Current endgame getting nerfed in 2.1Follow

I agree, but the WoW style end game and progression was not exactly a secret. They talked about doing it before launch.

One of those reasons a lot of us say that FF14 is a very well executed game which nonetheless offers the MMO norm with a final fantasy flavor to it, and not a revolutionary or innovative game.

Edited, Sep 26th 2013 10:04am by KarlHungis

I dont get it. Why is there so much animosity about making content more accessible (while retaining a hard mode of the same content)?

I love CoP as an example here. It clearly illustrates what happens when a developer makes content that is prohibitively difficult to a large base of their fans. CoP went unfinished for a great many people. Many players had just written it off and moved on to other content they could do. The more difficult the content, the less players went through it. This was a STORY expansion. It wasn't a hardmode addon. It wasn't some optional dungeon that sold itself as content meant to kick your ***.

Now, did CoP make better players of those who beat it before the nerf? Maybe. But the pack was called "Chains of Promathia", not "boss fight training for scrubs". This kind of content should have been the cleared by players who were already trained and challenge them a bit more. As it was it was level capped to 30 (supposedly to make it accessible) to start with and just railed most players- especially if they had just reached that level and hadn't been playing long! It basically started balls-to-the-wall hard and that turned off most players.

I could go on about the problems I have with FFXI's general game design but thats for another thread. What I will say is that all those problems were definately present in CoP and only multiplied the frustration of that content.

So while I don't have a problem with difficult content- I actually enjoy a challenge- it's bullsh*t when story content is made to such a high difficulty that it actively excludes a larger chunk of the playerbase. When content suddenly kicks you in the crotch it smacks of the dev vs player mentality that brought about gems like the 18hr Pandemonium Warden boss fight or Absolute Virtue, which anyone sane would agree were stupid concepts that had no place in an MMO. At a certain point that badge of honor for beating that hard content becomes a ****-sock award for being dumb enough to put that much time into completing a single objective in a video game.

I say go ahead and let more players explore the content, but keep the hard modes and reward the players for challenging them. They will never please everyone, but they can strive to please most of everyone, and that might be what they're going for here.

Edited, Sep 26th 2013 4:52pm by reptiletim

Too much elitism is already brewing in the current content, a nerf was to be expected given the intended scope of the game.

My priorities in life and with my community puts progression on the back-burner more frequently than not, so I likely won't get to sample the difficulty before the nerfs come. However, I'll not grudge that given the fact that a lot of first-time experiences will challenge you regardless of how difficult you view it in hindsight.

And anyone who has known me in this community knows how much I despise gated story content. I also deeply despise player divides based off of differing playstyles. It feeds into this sense of entitlement on both sides of the spectrum that just grates my teeth.

I'm in mind of toggle-able difficulty levels for higher drop-rates/currency drops, but not really in support of content that can only be completed by the highest echelon of player, more like a version of said content designed specifically to challenge them.

I feel like there are a few aspects to this that could be looked over.

The first is that there exists a subset of MMO players who absolutely loathe the fact that a given piece of content loses worth. This can happen with cap increases, higher "raid tiers", new craft recipes, or even basic quests. Sometimes they try to mask this desire under the guise of variety in content, but it still suffers from the risk of monotony if, say, XIV had a random queue and you keep rolling Copperbell Mines every single time. This can also get irksome if you find a random and rare drop only has one source. Friend of mine did Wanderer's Palace 30+ times for his Darklight Shield, for example. This wouldn't have changed even if we had 2-3 other level 50 dungeons if nothing else dropped it. In fact, it might've become harder for him to get with people being split into other dungeon pools.

Anyway, how content is kept up to date can vary. Hard Modes is one version, and Rift tried this with their leveling dungeons having Expert modes at a given level cap. Some variances took place here like additional bosses, old bosses having new moves, and changes in trash placement. Artistically, this is a lot easier on dev resources because you're not building totally new areas and having to test them implicitly for other "new zone" problems like falling through terrain or glitch exploits. Realistically, it is lazy and very rarely makes plot sense. XIV tries to buck this trend a bit with the primals and claiming they vary in strength based on crystals the beastmen had accumulated, but I will very much agree it'll get old if we're fighting Garuda Insane when a new cap rolls around. Though, maybe I'm lying a bit, as I would not be against an eventual primal battle royale akin to the Ark Angel fight in XI.

Another aspect is perhaps revamping even the default mode. Dynamis in FFXI stands out here as SE basically chopped these zones in half, maintaining a level 75 version and then a level 90+ version with some added drops to hopefully encourage people to do things. My utter loathing of XI's relic system aside, this method is problematic because one way or another, the level cap will rise again. Do you then split the zone into thirds? Fourths? When does it end? This isn't to say I'm against zones being revised, but I look to it more being toward their original intent. Like in XIV's case, this could mean bosses dropping more tomes, trash actually dropping things, and treasure coffers putting out more loot outright.

To these people, I personally urge them to content go and accept that they have lifespans. Forcing people to do things just because you'd want them to has a bad habit of leading to resentment toward that content for one reason or another. Even without the developer enforced lifespan, player interest is also a factor. MMOs can be notorious about playing catch-up, which is one of those times where "nerfs" are justified because 8-man content of today may have a hell of time actually finding 8 men in the future. So maybe you could do it with 4-5 if you're decent. Not the end of the world even if some demand the same ball-busting aspect of old... of which I'd argue there are ways to achieve that without depriving people from content. They're just never fond of handicapping themselves even though numbers are numbers and you get 2 from 5-3 or 3-1.

And if they're of the mind that a game should actually focus on exclusionary content, then I have no qualms in telling them to outright frick off because there's no justification in 99% of funds generated by their fellow players making that 1% a focus. It's also because we are shoveling money at the devs hand over fist that content needs to come often and for everyone. Otherwise, why are we paying them? I know I'm sick of MMOs that only seem to care about raiders and their twisted sense of progression, but as long as these players are growing up and becoming the future devs of games desperately trying to perpetuate those good ol' days, we'll still have this rift between casuals and hardcores that's literally supported by game mechanics.

iLvl check will fix both of those I think. Even if you pay someone to beat Titan for you, you won't be able to enter the fight without a minimum amount of gear.

Through solo DF, certainly. I went up against Titan before people really knew better with a group that farmed Ifrit weapons first in generally AF with a spot of DL here and there, and after half a dozen pulls and a stupidly long fight, finally killed him. BLM is OP on that fight. But Titan is more about dodging well and staying alive than raw DPS, so an iLevel check might not help at all. The best gear won't stop you from getting kicked off the side, and even if it does save you from plumes, it'll kill healer mana later on and wipe the group from mana starvation. Perhaps an iLevel check on healers alone would be most appropriate.

I actually can't think of a raw DPS check up to Titan hard. Even Demon Wall can go to a 5th repel or more before you'll be screwed, and that length of time DPS isn't a large hurdle. It's more important to properly game the mechanics than put out eye-bleeding numbers. I do have a theory that LFR changed the raiding mindset to focus more on plowing through bosses before mechanics get complicated rather than properly gaming mechanics like everyone did in the good old days, and I'm really starting to think that's why the shift is going more to gear, regardless of skill.

And I know, I used to progression raid too. Good DPS makes fights easier, shortens phases, blasts down obstacles, etc., but an iLevel check shouldn't be put in to ensure a certain level of ease on a fight. It should only be implemented if the fight would be otherwise impossible if not for a certain level of gear.

I'm curious to know whether the iLvl requirement applies to pre-made parties. If not, you'll still see people selling/purchasing wins.

So much better said than what I was trying to say.

If a developer makes content challenging and hard, but not impossible, then it needs to stay that way. Accessible content should mean just that, I have access to it. It shouldn't mean beatable content for everyone. Maybe I'm just different. To me if you nerf the hard content their is no feeling of accomplishment if/when I beat it. It's like watching the fight on youtube, but without the repair bill.

I'm not sure this is the case.

Here's what is happening:

People farm Castrum for DL gear normally, right? Well, what if you really want to just get Titan out of the way and get your relic weapon? You can run Castrum but forgo the DL gear in favor of materials. These crafting materials sell for quite a bit on the market, currently, as many FCs that are progressing require these items to make the rings and accessories (plus Vanya stuff) that is actually on par or better than some of the Allagan or AF2 stuff.

I think I see Titan runs being sold for 200k g on Migard at the moment. That would be the equivalent of 4 Castrum runs.

See but this is a huge issue in itself. You SHOULD be going for DL gear with the tomes you've obtained from Castrum and not selling them off instead. Sure, you can always go back and get the DL gear after you were carried through Titan but then you really don't have the experience from Titan to function well in coils.

I can think of a number of ways to fix this issue but they all come with side effects. Ex.) Make Titan more difficult so that there is no room to carry two people through it. This isn't feasible and would just **** off the playerbase.

You could perhaps require people to do the DF HM Titan x number of times before being able to enter it with a premade group but then you probably won't learn anything from the DF HM Titan settings.

Really, I don't know how you'd prevent another player from 'purchasing' a Titan run.