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#77 Aug 07 2013 at 6:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Two of my best friends from FFXI pretty much ruined their high school and college social lives because of FFXI. To this day, one of them refuses to ever play another MMORPG because of the setback FFXI put him in. He didn't understand how to communicate in the real world and he basically missed out on the entire college experience because he was too shy to even initiate conversations with people.

I'm not saying this to try and justify making games easier, I'm saying this to give examples of what an overly hardcore game can do to people. Trust me, I'm all for hardcore content that is extremely challenging, and I honestly wouldn't even mind if there were things in the games similar to the relic weapons of FFXI that took an incredible amount of time to get, as long as it could be done in small doses. What I'm not interested in are the 24-72 hour HNMs where you have to be basically glued to your screen for 3-4 hours every day in hopes of getting claim, or 12-24 hours sitting during a spawn window so that your LS can get there first (hi2u Tiamat). Or the 8 hour sky runs to try and get full popsets for ONE chance to spawn a God. I missed so many social events myself because I was "too busy" waiting for a mob to spawn, or having my life scheduled around our linkshells events.

If there are people who still want that, so be it. They can form their own free companies and go grind away on whatever hard content is available. I just know there are also a lot of people who don't want that anymore. I'm truly hopeful the game caters to both types of players. I'm not trying to be conceded and say that my playstyle is the only one that matters. I want something to make everyone happy, and I honestly believe that Yoshi is the type of producer that will accomplish this. The argument goes both ways, let's just wait and see what actually happens in game before getting out our pitchforks.
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#78 Aug 07 2013 at 6:38 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha,
I actually agree with you. I can't make a long post about it because it's murder trying to type anything of length on this phone, but if you look at the bottom of the post I made you will see that I don't need the type of game ffxi was (even though I enjoyed it for the most part).

Did I get a sense of accomplishment from doing endgame stuff with my linkshell? Yes. But it's in the past now and I wouldn't want to deal with it again in a modern MMO, nor would it make the MMO as much money in the current gaming climate.
I'm fine with the new direction, but that doesn't mean I felt my time was completely wasted in FFXI.
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#79 Aug 07 2013 at 7:50 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:

2) Also this. I usually see the argument on here that they like ARR being casual and solo/instance teleporty-friendly because they have a life now, unlike when they played FF11!


I think most of the 30 somethings on the board are tired of the time sink. Example: Shout: Party <I need it>. *Wait 30 minutes* "Party? Meet us in XXXX." 5 minutes to grab gear and hop on chocobo or 15 mintes to wait on airship, then 5 minutes to get on chocobo. 30 minutes to ride out. 20 minutes to help the guy that got lost. 30 minutes to wait on the healer to make ****. Then finally, almost two hours after you actually wanted to level do you actually get to level. At minimum. Why? Waiting on other people Smiley: glare

Killua125 wrote:

Well... there's now a younger generation who filled your spot and maybe they have a ton of time to burn like you used to. There absolutely has to be stuff for those people IMO.


Younger generation I assume you mean the 17-25 group. You want a really social MMO that focuses on society play EVE Online. Or you could play FFXI and pretend that Abyssea doesn't exist. Or for God sakes get out from behind your computer and go down to the card shop on a Friday and play in a Magic the Gathering tournament. Or *gasp* the younger generation could join a party of four to eight friends in FFXIV:ARR and play FATEs, or dungeons, or go take on an incredibly tough mob and have fun. Who cares about exp gain / second, the younger generation has a lot of time to kill right? Smiley: dubious


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#80 Aug 07 2013 at 7:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not sure I agree with the whole "WoW clone" idea that's being passed around this thread. Now, before you race to click that red arrow up there hear me out for a moment.

When I think of WoW and it's influence on modern MMOs, I don't see a world full of WoW clones. There are a number of things WoW did very well over its competition. WoW had two major things that led to its success: it came out at a time when the market wasnt flooded with competition, and it had some very intuitive gameplay elements. Now regardless of the origin of those gameplay elements, they were still good and made the game very easy to get into. The game had a lot of smart design decisions implemented. Naturally players would flock to the game. I'm looking at the game from a design perspective.

I see no problem with a game that draws inspiration from those design elements. They're used across the industry because they work. Period. There's no point in re-inventing the wheel when you don't have to. SE tried something unique with 1.0 and got raked over the coals for it. FFXIV 1.0 had the opposite of WoW, bad design decisions all around. They thought they could invent their own wheel and lost. This is why so many games use similar mechanics, when studios see something that works they can draw inspiration from it.

Innovation comes from taking somethimg that works and improving upon it. From what I've played of FFXIV it does just that. I feel like it takes gameplay design elements from other games and makes its own little improvement on them, giving the game an identity of its own. Every game does this in their own way. It's just that from my perspective so many people are getting hung up on the words "WoW clone" that they're blinding themselves to the good gameplay elements and designs at work in the game.
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#81 Aug 07 2013 at 7:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Two of my best friends from FFXI pretty much ruined their high school and college social lives because of FFXI. To this day, one of them refuses to ever play another MMORPG because of the setback FFXI put him in. He didn't understand how to communicate in the real world and he basically missed out on the entire college experience because he was too shy to even initiate conversations with people.

I'm not saying this to try and justify making games easier, I'm saying this to give examples of what an overly hardcore game can do to people.



Can't pay for FFXIV if you lost your job from playing FFXIV. I think Yoshi understands.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 8:59am by Valkayree
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#82 Aug 07 2013 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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if people want another WoW clone i can list a good 1-20 of them now, if this is yet another over cualised mmorpg and same old junk as developers keep rehashing it will quickly die out.


And this is where the argument breaks down for me..

I don't understand where people get this idea that WoW is the poster child for easy, casual MMOs. Heroic raids and challenge modes (y'know.. the hard content) are actually quite hard.

Yes, there are easier versions of these things for players who don't want that level of difficulty, but if that's your problem then you aren't talking about being hardcore, you're talking about being exclusionary. Games have had difficulty settings forever, get over it.

There's no way to know if FFXIV's hard content is hard enough because none of it has been available for beta testing.
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#83 Aug 07 2013 at 8:16 AM Rating: Excellent
Ravashack wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me if the OP is a shill of some kind. Kind of like these ones, only in this case, he/she/it has a copypasta'd post to use instead of having to make it up. It's also probably not SE, unless they're totally insane and want to shoot themselves in the foot with something this stupid.


Pretty obvious that it was. One post, used to start this mess. So it basically threw a steak into a pack of starving dogs and here we are.
#84 Aug 07 2013 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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Here's a fun fact: When I started playing FFXI I was 38 years old. I had a full time job as I do now (thank god...was unemployed for half a year a while back and I'm appreciative of the fact that I'm employed in this economy), so I didn't get to waste my days and nights playing as much as the younger players might have.
I'm 48 now but I'm glad things have evolved past the concept of days spent trying to gain a level while grinding caterpillars in Crawler's Nest and waiting the whole evening for a party that never formed.

I did all that, but it was a pain to advance your character when you only had about 4 hours or less on a weeknight to attempt it. I have fond memories to go with the bad ones (took me a few years to complete COP due to forced party disbands due to JP midnight requirements...by the time I tried to continue the rest of the party wasn't around or were already past that point).

There can be challenges in this new MMORPG climate, they just don't have to equate to the old methods of grinding and waiting around to advance due to timesinks.
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#85 Aug 07 2013 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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I kinda wish it was a combination.

Like for parties: There's no excuse for party forming to still be as involved as it was in FFXI, but I don't think players need to be handheld that much after the initial formation of the party. I definitely don't like teleporting to instances overall. There's also no punishment for being unprepared.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 11:08am by Killua125
#86 Aug 07 2013 at 9:23 AM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:


And this is where the argument breaks down for me..

I don't understand where people get this idea that WoW is the poster child for easy, casual MMOs. Heroic raids and challenge modes (y'know.. the hard content) are actually quite hard.

Yes, there are easier versions of these things for players who don't want that level of difficulty, but if that's your problem then you aren't talking about being hardcore, you're talking about being exclusionary. Games have had difficulty settings forever, get over it.

There's no way to know if FFXIV's hard content is hard enough because none of it has been available for beta testing.


So in your mind, casual directly correlates to easy? Because I didn't get that at all from reading his post.
#87 Aug 07 2013 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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Chialing wrote:
Here's a fun fact: When I started playing FFXI I was 38 years old. I had a full time job as I do now (thank god...was unemployed for half a year a while back and I'm appreciative of the fact that I'm employed in this economy), so I didn't get to waste my days and nights playing as much as the younger players might have.
I'm 48 now but I'm glad things have evolved past the concept of days spent trying to gain a level while grinding caterpillars in Crawler's Nest and waiting the whole evening for a party that never formed.

I did all that, but it was a pain to advance your character when you only had about 4 hours or less on a weeknight to attempt it. I have fond memories to go with the bad ones (took me a few years to complete COP due to forced party disbands due to JP midnight requirements...by the time I tried to continue the rest of the party wasn't around or were already past that point).

There can be challenges in this new MMORPG climate, they just don't have to equate to the old methods of grinding and waiting around to advance due to timesinks.


I think we have walked in the same shoes, good sir.
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#88 Aug 07 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
I kinda wish it was a combination.

Like for parties: There's no excuse for party forming to still be as involved as it was in FFXI, but I don't think players need to be handheld that much after the initial formation of the party. I definitely don't like teleporting to instances overall. There's also no punishment for being unprepared.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 11:08am by Killua125


You would rather spend an hour walking to an instance, only to die and wipe due to someone else being unprepared, then rinse and repeat for a total of two to four wasted hours? There is a middle ground between holding someone's hand and throwing them off of a cliff.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 11:31am by Valkayree
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#89 Aug 07 2013 at 9:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:


And this is where the argument breaks down for me..

I don't understand where people get this idea that WoW is the poster child for easy, casual MMOs. Heroic raids and challenge modes (y'know.. the hard content) are actually quite hard.

Yes, there are easier versions of these things for players who don't want that level of difficulty, but if that's your problem then you aren't talking about being hardcore, you're talking about being exclusionary. Games have had difficulty settings forever, get over it.

There's no way to know if FFXIV's hard content is hard enough because none of it has been available for beta testing.


So in your mind, casual directly correlates to easy? Because I didn't get that at all from reading his post.


Then you didn't try very hard

Quote:
The game needs difficulty and it also needs your so call "time consummation" as a game that can be beaten and face rolled within 1-3 months won't have high retention rate.


Without knowing exactly what "time consummation" is... sounds like a rule 34 issue.. virtually every argument that involves the word "casual" as relates to MMOs directly translates to "easy."
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#90 Aug 07 2013 at 10:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm all for a game being hard, after all I'm a huge fan of the Dark Souls franchise, but I can't stand time sinks because I don't have the time I once had. The problem seems (to me) to be that most pople seem to equate huge time sinks to difficulty when that isn't the case. I found FFXI to be quite easy during the 5 years I played it but everything that you did just took forever. When I had the time, that wasn't an issue but not that I'm older and don't due to my job and family, time sinks like FFXI hold very little appeal. Dark Souls, is a game that while difficult, allows for quick progression through content and levels as long as you continue to improve your own skills as a player. It shouldn't be difficult for a MMO to allow progression quickly for the people who are restricted on time like me while maintaining a higher difficulty level for the hardcore players as well.
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#91 Aug 07 2013 at 10:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Valkayree wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I kinda wish it was a combination.

Like for parties: There's no excuse for party forming to still be as involved as it was in FFXI, but I don't think players need to be handheld that much after the initial formation of the party. I definitely don't like teleporting to instances overall. There's also no punishment for being unprepared.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 11:08am by Killua125


You would rather spend an hour walking to an instance, only to die and wipe due to someone else being unprepared, then rinse and repeat for a total of two to four wasted hours? Are you a sado *********? There is a middle ground between holding someone's hand and throwing them off of a cliff.

This want sounds so absurd, I don't even know what to say.

It's like saying I enjoy jogging to meet competitors at the basketball court and asking authorities to strip away all forms of cars, trains, or whatever. It's a choice to jog. I can find friends who enjoy jogging as well and jog together. It would be selfish, rude, and ridiculous of me to make everyone else jog, if that was even possible.
#92 Aug 07 2013 at 10:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't be a ********* because I would make sure that my group was prepared and I wasn't wasting my time. We're just different kinds of gamers.

(Edit: Well, I would do my best to prepare. I know you can't always be 100% and things can go wrong. But yes I do like that element of danger there.)

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 12:26pm by Killua125
#93 Aug 07 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
Valkayree wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I kinda wish it was a combination.

Like for parties: There's no excuse for party forming to still be as involved as it was in FFXI, but I don't think players need to be handheld that much after the initial formation of the party. I definitely don't like teleporting to instances overall. There's also no punishment for being unprepared.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 11:08am by Killua125


You would rather spend an hour walking to an instance, only to die and wipe due to someone else being unprepared, then rinse and repeat for a total of two to four wasted hours? Are you a sado *********? There is a middle ground between holding someone's hand and throwing them off of a cliff.

This want sounds so absurd, I don't even know what to say.

It's like saying I enjoy jogging to meet competitors at the basketball court and asking authorities to strip away all forms of cars, trains, or whatever. It's a choice to jog. I can find friends who enjoy jogging as well and jog together. It would be selfish, rude, and ridiculous of me to make everyone else jog, if that was even possible.


Jogging just makes my shins hurt.
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#94 Aug 07 2013 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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Dungeons have a quest and level requirement. If it's a level 30 dungeon, someone joins, you see they have level 15 gear, you have 2 choices: Ask them to leave or leave yourself. Any other prep is downright up to you to make sure people know their ****, because if you don't do that, you're falling into that category of people I mentioned who get angry about their peers being "unprepared" and being unwilling to help.

That punishment you crave for failure manifests in repair fees and wasted time. Frankly, I hate equipment durability systems as they just translate to "grind more" just as EXP loss did in XI, but I'd at least consider it more tolerable than leveling down. Demanding anything more is just you being an *******.
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#95 Aug 07 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Who remembers in FFXI spending an hour or so scraping together a group to go do a story mission, spending 30 or so minutes travelling to the location, 30 more minutes farming whatever item you would need to get past the gate or use during the boss fight, more time navigating the dungeon to fight the boss only for one or two party members be denied entry because they didnt go talk to some no name npc in one of the towns to progress in the story to be eligible to enter the fight?

Do people really want that again?
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#96 Aug 07 2013 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
I wouldn't be a ********* because I would make sure that my group was prepared and I wasn't wasting my time. We're just different kinds of gamers.

(Edit: Well, I would do my best to prepare. I know you can't always be 100% and things can go wrong. But yes I do like that element of danger there.)

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 12:26pm by Killua125


That makes sense, you are the type of gamer that has a group of tight knit folks who are well prepared. No problem with that. Bonus points for awesome.

By S&M I was referring to the seeming correlation that hardcore gaming = manually running to instances. Teleportation will not make the game less difficult. How many times have you been stuck in 5:00 traffic or faced an hour commute in rl and wished you could teleport? It wouldn't make your life less hard, I mean driving is not that difficult a task, but if you could teleport then you could free up some time to actually tackle more of the hard stuff, and as a bonus you could get more sleep or time in with your family. Nothing wrong with that. SE is facing a crisis where their oldest fan base who was actually alive to play FF on the NES or Famicom when it released are now greying and have grandkids, or at least in their early 30s. They want to play until they get arthritis, but want to see their kids grow up as well. Your kids have to come first, or a whole world of bad can happen...

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#97 Aug 07 2013 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
Dungeons have a quest and level requirement. If it's a level 30 dungeon, someone joins, you see they have level 15 gear, you have 2 choices: Ask them to leave or leave yourself. Any other prep is downright up to you to make sure people know their sh*t, because if you don't do that, you're falling into that category of people I mentioned who get angry about their peers being "unprepared" and being unwilling to help.

That punishment you crave for failure manifests in repair fees and wasted time. Frankly, I hate equipment durability systems as they just translate to "grind more" just as EXP loss did in XI, but I'd at least consider it more tolerable than leveling down. Demanding anything more is just you being an @#%^.



I have always personally disliked armor durability. It seems like your armor always breaks too fast and costs too much to repair.
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#98 Aug 07 2013 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
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By its very nature, it makes playing a tank a more expensive endeavor as they're likely the first to go down if **** hits the fan. That alone is enough to make me dislike it, because the tank's death might not be the fault of the tank at all. What does he learn from his healer being an idiot or other party members not reacting to a specific situation properly? But I've also rambled on this more in an old death penalty thread, which seemed to anger your crotchety hardcores if the usual volley of red arrows was any indication.
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#99 Aug 07 2013 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
By its very nature, it makes playing a tank a more expensive endeavor as they're likely the first to go down if sh*t hits the fan. That alone is enough to make me dislike it, because the tank's death might not be the fault of the tank at all. What does he learn from his healer being an idiot or other party members not reacting to a specific situation properly? But I've also rambled on this more in an old death penalty thread, which seemed to anger your crotchety hardcores if the usual volley of red arrows was any indication.


You can always find your own healer, party up, and then enter the dungeons, right?
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#100 Aug 07 2013 at 11:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Two of my best friends from FFXI pretty much ruined their high school and college social lives because of FFXI. To this day, one of them refuses to ever play another MMORPG because of the setback FFXI put him in. He didn't understand how to communicate in the real world and he basically missed out on the entire college experience because he was too shy to even initiate conversations with people.

I'm not saying this to try and justify making games easier, I'm saying this to give examples of what an overly hardcore game can do to people. Trust me, I'm all for hardcore content that is extremely challenging, and I honestly wouldn't even mind if there were things in the games similar to the relic weapons of FFXI that took an incredible amount of time to get, as long as it could be done in small doses. What I'm not interested in are the 24-72 hour HNMs where you have to be basically glued to your screen for 3-4 hours every day in hopes of getting claim, or 12-24 hours sitting during a spawn window so that your LS can get there first (hi2u Tiamat). Or the 8 hour sky runs to try and get full popsets for ONE chance to spawn a God. I missed so many social events myself because I was "too busy" waiting for a mob to spawn, or having my life scheduled around our linkshells events.

If there are people who still want that, so be it. They can form their own free companies and go grind away on whatever hard content is available. I just know there are also a lot of people who don't want that anymore. I'm truly hopeful the game caters to both types of players. I'm not trying to be conceded and say that my playstyle is the only one that matters. I want something to make everyone happy, and I honestly believe that Yoshi is the type of producer that will accomplish this. The argument goes both ways, let's just wait and see what actually happens in game before getting out our pitchforks.


I have a friend who will also never play FFXIV or any other MMO again for that matter, because of what FFXI did to him.. he lost his job, and his wife came within a hair of leaving him over it...

FFXI was too much hardcore. HNM camping was just ridiculous... I'll personally not be going the hardcore route ever again...

I'm getting married and my fiance plays with me... so we'll not be doing any HNM for sure. Maybe some raids and other content that can be done in a short amount of time... but no 72 hour camps, or 8 hour sky/sea runs...

Bartel I couldn't have said it better myself.
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#101 Aug 07 2013 at 11:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Valkayree wrote:
Seriha wrote:
By its very nature, it makes playing a tank a more expensive endeavor as they're likely the first to go down if sh*t hits the fan. That alone is enough to make me dislike it, because the tank's death might not be the fault of the tank at all. What does he learn from his healer being an idiot or other party members not reacting to a specific situation properly? But I've also rambled on this more in an old death penalty thread, which seemed to anger your crotchety hardcores if the usual volley of red arrows was any indication.


You can always find your own healer, party up, and then enter the dungeons, right?

In a perfect world, yeah. PUGs will always carry a certain element of unpredictability, though.
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