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#1 Jul 12 2013 at 8:53 PM Rating: Good
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Soooo. I just did Halatali for the first time. The makeup was 2 THM a MRD and me as CNJ. Guess who tanked the whole dungeon? That's right....one of the THMs. I'm not even kidding. Zero wipes. And I got a really neat staff off the last boss. The THM didn't even give the MRD a chance and the MRD never did anything but a few skills and auto attacks.

I really think they need to look at dungeon difficulty/challenge or whatever.
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#2 Jul 12 2013 at 8:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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LebargeX wrote:
Soooo. I just did Halatali for the first time. The makeup was 2 THM a MRD and me as CNJ. Guess who tanked the whole dungeon? That's right....one of the THMs. I'm not even kidding. Zero wipes. And I got a really neat staff off the last boss. The THM didn't even give the MRD a chance and the MRD never did anything but a few skills and auto attacks.

I really think they need to look at dungeon difficulty/challenge or whatever.


It doesn't surprise me, considering that I had to tank the electric Peiste twice on THM. THM could solo the dungeon if there wasn't a time limit, just spamming Blizzard II and Cure. It's probably one of the primary visible reasons why people whine that Umbral Ice is overpowered.
#3 Jul 12 2013 at 8:57 PM Rating: Good
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In one of his more recent interviews. Yoshi may have said that is working as intended. That's a level 15 raid right? At that level, there shouldn't be too much need for a GLA tank. Now, if you can complete it without a healer... then... lol...
#4 Jul 12 2013 at 8:59 PM Rating: Good
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Halatali is like the 4th or 5th dungeon... not the first.
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#5 Jul 12 2013 at 9:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah it's the 4th.

Level 20-23
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#6 Jul 12 2013 at 9:07 PM Rating: Good
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GDLYL wrote:
In one of his more recent interviews. Yoshi may have said that is working as intended. That's a level 15 raid right? At that level, there shouldn't be too much need for a GLA tank. Now, if you can complete it without a healer... then... lol...


While I love this game, and can't say enough about what they've done to listen to fans... the "the difficulty is working as intended" broken record is getting me a little nervous. The game is VERY easy... and the part which gives me even more pause is that the dungeons are currently set to be "a little bit harder than they will be on release day" according to Yoshi.

I think adding in a little extra challenge keeps you on your toes and makes you feel like what you are doing matters... If the difficulty stays at a low level throughout you never feel the reward of victory.

As per usual, I refrain from making any serious judgements considering it's still in beta... I do hope to see some tangible changes come release though.
#7 Jul 12 2013 at 9:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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While I love this game, and can't say enough about what they've done to listen to fans... the "the difficulty is working as intended" broken record is getting me a little nervous. The game is VERY easy... and the part which gives me even more pause is that the dungeons are currently set to be "a little bit harder than they will be on release day" according to Yoshi.


While I definitely think the leveling dungeons don't need to get any easier than they are now, I'd also point out that they ARE leveling dungeons. They aren't meant to be difficult.

The difficult stuff happens at endgame in raids.

Now, that being said, if the endgame raids are as easy as the leveling dungeon, complaint totally valid.
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#8 Jul 12 2013 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Oops, I forget which is which. Prior to Ifrit I just remember having to do 3 back to back ones. They were easy enough, that I'm not surprised you don't really "need" a tank. I'm not too certain you need one for Ifrit either lol...
#9 Jul 13 2013 at 3:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'll just put this here because I don't want to create a new thread:

I joined a Copperbell party as a lancer. It was me, an archer and a conjurer.

We had 20 mins left and needed to beat the slime and the last gigas.

We went for it. No tank, just us three.

Since I've ran Copperbell as a GLD I knew what to do. I told them and the archer kited the slimes, and I took care of the bomb and spriggans.

We passed that pretty easily.

We died on some trash mobs, but made it to the gigas.

I told them I'd tank the gigas and for the archer to take care of the adds. Everything was going great when I saw there were too many adds and they were going after the CON. The gigas was down to litterally a sliver of health, the archer was barely alive...

I died! Then saw the screen go black...to a cutscene of the boss dying!

It was pretty epic. More importantly it was fun.

----

I think the level of difficulty is fine up to 20. Considering you have to pass these to progress, they can't be overly difficult. The game is teaching you things in order to prepare for endgame; things like communication, hate management, etc. I'd think the endgame, which none of us have seen, will be the (not surprisingly) hardest content.

Should there be a heroic mode for some of these dungeons....yeah I think so. But really I think the early dungeons are fine.
#10 Jul 13 2013 at 5:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I just hope they have a lot prepared for endgame if that's set to be the main focus. I haven't experienced any of the dungeons so I can't really speak on their difficulty, but from all the feedback I have seen it looks as though people are going to eat through levels way too quickly. Unless there are some higher hurdles a little further down the track, I get the feeling that people will finish the race without breaking a sweat.

It's going to be interesting to see what Yoshi has planned for the later stages of the game. I wonder if it's going to be bigger blocks of content that come a few times a year, a big block that they plan to unlock over smaller increments of time or just smaller blocks every other month...

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#11 Jul 13 2013 at 5:09 AM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
While I definitely think the leveling dungeons don't need to get any easier than they are now, I'd also point out that they ARE leveling dungeons. They aren't meant to be difficult.


Who says MMORPG leveling needs to be easy (monotonous)?
#12 Jul 13 2013 at 7:02 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
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While I love this game, and can't say enough about what they've done to listen to fans... the "the difficulty is working as intended" broken record is getting me a little nervous. The game is VERY easy... and the part which gives me even more pause is that the dungeons are currently set to be "a little bit harder than they will be on release day" according to Yoshi.


While I definitely think the leveling dungeons don't need to get any easier than they are now, I'd also point out that they ARE leveling dungeons. They aren't meant to be difficult.

The difficult stuff happens at endgame in raids.

Now, that being said, if the endgame raids are as easy as the leveling dungeon, complaint totally valid.


I agree with this completely. The game is trying to accomodate both casuals and hardcores. If the leveling dungeons, which are part of the storyline to actually advance your character, are too difficult, it's going to sour the game on a lot of players. Personally I think the difficulty is fine as is. The very first time you run a dungeon, it still has a bit of challenge to it. Some of the bosses have unique mechanics that, if your group doesn't know them, will make the fights very tough. Once you learn the mechanics, it becomes very easy, as do most encounters in mmo's I've found. As Callinon said, as long as the endgame stuff holds a good challenge, I'm fine with the leveling parts being somewhat easier.
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#13 Jul 13 2013 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
While I love this game, and can't say enough about what they've done to listen to fans... the "the difficulty is working as intended" broken record is getting me a little nervous. The game is VERY easy... and the part which gives me even more pause is that the dungeons are currently set to be "a little bit harder than they will be on release day" according to Yoshi.


While I definitely think the leveling dungeons don't need to get any easier than they are now, I'd also point out that they ARE leveling dungeons. They aren't meant to be difficult.

The difficult stuff happens at endgame in raids.

Now, that being said, if the endgame raids are as easy as the leveling dungeon, complaint totally valid.


I agree with this completely. The game is trying to accomodate both casuals and hardcores. If the leveling dungeons, which are part of the storyline to actually advance your character, are too difficult, it's going to sour the game on a lot of players. Personally I think the difficulty is fine as is. The very first time you run a dungeon, it still has a bit of challenge to it. Some of the bosses have unique mechanics that, if your group doesn't know them, will make the fights very tough. Once you learn the mechanics, it becomes very easy, as do most encounters in mmo's I've found. As Callinon said, as long as the endgame stuff holds a good challenge, I'm fine with the leveling parts being somewhat easier.


Hey let's be reasonable here, no one from the "make-it-harder" camp is saying anything about making these dungeons so hard that it takes an above average player to beat them. What we are saying is that I wouldn't mind getting wiped against a boss every now and then because the fight required a little bit of planning and technique.
#14 Jul 13 2013 at 10:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to have to agree with you a bit...

Last night for fun, we did Ifrit like this:

Screenshot


Brd was a random from Duty Finder, but we did fail 2 times prior to the win.

Healer (me) and Tank died at the end and the Drg was able to strafe-kite Ifrit down while the Brd healed. I was also very bad at dodging eruptions (JP server lag) but still, that should be a flat-out wipe every time.

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 12:32pm by Louiscool
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#15 Jul 13 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
Honestly, these dungeons lock off content.

Like the Auction House.

And Mounts.

Why the hell should they not be easy for people who know how to play?

Edit:

Yes, the Auction House. You cannot sell anything on the Marketplace without a retainer, and the retainer is obtained via this string of missions. So explain to me why it would be smart to make it harder?

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 12:34pm by Pawkeshup
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#16 Jul 13 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hey let's be reasonable here, no one from the "make-it-harder" camp is saying anything about making these dungeons so hard that it takes an above average player to beat them

Smiley: dubious
You sure about that?

Quote:
What we are saying is that I wouldn't mind getting wiped against a boss every now and then because the fight required a little bit of planning and technique.


It's tricky, because we're talking about dungeons that people will run while still very new to the game. They're still learning how the game works, and possibly how MMOs work. They're learning how dungeons work and how bosses and parties work. At this stage of the game you MUST assume that the people running these dungeons are greener than Ireland. If they're hard to do, than you're frustrating brand new players. Keep in mind too that these took a couple of days tops to reach, not a couple of months. Frightening off new players before they've paid for a month of service isn't the best idea.

Content has to get harder on a curve. I would expect higher level dungeons to be more difficult than lower level ones. I expect endgame raids to be challenging (though still on a curve... don't brickwall people on the first boss, please).


Edited, Jul 13th 2013 11:34am by Callinon
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#17 Jul 13 2013 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
Honestly, these dungeons lock off content.

Like the Auction House.

And Mounts.

Why the hell should they not be easy for people who know how to play?

Edit:

Yes, the Auction House. You cannot sell anything on the Marketplace without a retainer, and the retainer is obtained via this string of missions. So explain to me why it would be smart to make it harder?

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 12:34pm by Pawkeshup


I agree with this too, though. It's REALLY hard to judge a game's difficulty by a level 25 instance. 1.0 was soloable all the way to Deus-Ex Machina, and then without warning you got your ass handed to you and realized you needed a party suddenly. I think they are tryign to avoid this sudden spike with a gradual one to ease you into it.

I would expect the difficulty to ramp up around 45-50, followed by much harder content that requires item levels beyond 50 to complete, followed by a level cap increase with even harder content.
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#18 Jul 13 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Default
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Doesn't level 50 hard hard mode dungeons? Yea so this thread is useless especially for a lvl 20 dungeon.
#19 Jul 13 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Hey let's be reasonable here, no one from the "make-it-harder" camp is saying anything about making these dungeons so hard that it takes an above average player to beat them

Smiley: dubious
You sure about that?

Quote:
What we are saying is that I wouldn't mind getting wiped against a boss every now and then because the fight required a little bit of planning and technique.


It's tricky, because we're talking about dungeons that people will run while still very new to the game. They're still learning how the game works, and possibly how MMOs work. They're learning how dungeons work and how bosses and parties work. At this stage of the game you MUST assume that the people running these dungeons are greener than Ireland. If they're hard to do, than you're frustrating brand new players. Keep in mind too that these took a couple of days tops to reach, not a couple of months. Frightening off new players before they've paid for a month of service isn't the best idea.

Content has to get harder on a curve. I would expect higher level dungeons to be more difficult than lower level ones. I expect endgame raids to be challenging (though still on a curve... don't brickwall people on the first boss, please).


Edited, Jul 13th 2013 11:34am by Callinon


Well anyone who is a reasonable person isn't saying anything about making the beginning dungeons epic... In fact, personally I'm not even talking about the first 3 dungeons. Realistically though, you should absolutely have some challenge associated with dungeons by time you're level 23. You've done 3 dungeons multiple times each at that point. If someone gets scared away because they get wiped once in a while in the 4th dungeon, then maybe they just aren't good at dealing with defeat??? Seems more like a personality issue than a game design flaw.

Again, let me be clear here... I'm not suggesting making the opening dungeons more difficult, but once you're in your 20s there should be at least SOME threat of dying once in a while. Instead we literally waltz through the dungeons with our HP never falling below 75%.

There has to be some happy medium.

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 5:03pm by ClydesShadow
#20 Jul 13 2013 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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The easiest way to make it a bit hard: stop giving Con unlimited MP. I mean, the only limiter in every dungeon is cure speed, as mp management in non-existent early on. Sure anyone can tank it, because anyone can get propped up by constant cures.
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#21 Jul 13 2013 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
The easiest way to make it a bit hard: stop giving Con unlimited MP. I mean, the only limiter in every dungeon is cure speed, as mp management in non-existent early on. Sure anyone can tank it, because anyone can get propped up by constant cures.


I agree with that for sure.
#22 Jul 13 2013 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
ClydesShadow wrote:
Well anyone who is a reasonable person isn't saying anything about making the beginning dungeons epic... In fact, personally I'm not even talking about the first 3 dungeons. Realistically though, you should absolutely have some challenge associated with dungeons by time you're level 23. You've done 3 dungeons multiple times each at that point. If someone gets scared away because they get wiped once in a while in the 4th dungeon, then maybe they just aren't good at dealing with defeat??? Seems more like a personality issue than a game design flaw.

Again, let me be clear here... I'm not suggesting making the opening dungeons more difficult, but once you're in your 20s there should be at least SOME threat of dying once in a while. Instead we literally waltz through the dungeons with our XP never falling below 75%.

There has to be some happy medium.

I ran each of the three starter dungeons once.

Once.

And I am level 21. So unless you are saying to get three levels I have to go back, with no other way (hint, there is another way) to make those two levels, then your point is invalid. People are choosing to grind the dungeons for loot and levels. These dungeons are intended as an extended play tutorial, and even Y-P has confirmed this, literally.

Again, these dungeons block basic content like the airship pass, grand company access, retainers... Things you sort of need/want in the game as basic functions. So I once again ask, how is smart to ramp up the difficulty to, effectively, roadblock content from new players just to appease people who already know how to play, especially when even the devs are saying that these dungeons are not intended to present that form of obstacle?

And again, even later dungeons, unless they are absolutely optional, will likely grant access to other features that are supposed to be a part of the assumed skillset of the player once they approach endgame.

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 1:30pm by Pawkeshup
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#23 Jul 13 2013 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Realistically though, you should absolutely have some challenge associated with dungeons by time you're level 23.


Just curious, can you name me another game that has challenging dungeons by level 23? I was trying to think of one, and the only thing that really came to mind was lotro with the Great Barrows instance. And even that isn't so much difficult as it is long. Most games don't have challenging content at low levels. Heck, WoW dungeons are all pretty easy until you hit 60ish, and even after that most of the ones in the dungeon finder are still incredibly straightforward. They have other content that is very challenging for sure, and I think ARR will too, such as hardmode and extreme primal fights, AF quests, relics, etc. I really don't think a dungeon at level 23 needs to be all that difficult. Make it fun, make the bosses have some cool mechanics, and make the dungeon itself interesting and unique, and that's good enough for me.
#24 Jul 13 2013 at 12:46 PM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
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Realistically though, you should absolutely have some challenge associated with dungeons by time you're level 23.


Just curious, can you name me another game that has challenging dungeons by level 23?


Depends what you mean by "challenging".

I can give you a huge list of games with harder instances than ARR by level 23 but I'm not sure if I'd consider them difficult necessarily. Just more difficult than ARR.

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 2:47pm by Killua125
#25 Jul 13 2013 at 12:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
The easiest way to make it a bit hard: stop giving Con unlimited MP. I mean, the only limiter in every dungeon is cure speed, as mp management in non-existent early on. Sure anyone can tank it, because anyone can get propped up by constant cures.


I definitely agree with that.. I was watching my CNJ's mp while I was punching things and it never really went anywhere; except for those times when the tank got distracted by a butterfly and I ended up tanking two mobs at once as a pugilist.. and even then, the guy kept me up.

Quote:
Again, let me be clear here... I'm not suggesting making the opening dungeons more difficult, but once you're in your 20s there should be at least SOME threat of dying once in a while. Instead we literally waltz through the dungeons with our XP never falling below 75%.


Going to assume you meant HP there.. and yeah, if you're an experienced MMO player (which is what I expect beta players to be, by and large) you're going to sleep through the dungeons because they're nothing special. But do believe me when I say that a neophyte player is going to have a learning curve when it comes to working in a party and dealing with mechanics. Now imagine a party of those. 4 guys who are playing their first MMO. They'll be challenged by this level of content, without it feeling like punishment.

Where the starter dungeons are right now is about right for a person at that level of skill and experience.

Unfortunately I haven't done any of the other dungeons, so I can't speak to their difficulty, but I expect them to be more difficult as they go up in level, growing appropriately with the player's own power.
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#26 Jul 13 2013 at 12:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wow you guys must be pro players or something.

Last three days: Me and a tank had to carry a fight with the healer and mage in Haitali, where they died to the lightning drake.

Our LS Went to help a player go do Ifirt, we wiped two times after killing the Fetters smoothly.

And I personally got my face melted having the Dragon boss from Longstop turning to Dragon Breath + Venom Breath singeing me out for attacks. Then, mid fight, got revived, the IMMEDIATELY Venom Spit again.

So the 'Too easy' complaint isn't resonating with me. IF you already know what you're doing with every fight, it can be very easy. If not, stuff can go very wrong very quickly.
#27 Jul 13 2013 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
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Realistically though, you should absolutely have some challenge associated with dungeons by time you're level 23.


Just curious, can you name me another game that has challenging dungeons by level 23?
GW2 dungeons could be pretty rough. I don't know how they're tuned now, but the first couple had some rough trash pulls, if I'm remembering right.
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#28 Jul 13 2013 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Early today, I was in TTD at the last boss as a CNJ, and the tank and one of the DPS both dc'd do it was just me and an archer left to kill squidy face by ourselves. I don't know how we pulled off the win, but it was pretty crazy.

Afterwords though, the thought that it may be too easy ran around in my brain for a bit. But whatever. I will say this though, and that is that the hardest thing about any of these dungeons so far is running it with some complete and utterly useless noobies. Some noobies are at least willing to listen up to learn a little, and figure out what they need to be doing, you know, contribute. As opposed to the pull whatever the hell they feel like and button mash until your whole team wipes crowd.

If a well knowledged party goes into to any of these dungeons, they may end up falling asleep and still passing it. But from a noobs perspective, this sh*t must be like the most complicated sh*t in the universe, or it seems that way with the ones I was catching today.



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#29 Jul 13 2013 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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And in mixed groups, doing the duty finder, it all comes down to making sure everyone knows what they are doing, and then executing it.

Just because we knew the kill the fetters didn't mean we got Ifrit tanked in the rim back in time, and then there was the lucky placement of eruptions that made evading them quite difficult.

There are other such catch points that are like "Aha! That's a weakness in your game you need to work on." And that I feel is the perfect reason why these fights are easy enough to pass by veterans, but still the right amount of difficulty - or rather we should say engagement, to keep it both entertaining and informative.

We'll still have to wait and see how it all culminates to endgame, of course, but so far I'd say the difficulty is where it needs to be for their respective levels.
#30 Jul 13 2013 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:
Well anyone who is a reasonable person isn't saying anything about making the beginning dungeons epic... In fact, personally I'm not even talking about the first 3 dungeons. Realistically though, you should absolutely have some challenge associated with dungeons by time you're level 23. You've done 3 dungeons multiple times each at that point. If someone gets scared away because they get wiped once in a while in the 4th dungeon, then maybe they just aren't good at dealing with defeat??? Seems more like a personality issue than a game design flaw.

Again, let me be clear here... I'm not suggesting making the opening dungeons more difficult, but once you're in your 20s there should be at least SOME threat of dying once in a while. Instead we literally waltz through the dungeons with our XP never falling below 75%.

There has to be some happy medium.

I ran each of the three starter dungeons once.

Once.

And I am level 21. So unless you are saying to get three levels I have to go back, with no other way (hint, there is another way) to make those two levels, then your point is invalid. People are choosing to grind the dungeons for loot and levels. These dungeons are intended as an extended play tutorial, and even Y-P has confirmed this, literally.

Again, these dungeons block basic content like the airship pass, grand company access, retainers... Things you sort of need/want in the game as basic functions. So I once again ask, how is smart to ramp up the difficulty to, effectively, roadblock content from new players just to appease people who already know how to play, especially when even the devs are saying that these dungeons are not intended to present that form of obstacle?

And again, even later dungeons, unless they are absolutely optional, will likely grant access to other features that are supposed to be a part of the assumed skillset of the player once they approach endgame.

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 1:30pm by Pawkeshup



Pawk? What are you talking about? First of all, you sound mad... calm down, I'm just making a suggestion.

You're talking like I'm saying we need to make these dungeons IMPOSSIBLE.

No. I'm saying every dungeon shouldn't be a 100% "beat the boss on the first try." Maybe it takes me 2 times to beat the boss because I didn't know the proper strategy in the beginning, etc. You're making it sound like I'm suggesting only the most elite gamers in all the land can beat the dungeon...

You keep making the tired argument that the dungeons are content tied. So what??? Does that mean we should just be handed all the content in the game, with the only cost being the amount of time we've spent playing the game? Personally, I think some small degree of challenge contributes to the overall enjoyment of the game.

Bartel wrote:
Just curious, can you name me another game that has challenging dungeons by level 23?


Sigh... I'm not playing another game. I'm playing XIV. I could give a sh*t what the neighbors down the street are doing.

Ahhh never mind, you guys apparently are happy with the difficulty as is, so I'll keep my argument to myself.

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 5:12pm by ClydesShadow
#31 Jul 13 2013 at 3:37 PM Rating: Default
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Sigh... I'm not playing another game. I'm playing XIV. I could give a sh*t what the neighbors down the street are doing.


Wow, you call pawk on getting angry and then end your post rather belligerently. But to your point, that's completely fair. I was merely trying to draw a comparison to judge from. I get that you want it more challenging, I just happen to disagree. I want leveling to be fun and engaging, and have the endgame be challenging. It's just personal preference, nothing to get so defensive about.
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#32 Jul 13 2013 at 4:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's not too easy unless you could solo all the dungeons on every job. I don't know if all of them are but I heard some are required to advance to level 50 and story. In Yoshi's view this beginning to ARR on your journey to 50 isn't supposed to take a really long time. He said the real game begins at level 50, that's when your training wheels are removed.

I'd like to use a metaphor here. If you are a beginning guitarist, you have to learn the basic notes, chords, scales, and some theory. You learn twinkle, twinkle little star or happy birthday, then you start learning more gradually difficult compositions before you start playing songs like "For the Love of God" by Steve Vai. Even if you become a virtuoso at one style on one instrument, you have to learn how to play with other musicians to actually make a song.

It's called motivation. You give users something to feel good about early with glimpses of future possibilities. It's one thing to be difficult out of the gate, you can grab and hold a select gifted few. But for the rest of them beginners who struggle, they just put the game down and move on. It's frustrating to lose when you solo because you know if the game isn't rigged, you are to blame. It's drive you up the @#%^ing wall when other players come into the mix. People usually tend to spread the blame around. I'm picturing a player playing Demon Souls for the first time if it was full blown multiplayer retaining the difficulty. Alot of controllers or disc being broken.

TLDR: If you can solo all the dungeons on every job or class or endgame at 50+ is still a cakewalk, then I'd worry. Not now.
#33 Jul 13 2013 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
ClydesShadow wrote:
Pawk? What are you talking about? First of all, you sound mad... calm down, I'm just making a suggestion.
I'm not angry, I'm just fed up of the constant droning on about how a portion of the game that has been literally stated to be a tutorial for the game is being said to be too easy. That is sort of the point to a tutorial.

And then keep in mind the source of the suggestion in this case. How long have you played MMOs or games in general? How many games have you beaten? How experienced at playing games are you?

ClydesShadow wrote:
You're talking like I'm saying we need to make these dungeons IMPOSSIBLE.
No, I am saying you're missing the bloody point. You are treating the current content differently because instead of viewing it as a lengthy tutorial section, you're seeing it as a standard single-player storylined RPG, as well as missing why the content is gated to begin with.

ClydesShadow wrote:
No. I'm saying every dungeon shouldn't be a 100% "beat the boss on the first try." Maybe it takes me 2 times to beat the boss because I didn't know the proper strategy in the beginning, etc. You're making it sound like I'm suggesting only the most elite gamers in all the land can beat the dungeon...
But then, who are complaining about the difficulty? The newbies? People who have never played an MMO or an FF game before? You have to understand that there is a reason and a purpose, and you know how you don't do that?

ClydesShadow wrote:
You keep making the tired argument that the dungeons are content tied. So what??? Does that mean we should just be handed all the content in the game, with the only cost being the amount of time we've spent playing the game? Personally, I think some small degree of challenge contributes to the overall enjoyment of the game.
By bullsh*t, weak-ass statements like this. You see, you are confusing a statement of fact with an argument. An argument supposes that we are on differing sides of an opinion-based subject, like whether or not bananas taste good. Taste is subjective. Right now, you're trying to make an argument over whether or not a banana exists when there's a bloody damn banana sitting directly in front of you.

It's not an argument. It's a statement of fact, unless you can tell me how to sell on the Marketplace as a level 1 starting character with no missions done on my account. Why would they do that, Clyde? Really consider that, why gate things like mounts and airship passes and the marketplace? Why funnel people through these dungeons? What purpose is it serving? See, that's what every single, solitary person who argues difficulty at this stage of the game fails to even consider, and cannot answer, so they devolve into:

ClydesShadow wrote:
Sigh... I'm not playing another game. I'm playing XIV. I could give a sh*t what the neighbors down the street are doing.

Ahhh never mind, you guys apparently are happy with the difficulty as is, so I'll keep my argument to myself.

You see, if you want to discuss difficulty, you have to use perspective on why the difficulty curve is so gentle. Why is that? Really think about it, then tell me, is it a smart idea to make it harder to access content, or is it smarter to encourage players to move along that curve, learn all you want them to learn, so that at endgame, when you lay out a breadcrumb trail of hints based on what you've taught them before, they see it, and as opposed to relying solely on wiki articles and YouTube for strategies, they can actually see what needs to happen, and make it happen.
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#34 Jul 13 2013 at 7:18 PM Rating: Default
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Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
You see, if you want to discuss difficulty, you have to use perspective on why the difficulty curve is so gentle. Why is that? Really think about it, then tell me, is it a smart idea to make it harder to access content, or is it smarter to encourage players to move along that curve, learn all you want them to learn, so that at endgame, when you lay out a breadcrumb trail of hints based on what you've taught them before, they see it, and as opposed to relying solely on wiki articles and YouTube for strategies, they can actually see what needs to happen, and make it happen.


I would think that if these dungeons are meant to be a tutorial (and not just fodder for people who already know what they're doing) that they would at least make them somewhat difficult. From most of what I have heard or read about, they require very little in the way of teamwork, cooperation and understanding of your class and abilities unless you're trying to low-man them.

I don't really care either way, but it's just something that seems a little off to me. The point of a tutorial isn't to be easy(though they generally are), but to actually expose people to something that they will need a better understanding of or prepare them for more difficult trials ahead. It doesn't seem to have the intended effect.
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#35 Jul 13 2013 at 7:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Just going on the record to say that Toto Rak was a bit tougher. I think what happened in my first run was that I had 2 THMs that were REALLY good. I went back a couple more times to Halatali and wound up wiping a bunch because of poor groups. No sleeping from THMs no flashing from tanks. The GLD had on level 32 gear synced down and played like he'd never done the dungeon before. I had to explain the mechanics.

I will amend my OP to say that the first few dungeons are easy when you have people who know what they're doing I will go as far as to say my initial Impression while not totally inaccurate is at least flawed.
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#36 Jul 13 2013 at 7:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Just play with bad players, it will get difficult quick then.
#37 Jul 13 2013 at 7:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mopdaddy wrote:
Just play with bad players, it will get difficult quick then.

Lol. Yep. Exactly!
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#38 Jul 13 2013 at 8:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Pawk wrote:
You see, if you want to discuss difficulty, you have to use perspective on why the difficulty curve is so gentle. Why is that? Really think about it, then tell me, is it a smart idea to make it harder to access content, or is it smarter to encourage players to move along that curve, learn all you want them to learn, so that at endgame, when you lay out a breadcrumb trail of hints based on what you've taught them before, they see it, and as opposed to relying solely on wiki articles and YouTube for strategies, they can actually see what needs to happen, and make it happen.


Again, I only said to make the battles have a little challenge to them... I never said anything about making the boss so hard you can't beat him on every single run. You're making an argument which I agree with, you're just not making an argument against what I'm saying.

Let me lay out what I'm saying... I agree the boss should be beatable, in fact every single instance you should eventually win. What I am saying is, losing a single fight (remember you teleport back down the hall then take the shortcut when you lose) should be something that's possible. The way it's currently constructed, never at any time are you even at risk of losing... as in not even close. Your HP never goes below 75% in a boss battle! That's crazy! I just think there is more excitement when the battle feels like you and your team beat the boss, rather than... you and your team put in the 30 minutes required to run the dungeon!

You keep bringing wiki articles, and hardcore strategy as though you're completely not reading what I've said about 5 times now... It should be a fun-filled challenge. No wiking, no internet searching, none of that. Just a good, fun, battle...

If you could show me, in appropriate context, where I've said anything to the contrary I would be willing to apologize... but I know I've said nothing but advocating for a slightly harder boss challenge.

Pawk wrote:
I'm not angry, I'm just fed up of the constant droning on about how a portion of the game that has been literally stated to be a tutorial for the game is being said to be too easy. That is sort of the point to a tutorial.


Tough... I'm sick of holier than thou types like you blasting the sh*t out of people like me who have suggestions for what we'd like to see. You're talking like I'm lambasting the game, which I'm not, I'm making suggestions. It is after all a BETA. You know, the part where you play so you can make suggestions for improvement?

People like you are all the same, it's "get in line or GTFO. "

Pawk wrote:
It's not an argument. It's a statement of fact, unless you can tell me how to sell on the Marketplace as a level 1 starting character with no missions done on my account. Why would they do that, Clyde? Really consider that, why gate things like mounts and airship passes and the marketplace? Why funnel people through these dungeons? What purpose is it serving? See, that's what every single, solitary person who argues difficulty at this stage of the game fails to even consider, and cannot answer, so they devolve into:


Ummm, I said "sigh you guys are happy so I'll keep my argument to myself." Meaning I'm apparently in the minority on this one, so I'll back off. I'm sorry that you were so highly offended by that...

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 11:06pm by ClydesShadow
#39 Jul 13 2013 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Pawkeshup wrote:

ClydesShadow wrote:
You keep making the tired argument that the dungeons are content tied. So what??? Does that mean we should just be handed all the content in the game, with the only cost being the amount of time we've spent playing the game? Personally, I think some small degree of challenge contributes to the overall enjoyment of the game.
By bullsh*t, weak-ass statements like this. You see, you are confusing a statement of fact with an argument. An argument supposes that we are on differing sides of an opinion-based subject, like whether or not bananas taste good. Taste is subjective. Right now, you're trying to make an argument over whether or not a banana exists when there's a bloody damn banana sitting directly in front of you.


Dude what does that even mean? Get over yourself... its a fricking critique of the game, its not like there was flaming going on...
#40 Jul 13 2013 at 9:19 PM Rating: Good
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Now I kinda want a banana...
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#41 Jul 13 2013 at 10:19 PM Rating: Default
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Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
I'm not angry, I'm just fed up of the constant droning on about how a portion of the game that has been literally stated to be a tutorial for the game is being said to be too easy. That is sort of the point to a tutorial.


The only point to a tutorial is to teach you something. The difficulty of the task has absolutely nothing to do with it. We're not to launch yet so I know that this can be adjusted, but people would probably rest a little easier if they at least got a crack at attempting more difficult dungeons. It's not the end of the world no, but I can see the reason why people might be concerned about it.
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cocodojo wrote:
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#42 Jul 13 2013 at 10:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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ClydesShadow wrote:

Let me lay out what I'm saying... I agree the boss should be beatable, in fact every single instance you should eventually win. What I am saying is, losing a single fight (remember you teleport back down the hall then take the shortcut when you lose) should be something that's possible. The way it's currently constructed, never at any time are you even at risk of losing... as in not even close. Your HP never goes below 75% in a boss battle! That's crazy! I just think there is more excitement when the battle feels like you and your team beat the boss, rather than... you and your team put in the 30 minutes required to run the dungeon!

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 11:06pm by ClydesShadow

That's not the case for all players though. Some groups don't breeze through every dungeon run on their 1st try.
#43 Jul 13 2013 at 10:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:

Let me lay out what I'm saying... I agree the boss should be beatable, in fact every single instance you should eventually win. What I am saying is, losing a single fight (remember you teleport back down the hall then take the shortcut when you lose) should be something that's possible. The way it's currently constructed, never at any time are you even at risk of losing... as in not even close. Your HP never goes below 75% in a boss battle! That's crazy! I just think there is more excitement when the battle feels like you and your team beat the boss, rather than... you and your team put in the 30 minutes required to run the dungeon!

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 11:06pm by ClydesShadow

That's not the case for all players though. Some groups don't breeze through every dungeon run on their 1st try.


Agreed. Out of the starter dungeons, I've seen the most deaths in groups in Copperbell, but have seen a couple in Tam-Tara (because the gargoyles can hit the tank really hard) and Sastasha (because the group didn't know about clicking the bubbles at the end).
#44 Jul 13 2013 at 10:55 PM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:

Let me lay out what I'm saying... I agree the boss should be beatable, in fact every single instance you should eventually win. What I am saying is, losing a single fight (remember you teleport back down the hall then take the shortcut when you lose) should be something that's possible. The way it's currently constructed, never at any time are you even at risk of losing... as in not even close. Your HP never goes below 75% in a boss battle! That's crazy! I just think there is more excitement when the battle feels like you and your team beat the boss, rather than... you and your team put in the 30 minutes required to run the dungeon!

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 11:06pm by ClydesShadow

That's not the case for all players though. Some groups don't breeze through every dungeon run on their 1st try.


Well like I said earlier, I'm apparently in the minority on this one so I'll back off... I only reiterated a second and third time because Pawk was arguing against something I wasn't even saying.
#45 Jul 13 2013 at 11:13 PM Rating: Good
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Mopdaddy wrote:
Just play with bad players, it will get difficult quick then.


I have to say, this is the reason why redoing dungeons is never boring to me. My party members are either so good that I'm impressed, or so bad that I'm laughing hilariously the whole way.
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#46 Jul 13 2013 at 11:40 PM Rating: Decent
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The first 3 dungeons are stupid easy, and you only have to do them once, there is no need to do them more than once, they do have a gimmick here and there, that are fun, but nothing new or shiny, there is no real need to grind them, but again they are level 15 dungeons, no problem with them being easy.... Now Hatali is again stupid easy, there is no reason to wipe on that dungeon, unless you are bad, you can kill the first boss w/o killing adds, the second boss you can pull to the ramp and evade his electricity gimmick, and the last one is a copy of the first one, with more HP.... But ok is the second dungeon out of the starting ones, so let's give it a pass... Now Toto Rak is also stupid easy, not only are 2 of the 3 bosses just some regular monster with higher HP, who have no gimmick, they are spank and tank, the third one is not even hard, even if you dont attack the tail when he is ready to use his special ability, the damage he does is sad.... Hakkar mannor is easy and boring, they really need to buff that dungeon up, and the last one, longsteep whatever the one with the dragon as the last boss, was not impressive either, the dragon is a regular Tank & Spank fight, i was actually excited when i saw a dragon, but the fight was so boring, i was really upset.... This is the dungeon they specially buffed up for us in Beta! You know to gives us a challenge... If this is their view of a challenge.... Well they better have 5-6 raids ready on release, because we are gonna eat this dungeons so quick, and reach 50 in 2-3 weeks, and then what are we gonna do ? Run some ifrits for 4-6 months again.....

The dungeons do not need to be extra difficult, but they should be hard enough to make you feel engaged, maybe some new fight gimmicks, or buff only the last encounter of the dungeon, there can be common ground, it does not need to be AV, but it does not need to be hogger either....

Also the first dungeon in GW2, wipes the floor with all the ones in XIV as off right now, i wiped in that istance on the first trash pull.... i have not wiped on this game as of yet, now can that be good party's ? Sure! But the defense for easy content should not be: "Well we had 3 afks, and the healer killed the boss....." That kinda makes our point
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#47 Jul 13 2013 at 11:59 PM Rating: Decent
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i think they know what there doing. This is just a beta remember, so there testing things out like difficulty to make sure people can learn the mechanics as well as make a proper progression curve.

After beating riven road hard (version 1.0 ultimate challenge, and possibly hardest fight in MMO history. AV doesn't count because that was un-winable) these dev's definatley know how to make things challenging. That battle pushed all 8 players to their limits and REQUIRED a good understanding of game mehanics and skill. You didn't have to be rocking relics to win either, but you did need at least above average gear.

Let's wait until we get to see the mid-end game content before passing judgement. I'm kind of hoping the later missions DO get more difficult. The harder the content gets, the more you practice and the better you become. Anyone remember CoP? that airship fight was like a right of passage and i can deffinatley say that fight made me a better player.
#48 Jul 14 2013 at 2:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Keysofgaruda wrote:
This is just a beta


5 words that have haunted these forums for 3 years now Smiley: lol

Keysofgaruda wrote:
Anyone remember CoP? that airship fight was like a right of passage and i can deffinatley say that fight made me a better player.


I didn't really have any issues until Tenzen other than the odd person showing up missing a leg of the quest who couldn't enter. If I had to pick a fight that would've made me a better player it'd probably have been the moblin BC. Almost everyone I know just fought airship away from the spawn area and went all out until they could die and RR.
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#49 Jul 14 2013 at 6:45 AM Rating: Good
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I'm perfectly fine with the difficulty. I feel they are on par with where they should be, given the small amount I was allowed to experience thus far. To be honest, I'm not looking forward to the part when the game closes off without having a horde of players dressed in top-tier gear. That's usually where it ends for me. Not because I don't want a challenge, but usually because it consists of grouping up with egotistical elitists, sadly.

Ostia wrote:
Now Hatali is again stupid easy, the second boss you can pull to the ramp and evade his electricity gimmick


Hmmm, must be nice to have a sightseer class in the group, because we wiped, due to not having one.

Quote:
Now Toto Rak is also stupid easy, the third one is not even hard, even if you dont attack the tail when he is ready to use his special ability, the damage he does is sad....


Again, wiped twice trying to figure out where the hell to go when he covers the area in poison. That sightseer class must be exclusive to elite players like yourself, cause I never seem to get grouped with one.
#50 Jul 14 2013 at 7:24 AM Rating: Default
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DragonBourne wrote:
I'm perfectly fine with the difficulty. I feel they are on par with where they should be, given the small amount I was allowed to experience thus far. To be honest, I'm not looking forward to the part when the game closes off without having a horde of players dressed in top-tier gear. That's usually where it ends for me. Not because I don't want a challenge, but usually because it consists of grouping up with egotistical elitists, sadly.

Ostia wrote:
Now Hatali is again stupid easy, the second boss you can pull to the ramp and evade his electricity gimmick


Hmmm, must be nice to have a sightseer class in the group, because we wiped, due to not having one.

Quote:
Now Toto Rak is also stupid easy, the third one is not even hard, even if you dont attack the tail when he is ready to use his special ability, the damage he does is sad....


Again, wiped twice trying to figure out where the hell to go when he covers the area in poison. That sightseer class must be exclusive to elite players like yourself, cause I never seem to get grouped with one.


Lmao! Why are you trying to make this an argument about Elites vs Casual ? There is no elite skill when it comes to common sense, if you are unable to figure out a mechanic as easy as "DO NOT STAND IN THE BIG PURPLE WATER THAT DOES 60+ DMG A SECOND"...... Well then my friend, you have not played any MMO in the past 10 years, or lack common sense, the area that turns purple is half the entire area you got to fight the boss, it turns purple and has electricity on it... if you go in, you instantly lose a pretty big chunk of health, the boss stops being tankable, and moves to the middle of the pond, which one of those 3 things tells you "Please go into the water and fight me ? The part where if you stay you die ? or the part where he summons adds to fight you, while he electrocutes the water ?

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#51 Jul 14 2013 at 7:28 AM Rating: Default
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Keysofgaruda wrote:
i think they know what there doing. This is just a beta remember, so there testing things out like difficulty to make sure people can learn the mechanics as well as make a proper progression curve.

After beating riven road hard (version 1.0 ultimate challenge, and possibly hardest fight in MMO history. AV doesn't count because that was un-winable) these dev's definatley know how to make things challenging. That battle pushed all 8 players to their limits and REQUIRED a good understanding of game mehanics and skill. You didn't have to be rocking relics to win either, but you did need at least above average gear.

Let's wait until we get to see the mid-end game content before passing judgement. I'm kind of hoping the later missions DO get more difficult. The harder the content gets, the more you practice and the better you become. Anyone remember CoP? that airship fight was like a right of passage and i can deffinatley say that fight made me a better player.


Riven Road was not even close to being a top 20 on the hardest MMO fights...... It was hard if you only played XI, and never touched another MMO.
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