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Current endgame getting nerfed in 2.1Follow

#27 Sep 25 2013 at 10:00 AM Rating: Decent
I still say to this day the hardest thing about original CoP was finding 5 other people with proper jobs and as much free time as you had. Stuff like 5-3 (I think), The Three Paths could take hours even when done properly. Only fight we re-did a couple times was the airship fight. Anyone with a static got through that expansion.
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#28 Sep 25 2013 at 10:29 AM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Geez this is early to nerf things, especially given how downright easy everything already is to achieve... was a month too long for a casual player to approach endgame or something? So is this going to be one of those games where they have 2-3 things to do at cap, then they add ~1-2 more, nerf the old ones into obsolescence, and just keep on like that for as long as one can stand to scale the end-game ladder?

I was hoping there would be long-standing events, creative builds, and side-grades, but it looks like XIV is going to be using the whole "get the best gear so that in three months you can throw it away for the new best gear" ad infinitum. Can't say I'm very excited about that...


I believe your definition of easy, and the rest of the worlds is DRAMATICALLY different.

While nothing in this game is impossible, but, just going through the list of things that can (and do on a regular basis) suffer from repeated failure:
Chimera
Garuda
Titan
The Coil
AK (yes, people die against the wall, and the biggest failure ).

As for nerfing, they already said when they were preparing for the launch that with each expansion, they would make it easier for people to make it through the older material.

Considering, even today (only one month after the launch) I have problems finding people who are even willing to run CM to help people get through for the first time, I can't even imagine what it will be like to get through any of the above mentioned things that do result in quite a few wipes as you learn the mechanics.

So, while I too do not agree with them doing it, it doesn't change the fact that the community really forces their hands in the matter. The idea is to get as many people to play on a level with other people. This of course (as has been said in this thread already) is met with people then feeling more of a rush to outdistance themselves from those who can catch up.

Rinse and repeat.

And that I would say is the new conflict for the developers. They want everyone to have a chance, but the community wants to be the best. As a result, you will have people who feel that others are getting a hand out by not needing to beg people "Better than them" to help.
#29 Sep 25 2013 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Always a shame to see this. This makes it harder to bridge the gap between so called elitists and casuals, new and old players. It only removes the shared adversity and in its place leaves those "Who did it properly pre-nerf" and the rest of them. This is an MMORPG and part of this is about forming bonds with people, and you do that by shared experiences. Those don't have to be direct contact shared experiences either they can be commiserating with people about those Titan losses because it was a bit of a challenge for some. When you make older content easier, it just becomes the old guy talking about how much harder it used to be to someone who doesn't care and doesn't understand and probably isn't really qualified by way of actual in game experience to deal with the latest "hard" content because they've previously been given a pass on everything by SE.

Sad.
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#30 Sep 25 2013 at 10:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
I still say to this day the hardest thing about original CoP was finding 5 other people with proper jobs and as much free time as you had. Stuff like 5-3 (I think), The Three Paths could take hours even when done properly. Only fight we re-did a couple times was the airship fight. Anyone with a static got through that expansion.


Yeah, but that's why it was hard. Not necessarily because the fights were hard, but because the story took so long that holding together a static was in itself a big challenge.

I picked up the core of my static by the Ouryu fight. We met once a week for fights, and everyone else was responsible for getting cut scenes and running around done on their own. Erecia was writing his famous CoP guide by then so we were not pioneers by any stretch, but it was just a long level-capped slog. I leveled up BLM specifically for the airship 6-4 fight and for a while there I was known as a good luck charm, getting people who'd been stuck on that fight for months past it.

Took us about three months of picking through it. Took my WotG static about three months as well, but that was with a month long break in between and doing all three nation routes.

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#31 Sep 25 2013 at 11:03 AM Rating: Default
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
I still say to this day the hardest thing about original CoP was finding 5 other people with proper jobs and as much free time as you had. Stuff like 5-3 (I think), The Three Paths could take hours even when done properly. Only fight we re-did a couple times was the airship fight. Anyone with a static got through that expansion.


This is only part of the problem with CoP. The fights I did pre-nerf were much harder. If you didn't have the pop items farmed to weaken the boss, it was **** hard. The level caps were another problem as you needed the proper gear to do each cap phase. Plus the zones like Riverne A/B were a death trap for most people. The length of the missions wasn't the number one issue. It was always the challenge of the bosses. The 6-4 airship fight, the bomb zerg, mammots, Ouryu, etc. I don't think it took that much time to get up to speed, but I will say that having some of the pop items unfarmable except in the level cap zones wasn't a smart idea. Regardless, CoP unnerfed made me a better player. I feel that any nerfs to FFXIV will only allow weak links to pass. Every time I hear someone in my party say "How did you reach 50 and not this basic mechanic", I'll know SE helped them along with this nerf.
#32 Sep 25 2013 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
The fights I did pre-nerf were much harder. If you didn't have the pop items farmed to weaken the boss, it was **** hard.
Smiley: dubious The items to weaken the bosses were part of the nerfing, though.
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#33 Sep 25 2013 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Catwho wrote:
I cleared CoP long before the nerf in FFXI. Sad to say that the only people who care are also other people who cleared CoP before the nerf and knew what a big deal it is.
Well, the first nerf was definitely needed. The mob placement and strength in the Promyvion areas was just ridiculous, to the point you had to have an alliance to make it to the boss fight, at which point it became a six person affair. The rest is arguable, though I'd say it was not design flaw.


I disagree. Sure it was difficult to climb, but it didnt need an alliance to get up there. It took some patience and knowlege of agro to get up here easily. I helped a lot of groups through and after those 3 promyvions, those players became better for it.

If content is too easy, you will learn less because you now lowered the minimum requirments to get through. Sure you still learn, and nerfs are sometimes neccessary, but sometimes hard content is also neccessary.

The snoll fight though was rediculous. It required certain jobs, and left other jobs out which should never be the case for any content.
#34 Sep 25 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
The items to weaken the bosses were part of the nerfing, though.


There were various degrees to the nerfing. The real nerf is when they changed the mob mechanics and got rid of the level caps.
#35 Sep 25 2013 at 11:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Keysofgaruda wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Catwho wrote:
I cleared CoP long before the nerf in FFXI. Sad to say that the only people who care are also other people who cleared CoP before the nerf and knew what a big deal it is.
Well, the first nerf was definitely needed. The mob placement and strength in the Promyvion areas was just ridiculous, to the point you had to have an alliance to make it to the boss fight, at which point it became a six person affair. The rest is arguable, though I'd say it was not design flaw.


I disagree. Sure it was difficult to climb, but it didnt need an alliance to get up there. It took some patience and knowlege of agro to get up here easily. I helped a lot of groups through and after those 3 promyvions, those players became better for it.

If content is too easy, you will learn less because you now lowered the minimum requirments to get through. Sure you still learn, and nerfs are sometimes neccessary, but sometimes hard content is also neccessary.

The snoll fight though was rediculous. It required certain jobs, and left other jobs out which should never be the case for any content.


I was in the group of XBOX users who still had to run it hard mode (because I was blue mage and needed my sea spells) but the only people to join you were other xbox players (because everyone else gave you a resounding "NO" when you asked)
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#36 Sep 25 2013 at 11:17 AM Rating: Decent
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difficulty in ffxiv is definitely there, i dont understand why they want to make it easier

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#37 Sep 25 2013 at 11:26 AM Rating: Default
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I do find the hard vs not hard thing to be a rather interesting discussion, considering I already know people who are buying their way through Titan fights.

Should we look down on people who exploit the game so that they can get through AK in <20 minutes? I mean, in that case pretty much everyone with more than one piece of relic right now already did easy mode through stuff. They are already no better than the people who will get the easy mode of that dungeon when it gets nerfed...

What about people who froze titan for an easy win (yes, I know SE said they were going to roll back those accounts).

This isn't about them making the game easier. It's about people feeling it is taking away their elitism. And not to sound too crass (which I am sure it's too late), you can always just go and ask your mom to remind you how special you really are.
#38 Sep 25 2013 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Keysofgaruda wrote:
I helped a lot of groups through and after those 3 promyvions, those players became better for it.
Not sure about that. It was like two~three months (something like September release, November/December version update) after release that Square changed monster's placement, movement patterns and their level. Prior to that I have my doubts on your claim, but seeing as how neither of us can prove or disprove the claims I hope we can just leave it at that.
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
There were various degrees to the nerfing.
And the only degree to the nerfing that would be "pre-nerf" would be, factually, before any of the nerfs.

Edited, Sep 25th 2013 1:46pm by lolgaxe
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#39 Sep 25 2013 at 11:53 AM Rating: Default
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IMFW wrote:
I hope they dont make the stuff to easy, i wanna try all the HM primals, but i level as fast as old people bone, i probly wont even be level 50 before 2.1


You and me both... I've been busy crafting my **** off.. I won't be 50 anytime soon most likely.
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#40 Sep 25 2013 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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I dont see why people care so much. The hardcore have already done it. The casuals dont want to take 3 years to do ti.
#41 Sep 25 2013 at 12:23 PM Rating: Default
All this being said, I hope they don't nerf any of the content. I'm perfectly happy slowly trudging through the content right now, I'll eventually get there and hope it's untouched. You can't water something down because someone like myself has less time on their hands then someone else. I was never bothered in XI when others had relics and sky gear and whatever else. I eventually got there, and it was just as satisfactory to obtain it 1-2 years later.

Endgame to me is like the crazy bosses from previous FF games, Ruby Weapon, Emerald Weapon, Tiamat, etc. It's optional, you can dedicate time to it if you wish to get amazing gear to mow things down at a greater pace, OR you can just do the main chunk of the game and still have a good time.
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#42 Sep 25 2013 at 12:24 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
And the only degree to the nerfing that would be "pre-nerf" would be, factually, before any of the nerfs.


That's true, but as someone who's done the fights during all the phases, I have to say the real tangible nerfs didn't happen until the Snoll nerf and later the level cap nerfs. That's when the majority of the players got SEA access. Back when I beat CoP, only about 5% of my endgame LS had CoP completed with ring in hand. Speaking of CoP. the earring fight was another stumbling block for a lot of people.
#43 Sep 25 2013 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
I dont see why people care so much. The hardcore have already done it. The casuals dont want to take 3 years to do ti.


Not that simple
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#44 Sep 25 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
I dont see why people care so much. The hardcore have already done it. The casuals dont want to take 3 years to do ti.


Not that simple

Actually yes. Make money off the casuals, or close the game down making money off of the only hardcore. Or, give hardcore their lolipops, then let the casuals have their time.
#45 Sep 25 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Default
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garethrogue wrote:
There's nothing more I dislike than to be handed an easy victory. I'd much rather earn it. That goes for that dang "Echo" buff we get if we fail a solo duty as well. It's far more gratifying to strategize and pull it off myself. I'll be stepping it up a bit to get through Titan before this nerf.

Edited, Sep 25th 2013 9:08am by garethrogue



Hmm I think some of them were setup for you to fail on the first try anyway.
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#46 Sep 25 2013 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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Think I'll wait to see just how much things are "nerfed" before lamenting the sky is falling or that people I'll never play with might actually be getting things done at their own pace.
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#47 Sep 25 2013 at 5:36 PM Rating: Decent
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IMFW wrote:
I hope they dont make the stuff to easy, i wanna try all the HM primals, but i level as fast as old people bone, i probly wont even be level 50 before 2.1


Ifrit and Garuda are fun.

Titan is *********
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#48 Sep 25 2013 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I can see Titan HM getting nerfed. Nobody bother to farm Titan HM, because once you clear it you get Relic so why bother. If you already clear it might as well go for Coil, whole lot better loot. The fight is also unforgiving, one person messed up whole party wipe.
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#49 Sep 25 2013 at 6:31 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
I helped a lot of groups through and after those 3 promyvions, those players became better for it.
Not sure about that. It was like two~three months (something like September release, November/December version update) after release that Square changed monster's placement, movement patterns and their level. Prior to that I have my doubts on your claim, but seeing as how neither of us can prove or disprove the claims I hope we can just leave it at that.
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
There were various degrees to the nerfing.
And the only degree to the nerfing that would be "pre-nerf" would be, factually, before any of the nerfs.

Edited, Sep 25th 2013 1:46pm by lolgaxe


Actually, i wasnt aware it had been nerfed right after it was released. I started playing during the CoP patch when they released the airship battle (6-4) so i was unaware it was even more difficult than it was. Even nerfed it was still challening for a group to get up there but not alliance worthy so i appologize. I actually thouht the nerf you guys were talking about was the one where it went from the 1st nerf, to the one where it was extremely easy to climb.
#50 Sep 25 2013 at 10:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I more concerned that it sounds like the only end game content being added is a "new" difficulty mode. So we can run the same things over in an even harder mode? Woopity doo...
#51 Sep 26 2013 at 6:28 AM Rating: Default
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I thought I had read somewhere a while ago that with 2.1, they're releasing Extreme and Impossible modes, or something to that effect? Another two higher difficulty modes for those who want the real challenge. I would imagine the nerf is to help increase the pool of available players to attempt those modes. The way groups are advertising right now just for Garuda (Full DL + Relic? I just don't get what they're farming at that point), it's probably a necessary change.

It all depends on how much of a nerf we're talking about too. Taking down 5% of Titan's life and making his Tumult's stack slightly slower isn't going to suddenly make the encounter trivial. Make the end a bit more forgiving, but still not easy.
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