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Producer Letter LIVE VIII English Translations: Phase 4 8/17Follow

#177 Aug 09 2013 at 4:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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If there weren't hardcore players, there would be no glue holding the community together, organizing it, and keeping it motivated to continue playing.


Yeah, no.

Hardcore players are great for keeping each other motivated, but I'd be willing to guess that most players don't interact much with the "hardcores." Not because they don't want to, but because the hardcores don't usually want to. They are 1337!

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#178 Aug 09 2013 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:

A very good question. While I usually find myself defending casual players to hardcore players, hardcore players have their place too. Even though they might not nearly make up the majority of the player base, their function is essential. Casual players notoriously don't have a lot of time to devote to playing, but hardcore players do. They often end up being the ones who make the most impact on the community. They lead the linkshells. They arrive at the best strategies to use on bosses and playing your class well in general. They take the time to offer data and moderation to fan sites. Groups of hardcore players lead the charge on what's possible to accomplish in the game, making it easier for those who follow in their wake.

If there weren't hardcore players, there would be no glue holding the community together, organizing it, and keeping it motivated to continue playing.

The hyperbole is strong with you.
#179 Aug 09 2013 at 4:27 PM Rating: Excellent
It's not that I think hardcore players are pointless, but they're not any more special than anyone else, either.

Without the semi-hardcore and casual players, the hardcore players wouldn't be playing, because they wouldn't think they were impressive enough people.
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#180REDACTED, Posted: Aug 09 2013 at 4:37 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) All hardcores are, are people with too much time and too little self esteem. They over compensate for whatever perceived lacking they have by trying to be better than every other pixel. While I dont care they do this, they often come off as douches by rubbing their achievements in everyones faces.
#181 Aug 09 2013 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
It's not that I think hardcore players are pointless, but they're not any more special than anyone else, either.

Without the semi-hardcore and casual players, the hardcore players wouldn't be playing, because they wouldn't think they were impressive enough people.


I think you might be talking about elitists there.

We get bogged down in definitions, where both "hardcore" and "casual" are dirty words depending on who you're talking to.

I prefer to use those terms to indicate how much time someone is willing to invest in their gameplay. A hardcore player invests quite a bit, whereas a casual player invests less time.

I've known some very highly-skilled casual players. My guild was on a fairly casual schedule too (our stated purpose was: completing content while having a life). I've also known hardcore players who sucked....a lot.

If you want to know what hardcore players contribute to the business model, they contribute loyalty. If you can hook that player, they're with you for years. They're the evangelists for your game too, and often come with groups of like-minded people that they've played with for a long time. The more casual players will tend to be more flighty. This is MORE true in f2p games, but it's still the case in subscription games. It's easy for a casual player to lose all interest in what they're doing, because they're not that invested in the experience to begin with.

I also believe that it's possible to attract both of these groups without snubbing either one. It's tricky. But doing so contributes to a healthier environment overall and a healthier community too.
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#182 Aug 09 2013 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Let's take a look:

TwistedOwl wrote:
Xoie wrote:

Casual players notoriously don't have a lot of time to devote to playing, but hardcore players do.
Pretty reasonable. Don't think many people could argue that hardcore gamers spend more time playing. Much more.
They lead the linkshells.
Sounds about right. If you're actively recruiting members, organizing events, etc. you are a hardcore player whether you like it or not.
They arrive at the best strategies to use on bosses and playing your class well in general.
No arguments here. That comes naturally when you play and replay content, obsessing over the minutia.
They take the time to offer data and moderation to fan sites.
The second you start parsing your combat log, you cease to be a casual player
Groups of hardcore players lead the charge on what's possible to accomplish in the game, making it easier for those who follow in their wake.
Basically a restatement of what was said above

The hyperbole is strong with you.


Nope, no hyperbole here. Actual hyperbole would have been a billion million times more obvious.

Edited, Aug 9th 2013 6:41pm by Aasher
#183 Aug 09 2013 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
If there weren't hardcore players, there would be no glue holding the community together, organizing it, and keeping it motivated to continue playing.


Yeah, no.

Hardcore players are great for keeping each other motivated, but I'd be willing to guess that most players don't interact much with the "hardcores." Not because they don't want to, but because the hardcores don't usually want to. They are 1337!




Maybe I'm pouring it on a little thick. But I'm looking at this from a value-add point-of-view, not that you'll end up as best buddies. I don't think I've ever associated with that many hardcore players myself, but the community did benefit from their efforts. I've had hardcore crafters turn a high value drop into its associated high value item. I've benefitted from the wisdom of those that shared their techniques with the general population. I've benefitted from using their add-ons that helped me play better. I've benefitted from their wiki entries that told me the fastest way to complete a quest. I've benefitted from their organization of linkshells to the point where all I had to worry about was showing up on time.

I think there is a great deal that causal players benefit from in free extras that make the game a better experience. I don't necessarily believe it makes hardcore players more special but it does make the relationship mutually beneficial.
#184 Aug 09 2013 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
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Valkayree wrote:
I still have flashbacks involving me running out of invisibility powder while solo hiking the 85 miles through Aht Urghan to get blue mage (I started on XBOX so I was a lvl 30 rdm main at the time), or even worse was spending two days on the beach in Valkurm Dunes waiting on the 1% carbuncle ruby to drop for SMN. The skill factor being up there is one thing (Promyvions were challenging, but do-able provided you weren't in a party with Patrick Star), but the luck factor could have been toned down a notch.


That summoner quest still haunts me. I had 5-6 classes at cap in the 6 years I played ffxi, and in that entire time not ONCE did I see that carbuncle's ruby drop... and that's with well over 500 leech kills... RNG hated me in that game.

Xoie wrote:
A very good question. While I usually find myself defending casual players to hardcore players, hardcore players have their place too. Even though they might not nearly make up the majority of the player base, their function is essential. Casual players notoriously don't have a lot of time to devote to playing, but hardcore players do. They often end up being the ones who make the most impact on the community. They lead the linkshells. They arrive at the best strategies to use on bosses and playing your class well in general. They take the time to offer data and moderation to fan sites. Groups of hardcore players lead the charge on what's possible to accomplish in the game, making it easier for those who follow in their wake.

If there weren't hardcore players, there would be no glue holding the community together, organizing it, and keeping it motivated to continue playing.


I don't plan on being hardcore in FFXIV, but I still plan on contributing to the community and helping to organize things. I plan to make guides, help players learn the best way to play their class, etc. I don't think it requires being "hardcore" to accomplish those things you mentioned and I suppose it ultimately depends on your definition of hardcore, as reading this thread I think there are many. I think it requires a dedication to wanting to help people and to improve the gaming community, but that and being hardcore don't necessarily have to go together. I haven't really been hardcore since I played FFXI, but I've still strived to play the best I can and be successful while helping others, and I think I've achieved that in all the games I've played.

I don't think the game would suffer all that much without the hardcore players, in fact I think it would make players far more independent; instead of only trying to achieve that "cookie cutter build" or "1400 DPS" because otherwise you suck. I'm not saying I want all the hardcore players out of the game, as I do understand they have a role in figuring out THE best strategies to win fights the quickest, but I also wouldn't mind being forced to figure it out with my own Free Company, even if it's not necessarily the most efficient or fastest. I guess what I'm saying, is that I want the toughest content to be tuned towards the "midcore", the players that still contribute and help determine strategies, formulas, etc... but the ones who also have lives and aren't required to raid 5-7 nights a week.

I realize that sounds selfish, but hey, it's just what I want. It's not what I'm expecting or demanding the game to be like. It's just what my ideal game would play like.

Edited, Aug 9th 2013 7:54pm by BartelX
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#185 Aug 09 2013 at 6:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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That summoner quest still haunts me. I had 5-6 classes at cap in the 6 years I played ffxi, and in that entire time not ONCE did I see that carbuncle's ruby drop... and that's with well over 500 leech kills... RNG hated me in that game.

OMG I remember how many hours I tried. I did get it and then right after me others got it. I always thought it was somehow related to the day of the week and the weather. Never figured it out, so I just kept at it until it happened.

Shiva?

She looks too human. I like my opponents to look ugly, very ugly, with drool and sheer creepiness that scares you enough, so you are driven to kill it before you die of fright.

I mean, come on, I look at that picture and just want to go shopping with her. Hey Elvira, let's shop and then have a Cosmo lunch!






Edited, Aug 9th 2013 8:04pm by Grandmomma
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#186 Aug 09 2013 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
A couple places are saying the Unicorn Mount is only obtainable by the White Mage Class.

White Mage on Unicorn Mount Screenshot here:
http://synergyxiv.guildwork.com/forum/threads/5203b912c16e4d7b0c7ed901-letter-from-the-producer-xviii-notes

Also a second translation of the Live Notes is included at this site.

Further discussion in the forum reveals that the quest to unlock some mounts will be Class/Job specific. After you complete the quest , it will be available to all your classes.
#187 Aug 09 2013 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
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Gnu wrote:
A couple places are saying the Unicorn Mount is only obtainable by the White Mage Class.

White Mage on Unicorn Mount Screenshot here:
http://synergyxiv.guildwork.com/forum/threads/5203b912c16e4d7b0c7ed901-letter-from-the-producer-xviii-notes

Also a second translation of the Live Notes is included at this site.

Further discussion in the forum reveals that the quest to unlock some mounts will be Class/Job specific. After you complete the quest , it will be available to all your classes.


I will so level my white mage for that. Worth every cure.
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#188 Aug 09 2013 at 7:34 PM Rating: Default
Thayos wrote:

Yeah, no.

Hardcore players are great for keeping each other motivated, but I'd be willing to guess that most players don't interact much with the "hardcores." Not because they don't want to, but because the hardcores don't usually want to. They are 1337!



Hey Thayos, it's good to see you're still around man. Are you going to play ARR and if so, what server? I agree with your post too. The dubious "duplicating trick" of FFXI that led to massive bans by SE was proof that the elites don't always share info with the normal player base. It was karma that caught up to them for cheating so much. :P
#189 Aug 09 2013 at 9:41 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
It's not that I think hardcore players are pointless, but they're not any more special than anyone else, either.

Without the semi-hardcore and casual players, the hardcore players wouldn't be playing, because they wouldn't think they were impressive enough people.


Hardcore players are the people who run the tests to find out the exact effects of spells and abilities, the weights of stats in WS and other things that help incredibly in understanding how the mechanics of the games work. They're running harder content first and coming up with the best strategies and they generally have a larger impact on how the game is shaped. I don't think that makes them special, but I'd think that they deserve some credit that you can't really attribute to casual players.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
The dubious "duplicating trick" of FFXI that led to massive bans by SE was proof that the elites don't always share info with the normal player base. It was karma that caught up to them for cheating so much.

The content that duping was used on wasn't content that casual players were capable of clearing anyway. It wasn't any secret strategy that gave you an advantage in battle, it was an exploit.
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#190 Aug 09 2013 at 10:30 PM Rating: Good
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This whole casual vs hardcore argument drives me batsauce crazy. I'm a skilled gamer. I don't have 87 hours a week to dedicate to a raiding schedule. Where does that leave me?

I feel opening up the raids to the DF will allow raiding FCs to fill gaps in the roster and I would be happy to fill one. But I can't commit to a nightly raiding schedule. It's not fair to my family.

How in the hell are you supposed to get exposed to the content and excel at it if you don't have the opportunity to experience it? Allowing DF groups access to the raid areas means that they can become more skilled at that content without devoting hour upon endless hour. There aren't a finite number of drops in there right? So what does it matter how many people try it out? If you don't wanna be teamed up with some dirty casual then don't open the DF.

Sorry about being snippy...my company laid off 5,000 people today with 4500 more coming (thankfully i kept my job) and I'm feeling a bit abrasive toward entitled dbags.
#191 Aug 09 2013 at 10:45 PM Rating: Default
FilthMcNasty wrote:

The content that duping was used on wasn't content that casual players were capable of clearing anyway. It wasn't any secret strategy that gave you an advantage in battle, it was an exploit.


There is a very fine line between an exploit and game mechanics working as intended. Kiting(using landscape and bad mob AI) to exploit. Chainspell + Stun= Exploit, but it was later accepted as ok. Ninja tanking isn't an exploit, but it wasn't designed to tank either. Salvage and Nyzul aren't hard and the casuals were doing them during that time. You say it was an exploit, but let's be real, the community used exploits all the damn time. Some were ok by SE and others weren't. The invisible wall for fighting AV was another example of this. Ironically SE made the HNM so impossible it had no drops at that point. So go ahead and call it an exploit if you must, but it doesn't matter since hardcore players unlocked all these exploits and more. Some were adapted by the community is all.
#192 Aug 09 2013 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
The dubious "duplicating trick" of FFXI that led to massive bans by SE was proof that the elites don't always share info with the normal player base. It was karma that caught up to them for cheating so much.

The content that duping was used on wasn't content that casual players were capable of clearing anyway. It wasn't any secret strategy that gave you an advantage in battle, it was an exploit.

I dunno, I'd consider tripling your drops a significant advantage for future battles (Like Usu MNKs, the Salvage job of choice), as well as those who merc'ed gear out to line their pockets with gil for other ventures like relics. And while I have plenty of beefs with Salvage as an event, saying casuals couldn't do it is just more perpetuation of the over-glorification of certain players. Might they do the perfect clear? Hard to say, but they were still quite capable of targeting specific NMs, barring RNG-based ones like early Mad Bomber or Rampart NMs.

Otherwise, there's certainly lots of tips and strategies I've given to other players over the years. I was probably one of the earliest people to identify the minimum barspell duration level and its subsequent scaling. I certainly rode SE's *** on the OF when the initial iteration of Temper and its DA% sucked. I posted sources of new items when I found 'em and people were still stumped. I got a hell of a laugh when we had an elite BG-regular RDM who made it his life's work to tell us quite frequently how much we're wrong about the job and its theme went on to swear up and down that DoTs wore the moment the RDM died. I have no delusion that someone else would have done the same if I wasn't around, though, even among the melee RDM crazies with all the min/max'ing that went on there and fighting with the pro-backline trolls like the earlier mentioned. And this just scratching the surface of my XI "career". I know it's a blow to the ego to think yourself replaceable, but as long as these are coded worlds with coded rules, knowledge is finite, and all the hypothetical perfect vacuum parsing in the universe can utterly fall apart the moment you enter an actual in-game scenario. And if there's one thing I've learned, sometimes being too mathematically precise to the uninitiated can actually scare people off. So more often than not I tend to paint in broader strokes (and in phases before only having the best) unless the situation demands it. Gotta start somewhere, which is a fact too often forgotten.
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#193 Aug 09 2013 at 11:39 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
... but as long as these are coded worlds with coded rules, knowledge is finite, and all the hypothetical perfect vacuum parsing in the universe can utterly fall apart the moment you enter an actual in-game scenario. And if there's one thing I've learned, sometimes being too mathematically precise to the uninitiated can actually scare people off...


Unless you're Neo...Smiley: waycool

Edited, Aug 10th 2013 1:39am by Kierk
#194 Aug 10 2013 at 12:02 AM Rating: Good
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Not enough red pills going around, it'd seem.

Edited, Aug 10th 2013 2:02am by Seriha
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#195 Aug 10 2013 at 12:51 AM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:

The content that duping was used on wasn't content that casual players were capable of clearing anyway. It wasn't any secret strategy that gave you an advantage in battle, it was an exploit.


There is a very fine line between an exploit and game mechanics working as intended. Kiting(using landscape and bad mob AI) to exploit. Chainspell + Stun= Exploit, but it was later accepted as ok. Ninja tanking isn't an exploit, but it wasn't designed to tank either. Salvage and Nyzul aren't hard and the casuals were doing them during that time. You say it was an exploit, but let's be real, the community used exploits all the damn time. Some were ok by SE and others weren't. The invisible wall for fighting AV was another example of this. Ironically SE made the HNM so impossible it had no drops at that point. So go ahead and call it an exploit if you must, but it doesn't matter since hardcore players unlocked all these exploits and more. Some were adapted by the community is all.


I don't call them exploits because I must or even because I want to, I call them exploits because SE does. It's their game and they make the rules. It's pretty much on them to define what is and isn't working as intended. There is always grey when executing a strategy for an encounter, but since the beginning of time mobs have dropped one treasure pool. Everyone who participated knew that it wasn't working like it was supposed to.

Bad pathing is bad pathing. According to SE, there is nothing wrong with running away from something unless you are positioned such that the mob would never be able to do damage to you. People kited KB and Kirin all the time, but they still took damage. What you refer to that people used to defeat AV was called pinning. It's not the same as kiting as you can take damage while kiting, but not while pinning.

I'm just making the point that because this content was practically restricted to already well geared and coordinated groups, the knowledge wouldn't have circulated to the casual player. Even if it had, they probably wouldn't have been in a position to do anything about it. "Hey, you can kill AV with a group of KC wielding DRKs". Regardless of what you call it, it's out of reach of the casual. Most players couldn't have cared less because CoP was 'done' to them when the completed the final mission.

Edited, Aug 10th 2013 3:17am by FilthMcNasty
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#196 Aug 10 2013 at 7:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Will we have any capability to group with friends across servers? I didn't see anything in this letter that mentioned it.
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#197 Aug 10 2013 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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garethrogue wrote:
Will we have any capability to group with friends across servers? I didn't see anything in this letter that mentioned it.


No, you will either have to pay for a server transfer or hope that you get grouped together in the Duty Finder.
#198 Aug 10 2013 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:

The content that duping was used on wasn't content that casual players were capable of clearing anyway. It wasn't any secret strategy that gave you an advantage in battle, it was an exploit.

There is a very fine line between an exploit and game mechanics working as intended. Kiting(using landscape and bad mob AI) to exploit. Chainspell + Stun= Exploit, but it was later accepted as ok. Ninja tanking isn't an exploit, but it wasn't designed to tank either. Salvage and Nyzul aren't hard and the casuals were doing them during that time. You say it was an exploit, but let's be real, the community used exploits all the damn time.

The people using the Salvage duping "mechanic" kept it all hush hush as long as they could. I think that's a pretty good sign that they knew it was an exploit that would eventually get patched. They might not have ever thought that the punishment was going to be as severe as permanent bans. But they knew they were engaging in risky activity.
#199 Aug 10 2013 at 9:58 PM Rating: Good
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Do you guys think that they will have relic weapons for DoH anf DoL?
#200 Aug 10 2013 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
LebargeX wrote:
This whole casual vs hardcore argument drives me batsauce crazy.


I am a hardcore gamer in a casual gamer's life.

Edited, Aug 11th 2013 12:04am by Gnu
#201 Aug 11 2013 at 5:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gnu wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
This whole casual vs hardcore argument drives me batsauce crazy.


I am a hardcore gamer in a casual gamer's life.

Edited, Aug 11th 2013 12:04am by Gnu



This is exactly the point I was trying to make lol
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