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A Threat Profile question (with bonus story!)Follow

#27 Sep 19 2013 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
All other variable aside, that total HP of the Tank after a heal is what I'm considering. Isn't it safer to be able to both not let the Tank drop as far down in damage and to keep him closer to full? I know this is an overly simplified example, but this is what I'm talking about when I talk about being safer.


No.

You heal as needed, only when it is needed, and when it's called for. There is no solution and purposely nerfing yourself via "avoiding crit" or using Cleric Stance on purpose, or other such nonsense is not an answer.

You heal when you need to. Period.

Secondly, no one has seriously stated to let a tank drop to 10% because that's 3/4 heals your level to catch back up. Look at his health, look at how much you heal for, and do the math.

It isn't that hard, so stop trying to make it so.

Finally, overhealing aggro occurs when you're indiscriminately casting spells, NONSTOP, for a long period of time. If you aren't spamming Medica every GCD or slamming that tank with your highest cure every GCD it isn't an issue.

And if it is, find a better tank.

Pryssant wrote:
In that case, healer will have to avoid + critical hit stats like plague...


/facepalm

Yes, please, go ahead and do that. I'm sure it'll work out wonderfully.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 5:53pm by Viertel
#28 Sep 19 2013 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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Personally, I wouldn't stay in Cleric Stance even as a way to mitigate hate.

What you should pay attention to is the enemy list. By default it's located in the center left of the screen just below the party member list. Next to the name of every monster in the list is a colored shape that represents the amount of hate you have from a mob.

If it's a green circle, you have nothing to fear, so you can cast cure to your heart's content. A yellow up-pointing triangle means you are starting to push it. An orange down-pointing triangle means you're on the verge of grabbing hate. A huge cure at this point might get you in trouble. And a red square means the mob is coming to get you.

You can use this indicator to guide you on how you should pace your cures. Every tank is different so you have to remain adaptable to any situation you find yourself in.
#29 Sep 19 2013 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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If you really want to ***** with the threat table: use Cleric Stance to actually do damage, not to scope max heal numbers. 1 point of damage = 1 point of heal = 1 threat, so like the above poster said: kill the mob if you can without jeopardizing the success of the party. Frankly I find Cleric Stance dancing one of the more fun mechanics of the healing classes. :)
#30 Sep 19 2013 at 3:57 PM Rating: Default
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
Example:

Tanks Total HP is 500. Each hit he takes causes 50 dmg.

Cleric Stance Off:
I heal for 120 HP. I generate 60 Threat per cast and I want to heal keep my Tank closer to full without wasting the heal or generating excess Threat.

Tank takes a total of 150 dmg (total HP of Tank at this moment is 350). I cast heal for 120 HP (total HP of Tank at this moment is 470).

Cleric Stance On:
I heal for 96 HP. I generate 48 Threat per cast. (same as above)

Tank takes a total of 100 dmg (total HP of Tank at this moment is 400). I cast a heal for 96 HP (total HP of Tank at this moment is 498)

All other variable aside, that total HP of the Tank after a heal is what I'm considering. Isn't it safer to be able to both not let the Tank drop as far down in damage and to keep him closer to full? I know this is an overly simplified example, but this is what I'm talking about when I talk about being safer.


Isn't the above an example of the below?

Viertel wrote:
You heal as needed, only when it is needed, and when it's called for. There is no solution and purposely nerfing yourself via "avoiding crit" or using Cleric Stance on purpose, or other such nonsense is not an answer.

You heal when you need to. Period.


Maybe that's where I'm confused, because it seems to me that in the example I used, its exactly what you are stating.

Edit: Save that I am allowing myself the option to cast Cure sooner so the Tank doesn't fall as far down in damage, so that he in turn is able to survive a critical hit when it comes.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 3:00pm by Jjnnyrr
#31 Sep 19 2013 at 4:10 PM Rating: Excellent
Two things:

First, there is almost nothing in the game that is going to do 80% of the tanks health in damage in the time it takes you to cast cure, which is essentially what you're concerned about. If your tank is ever taking that much damage, then your group is going to fail no matter what you do, or it's an attack that is not designed to be survivable.

Second, this is an issue that will resolve itself. Once you get to Brayflox, at the latest, your parties will either wipe because you are not able to keep them up due to the lower level of healing per second with this technique or your parties will wipe because you are out of mana from using the far less mana efficient method of this technique.
#32 Sep 19 2013 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
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Either I failed WHM lessons in FFXI (or not), overhealing almost never acquired aggro on me. This became evident if you helped heal a group that was leveling. If you wanted to tank the mob, you had to heal members who had HP deficits. Healing someone at full may have generated enmity but ever so slight.

Or, if you're in Yuhtunga fighting goblins. One uses a bomb at high HP = lots of damage (if not deaths). WHM uses curaga 2 + divine seal = everything is stuck to him for the rest of the fight.

That said, I think overhealing actually does generate a substantial amount of enmity in this game. Medica 2 spam will guarantee a WHM a tank role whether he wants it or not!

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 8:40pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#33 Sep 19 2013 at 7:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Viertel wrote:


Pryssant wrote:
In that case, healer will have to avoid + critical hit stats like plague...


/facepalm

Yes, please, go ahead and do that. I'm sure it'll work out wonderfully.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 5:53pm by Viertel



Please elaborate, we've been talking about how hate is matched with the number of HP recovered, even if it's an over-heal.

So if you crit you Cure, you're actually producing more hate than a normal hitting cure. And most Crit heal will make you over healing by a lot.

How many healer wait for the tank to be in need of the number of HP a crit cure produce before actually curing?
#34 Sep 19 2013 at 8:09 PM Rating: Default
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imbtrthnur wrote:
Two things:

First, there is almost nothing in the game that is going to do 80% of the tanks health in damage in the time it takes you to cast cure, which is essentially what you're concerned about. If your tank is ever taking that much damage, then your group is going to fail no matter what you do, or it's an attack that is not designed to be survivable.

Second, this is an issue that will resolve itself. Once you get to Brayflox, at the latest, your parties will either wipe because you are not able to keep them up due to the lower level of healing per second with this technique or your parties will wipe because you are out of mana from using the far less mana efficient method of this technique.


I guess I see it like this:

(The illustration below is to represent a Tank's HP bar, the X's being remaining HP and the _ being HP lost to damage)
I am assuming that "healing when needed" would optimally be at the point when the maximum amount of your heal spell would go towards healing and not be wasted by an over-cure. That said...

Why would you leave your Tank's HP here?
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx___________]

When you have the option to keep him here?
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx________]

In Cleric Stance, the second example is when you would be able to cast Cure, which seems more efficient (and safe) for the party as a whole. And when I claim to know this, it is in fact because I switch back and forth between Cleric Stance as needed, depending on the nature of the fight. The examples as shown are literally how it works.

By your argument that nothing is going to do 80% damage as was illustrated in my previous example, wouldn't it then be better to be that much further ahead? What is the harm is maintaining a fuller HP bar on the tank?

And yes, I haven't done anything higher than Halatali, but I doubt my perspective on the matter is any different. The strategies used may change, but I feel certainty in how I view the scenario.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 7:16pm by Jjnnyrr
#35 Sep 19 2013 at 9:11 PM Rating: Excellent
The problem is that you are nerfing your ability to handle emergency situations. Cleric stance has a 5 second CD after you use it. Imagine a situation where you had just turned it on(since you did say you are turning it on and off as needed). The tank walks into an aoe and gets rocked. He is very low health and because you have cleric stance your heals are not enough to pick up the tank high enough before the next wave of hits and dies.

You should never purposely nerf your healing because of situations like that, especially if there is a CD before you can un-nerf yourself.
#36REDACTED, Posted: Sep 19 2013 at 9:26 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Its seems as though this argument would support my suggestion. The concern seems to be a choice between A) working from the bottom of a Tank's HP well (as seems to be advocated by those who disagree with my use of Cleric Stance) and B) working from the top of a Tank's HP well as I view the use of Cleric Stance in healing.
#37 Sep 19 2013 at 10:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
I guess I see it like this:

(The illustration below is to represent a Tank's HP bar, the X's being remaining HP and the _ being HP lost to damage)
I am assuming that "healing when needed" would optimally be at the point when the maximum amount of your heal spell would go towards healing and not be wasted by an over-cure. That said...

Why would you leave your Tank's HP here?
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx___________]

When you have the option to keep him here?
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx________]

Because you're hurting your own MP efficiency by doing that. You're basically cutting your MP pool by 20%. You may not feel it in a lower level dungeon when everything goes perfectly. But then, if everything goes perfectly, you probably don't need to worry about being too high on the hate list from normal Cures. It's when unexpected bad things happen that you may find yourself needing that extra MP.
#38 Sep 19 2013 at 11:35 PM Rating: Default
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svlyons wrote:

Because you're hurting your own MP efficiency by doing that. You're basically cutting your MP pool by 20%. You may not feel it in a lower level dungeon when everything goes perfectly. But then, if everything goes perfectly, you probably don't need to worry about being too high on the hate list from normal Cures. It's when unexpected bad things happen that you may find yourself needing that extra MP.


Returning to my previous example with the HP bars, let's envision a scenario where the Tank takes a big hit and just watch it play out. For the sake of this example, a few basic elements

Regular Strike = deduct X's (x5)
Critical Strike = deduct X's (x14)
Regular Heals = restore X's (x10)
Cleric Stance Heals = restore X's (x8)

Regular Heals-----------------------------------------Cleric Stance

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_____________] (15)----(19) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_________] *Normal Attack Cycle*

[x___________________________] (01)----(05) [xxxxx_______________________] *Critical Hit*

[xxxxxxxxxxx_________________] (11)----(13) [xxxxxxxxxxxxx_______________] *Cure*

[xxxxxx______________________] (06)----(08) [xxxxxxxx____________________] *Regular Strike*

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx____________] (16)----(16) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx____________] *Cure*

[xxxxxxxxxxx_________________] (11)---(11) [xxxxxxxxxxx_________________] *Regular Strike*

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_______] (21)----(19) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_________] *Cure*

And so on and so forth.

I can concede that full heals have an slight advantage in the amount that is healed, but I would direct your attention to second line (which is kind of the essence of my argument). How many hearts in the party just skipped a beat? Is the tank wising he had updated his will at that point? Is his vulnerability to dying from a hit by an Add just a bit too close for comfort?

MP efficiency matters if you're spamming heals, and so far everyone is in agreement that back-to-back heals is probably only happening in a situation as in the above, and more often than not, it should be avoided. If the fight is dragging out long enough that your MP is out (and you're out of Ethers), I daresay your problems are quickly becoming less of staying alive and more of biting off more than your party could chew.

I would suggest that the difference in heals is negligible, but the margin of safety is considerable. By no means do I expect this to sway anyone, but I would offer as something to ponder. In seven (overly simplified) rounds, regular heals brought the tank precipitously closer to death (and a possible party wipe) versus my suggested use of Cleric Stance. And at the cost of only two points (in example above), which seems like a fair trade for a more reliable Tank HP bar.

And I know this doesn't cover everything and there is a vast array of factors that could probably go for or against my suggestion, but I leave that to eveyone else to consider.

edit: hopefully improved my diagram >.>;;

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 10:38pm by Jjnnyrr

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 10:40pm by Jjnnyrr
#39 Sep 20 2013 at 12:20 AM Rating: Decent
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imbtrthnur wrote:
First, there is almost nothing in the game that is going to do 80% of the tanks health in damage in the time it takes you to cast cure, which is essentially what you're concerned about. If your tank is ever taking that much damage, then your group is going to fail no matter what you do, or it's an attack that is not designed to be survivable.


Hydra's Triumvirate. Or when he's got Bravery (you can still survive and win even if he got Bravery).

And maybe a lot of other stuff. Toward the end-game contents you will frequently find your PLD Hp wanting and one reason why WAR tank is not that bad because of their uber Hp pool (I have 6,550 without Thrill of Battle and only AK drops).

Jjnnyrr wrote:
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx___________]

When you have the option to keep him here?
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx________]


MP conservation, extra DPS through Aero (don't dish Aero, we killed Hydra with Aero lulz), keeping other aside from a tank alive etc.

Edited, Sep 20th 2013 2:23am by Khornette
#40 Sep 20 2013 at 1:38 AM Rating: Excellent
Two things:

First, your starting point in "Regular Heals vs Cleric Stance" is already a straw man, because no healer who is paying any attention is going to let their tank sit at that HP level. At that level you've already cast a regular heal and topped off or nearly topped off HP. This actually makes the "Cleric Stance" in your example MORE dangerous because for it to make any difference at all you are going to have to leave your tank at the lower HP mark. This is unnecessary and unwise. The threat generation of a little over-curing of even 10% per heal is not going to be enough to pull hate off of a tank unless your tank is in serious trouble, and in that case you are once again not actually going to be able to do much about it.

Second, your example only shows a handful of cherry picked rounds. The bottom line is that you can't keep that up during an entire fight where the tank and/or DPS are taking any serious damage. If you put that into 100 rounds instead of 7, then you'll be out of mana at round 80 while I can last 20 more rounds.

You are hamstringing yourself for no tangible benefit.

I know this can seem like a working strategy at lower levels, but I tanked a boss as WHM in Copperbell when a DPS attacked it before the tank was ready. I ended the fight with over 50% mana. I don't know if you can run out of mana unless you really tried at that level.

Edited, Sep 20th 2013 3:42am by imbtrthnur
#41 Sep 20 2013 at 7:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Here's the problem, you're trying very very hard to justify a playstyle based on the first, simplest dungeon out there, and a lot of incorrect assumptions. If you really need to think this hard and are fighting this hard to justify this position about healing this dungeon, and I'm not trying to be mean, maybe you should consider a non-healing class for the rest of the game until you feel more comfortable with the mechanics of this game.

The simple fact is, if you let your tank get to 400/500 health.. the world doesn't end! You don't have to heal them the second you're able, and maybe THAT is why you're concerned with threat. Let the tank do his job, get initial aggo, then heal. Your heals do half enmity, his damage to multiple times the enmity, stop over thinking it.
#42 Sep 20 2013 at 8:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Khornette wrote:
imbtrthnur wrote:
First, there is almost nothing in the game that is going to do 80% of the tanks health in damage in the time it takes you to cast cure, which is essentially what you're concerned about. If your tank is ever taking that much damage, then your group is going to fail no matter what you do, or it's an attack that is not designed to be survivable.


Hydra's Triumvirate. Or when he's got Bravery (you can still survive and win even if he got Bravery).

And maybe a lot of other stuff. Toward the end-game contents you will frequently find your PLD Hp wanting and one reason why WAR tank is not that bad because of their uber Hp pool (I have 6,550 without Thrill of Battle and only AK drops).


Health pool means absolutely nothing against mitigation, however, which always triumphs. Part of me wants to assume you guys were just lazy with not using a soaker for Hydra, but then another part *knows* it's damn good practice for healers for Titan HM when they need to do even more healing than that.

Besides that, you're right as there are more than a few abilities that you can't avoid that hit hard usually and *incredibly* hard the worst case scenario -- you get crit. It's only happened *once* but when I was crit by Titan for 5,250 on rage table I slammed invincible as fast as I could. Awareness was already down otherwise it wouldn't have been an issue, but 5,250 of a 5,780 health is dangerous as sh*t.

It's a false blanket statement to state nothing can do almost 90% of a tank's health (not directed at you obviously). The abilities are *there* and they have potential but with mitigation and the already low chance for bosses to crit it doesn't become an issue most of the time. There are clencher moments though and it's really what makes endgame dynamics fun and worth it. As long as it doesn't become like WoW's mid-WotLK shift where everything needs to do that every swing on a tank or FFXI's do ALL the damage in all AoE all the time we're good.

Khornette wrote:
Jjnnyrr wrote:
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx___________]

When you have the option to keep him here?
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx________]


MP conservation, extra DPS through Aero (don't dish Aero, we killed Hydra with Aero lulz), keeping other aside from a tank alive etc.

Edited, Sep 20th 2013 2:23am by Khornette


Yeah, healer DPS when not needing to heal is always really good. It may not be the greatest amount of damage but people don't realize that the raw magic damage healers have in cleric stance is incredibly good for Aero.

Leveling's where you can see a much faster clear if you plan ahead. Open the fight with CStance + Thunder and Aero on the first monster. Switch out and toss a cure (which should easily top off a medium/light geared tank). CStance + Thunder & Aero again on second, then switch out and toss a heal. Repeat for all adds. It adds *tremendous* killing power over the length of the instance simply due to stat swapping and that % modifier that goes along with it. Eventually I think you may lose Thunder out when going WHM (can't remember or not as I barely get time away from tanking Gawuda and Titan), but even just Aero itself is a good usage and habit to get into.

The faster that sh*t dies, the less time you have to worry about overhealing or a tank dying or some such nonsense.

Edited, Sep 20th 2013 10:14am by Viertel
#43 Sep 20 2013 at 8:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
[quote=svlyons]
Regular Strike = deduct X's (x5)
Critical Strike = deduct X's (x14)
Regular Heals = restore X's (x10)
Cleric Stance Heals = restore X's (x8)

Regular Heals-----------------------------------------Cleric Stance

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_____________] (15)----(19) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_________] *Normal Attack Cycle*

[x___________________________] (01)----(05) [xxxxx_______________________] *Critical Hit*

[xxxxxxxxxxx_________________] (11)----(13) [xxxxxxxxxxxxx_______________] *Cure*

[xxxxxx______________________] (06)----(08) [xxxxxxxx____________________] *Regular Strike*

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx____________] (16)----(16) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx____________] *Cure*

[xxxxxxxxxxx_________________] (11)---(11) [xxxxxxxxxxx_________________] *Regular Strike*

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_______] (21)----(19) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_________] *Cure*




You have one big, flaw, and that is assuming you would cast at the same time for both. In real life it would be more like this:
Regular Heals-----------------------------------------Cleric Stance
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_____________] (15)----(15) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_____________] *Normal Attack Cycle*
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXX________] (20)----(18) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXX__________] *Cure*
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXX___] (25)----(21) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXX_______] *Normal Attack Cycle + Cure*
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx________] (20)----(18) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXX_________] *NAC + CS Cure*
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXX___] (25)----(22) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXX_______] * + Cure*
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx________] (20)----(20) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXX________] *NAC + CS cure*


Do you see the pattern? I see 3 x 5 heart heals, and 5x3 heart heals. overal, threat is about even, but CS cleric is spaming heals on one tank and has no room to heal others, is using 40% more mp, and is keeping the tank at a lower average hp.
#44 Sep 20 2013 at 8:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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You don't even really need to go that far Dustin. Just look at what he's posting for a heal in Cleric stance.

80%.

This is a fallacy. You do *NOT* do 80% of your heal in cleric stance. You're closer to actually 50% due to the fact that your MND and INT shift and your INT, even at level 15 (and MUCH more so later on) is quickly outpaced by your MND. More than likely you're 20~ points behind in the INT department and THEN apply that debuff.

In Halati with a green level 20 staff (at level 21) my Cure does around 220-230. If I don't actually exit CStance (latency issue, hitting too soon after casting, etc.) then my heals actually do closer to 110-120. That's a major reduction.

Bottom line is this: either learn how to time your heals better outside of cleric stance or, as someone else above stated, you need to play a different class.

And to the poster stating you should shy away from crit due to overhealing aggro all I have to say is this:

El. Oh. El.

Edited, Sep 20th 2013 10:32am by Viertel
#45 Sep 20 2013 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
And to the poster stating you should shy away from crit due to overhealing aggro all I have to say is this:

El. Oh. El.




Pretty much this. Scholars scale with crit so much more than th ey do with anything else because when you get a crit heal with adloquiem, the shield gets doubled off the crit heal. For example:

Normal heal 100 Shield 100

Crit heal 150 Shield 300

I'm not too sure about WHMs but for scholars, crit is their bread and butter.
#46 Sep 20 2013 at 12:43 PM Rating: Decent
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xPriestessx wrote:
I'm not too sure about WHMs but for scholars, crit is their bread and butter.


WHM benefits more from Determination, but crit definitely helps the mana stretch further.
#47 Sep 20 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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I know that as blm when I spike critical at 1800-2000 over a three second period and take hate away from a tank fighting the Durandal's in Amdapoor Keep they usually go "o.0" and congratulate me Smiley: grin
#48 Sep 20 2013 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fire crit + instant Fire III crit is a sexy sexy thing.
#49 Sep 20 2013 at 1:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anakte wrote:
Fire crit + instant Fire III crit is a sexy sexy thing.


Especially when you Fire I for 450, get firestarter, then start into another Fire I with Astral Fire III active, and at the same time you are casting Fire I, spam the firestarter Fire III button to unleash a 600 Fire I immediately followed by a 1100 free instacast Fire III. Those are my favorite, 2000+ in 3 seconds
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