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How are you all handling marauder's TP starvation?Follow

#1 Jun 16 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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In trying to keep the 15 dungeons going at a nice pace, I had a hard time staying above 500 tp. I tried to spend the back half of the fights just autoattacking, but that can be dangerous eventually when things get harder. Even in the ifrit fight, just doing the stdps rotation (Mine went like...Fracture->Heavy Swing->Maim->Heavy Swing->Skull Sunder->Heavy Swing->Skull sunder->Back to Fracture), the TP pool would only last about half way into the fight.

Are you supposed to take breaks from your rotations? Maybe the rotations will fill out with more abilities that cost less TP I guess...
I switched to lancer and the thing almost can't run out of tp XD

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 5:02pm by Wint Lock Thread: This isn't going anywhere good anymore.
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#2 Jun 16 2013 at 1:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm confused. Is the Ifrit battle in the beta? Or are you talking about 1.23? If so, are you talking 1.23 for dungeons as well? Please elaborate.
#3 Jun 16 2013 at 1:49 PM Rating: Default
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I think the Ifrit fight was in the Beta?

I don't understand why you would want to keep your TP above 500, is there a bonus if you do?

Edited, Jun 16th 2013 3:49pm by supermegazeke
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#4 Jun 16 2013 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Ifirit is lvl 20 story mission and is in beta. If you saw anyone controlling their own chocobo they had to fight ifirit 1st. No loot just story mission.

As far as MRD TP I didn't have much trouble outside of tanking.

Edited, Jun 16th 2013 4:09pm by Strifefish

Edited, Jun 16th 2013 4:10pm by Strifefish
#5 Jun 16 2013 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Once you get into the higher tier battles, you'll need to focus on making your to last throughout the entire battle and not just spam your skills. This is pretty much what yoshi p was talking about when it gets more complicated when you get past the initial quests and get further into the battle system.
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#6 Jun 16 2013 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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benjjjamin wrote:
In trying to keep the 15 dungeons going at a nice pace, I had a hard time staying above 500 tp. I tried to spend the back half of the fights just autoattacking, but that can be dangerous eventually when things get harder. Even in the ifrit fight, just doing the stdps rotation (Mine went like...Fracture->Heavy Swing->Maim->Heavy Swing->Skull Sunder->Heavy Swing->Skull sunder->Back to Fracture), the TP pool would only last about half way into the fight.

Are you supposed to take breaks from your rotations? Maybe the rotations will fill out with more abilities that cost less TP I guess...
I switched to lancer and the thing almost can't run out of tp XD


Yoshi-P's probably looking at it from the endgame view when everyone has all buffs and whatnot. In that situation a Bard granting Paeon of War plus any other possible forms of TP regeneration helps immensely. It could also be that Marauder's TP costs will be adjusted or that they give traits/etc. that increase the rate of generation without going overboard.

Who knows?

There's also the fact that I don't think you're supposed to be taking "breaks" from your rotation so much as the probable need to delay abilities a second or two to "space out" the damage so that you're not starved and are doing a good consistent amount of damage over the course of a fight. As gear gets better and fights get shorter (i.e. farm status) you can step up the speed of your combos slightly when you know you're not going to be starved.

At least, that's how it looks like to me: not so much as running until you've drained the well but spacing out the withdrawals so there's a continual flow.
#7 Jun 16 2013 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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The game stops you from spamming for a few seconds and you think there's a problem.

Love it.
#8 Jun 16 2013 at 4:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Have to actually agree with Killua on this, because that was one of the big complaints about solo battle and combat in early levels. TP refills quickly when you're alone. And those of use from earlier phases warned that it gets harder and tougher in dungeons and you will, actually, start to have issues with it.

TP in battle is restored at a steady pace, and I believe you can get gear that will speed up the regen process eventually. It just means you have to use it judiciously and to the best effect and not merely spam the same two abilities over and over again.

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#9 Jun 16 2013 at 5:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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someone kill me... I just rated Killua up even if his tone was a bit rude...

MP management... TP management... welcome to FF
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#10 Jun 16 2013 at 5:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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I rated him up as well... now excuse me while I go wash my left mouse button. Aside from that I love it.

Yoshi himself stated that TP is a finite resource and once you run out you're in trouble. I love how it works ^^
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#11 Jun 16 2013 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Hmm so it's still relatively slow paced battles as the theme I guess. I'll have to see what it feels like once I get some other non-tp OGCD abilities to fill in the spare time. It doesn't feel right to wait for TP while only doing a single target dps rotation on tank. I can see not being able to spam Overpower in AoE mode, but it feels a little expensive for single target marauder. Game feels like it's on the brink of being able to spam abilities with the proper buffs. Maybe that'll be an advantage of a full party later on.

Coming over from rift where there was no holding back on any role, it feels like a big speed bump. But compared to XI it is a fair bit more occupying.
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#12 Jun 16 2013 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
Hmm so it's still relatively slow paced battles as the theme I guess. I'll have to see what it feels like once I get some other non-tp OGCD abilities to fill in the spare time. It doesn't feel right to wait for TP while only doing a single target dps rotation on tank. I can see not being able to spam Overpower in AoE mode, but it feels a little expensive for single target marauder. Game feels like it's on the brink of being able to spam abilities with the proper buffs. Maybe that'll be an advantage of a full party later on.

Coming over from rift where there was no holding back on any role, it feels like a big speed bump. But compared to XI it is a fair bit more occupying.


Considering what I saw of 1.0 boss fights I'd hardly call the fights slowly paced. No, it's more of a system -- to *ME* personally at least -- that seems to offer two speeds of killing and actually sounds interesting.

Take what I saw of the high level Ifrit fights: they have the boss to deal damage on and the spire structures that spawn and need to be burned ASAP. You have the slight slower and steady combat mechanics on Ifrit himself while there exists burn phases on the spires where you chain ability combos as quickly as you can. Once then burns are over you reign back on TP consumption in case you need it again, etc.

It seems more of a give and take system and I wouldn't be surprised if you're correct. The amount of carnage potential a class had in FFXI was directly proportional to how many buffs you got from other players, so the same happening here wouldn't strike me as unusual.
#13 Jun 16 2013 at 11:25 PM Rating: Decent
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The general population will not like sitting there with no tp. Other MMO's have tried it. In Rift, for example, the compromise was that you could not go all out by yourself or in a normal party, but with a support job in the raid, you would essentially unlock raid dps/tanking/healing power unobtainable in a light party or solo.

As much as rate down is being used in the topic, we have a lot of FFXI players who like the idea of people exhausting MP and TP. I'm just saying it won't fly that well for the general population to sit there waiting for auto attack to replenish their pools in raid setting, and it's not the most active system in the world to consciously have to wait to do a simple single target dps rotation.

There were specs in Rift capable of outstripping even raid regain, but that was only in the harshest of AoE expenditure.

As a gauge for how slow paced this is, the GCD in rift is 0.75 to 1 second, with about twice the off global cooldown abilities actionable and reactive abilities on top of that.

That's supposedly to give you time to think about your next move, as stated in the direction of the game posts on the beta forum. So long as it's just not to be slow because fast is bad, that's fine. But it doesn't take me 2.5 seconds to think of my next move....especially if my next move is going to be 3 autoattacks.

I don't see the point in conscientious TP conservation, espectially if MP seems to be in unlimited supply.
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#14 Jun 16 2013 at 11:42 PM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
The general population will not like sitting there with no tp. Other MMO's have tried it. In Rift, for example, the compromise was that you could not go all out by yourself or in a normal party, but with a support job in the raid, you would essentially unlock raid dps/tanking/healing power unobtainable in a light party or solo.

As much as rate down is being used in the topic, we have a lot of FFXI players who like the idea of people exhausting MP and TP. I'm just saying it won't fly that well for the general population to sit there waiting for auto attack to replenish their pools in raid setting, and it's not the most active system in the world to consciously have to wait to do a simple single target dps rotation.

There were specs in Rift capable of outstripping even raid regain, but that was only in the harshest of AoE expenditure.

As a gauge for how slow paced this is, the GCD in rift is 0.75 to 1 second, with about twice the off global cooldown abilities actionable and reactive abilities on top of that.

That's supposedly to give you time to think about your next move, as stated in the direction of the game posts on the beta forum. So long as it's just not to be slow because fast is bad, that's fine. But it doesn't take me 2.5 seconds to think of my next move....especially if my next move is going to be 3 autoattacks.

I don't see the point in conscientious TP conservation, espectially if MP seems to be in unlimited supply.


In my limited experience in the beta, it all depends on which class you are playing. As of right now(as far as I've encountered), TP has very little to no use to mage classes. I've only played THM to lvl 8, but I didn't use any TP up until then. Why would they even need it really? They concentrate on their MP while those dragoons and marauders can worry about their TP. Yoshi has said that the GCD will seem much faster once you start using the higher level spells and skills. He's mentioned that the GCD will essentially be completely gone by the time the skill animation has finished. We still have yet to try out any real end game dungeons and skills, so we really must take his word for it. Also, if your GCD is too long, invest in some materia that decreases your GCD when release finally comes along. There will be materia that decreases GCD along with materia that decreases weapon skill and spell cast times.

EDIT: As a response to one of Benjj's earlier posts mentioning that the battle speed is already hitting a speed bump, people are already complaining that the battle speed is too fast. You have no idea how much complaining was being done during alpha/beta 1.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 1:45am by swisa
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#15 Jun 16 2013 at 11:59 PM Rating: Decent
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A quick review of the beta thread titles indicate that at least 3 people think battles are too slow to one who thinks they're too action oriented.
I'm of the persuasion that it is significantly too slow. I cannot imagine the phase 2 beta, when there weren't this "many" ogcd abilities.

In rift, the GCD was 0.75 seconds, and you were popping 1-2 OGCD or reactionary abilities in between each GCD to maximize your effectiveness. Macros would do the grunt work for you, and it was impossible to freehand it was so fast. But the strategy and intelligence came from the order of the macro'ing. Not in the decision on what ability to use next.

I'm not a fan of considering any decision of what ability to use next in this game as "strategy." I'm not seeing anything cerebral here. I do, however, see slow as molasses gameplay by modern comparison.

Maybe raid settings and gear will take that GCD down by half. I hope so.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 2:00am by benjjjamin
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#16 Jun 17 2013 at 6:56 AM Rating: Decent
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benjjjamin wrote:
In trying to keep the 15 dungeons going at a nice pace, I had a hard time staying above 500 tp. I tried to spend the back half of the fights just autoattacking, but that can be dangerous eventually when things get harder. Even in the ifrit fight, just doing the stdps rotation (Mine went like...Fracture->Heavy Swing->Maim->Heavy Swing->Skull Sunder->Heavy Swing->Skull sunder->Back to Fracture), the TP pool would only last about half way into the fight.

Are you supposed to take breaks from your rotations? Maybe the rotations will fill out with more abilities that cost less TP I guess...
I switched to lancer and the thing almost can't run out of tp XD


You have to manage your TP, same some for important abilities, auto attack a bit.
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#17 Jun 17 2013 at 7:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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benjjjamin wrote:
I don't see the point in conscientious TP conservation, espectially if MP seems to be in unlimited supply.


So basically, you don't see the point in battle tactics for DPS classes. That's pretty much what I got from reading this thread. You run out of TP, and instead of learning how to conserve it and use it efficiently, you just bash the game for not being like Rift, where you can constantly spam to your hearts content. I hate to use this saying, but I feel like I have to... if you want the combat to be like Rift, go play Rift. I'm actually excited to get to a point where I'll have to manage my TP effectively. At low levels you can just spam away and never worry about it, so it will be a nice bonus to not be constantly sitting at 1k tp.

Also, I have to ask... have you leveled every class to the beta cap to see if there are cross-class abilities that might help your TP regen? I'm pretty sure lancer has at least a couple that would help you out. Not to mention, we aren't even able to level to 50 yet, and we aren't even able to play jobs (or is it classes, I always get em confused). Who's to say TP regeneration isn't considerably better for jobs? Or maybe even the support jobs will add better TP regen for a party dynamic. We don't know yet.

It just seems like you've condemned the system already without knowing hardly anything about it. And how could you? Most of it isn't even available in-game yet.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 9:13am by BartelX
#18 Jun 17 2013 at 7:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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MP isn't unlimited, the longer the fight lasts the more you get drained. I had to use ethers several times on FATEs, especially when there were not very many people participating.
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#19 Jun 17 2013 at 9:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Not to mention, we aren't even able to level to 50 yet, and we aren't even able to play jobs (or is it classes, I always get em confused).


Just think of it in terms of WoW, Rift, Diablo 2, or SWTOR (if you've ever played either of those games).

The Paladin/Cleric/Necromancer/Jedi Consular is the class, just like Marauder, Gladiator, or Conjurer in FFXIV.

The Retribution/Cabalist/Bone/Sage aspect is a specialized branch of the above mentioned class, like Warrior, Paladin, or White Mage.

Class = the base of the tree.

Job = the branches of that tree.


Edited, Jun 17th 2013 11:24am by Viertel
#20 Jun 17 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Not to mention, we aren't even able to level to 50 yet, and we aren't even able to play jobs (or is it classes, I always get em confused).


Just think of it in terms of WoW, Rift, Diablo 2, or SWTOR (if you've ever played either of those games).

The Paladin/Cleric/Necromancer/Jedi Consular is the class, just like Marauder, Gladiator, or Conjurer in FFXIV.

The Retribution/Cabalist/Bone/Sage aspect is a specialized branch of the above mentioned class, like Warrior, Paladin, or White Mage.

Class = the base of the tree.

Job = the branches of that tree.


Edited, Jun 17th 2013 11:24am by Viertel


Very good explanation. Thank you, rate up. Makes sense... base class, specialized job.
#21 Jun 17 2013 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
benjjjamin wrote:
I don't see the point in conscientious TP conservation, espectially if MP seems to be in unlimited supply.


So basically, you don't see the point in battle tactics for DPS classes. Edited, Jun 17th 2013 9:13am by BartelX


Basically, it's poor game design and standards to call this battle tactics. They should design lower output rotations that have net positive tp gain, as well as high output rotations that burn tp. As opposed to...ya know...having the basic marauder rotation bottom out after a minute and a half.

They can easily do better. You can have your "tactics" and still be provided something to do other than sitting there doing nothing on purpose.
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#22 Jun 17 2013 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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benjjjamin wrote:
BartelX wrote:
benjjjamin wrote:
I don't see the point in conscientious TP conservation, espectially if MP seems to be in unlimited supply.


So basically, you don't see the point in battle tactics for DPS classes. Edited, Jun 17th 2013 9:13am by BartelX


Basically, it's poor game design and standards to call this battle tactics. They should design lower output rotations that have net positive tp gain, as well as high output rotations that burn tp. As opposed to...ya know...having the basic marauder rotation bottom out after a minute and a half.

They can easily do better. You can have your "tactics" and still be provided something to do other than sitting there doing nothing on purpose.


You're wrong.

A big complaint in early phases was the near limitless supply of tp. Now it's limited and the complaint is "I dont have enough tp!" This is what auto attacks are for. they are your constant supply of dmg.

As War, you should be saving tp for Enmity Generation moves in an emergency, and HP stealing moves, also in an emergency. What you shouldn't do is hit 1 until it's empty and then call it bad mechanics.
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#23 Jun 17 2013 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
BartelX wrote:
benjjjamin wrote:
I don't see the point in conscientious TP conservation, espectially if MP seems to be in unlimited supply.


So basically, you don't see the point in battle tactics for DPS classes. Edited, Jun 17th 2013 9:13am by BartelX


Basically, it's poor game design and standards to call this battle tactics. They should design lower output rotations that have net positive tp gain, as well as high output rotations that burn tp. As opposed to...ya know...having the basic marauder rotation bottom out after a minute and a half.

They can easily do better. You can have your "tactics" and still be provided something to do other than sitting there doing nothing on purpose.


Ok, so it's good game design to be able to spam your skills to no end without care whatsoever? Sorry, I disagree. Like I said, maybe if you had actually played some other classes and learned some cross-class skills... like the lancer ability that restores 300tp every 3 minutes, you'd have liked it more. Or maybe if you understood the concept of conservation of resources in a game, you wouldn't have that problem. To me, it just sounds like you don't understand how to manage your abilities well. That's not a fault of the game, it's a fault of the player.
#24 Jun 17 2013 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
BartelX wrote:
benjjjamin wrote:
I don't see the point in conscientious TP conservation, espectially if MP seems to be in unlimited supply.


So basically, you don't see the point in battle tactics for DPS classes. Edited, Jun 17th 2013 9:13am by BartelX


Basically, it's poor game design and standards to call this battle tactics. They should design lower output rotations that have net positive tp gain, as well as high output rotations that burn tp. As opposed to...ya know...having the basic marauder rotation bottom out after a minute and a half.

They can easily do better. You can have your "tactics" and still be provided something to do other than sitting there doing nothing on purpose.


That's the thing. You wont just be standing there doing nothing. If you are, you aren't going to last very long. The later battles(any primal battle for example) will require you to be moving around. You'll be too busy running around the battle field to notice how fast or slow your tp is restoring. If you need an idea of how the battles go closer to end game look up the garuda/ifrit/moogle battles on youtube.
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#25 Jun 17 2013 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
benjjjamin wrote:
BartelX wrote:
benjjjamin wrote:
I don't see the point in conscientious TP conservation, espectially if MP seems to be in unlimited supply.


So basically, you don't see the point in battle tactics for DPS classes. Edited, Jun 17th 2013 9:13am by BartelX


Basically, it's poor game design and standards to call this battle tactics. They should design lower output rotations that have net positive tp gain, as well as high output rotations that burn tp. As opposed to...ya know...having the basic marauder rotation bottom out after a minute and a half.

They can easily do better. You can have your "tactics" and still be provided something to do other than sitting there doing nothing on purpose.


You're wrong.

A big complaint in early phases was the near limitless supply of tp. Now it's limited and the complaint is "I dont have enough tp!" This is what auto attacks are for. they are your constant supply of dmg.

As War, you should be saving tp for Enmity Generation moves in an emergency, and HP stealing moves, also in an emergency. What you shouldn't do is hit 1 until it's empty and then call it bad mechanics.


As a marauder, my simple rotation is fracture->heavy swing->maim->heavy swing->skull sunder->heavy swing->skull sunder->Fracture.
That's not spamming by today's standards. You can't run that without emptying the tank. There's no room for other strategy. High TP rotations (net loss TP) and low TP rotations (net gain TP) are much better solutions than what you propose and what's in phase 3.
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#26 Jun 17 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Ok, so it's good game design to be able to spam your skills to no end without care whatsoever? Sorry, I disagree. Like I said, maybe if you had actually played some other classes and learned some cross-class skills... like the lancer ability that restores 300tp every 3 minutes, you'd have liked it more. Or maybe if you understood the concept of conservation of resources in a game, you wouldn't have that problem. To me, it just sounds like you don't understand how to manage your abilities well. That's not a fault of the game, it's a fault of the player.


So to you it's good game design to stand there. That doesn't make any sense, even if you try to spin standing there as strategy. You're standing there in a video game. Warriors won't be able to use lancer abilities. They can use Invigorate. It will not help much, 300 tp is enough to fuel a simple rotation for less than a minute.

Sounds like the sweet spot for management and strategy for you caps out at standing there. I dunno. This isn't strategy to me. It's just boring. To me, strategy would be to know when to switch to a rotation that gains me tp back, and when to use higher-powered rotations.

If you just want to decide when to start and stop doing things, I suppose that counts as strategy too. Boring. Simple. But strategy.
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#27 Jun 17 2013 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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Back in XI, a BLM had to deliberately hold back damage unless they wanted to end up as a grease stain on the ground within 30 seconds of a fight. We learned to count to ten in between low level nukes, and to simply stick with our highest damage spell with its natural 45 second cooldown at endgame.

What I'm hoping for is fights that call for some kind of strategy. Say, you're fighting a boss with wings, and he only takes physical damage when his wings are open. So the DPS stand around while the nukers carefully take him down, then when his wings open you just unload. Then his wings close again, and you have to disengage because you'll start restoring his HP. (This kind of fight was pretty annoying common in Abyssea bosses in FFXI.) You regain all your TP while you wait your turn.

Yeah, you'll be standing around not doing anything a lot. That's called being part of a team. You don't get to be the star all the time.
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#28 Jun 17 2013 at 1:14 PM Rating: Default
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Catwho wrote:
Back in XI, a BLM had to deliberately hold back damage unless they wanted to end up as a grease stain on the ground within 30 seconds of a fight. We learned to count to ten in between low level nukes, and to simply stick with our highest damage spell with its natural 45 second cooldown at endgame.

What I'm hoping for is fights that call for some kind of strategy. Say, you're fighting a boss with wings, and he only takes physical damage when his wings are open. So the DPS stand around while the nukers carefully take him down, then when his wings open you just unload. Then his wings close again, and you have to disengage because you'll start restoring his HP. (This kind of fight was pretty annoying common in Abyssea bosses in FFXI.) You regain all your TP while you wait your turn.

Yeah, you'll be standing around not doing anything a lot. That's called being part of a team. You don't get to be the star all the time.


Standards for MMO entertainment were lower back then. Today, you can design a strategy of conservation in better ways. In FFXI, you all consider doing nothing versus doing something strategy. Today, they consider doing more versus doing something. Same component of strategy. You just aren't standing there, proud of yourself that you're not a spamming drk or blm.

Times have changed. We are past being proud of ourselves that we aren't spamming dark knights.
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#29 Jun 17 2013 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Ok, so it's good game design to be able to spam your skills to no end without care whatsoever? Sorry, I disagree. Like I said, maybe if you had actually played some other classes and learned some cross-class skills... like the lancer ability that restores 300tp every 3 minutes, you'd have liked it more. Or maybe if you understood the concept of conservation of resources in a game, you wouldn't have that problem. To me, it just sounds like you don't understand how to manage your abilities well. That's not a fault of the game, it's a fault of the player.


So to you it's good game design to stand there. That doesn't make any sense, even if you try to spin standing there as strategy. You're standing there in a video game. Warriors won't be able to use lancer abilities. They can use Invigorate. It will not help much, 300 tp is enough to fuel a simple rotation for less than a minute.

Sounds like the sweet spot for management and strategy for you caps out at standing there. I dunno. This isn't strategy to me. It's just boring. To me, strategy would be to know when to switch to a rotation that gains me tp back, and when to use higher-powered rotations.

If you just want to decide when to start and stop doing things, I suppose that counts as strategy too. Boring. Simple. But strategy.


Who said anything about standing there? I just think your rotation is just too TP heavy. I mean, your entire rotation consists of 3 abilities. You are pigeonholing yourself into this TP starvation by not using other abilities or cross-class abilities properly. Did you ever stop and think, gee, I'm running out of TP really fast... perhaps I might want to switch up my rotation to something less taxing. You mentioned this in your post, but did you ever even try to DO it? It sure doesn't sound like it. It sounds like you just tried your rotation, ran out of TP, and came to the forums to complain about it.

I'd rather have a class where I actually have to concentrate on my TP management in order to maximize my DPS and sustainability, than to just constantly be able to spam my top-end abilities without any fear of running out of resources. Almost every mmo I've ever played requires resource management, and you can't just constantly spam your top damage abilities. That's the entire point of having a set amount of resources. It's not poor game design like you seem to think. It's a built in threshold to stop people from just abusing certain skills and neglecting everything else. If that's not strategy to you, I think you're in the wrong genre.
#30 Jun 17 2013 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
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benjjjamin wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Back in XI, a BLM had to deliberately hold back damage unless they wanted to end up as a grease stain on the ground within 30 seconds of a fight. We learned to count to ten in between low level nukes, and to simply stick with our highest damage spell with its natural 45 second cooldown at endgame.

What I'm hoping for is fights that call for some kind of strategy. Say, you're fighting a boss with wings, and he only takes physical damage when his wings are open. So the DPS stand around while the nukers carefully take him down, then when his wings open you just unload. Then his wings close again, and you have to disengage because you'll start restoring his HP. (This kind of fight was pretty annoying common in Abyssea bosses in FFXI.) You regain all your TP while you wait your turn.

Yeah, you'll be standing around not doing anything a lot. That's called being part of a team. You don't get to be the star all the time.


Standards for MMO entertainment were lower back then. Today, you can design a strategy of conservation in better ways. In FFXI, you all consider doing nothing versus doing something strategy. Today, they consider doing more versus doing something. Same component of strategy. You just aren't standing there, proud of yourself that you're not a spamming drk or blm.

Times have changed. We are past being proud of ourselves that we aren't spamming dark knights.


Thing is, there are things you can do that don't involve being engaged with the monster. In FFXI, A DRK/SAM could pop Meditation and have a WS ready and loaded to go. A SAM/WAR could pop Meditation, then Shikikoya to pass the extra TP along to a fellow party member. A MNK could boost up a few times in preparation. A THF/DNC could run in and tap for extra TH then run back out again.

The melee not taking active damage gives your healers a chance to re-buff you instead of spamming cures on you. It also cuts down on traffic in the log, so if there's any ability to be stunned, the DRK who is currently not engaged has a shot at actually seeing the JA fly by in the log.

If you absolutely must be engaged and fighting every single second of a dungeon, then I'm not sure you're the right audience for an MMORPG.
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#31 Jun 17 2013 at 1:24 PM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
benjjjamin wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Ok, so it's good game design to be able to spam your skills to no end without care whatsoever? Sorry, I disagree. Like I said, maybe if you had actually played some other classes and learned some cross-class skills... like the lancer ability that restores 300tp every 3 minutes, you'd have liked it more. Or maybe if you understood the concept of conservation of resources in a game, you wouldn't have that problem. To me, it just sounds like you don't understand how to manage your abilities well. That's not a fault of the game, it's a fault of the player.


So to you it's good game design to stand there. That doesn't make any sense, even if you try to spin standing there as strategy. You're standing there in a video game. Warriors won't be able to use lancer abilities. They can use Invigorate. It will not help much, 300 tp is enough to fuel a simple rotation for less than a minute.

Sounds like the sweet spot for management and strategy for you caps out at standing there. I dunno. This isn't strategy to me. It's just boring. To me, strategy would be to know when to switch to a rotation that gains me tp back, and when to use higher-powered rotations.

If you just want to decide when to start and stop doing things, I suppose that counts as strategy too. Boring. Simple. But strategy.


Who said anything about standing there? I just think your rotation is just too TP heavy. I mean, your entire rotation consists of 3 abilities. You are pigeonholing yourself into this TP starvation by not using other abilities or cross-class abilities properly. Did you ever stop and think, gee, I'm running out of TP really fast... perhaps I might want to switch up my rotation to something less taxing. You mentioned this in your post, but did you ever even try to DO it? It sure doesn't sound like it. It sounds like you just tried your rotation, ran out of TP, and came to the forums to complain about it.

I'd rather have a class where I actually have to concentrate on my TP management in order to maximize my DPS and sustainability, than to just constantly be able to spam my top-end abilities without any fear of running out of resources. Almost every mmo I've ever played requires resource management, and you can't just constantly spam your top damage abilities. That's the entire point of having a set amount of resources. It's not poor game design like you seem to think. It's a built in threshold to stop people from just abusing certain skills and neglecting everything else. If that's not strategy to you, I think you're in the wrong genre.


If you think level 1, 4, 6, and 10 abilities are the "top-end" abilities, you are DEFINITELY in the wrong genre.
Cross-class abilities are not the solution to a basic entry level class rotation that can't even run.

What I consider the bare minimum of occupation you consider spamming. This is your top gear. This is my 2nd gear. I expect conservation as a strategy to employ tiers of output, one of which is not standing there. You don't expect that.

I expect the same things you do. You just seem to want lower-quality forms of it.
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#32 Jun 17 2013 at 1:34 PM Rating: Default
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Catwho wrote:

If you absolutely must be engaged and fighting every single second of a dungeon, then I'm not sure you're the right audience for an MMORPG.


MMORPG audiences won't tolerate this system. JRPG audiences will. FFXI audiences will. No, if you don't want to be fighting every second to second and a half GCD, with OGCD in between, I would say the same to you with WoW, Rift, and almost every other MMO that isn't FFXI as evidence that you may not be right for an MMORPG.

I am not sure a MMORPG is what you think it is. It is not FFXI. Not any more. You may be talking about modern action MMOs, which aren't doing well. No one is petitioning for that. You can still develop strategy MMO's with a system up to twice as fast as the current one. The PS3 players can keep up.
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#33 Jun 17 2013 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
If you think level 1, 4, 6, and 10 abilities are the "top-end" abilities, you are DEFINITELY in the wrong genre.
Cross-class abilities are not the solution to a basic entry level class rotation that can't even run.

What I consider the bare minimum of occupation you consider spamming. This is your top gear. This is my 2nd gear. I expect conservation as a strategy to employ tiers of output, one of which is not standing there. You don't expect that.

I expect the same things you do. You just seem to want lower-quality forms of it.


Smiley: lol Then why are you spamming them in your rotation? Clearly your rotation fails since you can't manage your TP, and you aren't even using top-tier skills. Perhaps instead of constantly ramming your fingers on 111111222222233333222222444444, or whatever your order is, you should actually take a look at your TP, take a look at some of your other skills, and go from there. For instance, did you realize you could equip Internal Release from pug, which grants a 20%, 15s crit increase on a 60s CD? So basically, you could set yourself up for your mass-DPS rotation, throw on internal release and spam your highest DPS rotation. Then when it's over, you'll most likely need to cure up, so you could either cast Cure from conjurer, or pop second wind, and go to your lesser TP rotation.

Instead of just constantly spamming your attacks at a furious pace, you slow down a bit, give a second or two between each command, and let your TP start to accumulate (or at least not drop more). Then when your minute is up, start it over again.

Or if you are tanking, apply the same idea but replace internal release with something from gladiator, like flash, or convalescence, or something. Throw in more abilities that consume less TP, but offer other buffing/debuffing/healing effects.

The whole point of cross-class abilities is to provide you with a means of better manipulating a weakness of your character. If that happens to be TP regeneration, use those abilities to frontload your damage and then you can ease off when they aren't up. Not everything has to be a spamfest like you seem to think. Again, that's not a strategy, that's just mindless number mashing.
#34 Jun 17 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Default
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Marauder has no other cheaper skills to 20. It has more expensive skills. Tomahawk and Overpower.
Crit from pug won't help tp gain.
I'm certainly not curing on marauder, as that time can be better spend doing my job.

I expect all disciples of war to have a basic rotation on the GCD that will not bottom out. I expect all disciples of war to have improved rotations that will bottom out. I can cast all of those abilities you mention in between GCD's in those rotations. That's actually the modern standard.

I don't mean to peg you as an 80 year old going 45 on the highway, white knuckling the steering wheel, but slow down? Are you kidding me? lol....
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#35 Jun 17 2013 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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MRD is SUPPOSED to have expensive TP moves. It's the same as adding a long delay to a weapon with higher dmg. You are being throttled on your dmg, and by spamming all your abilities at once, you are left exhausted in 30 seconds.

Are you aware that these moves are a higher potency than other class's skills at the same level? again, your rotation should be have some auto attacks in there, some self buffs, pace yourself slugger.

Guess what I don't want: To be constantly pressing a button. This isn't Street fighter 2 Turbo Championship Addition. Dynasty Warriors is what you're looking for, maybe?

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 4:02pm by Louiscool
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#36 Jun 17 2013 at 2:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I don't mean to peg you as an 80 year old going 45 on the highway, white knuckling the steering wheel, but slow down? Are you kidding me? lol....


Clearly you've never played lotro.. or ffxi... or swtor, where resource management is built into the game and you can't just go full throttle all the time. Try running a sorc in swtor and see how quick you run out of focus just spamming your abilities. Try running a hunter in lotro. If I sound like an 80-year old going 45 on the highway, then you sound like a 16 year old driving daddies corvette and wondering why you crashed headfirst into the wall when you were going 120.If you don't want to deal with resource management, go back to a game where it doesn't exist.

There are plenty of games out there, many of them current, that require it as a part of the skill of playing the class. It's not my fault you aren't capable of it or choose to ignore it. I gave you several options on how to avoid running out, instead you just want to keep your foot all the way down on the pedal without a care in the world. That's cool, there are games that will cater to that, so go play them. I'm completely content with managing my resources and not just spamming everything I can get my hands on simply because it's there.

Anyways, think whatever you want. You think it's bad design to resource manage, I think it's just as silly to constantly spam. I don't think it's bad design, because I'm not too stubborn to understand that there are varying ways to design a game, all of which can be effective. Hopefully some day you can learn that and enjoy a game for what it is.
#37 Jun 17 2013 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Back in XI, a BLM had to deliberately hold back damage unless they wanted to end up as a grease stain on the ground within 30 seconds of a fight. We learned to count to ten in between low level nukes, and to simply stick with our highest damage spell with its natural 45 second cooldown at endgame.


Another example of that was pre-nerf RNG. If all you did was spam ranged attacks, you would be dead the second your shadows dropped. Instead, you often had to really hold back and be incredibly careful with your weapon skills. Even after the nerf, RNG still had that problem during exp.

Regarding benjjjamin, try to think of it like a fighting game. If you can win every fight just by button mashing, then it's not a very good game. Blocking and positioning tend to be very important factors in those types of games. In the case of FFXIV, you have limitations put in place in order to make the game more challenging. SE wants you to both plan and think about what you're going to do during a battle. They don't want you to just stand there spamming the same few abilities when there are so many other options available.


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#38 Jun 17 2013 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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FrozenSherbet wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Back in XI, a BLM had to deliberately hold back damage unless they wanted to end up as a grease stain on the ground within 30 seconds of a fight. We learned to count to ten in between low level nukes, and to simply stick with our highest damage spell with its natural 45 second cooldown at endgame.


Another example of that was pre-nerf RNG. If all you did was spam ranged attacks, you would be dead the second your shadows dropped. Instead, you often had to really hold back and be incredibly careful with your weapon skills. Even after the nerf, RNG still had that problem during exp.

Regarding benjjjamin, try to think of it like a fighting game. If you can win every fight just by button mashing, then it's not a very good game. Blocking and positioning tend to be very important factors in those types of games. In the case of FFXIV, you have limitations put in place in order to make the game more challenging. SE wants you to both plan and think about what you're going to do during a battle. They don't want you to just stand there spamming the same few abilities when there are so many other options available.




Pre-nerf? ****, even POST-nerf of Rng!

Rng/War 55+ was the most nerve-wracking experience I had in FFXI. Time that Sidewinder poorly and it's a dirt nap for you. I had to hold back all the time with a Nin tank, and those glorious days when you got a GOOD pld tank... oh man.. That be some dead-*** colibri.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 4:41pm by Louiscool
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#39 Jun 17 2013 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
FrozenSherbet wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Back in XI, a BLM had to deliberately hold back damage unless they wanted to end up as a grease stain on the ground within 30 seconds of a fight. We learned to count to ten in between low level nukes, and to simply stick with our highest damage spell with its natural 45 second cooldown at endgame.


Another example of that was pre-nerf RNG. If all you did was spam ranged attacks, you would be dead the second your shadows dropped. Instead, you often had to really hold back and be incredibly careful with your weapon skills. Even after the nerf, RNG still had that problem during exp.

Regarding benjjjamin, try to think of it like a fighting game. If you can win every fight just by button mashing, then it's not a very good game. Blocking and positioning tend to be very important factors in those types of games. In the case of FFXIV, you have limitations put in place in order to make the game more challenging. SE wants you to both plan and think about what you're going to do during a battle. They don't want you to just stand there spamming the same few abilities when there are so many other options available.




Pre-nerf? ****, even POST-nerf of Rng!

Rng/War 55+ was the most nerve-wracking experience I had in FFXI. Time that Sidewinder poorly and it's a dirt nap for you. I had to hold back all the time with a Nin tank, and those glorious days when you got a GOOD pld tank... oh man.. That be some dead-*** colibri.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 4:41pm by Louiscool


Pretty much any DPS worked this way once they got their big ticket WS. Sam/rng with soboro was unbelievably fun, but deadly if the fights lasted longer than seigan did. Thankfully they almost never did... Sidewinder > meditate > Sidewinder > Sidewinder in a 8s window killed pretty much anything that moved. Smiley: grin

Same for warrior pre-74. If you subbed ninja, a good rampage would rip hate off and you'd tank til the mob died. When shadows went down, you were in trouble. Drk, use SE>guillotine and you could kill yourself before even finishing the WS animation. Smiley: lol
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#40 Jun 17 2013 at 2:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Keep in mind that Final Fantasy is a social game. The idea is to communicate, work with your party, avoid attacks, position yourself. There is far more to combat than stand infront of the mob and hit each other until one falls down.

Spamming buttons in an MMO is not something that I will play, and I like the fact that this game does not require it. Yeah, as a gla, I need to use my mp combo nearly constantly to keep my flash up, and when I have enough of a gap inbetween, or the mob count is low enough, switch to my damage combo. And depending on the situation stun, buff my def, call out a limit break, pop an ether or hi-pot depending on if the mage trades focus to the kiter, or I needed to damage spike for the kill-zerg, or the dink mobs begin swarming, and I need to use flash after each ws.

There is a lot even at a low level, with very little in the way of abilities that I am constantly debating, and determining what is the best thing to do in the current situation.

With all the fights being new to me, and no known strats, it is flying by the seat of your pants combat, adjusting to the situation as you go.

Now with that said, nothing is too difficult, it only takes 1-2 tries to figure things out, and once you have it down, you can hold to it. But, I have run out of MP and TP as a gla in battle the mob swarm in Copperbell, as well as the ooze fight there. It required a really good understanding of what to expect and when to expect it. We charged in, and kept fighting, while we had people trying different things to determine how to handle the fight, and all the while, I was running around trying to collect the mobs, and keep them on me and off the mage. This cut back on mp and tp regain as I was non-stop spamming mp ws and flash to the point my tp pool was dropping too low, and I would just use flash while I waiting on mp, at which point my mp pool would go low so I would burn my tp to get mp... it was an impressive drain on what until then felt like an endless supply of both.
#41 Jun 17 2013 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
FrozenSherbet wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Back in XI, a BLM had to deliberately hold back damage unless they wanted to end up as a grease stain on the ground within 30 seconds of a fight. We learned to count to ten in between low level nukes, and to simply stick with our highest damage spell with its natural 45 second cooldown at endgame.


Another example of that was pre-nerf RNG. If all you did was spam ranged attacks, you would be dead the second your shadows dropped. Instead, you often had to really hold back and be incredibly careful with your weapon skills. Even after the nerf, RNG still had that problem during exp.

Regarding benjjjamin, try to think of it like a fighting game. If you can win every fight just by button mashing, then it's not a very good game. Blocking and positioning tend to be very important factors in those types of games. In the case of FFXIV, you have limitations put in place in order to make the game more challenging. SE wants you to both plan and think about what you're going to do during a battle. They don't want you to just stand there spamming the same few abilities when there are so many other options available.




Pre-nerf? ****, even POST-nerf of Rng!

Rng/War 55+ was the most nerve-wracking experience I had in FFXI. Time that Sidewinder poorly and it's a dirt nap for you. I had to hold back all the time with a Nin tank, and those glorious days when you got a GOOD pld tank... oh man.. That be some dead-*** colibri.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 4:41pm by Louiscool


Pretty much any DPS worked this way once they got their big ticket WS. Sam/rng with soboro was unbelievably fun, but deadly if the fights lasted longer than seigan did. Thankfully they almost never did... Sidewinder > meditate > Sidewinder > Sidewinder in a 8s window killed pretty much anything that moved. Smiley: grin

Same for warrior pre-74. If you subbed ninja, a good rampage would rip hate off and you'd tank til the mob died. When shadows went down, you were in trouble. Drk, use SE>guillotine and you could kill yourself before even finishing the WS animation. Smiley: lol


One thing I really liked to do was to have two WAR/NINs tank pre-74. A lot of WARs I partied with would refuse to do it, but it was a fun way to tank. Between Provoke, Warcry, and Rampage, it was really easy to swap hate back and forth. Add to the fact that WARs could take a hit way better than NINs, it was a great way to go.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 4:54pm by FrozenSherbet
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#42 Jun 17 2013 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
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FrozenSherbert wrote:
One thing I really liked to do was to have two WAR/NINs tank pre-74. A lot of WARs I partied with would refuse to do it, but it was a really fun way to tank. Between Provoke, Warcry, and Rampage, it was really easy to swap hate back and forth. Add to the fact that WARs could take a hit way better than NINs, it was really a great way to go.


Absolutely, I loved doing this as well. It was an excellent and effective alternative to having a nin or pld tank. It's unfortunate that a lot of players did refuse to do it, as it was extremely efficient if done properly. War 1 vokes, shadow, shadow, shadow/ichi, shadow, shadow, shadow, war 2 vokes, repeat.... first gets ichi up, rampage, second gets ichi up, rampage, mob dead... every time.

Of course, as soon as I capped my GA, I swapped to that and never looked back. 2.5k Raging Rushes were just so **** after the 2h buff. Using the Sea GA that required the virtue stones and had the 50% double attack to it was just so much fun when /sam. It was a WS every 5-10s. Well, this topic has officially been sidetracked.
#43benjjjamin, Posted: Jun 17 2013 at 3:34 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I never had a problem going 120 in FFXI on warrior after initial threat building. Then again, we kindof pitched fun at Soboro sams so I dunno. Get better tanks? We shouldn't be expected to slow down the new genre's standards for some ffxi vets. There aren't enough of them.
#44 Jun 17 2013 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
I never had a problem going 120 in FFXI on warrior after initial threat building. Then again, we kindof pitched fun at Soboro sams so I dunno. Get better tanks? We shouldn't be expected to slow down the new genre's standards for some ffxi vets. There aren't enough of them.

Judging by the response on the beta forums, from the top ls's down, it probably will be changed. I'm sorry you need this much time. The genre has left you behind.


If you didn't have problems going full throttle on Warrior after "initial hate building" (which clearly shows you don't understand a damned thing about how the enmity system worked in FFXI to begin with), then your 120 was really pathetic. Even before Abyssea blew the doors off and showed everyone how badly flawed it was Warrior was a damage and threat machine and if you didn't have any problems at all then clearly you weren't pulling your weight.

And I can state this with a 100% fact because the enmity system hadn't changed from launch until about two months ago: if you didn't have a problem going 120 on Warrior, you sucked. Badly.

~~~~~

BartelX is right; you sound like a whiney teenager that needs his speed fix. Go back to another MMO where resource management is an alien concept to you.

The fact that you're even mentioning this without full group buffs and endgame quality gear (with appropriate materia melding) is ridiculous in and of itself.




Edited, Jun 17th 2013 5:41pm by Viertel
#45benjjjamin, Posted: Jun 17 2013 at 3:43 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Where is it stated that marauder is supposed to be tp starved because of its potency...have you seen how much pugs and lancers out stdps the potency you claim is an advantage in phase 3? That doesn't make any sense. This is the mmo genre, louis. Abilities every second or less is the standard.
#46 Jun 17 2013 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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benjjjamin wrote:
I never had a problem going 120 in FFXI on warrior after initial threat building. Then again, we kindof pitched fun at Soboro sams so I dunno.


Don't worry, people often make fun of what they can't comprehend or don't understand. Just fyi, I also had a Hagun and pretty much any endgame gear that was available at 75 and was in the top NA endgame shell on Carbuncle. That didn't mean I didn't have fun and experiment in merit parties or while leveling up. Way to make ridiculous assumptions without knowing anything about me though.

benjjjamin wrote:
Judging by the response on the beta forums, from the top ls's down, it probably will be changed. I'm sorry you need this much time. The genre has left you behind.


Lol, that's a pretty sad troll attempt right there. Considering I've played pretty much every modern mmo out there, including endgame raiding in swtor, WoW, lotro, gw2 pvp (there really isn't pve endgame), etc... I don't think anything has left me behind. I just think you're being stubborn and refusing to see any other viewpoint and crying because you can't cope with a system that doesn't work exactly how you want it to. At least the one bonus is, if they do change it, I don't have to read your whine threads about how it's too tough for you to manage resources in a game.

Viertel wrote:

If you didn't have problems going full throttle on Warrior after "initial hate building" (which clearly shows you don't understand a damned thing about how the enmity system worked in FFXI to begin with), then your 120 was really pathetic. Even before Abyssea blew the doors off and showed everyone how badly flawed it was Warrior was a damage and threat machine and if you didn't have any problems at all then clearly you weren't pulling your weight.

And I can state this with a 100% fact because the enmity system hadn't changed from launch until about two months ago: if you didn't have a problem going 120 on Warrior, you sucked. Badly.


I was actually in the process of writing this exact thing when you posted.

Edited, Jun 17th 2013 5:49pm by BartelX
#47benjjjamin, Posted: Jun 17 2013 at 3:51 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) And yet I still had no trouble. If what you claim is true, then there was no reason to not invite thieves and drgs in ffxi from years 3-7. And yet there were reasons. My warrior certainly beat a soboro sam without dying. It sadly put out more than thf or drg without this needing to hold back that you all keep citing.
#48 Jun 17 2013 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
Sooooo... Rift's mindlessly spamming everything you have while being curebombed = strategy, while FFXIV's limits on abilites that force you to make choices in your behavior =/= strategy.

Smiley: rolleyes
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