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#27 Jul 10 2013 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
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210 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
schneiderw wrote:
DEX is also fairly important for botanists because some nodes offer an additional gathering attempt upon a successful dexterity check. The extra gathering attempt is a big deal when coupled with certain botanist abilities. For example, that one extra strike can yield an additional 5 crystals when coupled with a ward ability. Given the frequency with which those checks proc, a gatherer could reasonably walk away with an additional 100 crystals in a given gathering session.


That's actually the first I've heard of primary stats affecting gathering classes. It makes sense that they would, but there seems to be very little information out there about it.


I've only seen it on btn so far, but I can confirm that the dex check randomly occurs when harvesting trees, but an int check randomly occurs when harvesting from lush vegetation (secondary tool). I'm interested in trying out miner soon so I can get some info on that class as well.
#28 Jul 10 2013 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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Basically, once you get the Tree Whisperer (or other equivalent) at 11 in your DoL class, you can see some of the harvesting nodes with criteria for unlocking a bonus effect. Some are based on STR/DEX/MND/etc, others are based on Gathering or Perception. Bonuses include +X gathering rate, +Y gathering rate for high level items, +Z HQ rate, +A attempts, and +B yield. You can only get some of the bonuses at 11, and unlocking further tiers of the Tree Whisperer (or your DoL equivalent) will unlock the other options.
#29 Jul 10 2013 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
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210 posts
Ravashack wrote:
Basically, once you get the Tree Whisperer (or other equivalent) at 11 in your DoL class, you can see some of the harvesting nodes with criteria for unlocking a bonus effect. Some are based on STR/DEX/MND/etc, others are based on Gathering or Perception. Bonuses include +X gathering rate, +Y gathering rate for high level items, +Z HQ rate, +A attempts, and +B yield. You can only get some of the bonuses at 11, and unlocking further tiers of the Tree Whisperer (or your DoL equivalent) will unlock the other options.


Yes, these random events are unlocked via the Tree Whisperer traits, but the only 2 core stats that apply to TW are dex and int. The other 2 are obviously gathering and perception, but they aren't relevant to the point allocation system.
#30 Jul 10 2013 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
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It may be that the other stats pop up for the other gathering classes, because I know I have seen MND and STR as requirements before.
#31 Jul 11 2013 at 7:51 AM Rating: Good
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Ravashack wrote:
It may be that the other stats pop up for the other gathering classes, because I know I have seen MND and STR as requirements before.

Yeah, my friend mentioned STR affecting Mining in this same manner.

Since the thread is about allocating bonus points, this is probably all academic. For example, you don't have to worry about whether you should distribute bonus points as THM to INT for magic damage or DEX for botany since those bonus points only affect you when you're THM.
#32 Jul 11 2013 at 8:46 AM Rating: Good
Rinsui wrote:


3 HP @ LV 1-10
8 HP @ LV 11-40
13 HP @ LV 41-50

regardless of class, race, or tail color.


Thanks!

Now I'm curious of all that stat allocations are scaled like this. And maybe the level ranges are identical for the scaling of other stats. I'm sure it won't be long before someone does in-depth testing.
#33 Jul 11 2013 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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210 posts
svlyons wrote:
Ravashack wrote:
It may be that the other stats pop up for the other gathering classes, because I know I have seen MND and STR as requirements before.

Yeah, my friend mentioned STR affecting Mining in this same manner.

Since the thread is about allocating bonus points, this is probably all academic. For example, you don't have to worry about whether you should distribute bonus points as THM to INT for magic damage or DEX for botany since those bonus points only affect you when you're THM.


I did a bit of mining last night, but not enough to unlock the traits that are the miner equivalent of Tree Whisperer (I forgot the name). I was assuming that the traits would be str and mind, so I'm glad that this has been confirmed. Now I am especially curious about how fishing will work. It would be weird if they used vit and pie, but who knows if fishing will even be remotely similar to mining and botany.
#34 Jul 11 2013 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
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6,899 posts
svlyons wrote:
Ravashack wrote:
It may be that the other stats pop up for the other gathering classes, because I know I have seen MND and STR as requirements before.

Yeah, my friend mentioned STR affecting Mining in this same manner.

Since the thread is about allocating bonus points, this is probably all academic. For example, you don't have to worry about whether you should distribute bonus points as THM to INT for magic damage or DEX for botany since those bonus points only affect you when you're THM.


Yes, I hit lev. 20 miner today and I've had several nodes that had a MND requirement, where I got an extra attempt if I met the threshold. So it must be STR/MND for miner, and DEX/INT for botanist.
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#35 Jul 11 2013 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I haven't paid attention when switching classes, but when playing cnj I've put all my points into mnd. Do those points carry over to other classes that I switch to, or are those points only added to when I'm on my cnj?
#36 Jul 11 2013 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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210 posts
Hatamaz wrote:
I haven't paid attention when switching classes, but when playing cnj I've put all my points into mnd. Do those points carry over to other classes that I switch to, or are those points only added to when I'm on my cnj?


It's different for each class.
#37 Jul 11 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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262 posts
schneiderw wrote:
Hatamaz wrote:
I haven't paid attention when switching classes, but when playing cnj I've put all my points into mnd. Do those points carry over to other classes that I switch to, or are those points only added to when I'm on my cnj?


It's different for each class.


Unless I'm missing something, that's kind of disappointing. What's the point of bonus points if they don't stick with you for each class? As a cnj, I don't feel like there is much choice with my bonus points. It's either mnd or pie, and I chose mnd. I just think it would be cool if it carried over when I decided to go with another healing class and have a little boost because I'm already an experienced healer.
#38 Jul 11 2013 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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210 posts
Hatamaz wrote:
schneiderw wrote:
Hatamaz wrote:
I haven't paid attention when switching classes, but when playing cnj I've put all my points into mnd. Do those points carry over to other classes that I switch to, or are those points only added to when I'm on my cnj?


It's different for each class.


Unless I'm missing something, that's kind of disappointing. What's the point of bonus points if they don't stick with you for each class? As a cnj, I don't feel like there is much choice with my bonus points. It's either mnd or pie, and I chose mnd. I just think it would be cool if it carried over when I decided to go with another healing class and have a little boost because I'm already an experienced healer.


What I meant is that when you switch classes, you get to choose how to allocate points for each class. That way, when you switch from cnj to mrd, you won't have a mrd with all his points in mnd.
#39 Jul 11 2013 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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262 posts
But do my points carry over from cnj to mrd, along with the points I'll get while lvl'ing mrd?
#40 Jul 11 2013 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
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3,737 posts
Hatamaz wrote:
schneiderw wrote:
Hatamaz wrote:
I haven't paid attention when switching classes, but when playing cnj I've put all my points into mnd. Do those points carry over to other classes that I switch to, or are those points only added to when I'm on my cnj?


It's different for each class.


Unless I'm missing something, that's kind of disappointing. What's the point of bonus points if they don't stick with you for each class? As a cnj, I don't feel like there is much choice with my bonus points. It's either mnd or pie, and I chose mnd. I just think it would be cool if it carried over when I decided to go with another healing class and have a little boost because I'm already an experienced healer.


So you enjoy CNJ (WHM)... what happens when one day, three years later, you feel like playing LNC (DRG)? How much good would all that extra MND do you then?

Having the classes grow separately was one thing they did right with that system.

Quote:
But do my points carry over from cnj to mrd, along with the points I'll get while lvl'ing mrd?


No.

Edited, Jul 11th 2013 2:57pm by Callinon
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#41 Jul 11 2013 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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262 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Hatamaz wrote:
schneiderw wrote:
Hatamaz wrote:
I haven't paid attention when switching classes, but when playing cnj I've put all my points into mnd. Do those points carry over to other classes that I switch to, or are those points only added to when I'm on my cnj?


It's different for each class.


Unless I'm missing something, that's kind of disappointing. What's the point of bonus points if they don't stick with you for each class? As a cnj, I don't feel like there is much choice with my bonus points. It's either mnd or pie, and I chose mnd. I just think it would be cool if it carried over when I decided to go with another healing class and have a little boost because I'm already an experienced healer.


So you enjoy CNJ (WHM)... what happens when one day, three years later, you feel like playing LNC (DRG)? How much good would all that extra MND do you then?

Having the classes grow separately was one thing they did right with that system.

Quote:
But do my points carry over from cnj to mrd, along with the points I'll get while lvl'ing mrd?


No.

Edited, Jul 11th 2013 2:57pm by Callinon


Then I guess that's kind of my point. Why have bonus points if it only makes sense to really put them into one, maybe two stats that don't carry over to any other class when you switch?

And no, the mnd might not be that great when I switch to lnc to lvl it. But it sure would be great when I switch to another healing class.

I feel like, along with the racial choice, the bonus points don't really mean much as far as giving you something to think about when choosing or allocating. It would have been nice, but I'll get over it. I'll just throw those points into mnd for cnj/whm, and let the only real difference from other people be gear.
#42 Jul 11 2013 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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3,737 posts
Quote:
Then I guess that's kind of my point. Why have bonus points if it only makes sense to really put them into one, maybe two stats that don't carry over to any other class when you switch?


Couldn't agree more.

Quote:
And no, the mnd might not be that great when I switch to lnc to lvl it. But it sure would be great when I switch to another healing class.


So you're ok with being gimped in every class except WHM and (maybe) SCH?

Quote:
I feel like, along with the racial choice, the bonus points don't really mean much as far as giving you something to think about when choosing or allocating. It would have been nice, but I'll get over it. I'll just throw those points into mnd for cnj/whm, and let the only real difference from other people be gear.


Well you're right that the system is silly. With the stats being as simple as they are, there's basically zero thought that has to go into assigning these bonus points. They may as well be assigned automatically and not bother you.

If SE wants to add individual customization to character classes, I am all for that. But find a way to do it that's meaningful and feels like a real choice. AND give people the ability to fix it if they don't like what they got, or if the game changes at some point in the future (which is kind of a thing in MMOs). This system only presents a false choice, and it's barely noticeable at that.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#43 Jul 11 2013 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
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232 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Then I guess that's kind of my point. Why have bonus points if it only makes sense to really put them into one, maybe two stats that don't carry over to any other class when you switch?


Couldn't agree more.

Quote:
And no, the mnd might not be that great when I switch to lnc to lvl it. But it sure would be great when I switch to another healing class.


So you're ok with being gimped in every class except WHM and (maybe) SCH?

Quote:
I feel like, along with the racial choice, the bonus points don't really mean much as far as giving you something to think about when choosing or allocating. It would have been nice, but I'll get over it. I'll just throw those points into mnd for cnj/whm, and let the only real difference from other people be gear.


Well you're right that the system is silly. With the stats being as simple as they are, there's basically zero thought that has to go into assigning these bonus points. They may as well be assigned automatically and not bother you.

If SE wants to add individual customization to character classes, I am all for that. But find a way to do it that's meaningful and feels like a real choice. AND give people the ability to fix it if they don't like what they got, or if the game changes at some point in the future (which is kind of a thing in MMOs). This system only presents a false choice, and it's barely noticeable at that.


The zero thought thing may be true for some of the classes but not all of them. Take ARC for instance. Would it be better to raise DEX and increase your damage early on, or would it be better to increase PIE for longer lasting songs as BRD? Similarly, tanks can decide whether they want more HP or higher damage. I think you'll start seeing more options as more jobs get released.
#44 Jul 11 2013 at 9:13 PM Rating: Good
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6,899 posts
FrozenSherbet wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Then I guess that's kind of my point. Why have bonus points if it only makes sense to really put them into one, maybe two stats that don't carry over to any other class when you switch?


Couldn't agree more.

Quote:
And no, the mnd might not be that great when I switch to lnc to lvl it. But it sure would be great when I switch to another healing class.


So you're ok with being gimped in every class except WHM and (maybe) SCH?

Quote:
I feel like, along with the racial choice, the bonus points don't really mean much as far as giving you something to think about when choosing or allocating. It would have been nice, but I'll get over it. I'll just throw those points into mnd for cnj/whm, and let the only real difference from other people be gear.


Well you're right that the system is silly. With the stats being as simple as they are, there's basically zero thought that has to go into assigning these bonus points. They may as well be assigned automatically and not bother you.

If SE wants to add individual customization to character classes, I am all for that. But find a way to do it that's meaningful and feels like a real choice. AND give people the ability to fix it if they don't like what they got, or if the game changes at some point in the future (which is kind of a thing in MMOs). This system only presents a false choice, and it's barely noticeable at that.


The zero thought thing may be true for some of the classes but not all of them. Take ARC for instance. Would it be better to raise DEX and increase your damage early on, or would it be better to increase PIE for longer lasting songs as BRD? Similarly, tanks can decide whether they want more HP or higher damage. I think you'll start seeing more options as more jobs get released.


I'd still rather have the option to alter ALL the stats (stuff like crit, acc, determination, resistances, etc) as opposed to just the core stats, and also allow a reset that's free once a week/month and then costs increasing amounts of money. It would allow people to add a little variety to their class based on what they are doing... going to fight a super evasive mob? Throw on some extra acc points. Fighting a primal that does KILLER elemental damage that can 1-shot you? Throw on some resistance points. It would allow for much more customization and not leave most classes in this cookie cutter build position.
____________________________
Bartel Hayward--- Ultros Server
The Kraken Club <ZAM>
50 WAR • 50 MNK • 50 MIN • 50 GSM • 50 ARM • 50 LTW • 50 CUL • 50 WVR
thekrakenclub.shivtr.com
#45 Jul 11 2013 at 10:07 PM Rating: Decent
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232 posts
BartelX wrote:
FrozenSherbet wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Then I guess that's kind of my point. Why have bonus points if it only makes sense to really put them into one, maybe two stats that don't carry over to any other class when you switch?


Couldn't agree more.

Quote:
And no, the mnd might not be that great when I switch to lnc to lvl it. But it sure would be great when I switch to another healing class.


So you're ok with being gimped in every class except WHM and (maybe) SCH?

Quote:
I feel like, along with the racial choice, the bonus points don't really mean much as far as giving you something to think about when choosing or allocating. It would have been nice, but I'll get over it. I'll just throw those points into mnd for cnj/whm, and let the only real difference from other people be gear.


Well you're right that the system is silly. With the stats being as simple as they are, there's basically zero thought that has to go into assigning these bonus points. They may as well be assigned automatically and not bother you.

If SE wants to add individual customization to character classes, I am all for that. But find a way to do it that's meaningful and feels like a real choice. AND give people the ability to fix it if they don't like what they got, or if the game changes at some point in the future (which is kind of a thing in MMOs). This system only presents a false choice, and it's barely noticeable at that.


The zero thought thing may be true for some of the classes but not all of them. Take ARC for instance. Would it be better to raise DEX and increase your damage early on, or would it be better to increase PIE for longer lasting songs as BRD? Similarly, tanks can decide whether they want more HP or higher damage. I think you'll start seeing more options as more jobs get released.



I'd still rather have the option to alter ALL the stats (stuff like crit, acc, determination, resistances, etc) as opposed to just the core stats, and also allow a reset that's free once a week/month and then costs increasing amounts of money. It would allow people to add a little variety to their class based on what they are doing... going to fight a super evasive mob? Throw on some extra acc points. Fighting a primal that does KILLER elemental damage that can 1-shot you? Throw on some resistance points. It would allow for much more customization and not leave most classes in this cookie cutter build position.


Right now, only two classes are limited to one choice as far as party play goes–LNC and PGL. GLA and MRD can choose between STR, VIT, and to a lesser extent DEX. CNJ has MND and PIE, THM has INT and PIE, and ARC has DEX and PIE. With ACN, you'll likely have a choice between INT, MND, and PIE. For solo play, VIT is an option for every class. So while the game isn't as customizable as you might like, cookie cutter probably isn't the best way to describe it.

I do agree that it would be nice to have more options to play with, but I don't think that will make individual characters all that different. If SE decides they want more original builds, introducing more cross class abilities would be the way to go.
#46 Jul 12 2013 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
I was messing around with my 1.0 character stats last night to see what I could figure out about the potency of the 30 bonus points. First I logged onto a lvl 50 Conjurer that had not spent any bonus points - he had 30 bonus stat points in reserve ready to spend.

I tested the effect of Thunder II on about 20 or so level 5 Chigoes. I was, for whatever reason, hitting level 5 Chigoes for anywhere between 38 to 42 points of damage.

Then I dumped all 30 points into INT. This resulted in gaining exactly 30 points of Magic Attack Potency. Magic attack Potency went from 209 > 239.

The next 20 level 5 Chigoes I hit with Thunder II for anywhere between 44 to 48 points of damage.

While this is be no means a comprehensive test, the math I saw would seem to work like this:
At level 50, allocating 30 points to INT changed my average damage from 40 to 46. That is a 15% increase in damage.

Which seems reasonable because 209 > 239 is also roughly a 15% increase.

Granted, this is a larger % increase because INT is not the primary stat for Conjurer. I'm not sure what the lvl 50 Magic attack potency (before bonus stats) would be for a Thaumaturge. But it stand to reason that they would also be gaining a directly corresponding 30 MATK from allocating all 30 bonus points to INT.

In summary, I think that %15 certainly is a significant damage increase. Even if the percentage is 10% or even 5%, it's not meaningless by a long shot.
#47 Jul 12 2013 at 9:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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6,899 posts
FrozenSherbet wrote:
Right now, only two classes are limited to one choice as far as party play goes–LNC and PGL. GLA and MRD can choose between STR, VIT, and to a lesser extent DEX. CNJ has MND and PIE, THM has INT and PIE, and ARC has DEX and PIE. With ACN, you'll likely have a choice between INT, MND, and PIE. For solo play, VIT is an option for every class. So while the game isn't as customizable as you might like, cookie cutter probably isn't the best way to describe it.

I do agree that it would be nice to have more options to play with, but I don't think that will make individual characters all that different. If SE decides they want more original builds, introducing more cross class abilities would be the way to go.


I know what you mean, but even a choice of 2 options for most classes doesn't seem all that interesting. I'd just like an open-ended system where you have a lot of options instead of being forced into very few. As a DD, it's a completely pointless system to me, and since there are a fair amount of DD players out there, it is really limiting to a decent chunk of the playerbase. Heck, once jobs are active, most THM are going to stack INT for the damage bonus over PIE (since MP isn't a huge issue and ethers are easily crafted/consumable once per minute). Same for CON, most will probably just cap MND. Tanks are the only ones that really have a choice, and even that is quite limiting. I doubt many tanks will be putting a lot into DEX, since it only effects parry and block rate, whereas STR increases both damage and block mitigation amounts, and VIT increases max HP pretty substantially at higher levels.

Really I just want more options.
____________________________
Bartel Hayward--- Ultros Server
The Kraken Club <ZAM>
50 WAR • 50 MNK • 50 MIN • 50 GSM • 50 ARM • 50 LTW • 50 CUL • 50 WVR
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#48 Jul 12 2013 at 9:38 AM Rating: Decent
I don't think that Glass Cannon builds are not necessarily the best. I can't find the post, now but yesterday someone posted a great line about how Galka BLM in FFXI often outdamaged Tarus, just because they could absorb a big AoE boss attack.

Something about:
Quote:
The Galka BLM could just keep laying out the damage while standing knee deep in dead Tarus.


Like Xioe said above:
Xioe wrote:
As an armchair point allocator, you can't go wrong with VIT no matter what. You're no good to anyone dead, and more HP helps prevent that.


I'm just not sold that allocating all your points in one place is the way to go. Also, adding all 30 bonus point to a Stat that is not your primary stat will give you a higher % increase to that stat. For example, 300+30 is a 10% increase, while 200+30 is a 15% increase.

I think this thread shows that people are not necessarily all agreed on where to spend points, and that people are in-fact at this very moment giving this a good deal of thought, rather than mindless allocating all their points to their primary stat.
#49 Jul 12 2013 at 10:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gnu wrote:
I don't think that Glass Cannon builds are not necessarily the best. I can't find the post, now but yesterday someone posted a great line about how Galka BLM in FFXI often outdamaged Tarus, just because they could absorb a big AoE boss attack.

If BLMs were typically in danger of taking such AoE damage every fight, then a Galka BLM would have won out on average damage over the long run. However, not every fight included single target or AoE moves that did sufficiently high damage to one shot BLMs. And some fights would have TP moves that potent, but proper hate management and positioning would mitigate the risks of BLMs getting hit.

Manawall also had the potential to change things quite a bit. When Manawall was up, every 2 points of damage would deduct one point of MP first. That means that Manawall would make a Taru BLM more survivable than a Galka BLM, since a Taru's deeper MP pool would allow that player to absorb more damage than a Galka's deeper HP pool.

Gnu wrote:
Like Xioe said above:
Xioe wrote:
As an armchair point allocator, you can't go wrong with VIT no matter what. You're no good to anyone dead, and more HP helps prevent that.

I think a conclusion like that glosses over the impact of simply killing stuff faster. It's easy to eyeball cases where a player managed to survive with single digit HP. What's harder to gauge is the impact over time of being able to kill mobs faster. Killing mobs faster means you run less risk of your healers running out of MP, or for the fight to turn sour when the mob unexpectedly does multiple consecutive crits followed by a nasty TP move.

You also shouldn't discount the amount of time saved in the long term for even safe fights. Death is something you can recover from. It just costs you time. It's easy to tell when you've lost time due to deaths because a run failed. But it's difficult to gauge over the long term how much more time was spent with successful runs that took longer because the DDs invested in HP over stats that would help their damage.

In general, survivability stats are probably what players are going to go for if they plan to do most of their group play through duty finder or pick up groups, and they don't completely trust random strangers. If you plan to do most group content with a static or end game shell, and you trust the healers, tanks, and other members in general, then DD boosting stats probably make more sense.
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