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#1 Jun 24 2013 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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So now that I can talk about this with people, I'd like to get people's opinions on the stat allocation system.

For those unfamiliar, starting at level 10, you're awarded extra points to put into your base stats (STR, DEX, etc). I've only reached level 16 myself, but it seems like you get a point every level starting at 10.

What do you think of this system?

What do you think of stat allocation?
Love it:9 (13.8%)
It's fine:25 (38.5%)
Don't care:11 (16.9%)
Don't like it:11 (16.9%)
Kill it with fire:9 (13.8%)
Total:65


Please explain why you selected what you did. I'll wait a while before I give my own opinion.
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#2 Jun 24 2013 at 11:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think it's fine. I like the idea of being able to slightly customize my character, while keeping it reasonable (unlike 1.0). I like being able to pump in some extra str on my DPS classes. I'm not sure if it's incorporated yet, but the ability to reset these when you want to change classes is pretty important imo. Also, being able to save certain builds would be quite nice, especially at 50 when you've got 40 points to throw in. It still wouldn't be nearly as cumbersome as 1.0, but I wouldn't mind that little convenience.

I do wish there were tool tips in-game to tell you what each stat did though.
#3 Jun 24 2013 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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The stat point bonuses help compensate for the racial modifiers. They don't provide a significant boost, so they don't throw off the balance. But it does make it so that a Rogydin can be a mage as well as a lala can be a tank without having the same stat complaints that 11 had in the beginning.

However, there are a lot of people in the official forums that are complaining about these not being a merit point system. Which in my opinion is fine. That's what Jobs do. They provide significant bonuses to classes through abilities and trait modifiers as you "Level" your job. Leveling a job is done not only by leveling a class, but by completing quests.

This IMHO provides a fairly dynamic ability for the game to develop more not only through the addition of higher level caps, but by providing new quests to gain new abilities for Jobs, and thereby make them even stronger without needing to level. Those bonuses then would follow your job as you level it's primary and secondary classes (obviously the leveling of the secondary classes would not directly benefit, but the benefits of secondary classes compile against the benefits of the primary based on the abilities you choose).
#4 Jun 24 2013 at 11:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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My answer was a resounding "meh".
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#5 Jun 24 2013 at 12:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Feels like a system carry-over from 1.0 that didn't get revamped because it would have drained too many resources.

Would it be nice to have a better customization system in place? Obviously. Who doesn't want better stuff?

Is it necessary right now? Not in my opinion.
#6 Jun 24 2013 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's every other level after the initial 3 you get at level 10.

I think it could stand to be improved upon, but it's not dire. A little lackluster, but kindof nice to at least have the option.
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#7 Jun 24 2013 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd be fine with it if there was a way to reallocate points. I'm not saying I should have the option to do reallocate every time I change jobs, but if I decide that, after getting my blm to 50, I want to take mrd from 1 to 50, it would be nice not to have 20 points in int and piety.
#8 Jun 24 2013 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
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It should be noted that I did some checking on this in phase 2, and at least at that time the stat points you allocated were on a per-job basis. So your conjurer can have one set of stat points and your archer had another.

I don't have a second class above 10 in p3, so I don't know if that's continued.
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#9 Jun 24 2013 at 1:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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This was one of the things that made Dark Souls interesting. If you chose to level up, you'd get one stat allocation per level. This meant you couldn't get everything for your character and you had to decide what was important. It also meant if you wanted to try something different (using heavy weapons instead of mage spells for example), you had to start a new character because there was no way to undo stat allocation.

I'm not sure how well it will work in a game like FFXIV however. Classes are a lot less customizable than they were in the past and a lot more specialized. I don't know if there is much point in a mage having the option to choose more strength, for example, if each class gets its own separate allocation of stats. Mages (magi?) are so poor at physical combat it seems more like a booby trap than a feature that offers a legitimate choice.
#10 Jun 24 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Each job has it's own set of stats. So you don't have to worry about switching between DoM and DoW classes and having your stats be all cold bass honky.

The merit though is a bit lackluster as they've separated core damage dealing DoM and DoW spells which means little to most classes other than tanks who might benefit from diminishing returns in dex, str, and vit. The drawback to stat allocation (especially one without a reset via gil/items) is that it penalizes players early on who don't know what the outcome will be. You won't notice that +3 mind now, but maybe at 50 you'll be regretting it when that 3 mind scales completely differently than it does at lvl 12. The last thing a new player needs is to be kicked from a dungeon because he spent his points wrong and there's nothing within the system to fix that other than starting a whole new character.
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#11 Jun 24 2013 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
It should be noted that I did some checking on this in phase 2, and at least at that time the stat points you allocated were on a per-job basis. So your conjurer can have one set of stat points and your archer had another.

I don't have a second class above 10 in p3, so I don't know if that's continued.

I leveled a variety of classes this past weekend and that looked to be the case. A separate set of attributes for each class rather than 1 global one.
#12 Jun 24 2013 at 2:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have a feeling that they will allow you to re-allocate points in the release version for a fee. Seeing as how they have the button for it and want several gil-sinks in the game.
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#13 Jun 24 2013 at 2:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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A reset button is needed for a system like that to thrive. There needs to be incentive for players to mix stats around and create different builds. If it's a one-stop-shop to 50, there are fewer opportunities to experiment, and the outcomes will be all but pre-determined meaning there really isn't a choice in the equation.

I suspect we'll see it in the form of an increasing fee. Like maybe 100gil first time, 1000 gil 2nd, 10,000 gil 3rd, with the "counter" resetting with a month in the current set of stats.
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#14 Jun 24 2013 at 2:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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They seem to have just chucked this in for people to feel like they're customising their characters to make them unique with little explaination of how much the change in stats will actually do.
#15 Jun 24 2013 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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They added a feature towards the end of 1.0 where there was an item that you were given when you completed all your job quests. That Item could be used to trigger a point reset.

The reset in the UI is for active changes. So, if you allocate a bunch of points, but decide you want to change, you can click the reset, and the points re-pooled. Once you apply your point changes, the points become fixed.

Yoshi had previously stated that there would be ways of obtaining more of the point reset item, but it never made it in 1.0... So, it could be speculated that they planned on continuing the system that way in ARR.
#16 Jun 24 2013 at 2:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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So this seems like a reasonable number of replies before I post my own opinion. And the poll at this point is almost dead even on all the choices... which is interesting too.

Personally, I hate this system. The reason I hate it is because it's nothing but a trap. The only thing it can accomplish is making new players bad at their jobs.

Think about it.. let's say I'm playing a DRG. I'm a dps, my job has no other roles, therefore if I spend my points on anything other than maximizing my damage, I'm doing it wrong. But how do I even do that? Well I'd need to know how much damage each point of a stat translates into, and then pick the highest one.. but what if certain stats benefit different abilities differently? So now I have to maximize around a rotation that is going to change as I level up. My skills and dps rotation at level 50 are going to be entirely different than my rotation at level 15.

Especially with no way to fix it except re-rolling. Though that's a fairly mundane problem to solve. This entire system is a relic of 1.0, and it was bad then too.

This gets even more ridiculous when you consider that future patches will buff and nerf abilities over time, so the ideal stat distribution will actually change as the game ages.
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#17 Jun 24 2013 at 2:59 PM Rating: Good
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How many points do you have to play with at level 50? At level 15 you have 5, not a lot to invest. My thoughts are that it's OK, it gives you something to muck about with, but it's not a compelling system. If you're a min/maxer then yes, you'll want to dump all your points into something, but maybe...just maybe...there will be enough gear to offset your choices. So you can be a THM and drop most of the points into INT, but with mixing and matching gear/materia you're not gimped playing your GLD. So I voted "fine" until I see what's out there at level 50.
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#18 Jun 24 2013 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
How many points do you have to play with at level 50?

30 total. Little enough to make no difference. And enough to give you the illusion that, intheory, you could put those points into
- something else than MND as a conjurer
- something else than INT as a thaumaturge
- something else than STR as a melee class and
- something else than DEX as an archer.

People love the illusion of choice, as long as the system ensures that no wrong choices are possible.
#19 Jun 24 2013 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's just ok. It's nice to have something to personaize your character a little more but I do wish that they would tell you what the primary stats are that your class uses because newcomers to MMOs might be easily confused without a detailed account of what exatly each stat does.
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#20 Jun 24 2013 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
How many points do you have to play with at level 50?

30 total. Little enough to make no difference. And enough to give you the illusion that, intheory, you could put those points into
- something else than MND as a conjurer
- something else than INT as a thaumaturge
- something else than STR as a melee class and
- something else than DEX as an archer.

People love the illusion of choice, as long as the system ensures that no wrong choices are possible.


But you absolutely CAN do it wrong.

Let's say I'm a PLD.. would I be better off wearing a piece of gear that gives me +30 VIT or +30 INT? VIT obviously.. right? (right?) And there's no question that having 30 extra in my VIT is more useful to me than 30 extra in INT.

It's not an insubstantial amount. And it's not enough to make up for racial differences either because someone who's the "right" race is STILL going to have the advantage in stats if both he and the person playing the "wrong" race both put their points in the right stats.
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#21 Jun 24 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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I like it. It's a fun RPG feature I enjoy in offline games and remember from EQ. My only concern is min/max phobia. As pug, how long do I stack strength? Until I start missing? Do I try to keep a balance with str./dex.? What if I'm not doing enough damage? Stats become permanent and potentially an albatross to your main character.

Like I said I enjoy it. I am however, wary of players being shunned from endgame for making risky or even safe decisions. To find out that your main "did it wrong" would not be a fun feeling.
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#22 Jun 24 2013 at 6:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's garbage.

The system is bland and seems pretty pointless. All it does it give people a way to gimp their character.

Quote:
30 total. Little enough to make no difference. And enough to give you the illusion that, in theory, you could put those points into
- something else than MND as a conjurer
- something else than INT as a thaumaturge
- something else than STR as a melee class and
- something else than DEX as an archer.


^ This. Putting those points into the non-optimal stats is only holding your character back. In a party situation having all the points in the optimal stat is going to be the best choice. And for solo, the amount of points is so little that it isn't likely to make a difference between chaining enemies, dying, or completing content that you could not have otherwise.

If they REALLY want to give us the ability to customize our characters they would let us put those points to upgrading the traits that we have. Basically each trait has anywhere from 1-5 points that can be assigned to it to increase effect somehow - totaling, I don't know...50 total across all of them. With the 30 points we're given, we could pick and choose which abilities to make extra better (0.o). I guess it would be similar to merits but I never got to that point in FFXI so I'm not sure how that worked.
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#23 Jun 24 2013 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
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I'm kind of Meh. It takes away one of the great benefits of XIV, playing all the classes/jobs on one character. You can either use it to "balance" your character out, making you MUCH weaker than an already superior starting race at a specific class/job, or you can also use it to "buff" your job/class/race specific stats, essentially making your already superior race at X class/job even moreso. It almost seems as if they gave us those 8* slots knowing the hardcore end game shells would be Racist :P

*edited w/ correct amount of character slots per world.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 8:12pm by burtonsnow
#24 Jun 24 2013 at 6:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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burtonsnow wrote:
I'm kind of Meh. It takes away one of the great benefits of XIV, playing all the classes/jobs on one character. You can either use it to "balance" your character out, making you MUCH weaker than an already superior starting race at a specific class/job, or you can also use it to "buff" your job/class/race specific stats, essentially making your already superior race at X class/job even moreso. It almost seems as if they gave us those 8* slots knowing the hardcore end game shells would be Racist :P

*edited w/ correct amount of character slots per world.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 8:12pm by burtonsnow


-laughs-

Realistically any and every class you choose has their own stat allotment. So point for point you shouldn't wind up any worse or better than you normally would if allocating similarly.
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#25 Jun 24 2013 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
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burtonsnow wrote:
I'm kind of Meh. It takes away one of the great benefits of XIV, playing all the classes/jobs on one character. You can either use it to "balance" your character out, making you MUCH weaker than an already superior starting race at a specific class/job, or you can also use it to "buff" your job/class/race specific stats, essentially making your already superior race at X class/job even moreso. It almost seems as if they gave us those 8* slots knowing the hardcore end game shells would be Racist :P

*edited w/ correct amount of character slots per world.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 8:12pm by burtonsnow


I'd like to repeat this just for clarity. It should also be noted that in 23 posts, this has come up a bunch of times.

The system is not adequately explained in the game, leading to a ton of confusion about how it works.

Stat points are allocated class by class. Your archer has different stat allocations than your thaumaturge. Someone confirmed for us up there that this is still the case.

So you don't have to be concerned about your conjurer stats gimping your gladiator, that's not a thing. But it does highlight how poorly this system is explained to people.

I'm all for character customization. I thought the merit point system in FFXI was pretty cool, although there were still some clear choices to make, and those COULD gimp your off-jobs (how many hand-to-hand merits does my BLM need again?). I much prefer the classes to be self-contained. I feel like it's the only way a class system like this can really work without feeling like punishment.
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#26 Jun 24 2013 at 6:36 PM Rating: Good
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I wonder if it is explained some in all those help windows that pop up. I've been mostly ignoring them. There may have been one about this. -shrugs-
#27 Jun 24 2013 at 6:44 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
burtonsnow wrote:
I'm kind of Meh. It takes away one of the great benefits of XIV, playing all the classes/jobs on one character. You can either use it to "balance" your character out, making you MUCH weaker than an already superior starting race at a specific class/job, or you can also use it to "buff" your job/class/race specific stats, essentially making your already superior race at X class/job even moreso. It almost seems as if they gave us those 8* slots knowing the hardcore end game shells would be Racist :P

*edited w/ correct amount of character slots per world.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 8:12pm by burtonsnow


I'd like to repeat this just for clarity. It should also be noted that in 23 posts, this has come up a bunch of times.

The system is not adequately explained in the game, leading to a ton of confusion about how it works.

Stat points are allocated class by class. Your archer has different stat allocations than your thaumaturge. Someone confirmed for us up there that this is still the case.

So you don't have to be concerned about your conjurer stats gimping your gladiator, that's not a thing. But it does highlight how poorly this system is explained to people.

I'm all for character customization. I thought the merit point system in FFXI was pretty cool, although there were still some clear choices to make, and those COULD gimp your off-jobs (how many hand-to-hand merits does my BLM need again?). I much prefer the classes to be self-contained. I feel like it's the only way a class system like this can really work without feeling like punishment.


My mistake for not reading the whole thread through.


Still doesn't take away from the fact that each class/job will be better based on the races starting stats. As a THM my concern isn't about HP, although enough to stay alive is good, and most of my stat points will go to increasing dps. As an endgame shell leader I'm going to want the most efficient race for their selected job...that just how it goes.

*edit*
As an example, in XI Taru BLM were bar non the best. If I remember correctly many of those top tier shells tried to specifically recruit the correct race/class combos.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 8:46pm by burtonsnow
#28 Jun 24 2013 at 7:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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burtonsnow wrote:

My mistake for not reading the whole thread through.


Still doesn't take away from the fact that each class/job will be better based on the races starting stats. As a THM my concern isn't about HP, although enough to stay alive is good, and most of my stat points will go to increasing dps. As an endgame shell leader I'm going to want the most efficient race for their selected job...that just how it goes.

*edit*
As an example, in XI Taru BLM were bar non the best. If I remember correctly many of those top tier shells tried to specifically recruit the correct race/class combos.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 8:46pm by burtonsnow

It's not like XI where the disparity is significant and scales in that way as you level. Each race can do all the classes effectively.
#29 Jun 24 2013 at 7:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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My answer was a resounding "meh".

 
I guess to expand... I really see no issues with the addition of it, I see no problems with it, but I also don't see anything massive about it really. I am not sure how much my small amount of stat adjustments really were changing my performance. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. It's good, I guess.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 9:23pm by Pawkeshup
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#30 Jun 24 2013 at 7:31 PM Rating: Good
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I have a quesiton.... don't know if this was answered or not but here goes...


Let's say I want to be a blm, one of the strongest... Could l, in theory, add INT to my classes, like add INT to my Thaumaturge, and then when I'm out leveling my Marauder can I allocate INT points to him as well... Resulting in when I switch back to Thaumaturge all those points will still be added to my base INT? Is that how it works? Or are each class separated entirely?
#31 Jun 24 2013 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
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SirLuciousLeftfoot wrote:
I have a quesiton.... don't know if this was answered or not but here goes...


Let's say I want to be a blm, one of the strongest... Could l, in theory, add INT to my classes, like add INT to my Thaumaturge, and then when I'm out leveling my Marauder can I allocate INT points to him as well... Resulting in when I switch back to Thaumaturge all those points will still be added to my base INT? Is that how it works? Or are each class separated entirely?


Each class' stat bonuses are separate
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#32 Jun 24 2013 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Is that how it works? Or are each class separated entirely?


Each class is separate.

But really - I can't say that this system is any kind of good. Even if they allow respecs, they won't make a difference. As a BLM, if I'm in a group what point is there to assign points to anything but my damage stat? It's what I do? The game should just assign my points for me to that end.

I'm soloing as THM (I haven't yet spent my points) and getting smacked down by mobs, are points in VIT really a good idea? Do I really want to increase my HP to survive maybe 1-2 additional hits with my pitiful defense while leaving my damage as is? Or...do I want to put them into INT so that things die quicker than they can kill me?

I would much rather that the game just give me stat points that make sense each level and allow me to put points they give me into actually customizing my character. And that would be better accomplished by letting me augment the traits I have that enhance specific abilities. ****, some of them even increase stats - stats that matter to the class/job.
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#33 Jun 24 2013 at 9:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wouldn't mind seeing a "mini-merit" system for each job come 50 (possibly in addition to stat allocation). Let's say each job ability has 3 improvement ranks, and you get 6 "merit" points (for want of a better tern) to spend. There will still be "optimal" allocations, but a well-designed system could allow for some degree of flexibility.

Warrior would be a good example. Do you buff the weaponskills to boost DD, reduce the CD on the buffs for "oh ****" buttons, or increase the effectiveness of defiance (increased HP or enmity gain, decreased dmg penalty)? Maybe boost infuriate & SC for AoE burst. Defiance + unchained will allow a periodic dmg increase + the passive HP boost (and on a shorter CD too). Each would change how you tank/fight, and sublty alter your strengths. Yes, more "pure" roles will likely have more concrete choices, but there will still be options - hopefully.

And it was mentioned above about one of the drawbacks of the XI system - meriting weapon/magic/stats would have minimal impact on other jobs, or sometimes even negative (if you messed with the enmity settings, being a career PLD/NIN/BLM). Only having the job-specific abilities meritable will solve this issue. And it will (hopefully) work with 2 jobs/1 class - you have SMN merits, and you have SCH merits that are separate from each other (assuming you can level them both - but that's for another thread!).
#34 Jun 25 2013 at 12:57 AM Rating: Good
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Still doesn't take away from the fact that each class/job will be better based on the races starting stats.

Well, @50, the difference in damage done between a Shader (Duskwight in English?) and a Highlander BLM with the
same top-level equipment and if both investet all their points in INT on the most powerful spell (Flare) is pretty exactly...
one sec... 3 points.

3 points.

Out of an average of 429.

If your LS leader insists that you switch races because of 3 points of damage @LV50 (which amounts to .5 DPS total
considering cast and recast times for flare), and you accept these conditions, I think your LS leader is the perfect leader
a moron like you deserves. Smiley: laughSmiley: nod

#35 Jun 25 2013 at 2:20 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Still doesn't take away from the fact that each class/job will be better based on the races starting stats.

[/quote]

It was pretty infuriating leveling A Duskwight CNJ alongside my g/f's Highlander CNJ and her constantly having 50-70 HP more than me. Granted I leveled PUG and GLA first so my gear was pretty meh while leveling until about 15. After I got better gear it almost evened out, probably only a 20-30 point difference.

Still, during Irfrit I got one shotted in phase 2 (i moved out of the circles, but apparently not fast enough for server delay >.>) while everyone else in my party only took about 1/3 of their hp in damage. It would really suck if I have to start staking VIT later just for abilities that can't be avoided.

It should be noted that our tank in that fight proed it out and soloed the last 10~% with less than 100 HP.
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#36 Jun 25 2013 at 2:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I voted I don't like it, when we get a definite confirmation that there will be a way to reset them sometime in the near future, then I'll be ok with it.
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#37 Jun 25 2013 at 7:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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After going back through the manual and actually checking out what stats do, and how limited it seems they are, I'd like to change my opinion of this to do not like. I was under the impression that each stat had more effects, like dex increased accuracy and crit rate, str increased overall damage and and low/high end range caps, and vit increased defense, etc... but they are all extremely basic and almost singular in purpose. For instance:

Strength Increases melee attack power and the percentage of damage mitigated by block and parry.
Dexterity Increases ranged attack power and the chance of blocking or parrying an attack.
Vitality Increases maximum HP.
Intelligence Increases attack magic potency.
Mind Increases healing magic potency.
Piety Increases maximum MP.

So, for a tank you actually do have some choices... for a melee though? None whatsoever. You pump into str, and that's it. For a blm? Int only. Whm, mnd only (since MP is never an issue at higher levels) It really pigeonholes some of the classes. What I'd like to see is the ability to add the stat points into ANY of the categories, such as the stats or:

Accuracy Increases the accuracy of physical and magical attacks.
Critical Hit Rate Increases the probability that an attack will deal critical damage.
Determination Increases the amount of damage dealt by all attacks and the amount of HP recovered by spells.
Attack Power Increases the amount of damage dealt by physical attacks.
Skill Speed Reduces the recast time of weaponskills.
Attack Magic Potency Increases the amount of damage dealt by spells.
Healing Magic Potency Increases the amount of HP recovered by spells.
Spell Speed Reduces the cast and recast times of spells.
Defense Reduces the amount of damage received from physical attacks.
Parry Increases the probability that an attack will be blocked or parried.
Magic Defense Reduces the amount of damage received from magical attacks.

At least that would allow characters to diversify themselves more.
#38 Jun 25 2013 at 7:50 AM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
After going back through the manual and actually checking out what stats do, and how limited it seems they are, I'd like to change my opinion of this to do not like. I was under the impression that each stat had more effects, like dex increased accuracy and crit rate, str increased overall damage and and low/high end range caps, and vit increased defense, etc... but they are all extremely basic and almost singular in purpose. For instance:

Strength Increases melee attack power and the percentage of damage mitigated by block and parry.
Dexterity Increases ranged attack power and the chance of blocking or parrying an attack.
Vitality Increases maximum HP.
Intelligence Increases attack magic potency.
Mind Increases healing magic potency.
Piety Increases maximum MP.

So, for a tank you actually do have some choices... for a melee though? None whatsoever. You pump into str, and that's it. For a blm? Int only. Whm, mnd only (since MP is never an issue at higher levels) It really pigeonholes some of the classes. What I'd like to see is the ability to add the stat points into ANY of the categories, such as the stats or:

Accuracy Increases the accuracy of physical and magical attacks.
Critical Hit Rate Increases the probability that an attack will deal critical damage.
Determination Increases the amount of damage dealt by all attacks and the amount of HP recovered by spells.
Attack Power Increases the amount of damage dealt by physical attacks.
Skill Speed Reduces the recast time of weaponskills.
Attack Magic Potency Increases the amount of damage dealt by spells.
Healing Magic Potency Increases the ad that mount of HP recovered by spells.
Spell Speed Reduces the cast and recast times of spells.
Defense Reduces the amount of damage received from physical attacks.
Parry Increases the probability that an attack will be blocked or parried.
Magic Defense Reduces the amount of damage received from magical attacks.

At least that would allow characters to diversify themselves more.


Certainly happy my pug won't be rolling over. Missed that definition of dex. myself.
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#39 Jun 25 2013 at 9:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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In BETA forums there is an interesting idea from a member. Somehow I find this idea of Allocating points more interesting than allocating points to attributes. He basically explains a merit system in which you can increase the potency of certain actions somehow similar the way merits work in FFXI. I believe this is better for players to chose who they want to play their classes and jobs. Thus, a WAR player that wants to be a tank could enhance his/hers actions that affects tanking abilities, whereas a DD WAR could enhance his/hers offensive actions.

Pleaes refer to the following link for a detailed explanation: http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/57016-Stat-Point-Allocation-is-a-Bland-Experience?p=802718&viewfull=1#post802718 (I wanted to copy/paste ir here, but I couldn't attach the picture hehehehe, my appologies)

What do you think of this system? I believe this could give players a better grasp of what are they doing, plus avoiding that a melee class can only focus on STR just like BarteIX explained. Also, I believe there is less probability to ***** up the stats allocation because you focus on actions.
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#40 Jun 25 2013 at 11:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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PavetlXIV wrote:
In BETA forums there is an interesting idea from a member. Somehow I find this idea of Allocating points more interesting than allocating points to attributes. He basically explains a merit system in which you can increase the potency of certain actions somehow similar the way merits work in FFXI. I believe this is better for players to chose who they want to play their classes and jobs. Thus, a WAR player that wants to be a tank could enhance his/hers actions that affects tanking abilities, whereas a DD WAR could enhance his/hers offensive actions.

Pleaes refer to the following link for a detailed explanation: http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/57016-Stat-Point-Allocation-is-a-Bland-Experience?p=802718&viewfull=1#post802718 (I wanted to copy/paste ir here, but I couldn't attach the picture hehehehe, my appologies)

What do you think of this system? I believe this could give players a better grasp of what are they doing, plus avoiding that a melee class can only focus on STR just like BarteIX explained. Also, I believe there is less probability to ***** up the stats allocation because you focus on actions.


That's a little better, and I love his mockup...

But when you get right down to it, it's the same problem in a different package, albeit a much more interesting package.

When you give people the ability to tweak their numbers, you aren't offering a playstyle choice, you're offering a math choice. And your choice will invariably boil down to:
1: Use the cookie-cutter build that's been mathed out to provide the best performance
2: Do it wrong

That doesn't seem like a real choice to me. And it's fake customization, since every person taking their performance seriously will have exactly the same build. Systems like this are the reason Blizzard completely redesigned their talent system in Mists of Pandaria. Because systems like this one don't work and only serve as a trap to entice people in to gimping themselves.

A real choice is one that alters gameplay in a way the player finds interesting, but without one choice being strictly better than the others. It's SUPER tricky to pull this off, and it's significantly easier to just cobble together a system like the one you linked or the one we currently have. But ultimately, providing real choices for a player to customize how they play is the superior option.
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#41 Jun 25 2013 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
PavetlXIV wrote:
In BETA forums there is an interesting idea from a member. Somehow I find this idea of Allocating points more interesting than allocating points to attributes. He basically explains a merit system in which you can increase the potency of certain actions somehow similar the way merits work in FFXI. I believe this is better for players to chose who they want to play their classes and jobs. Thus, a WAR player that wants to be a tank could enhance his/hers actions that affects tanking abilities, whereas a DD WAR could enhance his/hers offensive actions.

Pleaes refer to the following link for a detailed explanation: http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/57016-Stat-Point-Allocation-is-a-Bland-Experience?p=802718&viewfull=1#post802718 (I wanted to copy/paste ir here, but I couldn't attach the picture hehehehe, my appologies)

What do you think of this system? I believe this could give players a better grasp of what are they doing, plus avoiding that a melee class can only focus on STR just like BarteIX explained. Also, I believe there is less probability to ***** up the stats allocation because you focus on actions.


That's a little better, and I love his mockup...

But when you get right down to it, it's the same problem in a different package, albeit a much more interesting package.

When you give people the ability to tweak their numbers, you aren't offering a playstyle choice, you're offering a math choice. And your choice will invariably boil down to:
1: Use the cookie-cutter build that's been mathed out to provide the best performance
2: Do it wrong

That doesn't seem like a real choice to me. And it's fake customization, since every person taking their performance seriously will have exactly the same build. Systems like this are the reason Blizzard completely redesigned their talent system in Mists of Pandaria. Because systems like this one don't work and only serve as a trap to entice people in to gimping themselves.

A real choice is one that alters gameplay in a way the player finds interesting, but without one choice being strictly better than the others. It's SUPER tricky to pull this off, and it's significantly easier to just cobble together a system like the one you linked or the one we currently have. But ultimately, providing real choices for a player to customize how they play is the superior option.


They are just something to provide the option to balance or focus. Our choice, not SEs. If we as a group decide to apply them to a specific stat, that is "our" decision, not SEs, thereby offering the only real form of customization that can be done. Having them "Cookie cutter" vs "Wrong" is merely the mind-set of the community, and it appears that for the most part the community has already decided, they want Cookie cutter.

Personally I commend SE for allowing us to at least have some say, though it is obvious that the decision is still min/max.

As for the bland idea. Dressing it up doesn't change anything. SE is not trying to fool us with this, and has been pretty straight forward in saying that this is just something for us to use to balance or not as we see fit. Again, it's not something to break the balance of the game.

We have the option to make our characters different, though it's obvious by the number of points, and the limited influence, they know what we are going to do with them, but they are at least making it something "We" as a community decide, not them.
#42 Jun 25 2013 at 12:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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rfolkker wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
PavetlXIV wrote:
In BETA forums there is an interesting idea from a member. Somehow I find this idea of Allocating points more interesting than allocating points to attributes. He basically explains a merit system in which you can increase the potency of certain actions somehow similar the way merits work in FFXI. I believe this is better for players to chose who they want to play their classes and jobs. Thus, a WAR player that wants to be a tank could enhance his/hers actions that affects tanking abilities, whereas a DD WAR could enhance his/hers offensive actions.

Pleaes refer to the following link for a detailed explanation: http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/57016-Stat-Point-Allocation-is-a-Bland-Experience?p=802718&viewfull=1#post802718 (I wanted to copy/paste ir here, but I couldn't attach the picture hehehehe, my appologies)

What do you think of this system? I believe this could give players a better grasp of what are they doing, plus avoiding that a melee class can only focus on STR just like BarteIX explained. Also, I believe there is less probability to ***** up the stats allocation because you focus on actions.


That's a little better, and I love his mockup...

But when you get right down to it, it's the same problem in a different package, albeit a much more interesting package.

When you give people the ability to tweak their numbers, you aren't offering a playstyle choice, you're offering a math choice. And your choice will invariably boil down to:
1: Use the cookie-cutter build that's been mathed out to provide the best performance
2: Do it wrong

That doesn't seem like a real choice to me. And it's fake customization, since every person taking their performance seriously will have exactly the same build. Systems like this are the reason Blizzard completely redesigned their talent system in Mists of Pandaria. Because systems like this one don't work and only serve as a trap to entice people in to gimping themselves.

A real choice is one that alters gameplay in a way the player finds interesting, but without one choice being strictly better than the others. It's SUPER tricky to pull this off, and it's significantly easier to just cobble together a system like the one you linked or the one we currently have. But ultimately, providing real choices for a player to customize how they play is the superior option.


They are just something to provide the option to balance or focus. Our choice, not SEs. If we as a group decide to apply them to a specific stat, that is "our" decision, not SEs, thereby offering the only real form of customization that can be done. Having them "Cookie cutter" vs "Wrong" is merely the mind-set of the community, and it appears that for the most part the community has already decided, they want Cookie cutter.

Personally I commend SE for allowing us to at least have some say, though it is obvious that the decision is still min/max.

As for the bland idea. Dressing it up doesn't change anything. SE is not trying to fool us with this, and has been pretty straight forward in saying that this is just something for us to use to balance or not as we see fit. Again, it's not something to break the balance of the game.

We have the option to make our characters different, though it's obvious by the number of points, and the limited influence, they know what we are going to do with them, but they are at least making it something "We" as a community decide, not them.


Except when you realize that SE has to balance around someone doing this correctly. If, for instance, I evenly distribute my 30 points across all 6 stats (+5 each), I will perform strictly worse than someone who didn't do that. Because of that, SE has to account for the idea that I will distribute my stats correctly and balance their encounters accordingly. If they don't do that, then the group that has their min/max hats on will absolutely steamroll the content and then (correctly) complain that it isn't challenging.

There's really no interpretation here, you aren't dealing with abstract ideas, you're dealing with math.
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#43 Jun 25 2013 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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PavetlXIV wrote:
In BETA forums there is an interesting idea from a member. Somehow I find this idea of Allocating points more interesting than allocating points to attributes. He basically explains a merit system in which you can increase the potency of certain actions somehow similar the way merits work in FFXI. I believe this is better for players to chose who they want to play their classes and jobs. Thus, a WAR player that wants to be a tank could enhance his/hers actions that affects tanking abilities, whereas a DD WAR could enhance his/hers offensive actions.


That's an awesome mock up he did. Solid idea except for one thing - A WAR is a tank. I don't think it's feasible for its general role in a party to change based on allocating points. It's not how the game is designed (ex: LBs are assigned by party role). This idea is similar to mine except for that I don't want to try and change a person's role. Just change how they perform it.

A WHM is a healer - they'll never be DD. But they should be able to, as perhaps a way to reduce the enmity they generate during battle, decide, "I want my protect to be X% better and my regen to be Y% more potent and last Z% longer." And that should be as viable as another WHM wanting the same thing deciding, "I want my Stoneskin to last X% longer protect for Y% of the targets maximum HP and have my Shroud of Saints reduce my enmity by Z% more while boosting the potency of my Cure III by 50 (random number)." Both should be viable and acceptable in a balanced system.

Players shouldn't be given so many points that they can just change their whole mode of operation. They should be allowed to, with planning and a little trial and error (respecs need to be allowed), prioritize certain traits/abilities and make it so that they have a way to really play their chosen role how they want.
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#44 Jun 25 2013 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Honestly on my CNJ I've just been dumping into MND and PIE, the extra MP has been nice.
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#45 Jun 25 2013 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Except when you realize that SE has to balance around someone doing this correctly. If, for instance, I evenly distribute my 30 points across all 6 stats (+5 each), I will perform strictly worse than someone who didn't do that. Because of that, SE has to account for the idea that I will distribute my stats correctly and balance their encounters accordingly. If they don't do that, then the group that has their min/max hats on will absolutely steamroll the content and then (correctly) complain that it isn't challenging.

There's really no interpretation here, you aren't dealing with abstract ideas, you're dealing with math.


So? The exact same thing happens with gear choices. Players find what is absolutely the most ideal on a slot by slot basis, and form cookie cutter builds based on it. The same thing happens with abilities and rotations as well. Once the best is figured out, everyone flocks to it. At least if you give players more choices, they can base their decisions on how they want to play the game, or at least try out different options for different situations (if point resets are allowed). Some players are always going to min/max everything, it's just the nature of mmo's (and any game that relies on stats).
#46 Jun 25 2013 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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rfolkker wrote:
The stat point bonuses help compensate for the racial modifiers. .



So each race gets different stats at level 1? Not sure why, but I thought they were equal. Please verify, thanks cause
I want to be a mage, so I may have to change to Lala, instead of Hume.

Cheers!
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#47 Jun 25 2013 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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I think we're talking about the quest for the holy grail of MMOs here. Perfect balance between a multitude of
sufficiently unique options, with choices that truly matter but do not lock out anyone permanently due to the
choices he made. Good luck with that one.
#48 Jun 25 2013 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So each race gets different stats at level 1? Not sure why, but I thought they were equal. Please verify, thanks cause
I want to be a mage, so I may have to change to Lala, instead of Hume.

Cheers!

Confirmed, see post #34 on this page.
#49 Jun 25 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
So each race gets different stats at level 1? Not sure why, but I thought they were equal. Please verify, thanks cause
I want to be a mage, so I may have to change to Lala, instead of Hume.

Cheers!

Confirmed, see post #34 on this page.


Thank you for the reply. I guess I'll go Lala then. Only because the difference could get larger with expansions of levels etc.
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#50 Jun 25 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
Rinsui wrote:
I think we're talking about the quest for the holy grail of MMOs here. Perfect balance between a multitude of
sufficiently unique options, with choices that truly matter but do not lock out anyone permanently due to the
choices he made. Good luck with that one.

What, you mean that's not easy?

Smiley: sly

I think people were just trying to understand if it really was a useful system or just fluff. I honestly didn't even use my points for the longest time, and when I did... I honestly can't say as I saw really much difference. I think because it is so small (a point a level), you wouldn't really even notice it much anyway until you've invested enough of your points in.

They do need a respec option, if one does not already exist. Honestly, every MMO that allows for adjustments like this should have one simply because if they change how stats work, you may want/need to readjust accordingly. Aside from that...

I'm a solid meh.

It feels like something they felt needed to be added for... reasons... it just didn't wow me or otherwise impact me by level 21. Maybe by level 50 I'll have a better opinion of it.

Edited, Jun 25th 2013 2:59pm by Pawkeshup
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#51 Jun 25 2013 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
So? The exact same thing happens with gear choices. Players find what is absolutely the most ideal on a slot by slot basis, and form cookie cutter builds based on it. The same thing happens with abilities and rotations as well. Once the best is figured out, everyone flocks to it. At least if you give players more choices, they can base their decisions on how they want to play the game, or at least try out different options for different situations (if point resets are allowed). Some players are always going to min/max everything, it's just the nature of mmo's (and any game that relies on stats).


That's true, but I think we can agree that best-in-slot gear existing is not the same thing as this.

Rinsui wrote:
I think we're talking about the quest for the holy grail of MMOs here. Perfect balance between a multitude of
sufficiently unique options, with choices that truly matter but do not lock out anyone permanently due to the
choices he made. Good luck with that one.


You're not wrong. Asking for that is completely pie-in-the-sky, although I'd love to see it.

My point here is that what we're getting isn't even an attempt at it. Even if the merit point suggestion above isn't a solution either, it's at least interesting enough that people would have to think about it for more than 10 seconds to figure out what it means for them.

Grandmomma wrote:
So each race gets different stats at level 1? Not sure why, but I thought they were equal. Please verify, thanks cause
I want to be a mage, so I may have to change to Lala, instead of Hume.


They sure do, and I'm not a fan of that either. Though I'm happy to concede that the racial differences don't really make a difference worth caring about. +2 MND at level 50 isn't going to make or break anything.
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