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Scholar v. White MageFollow

#1 Jul 25 2013 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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I know nothing official about Scholar abilities has been mentioned, other than that it will specialize in HoT, but I am wondering how people think SCH will stack up as a healer against a WHM.

I like playing the healer class, and I loved playing SCH in FFXI, but WHM usually trumped SCH in the healing department.

Do you guys think SCH will have access to spells like Raise, and Cure II, III? I like HoT, but sometimes spike heals are necessary. Basically I'm wondering, in a high level raid, do you think it will be possible to survive with just SCH as healers, or will WHM be necessary?
#2 Jul 25 2013 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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I am fairly sure that it will be an effective healer on its own.

Worst case scenario, I think, high level dungeons will require both White Mage and Scholar.
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#3 Jul 25 2013 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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If they've done this correctly, the ideal situation will be one of each in higher level raids/dungeons.

That way neither one gets the shaft when it comes to getting to participate because of elitism.
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#4 Jul 25 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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boredenough wrote:
I know nothing official about Scholar abilities has been mentioned, other than that it will specialize in HoT, but I am wondering how people think SCH will stack up as a healer against a WHM.

I like playing the healer class, and I loved playing SCH in FFXI, but WHM usually trumped SCH in the healing department.

Do you guys think SCH will have access to spells like Raise, and Cure II, III? I like HoT, but sometimes spike heals are necessary. Basically I'm wondering, in a high level raid, do you think it will be possible to survive with just SCH as healers, or will WHM be necessary?


SCH should have Raise from cross-classing. I doubt Cure II or III will be available to them, but I'm sure they will have reasonable alternatives.

With regards to high level raids, I think it will end up depending on the party size. In the 8-man dungeons, you should probably be able to get away with having only one healer type. In the 24-man dungeons, I would expect to use a combination of the two. Everything should be able to be completed using just one type, but the most efficient setup should contain both.

Edited, Jul 25th 2013 3:23pm by FrozenSherbet
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#5 Jul 25 2013 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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You should expect to see some sort of balance. For the game to put you in a position where you'd rather have Healer A as opposed to Healer B, is bad game design. Undoubtedly, one class will be marginally better than the other, but I can't imagine it'll be game breaking. Even if it was, expect nefts.
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#6 Jul 25 2013 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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For me it really dont matter which is better because I will have both thats the joy of the class/job system. Lvl cnj and arcanist to 50 and you will always have the healer people need.

Like other MMO's its best to have a pure healer and a hot healer in the group for high end events. One for burst dmg control and one to keep people alive in the middle of dmg . I hope they implement this correct :)
#7 Jul 25 2013 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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I have a feeling that Scholar will be sort of like Resto Druid in WoW. Pretty much every heal they had was a HoT (Heal over Time) effect. Some abilities allowed them to burst heal people with certain HoT effects. They ended up being really good at Raid Healing (Healing non tank party members) and giving the tank a constant flow of HP. This apposed to say Holy Paladin, whose skillset makes them excellent tank healers because of their quick and large burst heals. Not to say that I didn't out raid heal everyone I played with while healing the tanks on my Holy Paladin :D.

I'm assuming that Scholar and White Mage will behave similarly together in a party setting to Resto Druid and Holy Paladin. SCH will provide small HoT healing to the general party as they constantly take weak raid-wide damage while WHM will most likely plug themselves into the tanks to keep them alive. These roles synergize quite well with one another. Having constant HoTs on the tank allow for much needed breathing room when they take spike damage and WHM can always pop a Cure II/III/Medica on the party when they are hurting. Single target Raid healing can be quite difficult, especially without some tool such as Beacon of Light, (Holy paladin ability that you could put on someone, mainly a tank, and they would be healed for the same amount when you healed someone else) so WHM will probably have some troubles with it alone. Sure you could spam Medica/Cure III, but Medica costs roughly 10% of your MP. Without major amounts of Piety/MP refresh It doesn't seem very viable. SCH will hopefully provide better party healing while sacrificing larger tank heals.
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#8 Jul 25 2013 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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I like the idea of SCH helping out with HoT for the general party while WHMs focus on the tank. I found that on CNJ in beta, I only let the party HP fall behind when I suddenly had to devote energy away from the tank. This wasn't such a big deal in XI since WHM had access to HoT with Regen. I tried to avoid Medica on CNJ after serious drilling to not use Curaga I/II/etc in XI to avoid pulling hate. I found that after I stopped being afraid to use it, and Stoneskin came into play to keep on the DDs, curing became much more manageable.
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#9 Jul 25 2013 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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I think WHM gets Regen around 40, although I think that is kind of late in my opinion. I like the idea of just putting stoneskin mostly on the DDs since it isn't really efficient to continuously cast on a tank during fights. It might be ok to cast it in between fights, but I'm looking forward to Regen much more.

I hope that they do make SCH more of a Raid healer, that way the two roles can feel different and won't have to be balanced in the same way.

Edited, Jul 25th 2013 7:25pm by DamienSScott
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#10 Jul 25 2013 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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That's like comparing a WoW holy priest with a resto druid. The answer is "they perform acceptably against each other while having their own flavor and mechanics to differentiate gameplay".
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#11 Jul 25 2013 at 6:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ruisu wrote:
That's like comparing a WoW holy priest with a resto druid. The answer is "they perform acceptably against each other while having their own flavor and mechanics to differentiate gameplay".


This is pretty much what I was going to say. People who only played FFXI don't really understand how modern MMOs work. I don't mean that in a bad way, FFXI just had a unique way of benching certain classes/jobs.
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#12 Jul 26 2013 at 7:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
Ruisu wrote:
That's like comparing a WoW holy priest with a resto druid. The answer is "they perform acceptably against each other while having their own flavor and mechanics to differentiate gameplay".


This is pretty much what I was going to say. People who only played FFXI don't really understand how modern MMOs work. I don't mean that in a bad way, FFXI just had a unique way of benching certain classes/jobs.

That's the one thing I'm really glad Yoshi gets about modern day mmos. If you're favorite class is SCH, you should be able to play SCH and do your job effectively. I have faith that the class will have a spell list that is adequate while being different enough from WHM to be noticeable.

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#13 Aug 02 2013 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Given the new data, I am still having trouble deciding if I want to roll a SCH or WHM!

The SCH cure has a nice barrier effect, and the fairy gets its own 300 potency cure, but WHM still seems like the true healer class with its much higher potency cures.
#14 Aug 02 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Scholar Pet Abilities

Fairy (2 forms, support and healer)
-Whispering Dawn: AoE regen around pet. Potency 100 for 21s. 30s recast.
-Embrace (both forms): 300 potency cure.
-Silent Dawn: Silences for 1s. 40s recast.
-Fey Glow: Increases Spell speed around pet by 30% for 30s. 60s Recast. Cant use at same time as Fey Light.
-Fey Covenant: Increases Magic Defense around fairy by 20% for 20s. Recast 2m
-Fey Light: Increases skill speed around pet by 30% for 30s. 60s Recast. Cant use at same time as Fey Glow.
-Fey Illumination: Increases Cure magic potency around pet by 20% for 20s. Recast 2m.

This was from an earlier post today. Thought it might help.
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#15 Aug 02 2013 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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Seems like the scholar is going to play a lil like the BRD from FFXI... running back and forth between dps and mages... could be wrong but that was first to pop to my head...

Looking forward to playing this class ;)

Edited, Aug 2nd 2013 3:41pm by Mmoderator
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#16 Aug 02 2013 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes, the abilities look great, I'm just worried if WHM will always be preferred as a Healer if one slot is only available.
#17 Aug 02 2013 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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boredenough wrote:
Yes, the abilities look great, I'm just worried if WHM will always be preferred as a Healer if one slot is only available.


Three things to consider.

One, Healer is going to be a desperate desire for anything the Duty Finder controls, and you do not control who in your duty Finder goes into - therefore you will get your equal share of Pug Parties.

Second - most 8 man runs will likely feature two healers as opposed to one. Therefore in higher levels you'll get two chances and that second chance will be greater as the system tries to diversify repeated roles.

Third - Arcanist has an alternative use in Summoner - meaning you have access to two roles if your LS already fills the one healer slot, which is very unlikely as throughout 1.xx there was typically the desire for two healers if possible, and Bard now falls into a DD Slot, not a healer slot.
#18 Aug 02 2013 at 3:13 PM Rating: Default
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WHM honestly should be always preferred (there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.) SCH is more of a support than a main healer, basically, for the real sh*t, you'll want both in your group, if you only plan to do the 4 man throwaway dungeons, then well, yeah you can use either/or but given how Arcanist and Scholar is setup, you'll want SCH support for the WHM.
#19 Aug 02 2013 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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Weird. Looking at the abilities we've seen so far, I'd have thought the worry would be that WHM will be obsolete rather than the other way around. Scholar has higher throughput, more mana tools, a wide array of buffs, and a damage absorbing shield built directly into its "main" heal, plus really useful utility in the form of virus and bio. The only downside I see is the possible vulnerability of pets vs being completely self contained.
#20 Aug 02 2013 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
WHM honestly should be always preferred (there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.) SCH is more of a support than a main healer, basically, for the real sh*t, you'll want both in your group, if you only plan to do the 4 man throwaway dungeons, then well, yeah you can use either/or but given how Arcanist and Scholar is setup, you'll want SCH support for the WHM.


In FFXI that makes sense because white mages have nothing to fall back on besides healing while scholars are multi talented.

But FFXIV is a different animal. Every class and job should fit in one of three roles: healer, damage, and tank. While there can be variations (e. g. Gladiators are great at tanking a single mega-boss while Warriors specialize in tanking multiple opponents) they should be adequate to perform their assigned function in their own way. There's no room for lol jobs in this game.

In other words, if white mages are always preferred for every healing situation, then there's something wrong with scholars.
#21 Aug 02 2013 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm actually worried about WHM's ability to restore MP. THM/BLM has MP restorative skills. ACN/SCH/SMN also have skills to replenish MP. As far as I can see all those skills can't be used by CON/WHM and they have none of their own.

Out of all the DoM, WHM seems like the one most likely to struggle with MP even with the chance to cast instant, no MP Cures.
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#22 Aug 02 2013 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Considering end-game involves two tanks and two healers in a Full party of 8, there is no point in making these debates on which job is better.
#23 Aug 02 2013 at 6:38 PM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
WHM honestly should be always preferred (there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.) SCH is more of a support than a main healer, basically, for the real sh*t, you'll want both in your group, if you only plan to do the 4 man throwaway dungeons, then well, yeah you can use either/or but given how Arcanist and Scholar is setup, you'll want SCH support for the WHM.


In FFXI that makes sense because white mages have nothing to fall back on besides healing while scholars are multi talented.

But FFXIV is a different animal. Every class and job should fit in one of three roles: healer, damage, and tank. While there can be variations (e. g. Gladiators are great at tanking a single mega-boss while Warriors specialize in tanking multiple opponents) they should be adequate to perform their assigned function in their own way. There's no room for lol jobs in this game.

In other words, if white mages are always preferred for every healing situation, then there's something wrong with scholars.


Every one of Arcanist (Scholar base abilities) and Scholars/Fey's abilities points toward Support rather than flatout healer. This is why I say you'd realistically want both, there would be nothing wrong with Scholar if people choose WHM mostly because WHM is through and through designed to be a healer, Scholar is not, just take a lot at the abilities and compare Conjurer versus Arcanist as that's their base classes.

#24 Aug 02 2013 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
Every one of Arcanist (Scholar base abilities) and Scholars/Fey's abilities points toward Support rather than flatout healer. This is why I say you'd realistically want both, there would be nothing wrong with Scholar if people choose WHM mostly because WHM is through and through designed to be a healer, Scholar is not, just take a lot at the abilities and compare Conjurer versus Arcanist as that's their base classes.


I want to say you're trolling, but considering your posts the past few months it's about par for the course so I'll just assume you're blind and can't read and compare.

They get:

  • Resurrection at level 22, which is 10 levels higher than WHM but also doesn't have the built-in "doesn't work in combat" restriction (WHM's comes off at level 28).
  • A 300 potency cure which is granted 100 potency less than a WHM's but it also has a built-in cureskin (Afflatus Solace/what the damn thing is from other MMOs/etc.) that is for the full amount of the heal and if the heal crits it's *twice* the amount of the heal. All in all this makes the actual cures a 600 potency that splits into re-active and pro-active healing (and that's the absolute *best* kind as a healer) -- and this is BEFORE it crits. Superior, by far.
  • A 150 potency AoE cure that's only 50 less than Medica II and it also gives off a shield on the target equal to the amount cured. Again, you're looking at really a 300 potency AoE heal (stronger than a WHM's already) that, once again, is BEFORE it crits. WHM's Medica II tacks on a 100 potency Regen that may be decent but will ultimately end up being a wash between the shield and the regen. Equal here.
  • A copy of Esuna, except that Scholar's can't proc the next one to be free (big deal...). WHM wins only due to the proc chance to make it free.
  • Has the ability to put up a ground targetted ability that reduces the damage taken by anyone who enters by 10% for 15 seconds (30 second cooldown), which also has a chance to make the AoE heal free to cast. WHM has *NOTHING* like this, SCH win.
  • An instant heal for 20% of a target's health during Aetherflow (and considering everything seems to be built up on that I'd expect a high uptime on it). The best WHM has is Stoneskin which is only really nice for the pull. I imagine cost will be prohibitive (like stoneskin is) to prevent spamming of this. Equal.


So, a single target heal, an AoE heal, a raise, a status removal ability, and the ability to reduce damage on potentially the entire group if need be on a short cooldown, and finally an instant heal that's % based if needed for emergencies. This isn't taking into considering their fairy companion either as that could also help alleviate healing woes (I honestly sincerely doubt this but we will see).

.....

So....what is it exactly that WHM has that SCH doesn't?

Regen? Regen heals for absolute sh*t amounts because they're afraid to buff it back to 1.0 amounts where it healed more than you could cure in a period of time. Regen was recently buffed to 150 potency (I guess in an attempt to make it somewhat useful), but that's still more of a single target thing.

Benediction? Sure, nice in an "OH SH--" moment but if it comes down to that you've potentially lost the fight anyway (whereas the shields from Scholar could have prevent someone dipping that low to begin with).

No, what I see is basically the difference between a TBC/WotLK Holy Priest (White Mage) and a Disc Priest (Scholar). One is aimed at reacting to damage and the other is aimed at being proactive with shields. Both are literally equal when it comes down to total damage taken and healed, and that's honestly how it should be.

Scholar is *HARDLY* "a support" role. That list of abilities shows it's built to heal and do it damned well.

No, if anything, looking at the toolkits and how they heal I laugh because White Mage now heals like SCH did (has the highest Regen spell, chance to proc free spells = stratagem charges) and Scholar as the WHM (S H I E L D S). Remember that once Afflatus Solace came into play WHM blew everyone else away

Edited, Aug 2nd 2013 9:14pm by Viertel
#25 Aug 02 2013 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Considering I know very little about the mage classes so far; I'm glad to see a thread on the subject. I was curious about something though. It seemed to me that AoE's and losing hate to DD's wasn't a constant concern for our healers in my parties during phase 3. That the priority was the tank and any DD who wanted to off-tank usually was doing a disservice to the group. My experience is limited to beta so I can't say for sure, but I thought you guys would be able to comment. Personally, I'm liking what I see so far from all the new mage classes. I hope all classes can coexist without min/maxers claiming one is better than the other.
#26 Aug 02 2013 at 9:14 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Considering I know very little about the mage classes so far; I'm glad to see a thread on the subject. I was curious about something though. It seemed to me that AoE's and losing hate to DD's wasn't a constant concern for our healers in my parties during phase 3. That the priority was the tank and any DD who wanted to off-tank usually was doing a disservice to the group. My experience is limited to beta so I can't say for sure, but I thought you guys would be able to comment. Personally, I'm liking what I see so far from all the new mage classes. I hope all classes can coexist without min/maxers claiming one is better than the other.


Healing threat will only be an issue at the start of a pull. 1 point healed is 0.5 points of threat, and in a group X threat generated by a heal is split amongst Y targets. As long as you get one or two Flashes/Overpowers it's virtually impossible for the healers to pull off of you (unless they're nuking as Stone had some WEIRD threat going on in P3).

Plus, from what they've managed to figure out Flash's threat is based off of the weapon damage, STR, and Determination of the tank so it'll scale with level to keep up the pace with bigger heals. Once you double that with the threat stance at level 40 (which is a 2x multiplier) it makes healing threat even more a non-issue in a fight. In the event there's a throat stab/threat wiping move there's always Provoke (unlike FFXI's this one sets up to highest enmity +1) so it's fairly easy to keep it off of the healers.

This is all with a Gladiator tank, obviously. A Marauder can cross Flash if they want and virtually ensure threat's his, and slot Provoke as well for threat wiping moves to get back up quickly. Healer threat looks to be a non-issue to anyone that reads their tooltips.


Edited, Aug 2nd 2013 11:18pm by Viertel
#27 Aug 03 2013 at 12:59 AM Rating: Good
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Just wanted to see I appreciate the discussion. FFXI was the only MMO I played, so the idea of any other healer being comparable to a WHM was foreign to me. I'm glad to see that SCH will be. One thing I didn't think about was, wouldn't you be able to basically toss out the SCH cure and the fairy cure at the same time? In effect, you'd have two 300 potency cures and a barrier.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2013 3:00am by boredenough
#28 Aug 03 2013 at 9:16 AM Rating: Default
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boredenough wrote:
Just wanted to see I appreciate the discussion. FFXI was the only MMO I played, so the idea of any other healer being comparable to a WHM was foreign to me. I'm glad to see that SCH will be. One thing I didn't think about was, wouldn't you be able to basically toss out the SCH cure and the fairy cure at the same time? In effect, you'd have two 300 potency cures and a barrier.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2013 3:00am by boredenough


Don't know as we haven't gotten a hands on test yet. For all we know the fairy could be limited to "master" healer only. That would limit its ability to contribute to the group, yet it could also free up the Scholar to focusing on the group and barely having to think about his/her own health.

(SE requested xivb.com to take down post P3 datamined abilities/etc. so we can't obviously check it at this time anyway.)
#29 Aug 03 2013 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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Check Reddit. Their info is still up and updated. You can compare their changes to the Beta Phase 3 list that is the current system.

Anyways, I like the fact that this is a debate. This means that the healers are in a good place when it comes to viability - if it's a point of argument, then it's working well.

I'm really, really liking the way Arcanist works if this info is more or less accurate. Very methodical and tactical no matter what job you go for. And I looove the idea of incremental protections and damages. This is the kind of Mage Class in a Final Fantasy I've been waiting for.
#30 Aug 03 2013 at 10:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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I like how Arcanist/Scholar has the damage mitigation bonus on the side. It reminds me a bit of the cure-skin in FFXI. Only this time, instead of WHM getting all of the healing tools, WHM gets the big cure spells while a different healer class gets the smaller cure spells with the damage mitigation.
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#31 Aug 03 2013 at 12:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is from Reddit:

Scholar Pet Abilities

Healer Fairy

-(Lv1)Whispering Dawn: AoE regen around pet. Potency 100 for 21s. 30s recast.

-(Lv1)Embrace (both forms): 300 potency cure.

-(Lv20)Fey Covenant: Increases Magic Defense around fairy by 20% for 20s. Recast 2m

-(Lv40)Fey Illumination: Increases Cure magic potency around pet by 20% for 20s. Recast 2m.

Support Fairy

-(Lv1)Silent Dawn: Silences for 1s. 40s recast.

-(Lv1)Embrace (both forms): 300 potency cure.

-(Lv20)Fey Glow: Increases Spell speed around pet by 30% for 30s. 60s Recast. Cant use at same time as Fey Light.

-(Lv40)Fey Light: Increases skill speed around pet by 30% for 30s. 60s Recast. Cant use at same time as Fey Glow.
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#32 Aug 03 2013 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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@Hyrist and Grandmomma

Yeah I just went to look when you suggested it. I didn't get a chance to tinker with a Chocobo companion in P3 so not sure if you can direct the pet where to go. However, if you can command the pet and choose it's Embrace target that even further solidifies an already incredibly solid healer class into one that's even better. And AoE Regen's going to be incredible for splash damage style mechanics.
#33 Aug 03 2013 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Viertel wrote:
@Hyrist and Grandmomma

Yeah I just went to look when you suggested it. I didn't get a chance to tinker with a Chocobo companion in P3 so not sure if you can direct the pet where to go. However, if you can command the pet and choose it's Embrace target that even further solidifies an already incredibly solid healer class into one that's even better. And AoE Regen's going to be incredible for splash damage style mechanics.


Yup, level 1 aoe regen itself is awesome. I look forward to partying with new classes.
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#34 Aug 03 2013 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
Every one of Arcanist (Scholar base abilities) and Scholars/Fey's abilities points toward Support rather than flatout healer. This is why I say you'd realistically want both, there would be nothing wrong with Scholar if people choose WHM mostly because WHM is through and through designed to be a healer, Scholar is not, just take a lot at the abilities and compare Conjurer versus Arcanist as that's their base classes.


I want to say you're trolling, but considering your posts the past few months it's about par for the course so I'll just assume you're blind and can't read and compare.

They get:

  • Resurrection at level 22, which is 10 levels higher than WHM but also doesn't have the built-in "doesn't work in combat" restriction (WHM's comes off at level 28).
  • A 300 potency cure which is granted 100 potency less than a WHM's but it also has a built-in cureskin (Afflatus Solace/what the damn thing is from other MMOs/etc.) that is for the full amount of the heal and if the heal crits it's *twice* the amount of the heal. All in all this makes the actual cures a 600 potency that splits into re-active and pro-active healing (and that's the absolute *best* kind as a healer) -- and this is BEFORE it crits. Superior, by far.
  • A 150 potency AoE cure that's only 50 less than Medica II and it also gives off a shield on the target equal to the amount cured. Again, you're looking at really a 300 potency AoE heal (stronger than a WHM's already) that, once again, is BEFORE it crits. WHM's Medica II tacks on a 100 potency Regen that may be decent but will ultimately end up being a wash between the shield and the regen. Equal here.
  • A copy of Esuna, except that Scholar's can't proc the next one to be free (big deal...). WHM wins only due to the proc chance to make it free.
  • Has the ability to put up a ground targetted ability that reduces the damage taken by anyone who enters by 10% for 15 seconds (30 second cooldown), which also has a chance to make the AoE heal free to cast. WHM has *NOTHING* like this, SCH win.
  • An instant heal for 20% of a target's health during Aetherflow (and considering everything seems to be built up on that I'd expect a high uptime on it). The best WHM has is Stoneskin which is only really nice for the pull. I imagine cost will be prohibitive (like stoneskin is) to prevent spamming of this. Equal.


So, a single target heal, an AoE heal, a raise, a status removal ability, and the ability to reduce damage on potentially the entire group if need be on a short cooldown, and finally an instant heal that's % based if needed for emergencies. This isn't taking into considering their fairy companion either as that could also help alleviate healing woes (I honestly sincerely doubt this but we will see).

.....

So....what is it exactly that WHM has that SCH doesn't?

Regen? Regen heals for absolute sh*t amounts because they're afraid to buff it back to 1.0 amounts where it healed more than you could cure in a period of time. Regen was recently buffed to 150 potency (I guess in an attempt to make it somewhat useful), but that's still more of a single target thing.

Benediction? Sure, nice in an "OH SH--" moment but if it comes down to that you've potentially lost the fight anyway (whereas the shields from Scholar could have prevent someone dipping that low to begin with).

No, what I see is basically the difference between a TBC/WotLK Holy Priest (White Mage) and a Disc Priest (Scholar). One is aimed at reacting to damage and the other is aimed at being proactive with shields. Both are literally equal when it comes down to total damage taken and healed, and that's honestly how it should be.

Scholar is *HARDLY* "a support" role. That list of abilities shows it's built to heal and do it damned well.

No, if anything, looking at the toolkits and how they heal I laugh because White Mage now heals like SCH did (has the highest Regen spell, chance to proc free spells = stratagem charges) and Scholar as the WHM (S H I E L D S). Remember that once Afflatus Solace came into play WHM blew everyone else away

Edited, Aug 2nd 2013 9:14pm by Viertel


This is an excellent post, and really summarizes why scholar can and will be an effective healing class on par with whm. When I read through the abilities, all I could say was wow, they did a great job of balancing this class with whm, yet making it unique enough that there wasn't much overlap. The whole shield concept on top of heals is very well thought out and I can see being crucial in certain fights. I'm very excited to see how both classes compare once release hits... and this is coming from someone who has never roled a healer in an mmo ever.
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#35 Aug 03 2013 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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I really doubt you'll ever see a "we want this over this class" in this game.


It comes down the the skill of the player and the experience.
#36 Aug 03 2013 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Once open beta starts, I am sure it will take at least 3 days and we will know how effective the SCH is.

I also wanted to play a healer but WHM was not really appealing to me, so once I am done with BLM I am off to SCH.
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#37 Aug 03 2013 at 7:27 PM Rating: Default
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White Mage
Cure: 300 potency
Cure2: 500 potency
Cure3: 400 potency AoE
Medica: 250 potency AoE
Medica2: 350 potency AoE + 50 potency Regen/15s
Regen: 50 potency Regen/21s
Esuna: Removes one status effect
Stoneskin: 18% hp shield
Benediction: Full heal target

Scholar
Succor: 300 potency + Barrier:Healed
Succor2: 150 potency AoE + Barrier:Healed
Leeches: Removes one status effect
Sacred Soil: 10% damage reduction AoE
Lustrate: Instant 20% heal

Fairy
Embrace: 300 potency
Whispering Dawn: 100 potency Regen/21s

It’s really difficult to tell just from looking at the raw numbers, but at first glance, it looks like SCH won’t be challenging WHM in terms of raw healing potential anytime soon. That said, it really depends on how often the fairy can cast, and how intelligent it is. It could potentially be a very powerful healer if the pet keeps pretty consistent heals up. At the moment though, it looks like an efficient raid healer, with some really nice utilities to throw at the main tank, particularly the instant heal.

Addendum: I'm sure Scholar can heal 4 mans. As far as 8 and 24, Scholar is nice because it can play support and DPS better than White Mage from the looks of it, so in fights where less healers are needed, Scholar can shift roles more easily. It's hard to say but I'd say an even split between the two will probably be ideal.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2013 6:36pm by RamseySylph
#38 Aug 03 2013 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
White Mage
Cure: 300 potency
Cure2: 500 potency
Cure3: 400 potency AoE
Medica: 250 potency AoE
Medica2: 350 potency AoE + 50 potency Regen/15s
Regen: 50 potency Regen/21s
Esuna: Removes one status effect
Stoneskin: 18% hp shield
Benediction: Full heal target

Scholar
Succor: 300 potency + Barrier:Healed
Succor2: 150 potency AoE + Barrier:Healed
Leeches: Removes one status effect
Sacred Soil: 10% damage reduction AoE
Lustrate: Instant 20% heal

Fairy
Embrace: 300 potency
Whispering Dawn: 100 potency Regen/21s


Abilities crossed out are either moot/wash or can be shared cross class (Stoneskin and Cure as .dat mining showed before they were "taken down"). Plus, you're giving WHM too much credit in terms of raw number of heals.

First of all, you're going to using Cure as your filler, Cure II when you get that proc, and Cure III if you get a proc from Cure III or if you absolutely have to blow a lot of mana at once. You have two different AoE spells of different potency but ultimately you'll more than likely use Medica II because of the reduction of potency to Medica II in P4 (it's down to 200 potency now with a 100 regen --- more mana than Medica for the same healing except that 33% of that's converted into a HoT).

So you're down to Cure with 400 potency post-adjustments ( on a tiered proc system ) versus Succor with 300 potency (100% shield for 100% of the amount that would have been cured -- this is the important part) and Succor beats the pants off of Cure. Period. 300 potency with a 300 potency shield is a total of 600 potency effective healing and last time I checked that beats the pants off of a 400 potency heal. That's also not considering that Arcanist is listed as being able to slot Cure for pre-Succor healing.

Effective healing is what matters, not what the raw amount is. A Cure for 800 is *not* better than a Succor for 600 with a 600 shield.

Medica I with 300 potency post-adjustment and Succor II with 150 potency with equivalent shield are literally equal. Medica II with 200 upfront and 100 regen later is the same potency. All three AoE healing spells are equal (unless Succor II crits and then it wins hands down with the double shield effect).

So that least Stoneskin versus the 20% ground effect reduction. Stoneskin's nice for the pull and then as of P3 wasn't worth bothering with behind due to the cast time, mana cost, and relatively little it cures for. If it were an instant cast it would be worth weaving in during high mana situations but it currently isn't.

WHM has Regen which is still a piddly 150 potency post adjustments going in P4. If you've got a 100 base cure (potency 100) that's still only 150 health across the 18 second duration (6 ticks, 25 a tick with a high mana cost). Sounds OK in theory and it is but it's not worth casting for what you could do with a single cure cast. Cast time is the same, so which sounds more worth your time -- the 400 cure or 250 over 18 seconds for double or triple the mana cost? Regen either needs a reduction in mana cost or a massive potency boost to actually become useful.

So that least Benediction (6 minute cooldown) versus an instant (with a 1 second GCD mind you) cure for 20% of a target's health. Bene's nice for a "O SH--" moment and that's about it. Lustrate is more than likely going to be too expensive to spam so that's not really that impressive either but it's still more useful.

~~~

No, I don't see a support healer and a main healer. I see two almost identically powerful healers that work fine in all roles. I see one with a larger toolkit that's extremely situational and I see one with a smaller toolkit that's refined and useable almost all the time.

This is FFXIV, not FFXI 2.0; stop trying to push WHM as the only real healer. The kind of game FFXIV is built to be doesn't support only one "main healer" like FFXI did (and did terribly).

Oh, and this was all without even bothering with the Fairy. I'm literally talking pure White Mage healing versus pure Scholar (master only) healing. Just looking at the numbers, actually looking at them and reading what they're saying, shows both can heal equally well but Scholar's abilities with the shield has the greater potential for the higher effective healing output.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2013 11:24pm by Viertel
#39 Aug 03 2013 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:
Things.


Everything hinges on what Erects a barrier nullifying damage equal to the amount of hp restored actually means. Admittedly, ability text is often misleading or miss printed, but this seems to imply overhealing isn't counted for the barrier. I'm also wondering if the barrier overwrites existing barriers. Because in practice the barrier effect may not actually come out to making a 300 potency succor always have a 300 potency barrier.

It should be noted that I did not include things like procs, such Freecure and Overcure, and I also did not include White Mage's various self buffs, like Divine Seal, Presence of Mind, etc. Because Arcanist has little in the way of natural healing skills, White Mage has a lot more utility and passive healing bonuses.

Cast time & MP cost are also going to play a role we can't account for quite yet. It still looks to me like WHM will be the better main tank healer by a small margin, but we'll really have to wait and see. Regardless, I'd certainly want a mix of both in a raid.
#40 Aug 03 2013 at 11:24 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:


Everything hinges on what Erects a barrier nullifying damage equal to the amount of hp restored actually means. Admittedly, ability text is often misleading or miss printed, but this seems to imply overhealing isn't counted for the barrier. I'm also wondering if the barrier overwrites existing barriers. Because in practice the barrier effect may not actually come out to making a 300 potency succor always have a 300 potency barrier.

That's really not going to matter.

I'm assuming it just looks at your healing result and doubles the number, but If Succor doesn't count overhealing, all it means is that the SCH uses Cure to top off. Really not any kind of issue at all.

What actually matters regarding the barrier is "What kind of damage can the barrier stop?"

RamseySylph wrote:

[...]
Cast time & MP cost are also going to play a role we can't account for quite yet. It still looks to me like WHM will be the better main tank healer by a small margin, but we'll really have to wait and see. Regardless, I'd certainly want a mix of both in a raid.


I think you're pigeon-holing the wrong jobs into the roles here.

With what's been demonstrated for SCH so far, SCH appears to be designed to mitigate how fast incoming damage comes in. It's pretty similar to Rift's Purifier soul. WHM, on the other hand, is big numbers. The damage is done, so fix the problem, so to speak. The only way you're going to get any mileage out of that Succor barrier is on a target constantly taking damage. Otherwise you may as well just use Cure.
#41 Aug 03 2013 at 11:55 PM Rating: Good
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
I really doubt you'll ever see a "we want this over this class" in this game.


It comes down the the skill of the player and the experience.


No, it usually comes down to just how hard the content is and how well the classes are balanced against each other.

Against the hardest content, skilled/experienced players are considered a given. Beyond that point it turns into an examination of math and specific strategies. This has played out in every single MMO ever. If content is hard, people seek to min/max as much as they can, and part of that involves figuring out which class or classes fulfill a role most efficiently. The more closely balanced the classes are, the harder the content has to be in order to force min maxing, but at some level of challenge it is inevitable.

So we could very easily see people wanting specific classes to complete specific content. We saw it in FFXI, we've seen it in WoW, we've seen in in every single game that's attempted to give players very challenging content.

Edited, Aug 4th 2013 1:57am by KarlHungis
#42 Aug 04 2013 at 12:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Ravashack wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:


Everything hinges on what Erects a barrier nullifying damage equal to the amount of hp restored actually means. Admittedly, ability text is often misleading or miss printed, but this seems to imply overhealing isn't counted for the barrier. I'm also wondering if the barrier overwrites existing barriers. Because in practice the barrier effect may not actually come out to making a 300 potency succor always have a 300 potency barrier.

That's really not going to matter.

I'm assuming it just looks at your healing result and doubles the number, but If Succor doesn't count overhealing, all it means is that the SCH uses Cure to top off. Really not any kind of issue at all.

What actually matters regarding the barrier is "What kind of damage can the barrier stop?"

RamseySylph wrote:

[...]
Cast time & MP cost are also going to play a role we can't account for quite yet. It still looks to me like WHM will be the better main tank healer by a small margin, but we'll really have to wait and see. Regardless, I'd certainly want a mix of both in a raid.


I think you're pigeon-holing the wrong jobs into the roles here.

With what's been demonstrated for SCH so far, SCH appears to be designed to mitigate how fast incoming damage comes in. It's pretty similar to Rift's Purifier soul. WHM, on the other hand, is big numbers. The damage is done, so fix the problem, so to speak. The only way you're going to get any mileage out of that Succor barrier is on a target constantly taking damage. Otherwise you may as well just use Cure.



You make some good points Ravashack, and you're right, assuming MP and cast times aren't any less efficient, Succor is better put to use healing a tank (I suppose this is SE's idea of poking at us Paladins who used to have Holy Succor.) That said, my point still remains about how Succor overwrite works. If we assume that like stoneskin it doesn't stack, then in a large raid situation, if 2 healers are needed on the tank, it'd be best to have 1 SCH and 1 WHM, 2 SCHs would be overwriting eachother's barriers in many cases.

For an 8 man, putting SCH's abilities to use primarily healing the tank is probably the best bet. MP efficiency, cast speed, and how the secondary mechanics work remain to really determine which is outright better.
#43 Aug 04 2013 at 4:03 AM Rating: Good
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If the barrier doesn't stack with or overwrite itself, then you're just going to see the SCH alternate Succor -> Cure -> Succor -> Cure, and not necessarily back to back there either. (Heh. Sucker Cures.) Even if it did overwrite itself, unless the recipient is getting that entire barrier wiped out in one hit, it's a complete waste of MP to spam it anyway.

That being said, you're right in that it's best to see 1 SCH and 1 WHM if two healers are needed on a tank. There's no real good reason to stack two SCH on the same recipient in a raid situation anyway.
#44 Aug 04 2013 at 6:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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KarlHungis wrote:
HaibaneRenmei wrote:
I really doubt you'll ever see a "we want this over this class" in this game.


It comes down the the skill of the player and the experience.


No, it usually comes down to just how hard the content is and how well the classes are balanced against each other.

Against the hardest content, skilled/experienced players are considered a given. Beyond that point it turns into an examination of math and specific strategies. This has played out in every single MMO ever. If content is hard, people seek to min/max as much as they can, and part of that involves figuring out which class or classes fulfill a role most efficiently. The more closely balanced the classes are, the harder the content has to be in order to force min maxing, but at some level of challenge it is inevitable.

So we could very easily see people wanting specific classes to complete specific content. We saw it in FFXI, we've seen it in WoW, we've seen in in every single game that's attempted to give players very challenging content.

Edited, Aug 4th 2013 1:57am by KarlHungis

The problem with min/maxing is this... only maybe 5% of players are actually good enough, and efficient enough to be in that category, but once they do, everyone thinks that's the only way to do things when in reality after that 5% player ability becomes a much much greater factor in success. A top tier world first guild might kill a boss using one class over another because it allowed a 1% damage increase over another, and when racing against other world first quality guilds that might matter, but unless you're in that tier you've already lost that minor advantage.

So yea, I'm sure someone will do the math, someone will have a spreadsheet that shows if both classes are played perfectly over a long fight, one is greater than the other, and then the community will parrot that, but in reality as long as the numbers are close both classes will be essentially equal for 95% of the playerbase.
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#45 Aug 04 2013 at 8:37 AM Rating: Default
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Anakte wrote:

The problem with min/maxing is this... only maybe 5% of players are actually good enough, and efficient enough to be in that category, but once they do, everyone thinks that's the only way to do things when in reality after that 5% player ability becomes a much much greater factor in success. A top tier world first guild might kill a boss using one class over another because it allowed a 1% damage increase over another, and when racing against other world first quality guilds that might matter, but unless you're in that tier you've already lost that minor advantage.

So yea, I'm sure someone will do the math, someone will have a spreadsheet that shows if both classes are played perfectly over a long fight, one is greater than the other, and then the community will parrot that, but in reality as long as the numbers are close both classes will be essentially equal for 95% of the playerbase.


I think your figure is a bit low honestly. I'd place 10% of FFXI players into that category alone. Sure maybe only 5% of them were good without the hand-holding, but let's examine the entire scope here. If SE can keep the classes balanced, they're won't be this much of a problem. That's my concern though, SE never knew how to balance any classes in FFXI. MNK was garbage for a time because it couldn't make a certain skill chain. DRG was laughed at when they nerfed one WS, but that turned around with pink birds. PLD was a work in progress in both FFXI( and FFXIV too) and always felt situational at best. Simply put, FFXIV is easier to learn than previous games. The stats aren't as hidden, the mechanics are simplistic, there is no insane macro swapping, and the game just feels easier to grasp. Based on what I've seen so far, SE has kept all classes held back to the point there is no uber class that warrants the slot. SCH or WHM probably doesn't matter if you need only one, but you're also probably better off with both if you have a 8 man party. That is the way the game should balance itself so no class is left off. If people are able to make a case that one class is better than another for "certain situations"; SE has screwed up the game balance. The only "certain situational" argument should be how you merit your class with attributes and what sub job abilities are you using on them. Anything else is failure on SE's part.
#46 Aug 04 2013 at 8:46 AM Rating: Good
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A small break from the discussions going on: Fairy screenshots and AF on all races
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#47 Aug 04 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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10% is way too high for the amount of people that it affects. For it to affect someone, they have to be in the LS entirely comprised of people in that percentage group. Sure, more people might play that efficiently, but if a group of 8 go into a boss, and 1 of them is a top notch player, and the other 7 are average, the minor differences in a SINGLE class choice will still be trumped by the player ability of the other 7. Yes, SE has done terrible balancing in the past, but assuming Yoshi can get his team to at least get classes CLOSE to each other, the differences won't matter.

I also don't see people transferring servers just to get into the "premier" guilds in XIV like they do in other mmos.

Anyway, my point stands, WHM and SCH look to both have significant and comprehensive healing tools at their disposal, and player ability for 95% of the population should play a much larger factor in success. If WHM had a cure that had 800 potency with a Regen ability for another 800 and SCH had a cure with 400 potency and no after effect, that would be significant, the numbers as they show now aren't that significant.
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#48 Aug 04 2013 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Anakte wrote:
10% is way too high for the amount of people that it affects. For it to affect someone, they have to be in the LS entirely comprised of people in that percentage group. Sure, more people might play that efficiently, but if a group of 8 go into a boss, and 1 of them is a top notch player, and the other 7 are average, the minor differences in a SINGLE class choice will still be trumped by the player ability of the other 7. Yes, SE has done terrible balancing in the past, but assuming Yoshi can get his team to at least get classes CLOSE to each other, the differences won't matter.

I also don't see people transferring servers just to get into the "premier" guilds in XIV like they do in other mmos.


That's fine if you believe that, but I don't so let's just agree to disagree. If you had any facts other than touting an opinion, maybe you'd be able to persuade me. I agree if Yoshi can retain the balance, this won't be an issue. Let's hope that's the case so we never have to deal with this scenario.
#49 Aug 04 2013 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
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Anakte wrote:

The problem with min/maxing is this... only maybe 5% of players are actually good enough, and efficient enough to be in that category, but once they do, everyone thinks that's the only way to do things when in reality after that 5% player ability becomes a much much greater factor in success. A top tier world first guild might kill a boss using one class over another because it allowed a 1% damage increase over another, and when racing against other world first quality guilds that might matter, but unless you're in that tier you've already lost that minor advantage.

So yea, I'm sure someone will do the math, someone will have a spreadsheet that shows if both classes are played perfectly over a long fight, one is greater than the other, and then the community will parrot that, but in reality as long as the numbers are close both classes will be essentially equal for 95% of the playerbase.


I think this analysis is way off apart from the fact that you're just choosing an arbitrary number.

First of all, the number of people affected has a lot to do with the amount of discrepancy. If you're talking about a 10-20% difference in gross damage output for example then that's going to have an impact on literally any party, no matter what they're doing, and that's going to drive preferences even on easy content, because people want to finish trivial content more quickly or with lower repair bills or whatever, even if they are mostly guaranteed to finish it either way.

Secondly, it really depends on the effort needed to get the most of out any class, which may present a different picture at mid/low skill levels than at max. Maybe in the hands of a very skilled player, every damage dealer can put out the same damage, but in the hands of a mediocre player, dragoon wins hands down because it's just simpler than managing stances and positional requirements, etc. Well then, over time, most players are going to prefer partying with dragoons, and most players will prefer playing a dragoon if their goal is to get good damage without trying to become an expert player. For much of the life of WoW, Hunters were shunned in groups, even though an expert player could get very good damage and superior CC from them, because frankly, most players were casual and caused all kinds of problems by letting their pet run wild, multi-shotting CC'd mobs, etc.

There is no 5% or 10% limit on who is affected by class disparities. The bottom line is it always matters 1) How difficult the content is compared to the players and 2) How noticeable the performance difference is between classes.

With regard to the original poster I responded to, you can *never* say that the community won't develop strong preferences for which classes they want to play or group with, because this thing is always in motion and things are always changing. The very structure of the game ensures that from time to time there will be a perception that one class or another is superior or inferior.

The one nice thing about FFXIV compared to many other MMOs, is that as a player you can prepare for this eventuality by playing many different classes and jobs, so you're in a strong position to take advantage of these sorts of imbalances instead of being taken advantage of.
#50 Aug 04 2013 at 4:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Player of the job>the job itself

That is what will tell you which is better. All depends on the skill level of the player playing the class.
#51 Aug 04 2013 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
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Considering the great job Yoshi has done in making this game the best of all worlds... my assumption is they will make the ideal situation having both types of healers (in a group of 8 or more anyways)

DCUO handled this by making two of the same healer spells overwrite the others.. therefore making raid groups grab one of each type rather then going with only one or the other.

I'd assume they will incorporate something similar to make it more balanced.
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