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Duty Finder and Dungeons: Part 2Follow

#1 Jul 10 2013 at 7:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Part 2 of Ragar's impressions.

http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=32695
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#2 Jul 11 2013 at 4:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Huh! I actually agree with most of what he said..... Weird.
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#3 Jul 11 2013 at 6:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Probably because it wasn't me writing it Smiley: tongue
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#4 Jul 11 2013 at 7:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
Probably because it wasn't me writing it Smiley: tongue


He did mention the negatives....
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#5 Jul 11 2013 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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He also accepted them as primarily personal negatives. He acknowledged he was in a new-player area and that the higher level stuff caught his interest.

Personally, I like the scaling of the content. Yes, the beginning stuff seems a bit simple for me, but I feel the same way in acknowledging it's for beginners. Having the advantage of a level 50's perspective on it and being able to jump into different content right away to see the contrast.
#6 Jul 11 2013 at 9:02 AM Rating: Good
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He is a good writer. Usually someone else's MMO story gets boring fast, but the little details he shares are worth the read.

Specifically he make two great points about:
1.) Not being about to queue for multiple roles.
2.) Getting booted from the dungeon and party dissolves when you wipe.

Not game breaking, but worth discussing possible improvements.

#7 Jul 11 2013 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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Gnu wrote:
He is a good writer. Usually someone else's MMO story gets boring fast, but the little details he shares are worth the read.

Specifically he make two great points about:
1.) Not being about to queue for multiple roles.
2.) Getting booted from the dungeon and party dissolves when you wipe.

Not game breaking, but worth discussing possible improvements.



Exactly! He brought some good points, and some others that he says are personal for him, and that's Good!
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#8 Jul 11 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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I never realized how useless stoneskin was till I used it. :(
#9 Jul 11 2013 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
1.) Not being about to queue for multiple roles.


A bigger problem here is that even if you could queue up for multiple roles, you would be stuck only being able to "need" on the gear of the job you end up going as.

So, if I were trying to level lancer as my main job, I'd have no incentive to queue up as a conjurer as a backup option, because then I'd be stuck lotting on conjurer gear.

I actually brought this up in the official feedback forum a few days ago. Seemed like 50 percent of people who replied thought it was a good idea, 25 percent thought it was bad, and the other 25 percent just didn't understand.
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#10 Jul 11 2013 at 11:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Oh! That's a great point Thayos.

In that case, I think I prefer the current system. Since the finder is cross-server the wait times are quite low and reasonable. I'd think you can just change your queued role if you want.

I think Needing on only your own class's gear is essential.

Edited, Jul 11th 2013 1:13pm by Gnu
#11 Jul 11 2013 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
1.) Not being about to queue for multiple roles.


A bigger problem here is that even if you could queue up for multiple roles, you would be stuck only being able to "need" on the gear of the job you end up going as.

So, if I were trying to level lancer as my main job, I'd have no incentive to queue up as a conjurer as a backup option, because then I'd be stuck lotting on conjurer gear.

I actually brought this up in the official feedback forum a few days ago. Seemed like 50 percent of people who replied thought it was a good idea, 25 percent thought it was bad, and the other 25 percent just didn't understand.


I really really like your idea, but here is what i think the major problem is as far as the Duty Finder would be concerned, if you allow anybody to loot any gear for classes they have unlocked, you will run into problems, the Duty Finder is for casual players mostly, who are probably running their first character, the system already allows you to use "Greed" to obtain gear, for your off job etc Etc. Now if they allow anybody to use "Need" since technically each character can be any class, the system will be Abused! Since unlocking a class is as easy as visiting a city, talk to a NPC and that is It!

Now there are solutions to the problem, you can voice your concern to the party once you join the DF, or you can run a LS/FC group that will have no problem conceding the gear to you, since you are helping them clear content by being another class than the one you would be running.
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#12 Jul 11 2013 at 3:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gnu wrote:
Oh! That's a great point Thayos.

In that case, I think I prefer the current system. Since the finder is cross-server the wait times are quite low and reasonable. I'd think you can just change your queued role if you want.

I think Needing on only your own class's gear is essential.

Edited, Jul 11th 2013 1:13pm by Gnu


I can't emphasize the last point enough. It's bad enough that some MRDs and GLAs will Need on DoW gear rather than just heavy armor in Duty Finder. In regular parties, I would be fine with people using Need for other classes.
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#13 Jul 11 2013 at 7:03 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I think Needing on only your own class's gear is essential.


I think you should be able to designate which class you want to "need" for, and you'd be stuck "greeding" on anything else.

This would potentially create more competition for certain items, but at the same time, rounding up parties would be easier and faster for everyone. Also, nobody would have to feel penalized for switching to more necessary classes/jobs in order to get things rolling.

Just my two cents though. I'll manage with whatever we've got.

Quote:
Now there are solutions to the problem, you can voice your concern to the party once you join the DF, or you can run a LS/FC group that will have no problem conceding the gear to you, since you are helping them clear content by being another class than the one you would be running.


This is true! And if FFXIV's community is half as good as what FFXI's used to be, then reputation among players WILL matter.

Edited, Jul 11th 2013 6:04pm by Thayos
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#14 Jul 11 2013 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
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Hmm that's an interesting notion as well.

You are saying that you would just select a single class to Need on, regardless of what roles you queued as, or what class you were currently.

That would certainly allow you too queue for multiple roles while still limiting the Need rolls.
#15 Jul 11 2013 at 11:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wonder if anyone has suggested using a similar system for loot as how they handle items dug up for Gathering?

Maybe it's not quite as "immersive" as having to distribute what they found in the "treasure box" but it would lead to a lot less arguing over who gets what.

Rather than a static loot list of drops that you have to haggle over among everyone in the group, everyone gets their own little selection menu of everything they could get along with the percentage chance that they will actually get it. If there's a super-rare 1% drop, everyone selects that, and everyone rolls a 1 out of 100, they all get the super rare drop (hey, it's better odds than winning the lottery). Or they can choose a safer, less amazing, but more frequent regular drop so they don't walk away empty handed. The choice is up to each individual and not limited to what class they have leveled.

They can make an informed choice of what to "roll" for, and if they don't get it, they have no one but themselves (or SE) to blame. But at least there's no ugly drama wars among friends this way.
#16 Jul 12 2013 at 12:17 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
You are saying that you would just select a single class to Need on, regardless of what roles you queued as, or what class you were currently.


Exactly... but, the job that you'd "need" on would have to at least be a high enough level to enter the dungeon.

Quote:
Rather than a static loot list of drops that you have to haggle over among everyone in the group, everyone gets their own little selection menu of everything they could get along with the percentage chance that they will actually get it. If there's a super-rare 1% drop, everyone selects that, and everyone rolls a 1 out of 100, they all get the super rare drop (hey, it's better odds than winning the lottery). Or they can choose a safer, less amazing, but more frequent regular drop so they don't walk away empty handed. The choice is up to each individual and not limited to what class they have leveled.


This would be a great way to handle loot from bosses. Drop rates would have to be lower, though, because everyone would get chances at gear with every run.

Edited, Jul 11th 2013 11:18pm by Thayos
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#17 Jul 12 2013 at 12:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
1.) Not being about to queue for multiple roles.


A bigger problem here is that even if you could queue up for multiple roles, you would be stuck only being able to "need" on the gear of the job you end up going as.

So, if I were trying to level lancer as my main job, I'd have no incentive to queue up as a conjurer as a backup option, because then I'd be stuck lotting on conjurer gear.

I actually brought this up in the official feedback forum a few days ago. Seemed like 50 percent of people who replied thought it was a good idea, 25 percent thought it was bad, and the other 25 percent just didn't understand.


You should only be able to roll need for what you brought. Not everyone levels multiple jobs, and to lose out on something they need because the healer decided he might someday want to use it is **** plain and simple.
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#18 Jul 12 2013 at 12:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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You should only be able to roll need for what you brought. Not everyone levels multiple jobs, and to lose out on something they need because the healer decided he might someday want to use it is bullsh*t, plain and simple.


So if six DDs are all looking for a group, and no tanks or healers were available, you'd rather just have the DDs stand around and wait, rather than give them the ability to change to other jobs while still having the ability to get the relevant gear they need?

THAT is the big concern my idea would address. When you lock people into "only getting the gear for the job they come as," then -- especially at endgame -- you open the door to situations in which certain players are forced to come to events because they're the only ones with certain jobs leveled, and then they can never get the gear they want most for the jobs they like best.

Also, at lower levels, it's silly to have longer wait times (in my opinion) when you could give people the option of coming as a different job than the one they're seeking loot for.

I acknowledge this would create more competition for DD gear, but it would also help to remove time spent waiting for dungeon parties, and I'd always rather be working toward my goal than standing around (or doing something else).
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#19 Jul 12 2013 at 2:59 AM Rating: Good
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I believe I misunderstood you.

That is unfortunately the way it's set up to keep it fair. Apparently SE doesn't have the technology yet to have the game scan jobs/classes before loot drops, so they're forced to have it setup for whatever you queue up as. A MNK should NOT be able to roll need on a WHM staff, but a guy who queued up as MNK and switched to WHM to help the group after the healer dropped should.

(Am I in the 25% that doesn't understand still, or is this basically it?)

I just don't want healers rolling on dps and vice versa. It's not fair to queue as a healer for instant dungeons and then roll need on the dps gear. People do that in WoW to gear up their other specs and it's @#%^ed up.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 5:01am by Transmigration
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#20 Jul 12 2013 at 4:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Would say I prefer locking Need to the job you're on. A little communication or planning outside the DF can remedy the alt-job situation. Yes, you'll have people BS about having a job leveled or planning to, but greedy people will be greedy no matter what and sometimes you'll get those who Need simply to vendor **** Basically ran into this on Rift where the classes/souls had various builds to let you tank, DPS, heal, or support. As a warrior, was mainly either tank or DPS. If I wound up in a group as a DPS, I usually deferred plate tank drops to the tank if it was a warrior. If they didn't need it, then I took it in case I wound up wanting to tank in the future. Occasionally you'd get PUGs where it's 3 warriors with the other heal/support slots, but I wouldn't worry about that too much for 4-man parties. Should there be some kind of token system in place, that can also handle alt-job needs by letting you use those to gear out the alts alongside unwanted drops while doing whatever with your main.
#21 Jul 12 2013 at 4:54 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah I think for casuals things like this might be a problem. But at endgame with a LS or Company, with multiple level 50s this stuff will be worked out accordingly among the groups.

Also this is probably trivial but even at my early level I've used drops in the dungeons I was running. It might be insignificant but every little bit helps.

In the end I don't mind the system as it is. SE has no real incentive to allow people more equal access to gear.

SE wants people to run though content over and over again.

Lastly to Thayos' point, you should be playing the job you want to play. And you should be in a LS that doesn't make you heal every time just because you have a high level CON. That seems more like peer pressure.

DDs do have an inherently harder time to get the good gear but that's always going to be the case.


But at early levels with the DF and the fact that you're only in a pt of 4 drops are actually pretty decent.

Sorry I'm all over the place but in the end I don't mind the system as it is, and really think it would be in SEs best interest to leave this same system for loot in place; because this is one of the time sinks for being a hardcore player.
#22 Jul 12 2013 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
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My take: if you use the Duty Finder to find a group, you need on the role you are playing. If you actually form your own party, you should be able to role on whatever you want, or introduce Thayos approach where you pick a class to role on (assuming of course you have it leveled high enough to enter dungeon). This way, if people want to use the DF for quick, hassle-free grouping, they can. However if they want to play a certain class but maybe already are geared out for it or just are looking to improve their other class before attempting the same dungeons, they have that option by forming their own groups. It would encourage more self-made groups also, which is good for the same server community.
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#23 Jul 12 2013 at 9:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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A MNK should NOT be able to roll need on a WHM staff, but a guy who queued up as MNK and switched to WHM to help the group after the healer dropped should.


This is the concept I'm after. I just wish it could be expanded for people who would rather queue up as healers so that forming parties wouldn't take so long. I believe it was Wint's writeup that said he stood around for nearly 20 minutes queue'd up as a DD, and didn't get an invite... but when he changed to a healing job, he got invited right away.

A way around this might be:

1) Queue up as the job you want to play as.
2) The player is then asked for any other job he could come as, to expedite the party process (the player does not have to select any other jobs he'd be willing to come as).
3) The DF considers all of the job alternatives, and attempts to place the player in a party according to his primary job choice... but alternative jobs are called for if needed.
4) The player can only "need" on the gear that corresponds with his selected primary job, which was the job he wanted to play most as in the dungeon.

That's almost like my original idea, but actually much better.... because it still emphasizes the "primary job" above all else, assuming there are players currently looking for parties as other roles.

And, goodbye 20-minute wait times!

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 8:42am by Thayos

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 8:43am by Thayos
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#24 Jul 12 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
1) Queue up as the job you want to play as.
2) The player is then asked for any other job he could come as, to expedite the party process.
3) The DF considers all of the job alternatives, and attempts to place the player in a party according to his primary job choice... but alternative jobs are called for if needed.


The only problem with this is that, unless there is a minimum time limit before your backup job is considered, anyone who roles DPS as primary and either tank or healer as secondary, will almost always end up as tank or healer, since those seem to get invites WAY more often than DPS. Maybe this would be slightly lessened if people could put alternate roles, as there would be bigger pools of everything, but I still think it might be an issue.


EDIT: OOPS, accidentally put an addition on your post instead of mine! This is Thayos!

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 9:16am by Thayos
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#25 Jul 12 2013 at 10:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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The only problem with this is that, unless there is a minimum time limit before your backup job is considered, anyone who roles DPS as primary and either tank or healer as secondary, will almost always end up as tank or healer, since those seem to get invites WAY more often than DPS. Maybe this would be slightly lessened if people could put alternate roles, as there would be bigger pools of everything, but I still think it might be an issue.


Well, people who really want to play as DPS wouldn't have to select any "backup jobs" they could come as.

So, really, there wouldn't be an issue. You could still play as a DPS, if you're willing to wait longer.

EDIT (on my post, this time): I made some edits to my post above while you were writing your reply.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 9:17am by Thayos
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#26 Jul 12 2013 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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I'm for the current system. I simply do not believe in essentially being a mercenary for gear on a role you are not contributing to.

Duty Finder essentially eliminates the required need to level for undesired classes or roles. If you play something flooded, you simply swallow the fact that you sit longer on the Duty Finder.

Ideal, an organized, friendly Free Company will rotate roles for their members to have access to the loot anyways, but if not. DF bypasses that issue.

The concept of being rewarded for the role you play just makes far more sense to me.
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