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PVP Worlds...Follow

#202 Jun 02 2013 at 7:32 PM Rating: Default
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I have read some of the most idiotic things in this giant mess of a thread. First of all, MMO gaming has been ruined by the desire to PvP. WoW (vanilla) was a GREAT game before the game became arena/pvp centered and blizzard spends all their time balancing classes for PvP which destroys PvE gameplay. Don't argue with me on this, because it's true. Everything was melted down to a color by number system with raiding/questing/leveling. It's awful. Guess what, it's still not balanced! Anyway, you can't take a game like this and toss in PvP just because you want to flash your epeen. It's just stupid. Game design has strayed so far away from pleasing the gamers who want a great PvE experience, MMO's have been alienated with garbage. My younger days are all but an afterthought of gaming fun! If you want to go bash other players in the face? Go play WoW and gtfo of this game. For the love of god, go away!! There has to be something left for us old adventurous types. I'm tired of the player versus player scene personally. It's a good reason I've stayed away from the current crop of MMO's and haven't touched WoW since the beginning of WoTLK.
#203 Jun 02 2013 at 7:35 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:


Something... I assure you it was good.


Agreed 100%. I also think 3/4 of the issue in this conversation is that people are switching back seamlessly between PVP and PVE and no one actually knows what the other person is trying to say.




Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 9:57pm by Parathyroid
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#204 Jun 02 2013 at 7:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I have a request... if you are quoting someone, can you just use their quote instead of the enitre giant quote tree? The posts get crazy long for a simple two line answer.
#205 Jun 02 2013 at 7:54 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:

The majority of players are unhappy with class balancing, so listening to a few people who think a method doesn't work (when I know it does), but offer no new solutions, doesn't seem the least bit prudent to me.


Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 5:26pm by Kachi


Who the hell are these majority of people? I assure you they aren't MMO players... Everyone I know (anecdotal evidence alert) loves the balance of the MMOs they play. As someone said before, if you wanted perfectly balanced classes go play a fps.

So I suppose it becomes a matter of philosophy. Do you build an MM fricking O for MMO players, or do you build it for FPS players (let us assume I'm referring to RPGs specifically.)

Since you love analogies so much, I'll provide one of my own. If you decide to build an MMO for someone other than MMO players, based on their "unhappiness" (I'm playing the worlds smallest violin for them right now, it's a sad sad song Smiley: glare that's like building a Ferrari with four doors and child safety locks... why? Because the Prius owners wanted something that suited their needs better.

Anywho... Ohhh all-knowing-all-powerful-one I await your response!
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#206 Jun 02 2013 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, you're not getting one.

BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
So at this point, I'm happy to answer questions, talk about design and balance, etc... I'm done with the arguments. If you have an argument and it makes you feel better to get it all out here on the intranets, go 'head.


Smiley: lol Keep sticking those fingers in your ears. Wouldn't want you to accidentally hear someones point of view that doesn't coincide with your own.


You honestly don't know the difference between disagreeing in conversation and arguing with someone, do you? I'm happy to do the former, as I've proved a thousand times on this forum. When you can do the same, we'll talk about whatever you want.

I am listening, so by all means, keep going. But I'm not responding.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 7:16pm by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#207 Jun 02 2013 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Pironin85 wrote:
I have read some of the most idiotic things in this giant mess of a thread. First of all, MMO gaming has been ruined by the desire to PvP. WoW (vanilla) was a GREAT game before the game became arena/pvp centered and blizzard spends all their time balancing classes for PvP which destroys PvE gameplay. Don't argue with me on this, because it's true. Everything was melted down to a color by number system with raiding/questing/leveling. It's awful. Guess what, it's still not balanced! Anyway, you can't take a game like this and toss in PvP just because you want to flash your epeen. It's just stupid. Game design has strayed so far away from pleasing the gamers who want a great PvE experience, MMO's have been alienated with garbage. My younger days are all but an afterthought of gaming fun! If you want to go bash other players in the face? Go play WoW and gtfo of this game. For the love of god, go away!! There has to be something left for us old adventurous types. I'm tired of the player versus player scene personally. It's a good reason I've stayed away from the current crop of MMO's and haven't touched WoW since the beginning of WoTLK.


Well it seems not only do i disagree with you, but Yoshida does as well Smiley: lol

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#208 Jun 02 2013 at 8:29 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
I am listening, so by all means, keep going. But I'm not responding.


You kinda just did...

However, I'm just going to drop it, because regardless of how explicitly I explain my counter-argument, you just gloss over it by claiming I don't understand. It's extremely common practice for people who either don't know how to debate a topic, or those too stubborn to see anything from another point of view. For example, several times in this very thread I've pointed out that while I don't agree with your ideas, I can't say they are completely false without seeing them in action. I even said it's possible that you could sway my opinion to your side were you to show me proof in a game. You, however, refuse to accept any other view from yours or acknowledge that anyone from the other side could possibly be correct by just claiming that no one "gets" what you are saying. It's incredibly shallow, and also pretty demeaning to those involved.
#209 Jun 02 2013 at 8:31 PM Rating: Good
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Then I guess neither of us think much of the other's capacity for discourse. Simple solution then, right?
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#210 Jun 02 2013 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Then I guess neither of us think much of the other's capacity for discourse. Simple solution then, right?


Absolutely, you go your way, I'll go mine. No harm, no foul. Smiley: nod
#211 Jun 02 2013 at 9:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Dizmo wrote:
If I wanted to play a game with balanced PVP classes, I would play an FPS or a fighting game. MMOs are meant to model somewhat realistic worlds right? Realistic conflict is rarely balanced and the result is typically the side that came to the fight with the most information and cunning. If you cut that out, the winner is by and large the side with the most forces, leading to very shallow gameplay.

People who are annoyed that their support class isn't good at lone combat should switch to a class that is. If there is only trivial differentiation between classes what is the point of even having them? Vanity?


In a somewhat realistic world, a mage would not become an instant kill for a melee warrior, if i where a warlord, and i had an army, in which there was a magical unit, i would train them in hand to hand combat, what is the point of having a magical unit, that becomes useless if the line is broken and a few soldiers get to them, and they just become dead meat ?


I'm sorry, I don't understand the problem. You are just describing the concept of a support class.

Quote:
Where do we draw the line in this fake realism, could 5 warriors kill 500 mages, because well mages do 0 damage, so GG!?

What?

Quote:
I mean if we are supposed to have a semi realistic world, then anybody can kill anybody, in real war/battles, nobody is inmune to an arrow, or a sword, or a spell(Well theorically) you can be the greatest warrior to have walked the earth, one mistake in battle, and you are dead. That is realism.


Indeed.
#212 Jun 02 2013 at 10:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Someone crap in your cornflakes Kachi? You're coming across incredibly arrogant and annoying as hell. Makes me glad I skip most of your posts that are more than a few sentences long, but I'm getting arrogance even from what little I do read.
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#213 Jun 02 2013 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Someone crap in your cornflakes Kachi? You're coming across incredibly arrogant and annoying as hell. Makes me glad I skip most of your posts that are more than a few sentences long, but I'm getting arrogance even from what little I do read.


You just don't understand his genius. It must hurt.
#214 Jun 02 2013 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Well, you're not getting one.

BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
So at this point, I'm happy to answer questions, talk about design and balance, etc... I'm done with the arguments. If you have an argument and it makes you feel better to get it all out here on the intranets, go 'head.


Smiley: lol Keep sticking those fingers in your ears. Wouldn't want you to accidentally hear someones point of view that doesn't coincide with your own.


You honestly don't know the difference between disagreeing in conversation and arguing with someone, do you? I'm happy to do the former, as I've proved a thousand times on this forum. When you can do the same, we'll talk about whatever you want.

I am listening, so by all means, keep going. But I'm not responding.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 7:16pm by Kachi


Kachi you smell like ego!
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#215 Jun 03 2013 at 1:54 AM Rating: Good
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My god Smiley: eek so many posts!!

Well ill be that guy and get this thing back on track!...YEA who is with me?....no one? Well whatever..

Yea so some people loved the PVP worlds in wow (not me) because as i heard them say when you are in higher levels it adds some "realism" since 2 different factions keep fighting over and over again. Of course open world pvp has many other problems that we all know but yea it does seem nice when you get 500 people to storm the opposing factions cities (FOR THE HORDEEEEE... <3 I loved that one) even though that one is also in pve realms but anyway.

For me i liked the battlegrounds..they were like minigames that i enjoyed as hell. That's how i like my pvp i do not want to get a 12 year old with uber awesome PVP skills to keep killing me over and over again and not let me finish the freekin quest when i went to play my favorite MMO after a hard day at work.

Welp thats my take.

Oh one last thing i agreed with Ostia in some of the things he said but i couldn't disagree more when you said

Quote:
A developer should have a vision of what his game should be, and sure he should listen to his fanbase in some aspects, but he should not divert from the vision of the game he has, because then the game will suffer for it, because he might listen to you in one or two things, but he will still continue to move forward into that vision he has.


While it is true that he must maintain a vision of what game he wants to put out there. If you do not listen to your fans then you lost the game go play it yourself and the rest of the dev team alone.

True fact Eve online was going in a direction that the gamers didn't like. CCP was trying to introduce new things in the game (walking in stations micro transactions for outfits etc) and they had the stack up attitude saying that "we are doing it deal with it". The result? A dramatic drop in subs and also a huuuuge portion of the players (and i mean in thousands) where storming the head solar system of the game and were shooting a memorial there along with normal player kills. That caused massive lags from all those thousands of people in one place shooting everything (i believe even one of the last super carriers in high security systems undocked for the heck of it as he said http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGEhi8QZqhM). CCP even had to go out and tell the players to avoid that solar system. In the end CCP had to apologize to the players and stop what they were doing and give the players what they really wanted.

The result? after a year CCP manage to break the 400k and 500k i believe barrier of subs because people started coming back.

What i am trying to say is yea devs need to have a basic idea of what they are doing and where they want their game to go but they will lose the fight if they do not deliver what the players want.



Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 4:52am by Teravibe
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#216 Jun 03 2013 at 2:14 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Someone crap in your cornflakes Kachi? You're coming across incredibly arrogant and annoying as hell. Makes me glad I skip most of your posts that are more than a few sentences long, but I'm getting arrogance even from what little I do read.


Oh, okay. It's just me then. Smiley: rolleyes

I come in here trying to discuss game design, confident in the point that I'm making. Other people argue my point without even understanding it, and then increasingly interpret my confidence as arrogance. I try to disengage from the debate and move towards the more civil discourse that I know and love.

When people show me that they can't maintain a civil conversation about video games, I lose respect for them, and become dismissive of what they have to say. If I carry an air of superiority, it's because of that, and nothing to do with the substance of the conversation. The fact is, there was very little substance to this conversation despite the constant egging me on to participate in it.

I may not reek of humility here, but don't single me out like I'm the only one.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#217 Jun 03 2013 at 2:51 AM Rating: Good
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Just chiming in... havent posted in awhile. Hi all btw!

Back on like page 2 or 3 of this thread (which im too tired and lazy to go back and find), someone mentioned FFXI not having a strong base of PVP players for things like ballista or diorama. I haven't played FFXI since back when the level cap was 75 and people were smashing colibri in merit parties. Back in those days, weren't there 2 "unofficial" PVP servers? After the world transfer thing came to light, people interested in PVP would migrate to those servers for the sole purpose of PVP. One was Lakshmi server, and the other... not really sure. I wanna say Pandemonium?

Anywho, point is PVP did indeed exist in FFXI, and I know (at least back in the old days) that some people who had already finished the main storyline missions and got their 75 jobs and decent-ish gear weren't interested in dynamis runs or sea farming anymore. It was ballista and diorama all day, every day... just not on every server hehe. I still recall the good ol' times when people who couldn't enter an official ballista match would just stand by the herald and literally watched the battles from the sidelines.

Ahh man I'm struggling to remember the name of those 3 official ballista zones. Tahrongi Canyon, Pashow Marshlands i think and uhh... some other place (good lord its been so long). Anywho, the ballista heralds in those 3 zones were never lonely. I mean never. Ever. And about 70% of the time, the matches would be completely full. Every single day. All day long. It was a blaaaaaaaaaaast! Ahh the memories... :D

K bye. :)
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#218 Jun 03 2013 at 4:54 AM Rating: Good
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I will say that PvP sells mmo subs to some players. However, I feel these plsyers are ultimately bad investments, and focussing on them will inevitably fail you, all the while taking away from PvE developnent opportunity, and adding balancing headaches.

Pvp should be done in other genres in my opinion. Sports. War. Fighting. Rts. Classic strategy.

Stats and levels degrade the competition. These games take enough dev resources as it is. No need to put out a crappy oblifatory pvp sector just to pick up some players who inevitably leave after they make a mess of your game.
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#219 Jun 03 2013 at 6:30 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Wint wrote:
Someone crap in your cornflakes Kachi? You're coming across incredibly arrogant and annoying as hell. Makes me glad I skip most of your posts that are more than a few sentences long, but I'm getting arrogance even from what little I do read.


Oh, okay. It's just me then. Smiley: rolleyes

I come in here trying to discuss game design, confident in the point that I'm making. Other people argue my point without even understanding it, and then increasingly interpret my confidence as arrogance. I try to disengage from the debate and move towards the more civil discourse that I know and love.

When people show me that they can't maintain a civil conversation about video games, I lose respect for them, and become dismissive of what they have to say. If I carry an air of superiority, it's because of that, and nothing to do with the substance of the conversation. The fact is, there was very little substance to this conversation despite the constant egging me on to participate in it.

I may not reek of humility here, but don't single me out like I'm the only one.


You want to know why people are calling you arrogant?

Kachi wrote:
Other people argue my point without even understanding it


You think for some reason people are too stupid, or don't have enough experience, or whatever it is, to understand your point. That is why people think you're being arrogant. I understand your point precisely. You feel that if you are able to balance classes for PvP in a 1 on 1 setting at the start, that it will allow developers to make engaging content for both PvP and PvE that is easy to incorporate and allows for all classes to be utilized in a relatively even manner.

It's not a hard point to understand, it's very cut and dry. There have been several people in this thread who have even paraphrased your point, to which you have agreed that they nailed it. We've then offered up reasons why we feel that it probably won't work out that way, to which you just immediately dismiss by saying "we don't understand". It's a cop out. Rather than actually attempt to defend your position, you revert back to this "you don't get it" mentality at every turn, and then claim that people aren't being civil.

Was that just a cover to say I'm not being civil? If so, I'll again point you to the fact that YOU were the one who called me a jackass before I even mentioned your arrogance, other than me pointing out that you lose the argument when you can't separate your opinions from facts and are somehow superior to others in terms of understanding. That's pretty much the very definition of arrogance.

Now then, I'd say that's a pretty civil post... whether or not you interpret it that way is another matter, but I'd like to refer you to the quote in your own signature, as actually I feel it's you who has been wrongly confusing inference and implication.
#220 Jun 03 2013 at 6:33 AM Rating: Good
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I didn't call you a jackass, though I can see how you took it that way.

But civil or no, you're still making an awfully trifling video game discussion a rather more personal thing than it ought to be, which is why I won't discuss it with you. That's all, and no other reason.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#221 Jun 03 2013 at 6:37 AM Rating: Decent
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benjjjamin wrote:
I will say that PvP sells mmo subs to some players. However, I feel these plsyers are ultimately bad investments, and focussing on them will inevitably fail you, all the while taking away from PvE developnent opportunity, and adding balancing headaches.

Pvp should be done in other genres in my opinion. Sports. War. Fighting. Rts. Classic strategy.

Stats and levels degrade the competition. These games take enough dev resources as it is. No need to put out a crappy oblifatory pvp sector just to pick up some players who inevitably leave after they make a mess of your game.

All MMOs must be PVE?
#222 Jun 03 2013 at 6:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
I didn't call you a jackass, though I can see how you took it that way.


Kachi wrote:
(See how that really doesn't add anything to my argument? It just comes across as being an argumentative jackass, whether I'm right or not.)


Putting the words "comes across as" doesn't negate you calling me an argumentative jackass. Please don't make this into a semantics debate.

Kachi wrote:
But civil or no, you're still making an awfully trifling video game discussion a rather more personal thing than it ought to be, which is why I won't discuss it with you. That's all, and no other reason.


How did I make it personal exactly? By calling you arrogant? You are being arrogant. Arrogance is an attitude of superiority or self-importance. You claiming that others can't comprehend or understand your point is arrogance, especially when it's been laid out for you clear as day. Everything I've posted after that was in response to you making some demeaning or belittling comment about myself or the rest of the community. I really don't care if you want to discuss it with me or not anymore, because it's abundantly clear you will just ignore anything you don't like by claiming I don't get it, when I think it's pretty clear I do. That's not even an argument or debate. It's acting like a child when you don't get your way. (oh sorry, that's probably a personal attack in your eyes)

Anyways, I'm done here. Talking to brick walls gets old.
#223 Jun 03 2013 at 7:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Dizmo wrote:
All MMOs must be PVE?


No, but I wish more never even bothered with PVP at all. Attempts to please everyone usually result in pleasing no one. That is my experience with PVP in MMOs. I think PVP contributed greatly to Rift's decay, and I consider it one of the reasons FFXI has lasted as long as it has. With PVP comes a torrent of complaints and balancing issues that, again in my opinion, degrades the morale and culture of MMOs. I think PVP mmo players should be given the opportunity to subscribe to PVP-focussed MMO games. However, this has been tried a few times, and these MMOs have not done well. In fairness, they were not good games. In retro-fairness, I don't think any MMO that focusses on PVP *can* be a good game. Again, there is inherent conflict in RPG and PVP formats that do not go together. There are no other competitive arenas where competitors are given unequal equipment. Practice and skill are what makes competitions competitions. RPG components, again, conflict with what makes PVP inherently good.

If PVP mmos continue to do poorly, PVP should be dropped from MMOs altogether and, again, left to better genres for it.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 9:23am by benjjjamin
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#224 Jun 03 2013 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't see why PVP and RPG cannot go together, it seems kinda lame and unreal that in a world, nobody would have a problem with you at all, that only monsters are out to get you, and not even, because one of the major differences in an RPG and a MMO is that in an RPG, monsters attack you, every steep of the way, and in a MMO you hunt and attack the monsters, they are just out there chilling in the grass, and here we come to hunt them down for exp...
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#225 Jun 03 2013 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
They just need to hurry up and make Persona Arena / Mortal Kombat Online / Street Fighter Online and call it a day Smiley: laugh
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#226 Jun 03 2013 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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Dizmo wrote:
All MMOs must be PVE?


Not at all, but there are quite a few MMOs that are pvp-centric. Isn't it ok to have a few that exclude pvp entirely to focus on pve content?

Final Fantasy seems like the perfect canvas for something like that.
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