos
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#172 Jun 02 2013 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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Parathyroid wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Well what kachi says is not that hard to understand, the problem is people are confusing roles of the trinity with how a class should work, they also cannot let their vision of how a class traditionally operates go for some unknown reason, i have actually never understood why a caster has to be this weak paper wearing guy, and the excuse that "Well it's Final Fantasy" is a cop out at best, Sephiroth was expert spell caster, who was a sword master also, in FFVI characters could wield swords as good as they casted spells etc etc.

Should a white mage beat a warrior ? Not always, but he should be able to pose a threat. Anyways carry on Smiley: lol You guys are hilarious



How is an individuals personal -Opinion- a cop out?

You can't understand why a WHM should be weaker than a Dragoon? Let's review... A WHM wears a robe, possibly even a cool rope to tie their robe, at best they have a piece of jewelry around their neck... their main source of offense is curing themselves. Ohhh they may also get an awesome wooden weapon that resembles that of a kitchen appliance.

A DRG has a dragon with them... yes a mother funking dragon, if you've seen game of thrones you should probably know what this entails. They also have on full body armor from head to toe, which presumably would stand up to the white mage's kitchen appliance. To top it off, they jump 100 feet in the air, and stab you with a diamond tipped 12 foot lance...

If you still can't understand why people think it's crazzzzyyyyyyyyyyyy that a WHM should not be as useful in the same roll as a DRG, then we can just never possibly understand each other.

Also, the same argument... I now say that Beastmaster and Dark Knight should be able to heal just as well as a WHM. It's absolutely asinine that a DARK KNIGHT cannot heal as well as a white mage. I can't believe the gull of anyone who doesn't believe this! They must be complete buffoons, clinging to their Final Fantasy ways... the idiots.



Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 3:22pm by Parathyroid

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 3:25pm by Parathyroid


Dragoons do not always have dragons, again you are basing your statement on what you "Believe" a dragoon to be, Kain in FFIV (THE DRAGOON OF DRAGOONS) had no dragon Smiley: lol Why should a white mage die the moment he see's anybody with a weapon ? Would it be crazy to say that a white mage would be able to put up a barrier/shield to block damage ? Not really, they after all have spells like Protect/Barrier/Haste/Slow/Stone/Blind/Holy. Would it be crazy if in a battle a white mage spots a Paladin/Dragoon/Archer and cast blind, making them useless then moves in for the kill ?

Most of the bosses in Final Fantasy, have been Magic wielding fiends.... How come they dint just say "Oh ok your main character has a sword... Sorry i give up, just kill me please" This notion that just because you can use magic, you have your hands tied, and should die 100% of the time as soon as a melee or a DD targets you, is silly and unrealistic. Should a White Mage out damage a Dragoon ? No! But he should pose a threat none the less.
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#173 Jun 02 2013 at 2:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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dint


Best word usage ever. Kudos.
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#174 Jun 02 2013 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Also, the same argument... I now say that Beastmaster and Dark Knight should be able to heal just as well as a WHM. It's absolutely asinine that a DARK KNIGHT cannot heal as well as a white mage. I can't believe the gull of anyone who doesn't believe this! They must be complete buffoons, clinging to their Final Fantasy ways... the idiots.


I don't think it's quite like that... basically Kachi is saying that the potency of a white mage's healing should completely offset the damage dealt by a drk, and that whm should be able to deal enough damage while casting all these cure/protective spells that it should win against a drk roughly 50 percent of the time. That makes sense for PvP, but would create a different kind of balance in PvE, which is the issue this thread has moved toward.

However, what if the fight was a rdm vs. a drk? The rdm, with its primary role as a crowd control expert, could just use gravity+bind+sleep+nuke to just grind down the drk, and there would be nothing the drk could do about it (kind of like what Hyrist said in the post above). If we were to have 1:1 balancing on a job vs. job basis, then the drk (and all melee damage dealers) would need to be given abilities to nullify gravity that could be used as often as the spell is cast. And then the rdm would possibly need to be given either stronger defensive spells, or perhaps more powerful cure spells to offset the damage done by the drk's superior DD... and then the rdm may even need some kind of attack-boosting spell (more powerful than enspells) to be able to keep up with the drk... and in the event the rdm uses chainspell nuking, the drk would need some super defensive ability to counter that, too...

Anyway, you see where this is going. To balance jobs on a 1:1 basis not only seems unreasonable, but it doesn't seem like doing so would create a very fun game. This does sound a lot like Guild Wars 2, which was fun for a short while, but got old really quick, because the game required virtually no skill to play, because everyone was the same.

FFXIV is shaping up to be much more solo-friendly than FFXI, but with the class/job system, the development team seems intent upon preserving the emphasis on party roles in meaningful PvE content. I think the devs are handling all of this about as well as they can. They'll have more hybrid classes for people who want to solo and low-man things, and more role-intensive jobs for people who want to do party-intensive endgame content... as well as separate PvP abilities that might bring more 1:1 balance to jobs and classes without ruining the party balancing used in the rest of the game.

Quote:
Tank/Damage/Support. That is the trinity in which every job is based, there are some variations sure, but at the end of they day, they follow the trinity in some shape or form, and FF not an exception just because is FF.


Ah, gotcha... I always thought it was tank/damage/healer. The use of the word "support" as just one kind of job is such a misnomer though, because that encompasses healers, crowd control and party buffers, and each of those is a very unique role.

Like, a bard is support, but not a healer... and a whm is a healer, but not really support. If anything, it should be the "Holy Quad" of tank/dd/healer/support.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 1:06pm by Thayos

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 1:11pm by Thayos


See i am not gonna say you are wrong, because i can understand from where you are coming from, but i disagree what you said about skills. GW2 requires a lot of skills in order to be successful in PVP, and that is because classes are balanced around each other, beating somebody just because i happen to be his counter class, is not skill, is the system working on my favor, MMO PVP is different than normal PVP, because there are many more things to take into consideration, for example Gear! Classes! and then Skill level.

PVP should strive to give everybody a 50/50 chance to win, the problem is that sometimes that is quite hard to do, but winning just because i roll the right class, or the class that happened to be OP, is not skill at all, there is no skill in beating somebody that has no chance at all, specially when it comes down to class mechanics, now if 2 characters of the same class fight, with the same level of armor, whoever wins 2 out of 3 is the most skilled player, because the playfield was even, this notion that you should have OP Classes or classes that flat out do better than others, in order to have skill is quite sad and well sad.

That is why call of duty games and legue of legend are so popular, because the victor is not determined by class but by skill, in COD you are all the same, whoever wins is whoever was more skillful or smarter. MMO Rpgs should strive to be like that, that is why wow is always balancing classes, in order to give all classes a 50/50 chance of winning.
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#175 Jun 02 2013 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Parathyroid wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Well what kachi says is not that hard to understand, the problem is people are confusing roles of the trinity with how a class should work, they also cannot let their vision of how a class traditionally operates go for some unknown reason, i have actually never understood why a caster has to be this weak paper wearing guy, and the excuse that "Well it's Final Fantasy" is a cop out at best, Sephiroth was expert spell caster, who was a sword master also, in FFVI characters could wield swords as good as they casted spells etc etc.

Should a white mage beat a warrior ? Not always, but he should be able to pose a threat. Anyways carry on Smiley: lol You guys are hilarious



How is an individuals personal -Opinion- a cop out?

You can't understand why a WHM should be weaker than a Dragoon? Let's review... A WHM wears a robe, possibly even a cool rope to tie their robe, at best they have a piece of jewelry around their neck... their main source of offense is curing themselves. Ohhh they may also get an awesome wooden weapon that resembles that of a kitchen appliance.

A DRG has a dragon with them... yes a mother funking dragon, if you've seen game of thrones you should probably know what this entails. They also have on full body armor from head to toe, which presumably would stand up to the white mage's kitchen appliance. To top it off, they jump 100 feet in the air, and stab you with a diamond tipped 12 foot lance...

If you still can't understand why people think it's crazzzzyyyyyyyyyyyy that a WHM should not be as useful in the same roll as a DRG, then we can just never possibly understand each other.

Also, the same argument... I now say that Beastmaster and Dark Knight should be able to heal just as well as a WHM. It's absolutely asinine that a DARK KNIGHT cannot heal as well as a white mage. I can't believe the gull of anyone who doesn't believe this! They must be complete buffoons, clinging to their Final Fantasy ways... the idiots.



Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 3:22pm by Parathyroid

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 3:25pm by Parathyroid


Dragoons do not always have dragons, again you are basing your statement on what you "Believe" a dragoon to be, Kain in FFIV (THE DRAGOON OF DRAGOONS) had no dragon Smiley: lol Why should a white mage die the moment he see's anybody with a weapon ? Would it be crazy to say that a white mage would be able to put up a barrier/shield to block damage ? Not really, they after all have spells like Protect/Barrier/Haste/Slow/Stone/Blind/Holy. Would it be crazy if in a battle a white mage spots a Paladin/Dragoon/Archer and cast blind, making them useless then moves in for the kill ?

Most of the bosses in Final Fantasy, have been Magic wielding fiends.... How come they dint just say "Oh ok your main character has a sword... Sorry i give up, just kill me please" This notion that just because you can use magic, you have your hands tied, and should die 100% of the time as soon as a melee or a DD targets you, is silly and unrealistic. Should a White Mage out damage a Dragoon ? No! But he should pose a threat none the less.


Fine dragoon, warrior, dark knight, beast master, red mage, black mage, blue mage, ranger, archer, monk, puppet master, ninja, samurai, corsair, summoner, paladin, school child with real weapon... all jobs which should kick WHMs ***.

Edit: I forgot Fisherman and Botanist.

Edit 2: I do tend to agree with you Ostia towards your point regarding PVP... However, I guess I just come from the camp that when PvEing, the party should have a healer. WHM should not be some damage dealing brute amongst the group. However you're right... I have no issue with giving WHM the ability to win a 1v1 in PVP... I think distinct rolls should be played in PvE however.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 5:09pm by Parathyroid
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I probably understood about 1/10th of what was discussed in this thread and I'm sober as a rope. (I don't know if that's actually a saying or not). -Kierk
#176 Jun 02 2013 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
Ken Burton's Reject
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You know, I've been very good. I've read this thread, had my little say with Gaxey, and tossed in a one off comment because, honestly, I did not want to wade into this argument with someone that, quite honestly, has an opinion far too high of themselves, their knowledge, and their opinions on game design.

You said you weren't arrogant. But then you post this:
Kachi wrote:
2: I can concede that my last comment sounded condescending, but come on guys. I've been saying some of these things very explicitly for a while now, and there's been very little effort to understand my point of view and a lot of effort to argue it. And I'm very familiar with that feeling--from talking to people who don't understand evolution. So I sincerely apologize if it came across as condescending, but I was just saying that that's how you're making me feel.

Are you some major industry player? Have you made a Triple-A, multi-million-dollar MMO that we've heard of? I mean, please, enlighten me. From what I gathered, you've studied programming, maybe even work within the industry.

And yet you're exemplifying what is entirely wrong with it at the same time.

Look around you. Just look. If you were a developer, these are your customers. They are telling you the product they want to see. And you are telling them that they are wrong. Marketing 101 hotshot. Here's a community clawing at your door, wanting a specific experience, and, if you had your way, you would not be giving it to them. Instead, you insist on making your ideal game. That you like. And sure, others will, but blinding yourself that there (gasp) is another way is nothing short of career suicide.

In addition, you keep calling down all these other games saying that they are unbalanced, even agreeing that "most MMOs ARE poorly designed". Gee, really? So, hotshot, where's your MMO? Where's your practical expertise that has shown that your methodology, your design theory, is so sound that your game will be a perfect, unerring gem?

You see, you've been bothering me this whole time, preaching from your soapbox that you know better, that you're having to come down among us and educate us because we're all just @#%^tard gamers who can't understand how simple it would be to balance a game. You're basically saying that almost every single major development house, all those programmers, everyone who has laid hands on a game, just doesn't get how to make them?And you do? Again, please show me a link to your game, I'd loooooove to see what your design is.

You see, you're making a cardinal sin that this industry is making over and over: Misjudging their audience. Square-Enix stated that Tomb Raider was a failure. Let me repeat that for you. Square-Enix stated that Tomb Raider was a failure. It sold 3.4 million units, and was deemed to not meet expectations. And why? The developer thought the players wanted some new fancy engine, Hollywood caliber actors and a bunch of other very expensive yet ultimately useless window dressing.

You know what was a successful game? Minecraft. @#%^ing Minecraft, made by a tiny team, with graphics and gameplay that no Triple-A developer would have touched with a 10-foot pole. That game would have needed a ton of improvements before anyone even looked at it. And yet, the money rolled in. Why? Because the developer listened to their audience. The Final Fantasy audience does not want a balanced PvP experience, no matter how "easy" you think it may be. No matter how explicitly you feel you've explained it to us simpletons of the forum who just aren't getting it.

See, we get it. We get that you'd prefer a game made that way. We get that you think that mathematically, that would be a great game. Here's the thing: WoW isn't @#%^ing balanced, and it has 12 million players at one point, and still boasts 8 million. And Rogues will still totally rape an unsuspecting player with little hope of a 50/50 win. You see, theory is a wonderful thing, but it can often conflict with reality. If you learn one thing from this thread, learn this:

Listen to the player base. They are who pays your salary.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 5:33pm by Pawkeshup
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