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Current endgame getting nerfed in 2.1Follow

#52 Sep 26 2013 at 7:33 AM Rating: Decent
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You guys do understand that last week, there were like tons of threads complaining about the animosity amongst high level players who were demanding overpowered gear just to even run some of these instances. The amount of tanks and healers who were dropping party because ofBold Text50 DKP MINUS!! party mechanics?

Don't misunderstand. I hope they don't completely rip the balls off this content. Upper level runs should feel satisfying.. ESPECIALLY since the game isn't even six months old, yet. However, leaving it the way it is doesn't seem like a reasonable thing to do when end-game content already sounds fairly cut-throat to your average casual gamer.
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#53 Sep 26 2013 at 7:57 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Geez this is early to nerf things, especially given how downright easy everything already is to achieve... was a month too long for a casual player to approach endgame or something? So is this going to be one of those games where they have 2-3 things to do at cap, then they add ~1-2 more, nerf the old ones into obsolescence, and just keep on like that for as long as one can stand to scale the end-game ladder?

I was hoping there would be long-standing events, creative builds, and side-grades, but it looks like XIV is going to be using the whole "get the best gear so that in three months you can throw it away for the new best gear" ad infinitum. Can't say I'm very excited about that...


I agree, but the WoW style end game and progression was not exactly a secret. They talked about doing it before launch.

One of those reasons a lot of us say that FF14 is a very well executed game which nonetheless offers the MMO norm with a final fantasy flavor to it, and not a revolutionary or innovative game.

Edited, Sep 26th 2013 10:04am by KarlHungis
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#54 Sep 26 2013 at 1:59 PM Rating: Default
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Am I out of touch with what people want in an MMO anymore? Not just FFXIV, but all the newer MMOs. Are people satisfied with getting a new mode for the same content? Wouldn't you rather have new content and leave HM as challenging as it is?

So, from reading this thread and threads like this on other game sites it seems people are fine with a story mode, then a bit more difficult HM and then a hard Extreme mode. Why? It's the same content. All they're doing is nerfing Hardmode so causal can say they did something Hard, and making an Extreme for the achievers. Don't we have that now with Story and HM? Wouldn't you rather have the new "dungeon of the Apocalypse" that is challenging and leave everything else as it is? ****, I'm a casual and would rather leave Hard mode, well Hard. It gives me something to shoot for. i don't want it nerfed so it's then all but gift wrapped for me.

Obviously I don't get it.
#55 Sep 26 2013 at 2:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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I dont get it. Why is there so much animosity about making content more accessible (while retaining a hard mode of the same content)?

I love CoP as an example here. It clearly illustrates what happens when a developer makes content that is prohibitively difficult to a large base of their fans. CoP went unfinished for a great many people. Many players had just written it off and moved on to other content they could do. The more difficult the content, the less players went through it. This was a STORY expansion. It wasn't a hardmode addon. It wasn't some optional dungeon that sold itself as content meant to kick your ***.

Now, did CoP make better players of those who beat it before the nerf? Maybe. But the pack was called "Chains of Promathia", not "boss fight training for scrubs". This kind of content should have been the cleared by players who were already trained and challenge them a bit more. As it was it was level capped to 30 (supposedly to make it accessible) to start with and just railed most players- especially if they had just reached that level and hadn't been playing long! It basically started balls-to-the-wall hard and that turned off most players.

I could go on about the problems I have with FFXI's general game design but thats for another thread. What I will say is that all those problems were definately present in CoP and only multiplied the frustration of that content.

So while I don't have a problem with difficult content- I actually enjoy a challenge- it's bullsh*t when story content is made to such a high difficulty that it actively excludes a larger chunk of the playerbase. When content suddenly kicks you in the crotch it smacks of the dev vs player mentality that brought about gems like the 18hr Pandemonium Warden boss fight or Absolute Virtue, which anyone sane would agree were stupid concepts that had no place in an MMO. At a certain point that badge of honor for beating that hard content becomes a ****-sock award for being dumb enough to put that much time into completing a single objective in a video game.

I say go ahead and let more players explore the content, but keep the hard modes and reward the players for challenging them. They will never please everyone, but they can strive to please most of everyone, and that might be what they're going for here.

Edited, Sep 26th 2013 4:52pm by reptiletim
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#56 Sep 26 2013 at 4:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Ew, I just got the game and talking about nerfs a month in? I am by no means hardcore and never beat COP in FFXI, but goals like this make the MMO experience much more rewarding. I enjoyed how FFXI had story content locked behind hard content. It makes the cut scenes much more rewarding to watch and have a much more heroic feeling. Being called the hero of such and such in the story has no meaning if I got there by facerolling the boss.
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#57 Sep 26 2013 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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Too much elitism is already brewing in the current content, a nerf was to be expected given the intended scope of the game.

My priorities in life and with my community puts progression on the back-burner more frequently than not, so I likely won't get to sample the difficulty before the nerfs come. However, I'll not grudge that given the fact that a lot of first-time experiences will challenge you regardless of how difficult you view it in hindsight.

And anyone who has known me in this community knows how much I despise gated story content. I also deeply despise player divides based off of differing playstyles. It feeds into this sense of entitlement on both sides of the spectrum that just grates my teeth.

I'm in mind of toggle-able difficulty levels for higher drop-rates/currency drops, but not really in support of content that can only be completed by the highest echelon of player, more like a version of said content designed specifically to challenge them.
#58 Sep 27 2013 at 1:58 AM Rating: Default
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That'd be upsetting if they nerf sh*t already. If its 6, 7 months down the road its understandable but there's still plenty of people doing content there is no reason to nerf it.
#59 Sep 27 2013 at 3:35 AM Rating: Good
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OldKnees wrote:
Am I out of touch with what people want in an MMO anymore? Not just FFXIV, but all the newer MMOs. Are people satisfied with getting a new mode for the same content? Wouldn't you rather have new content and leave HM as challenging as it is?

So, from reading this thread and threads like this on other game sites it seems people are fine with a story mode, then a bit more difficult HM and then a hard Extreme mode. Why? It's the same content. All they're doing is nerfing Hardmode so causal can say they did something Hard, and making an Extreme for the achievers. Don't we have that now with Story and HM? Wouldn't you rather have the new "dungeon of the Apocalypse" that is challenging and leave everything else as it is? ****, I'm a casual and would rather leave Hard mode, well Hard. It gives me something to shoot for. i don't want it nerfed so it's then all but gift wrapped for me.

Obviously I don't get it.

I feel like there are a few aspects to this that could be looked over.

The first is that there exists a subset of MMO players who absolutely loathe the fact that a given piece of content loses worth. This can happen with cap increases, higher "raid tiers", new craft recipes, or even basic quests. Sometimes they try to mask this desire under the guise of variety in content, but it still suffers from the risk of monotony if, say, XIV had a random queue and you keep rolling Copperbell Mines every single time. This can also get irksome if you find a random and rare drop only has one source. Friend of mine did Wanderer's Palace 30+ times for his Darklight Shield, for example. This wouldn't have changed even if we had 2-3 other level 50 dungeons if nothing else dropped it. In fact, it might've become harder for him to get with people being split into other dungeon pools.

Anyway, how content is kept up to date can vary. Hard Modes is one version, and Rift tried this with their leveling dungeons having Expert modes at a given level cap. Some variances took place here like additional bosses, old bosses having new moves, and changes in trash placement. Artistically, this is a lot easier on dev resources because you're not building totally new areas and having to test them implicitly for other "new zone" problems like falling through terrain or glitch exploits. Realistically, it is lazy and very rarely makes plot sense. XIV tries to buck this trend a bit with the primals and claiming they vary in strength based on crystals the beastmen had accumulated, but I will very much agree it'll get old if we're fighting Garuda Insane when a new cap rolls around. Though, maybe I'm lying a bit, as I would not be against an eventual primal battle royale akin to the Ark Angel fight in XI.

Another aspect is perhaps revamping even the default mode. Dynamis in FFXI stands out here as SE basically chopped these zones in half, maintaining a level 75 version and then a level 90+ version with some added drops to hopefully encourage people to do things. My utter loathing of XI's relic system aside, this method is problematic because one way or another, the level cap will rise again. Do you then split the zone into thirds? Fourths? When does it end? This isn't to say I'm against zones being revised, but I look to it more being toward their original intent. Like in XIV's case, this could mean bosses dropping more tomes, trash actually dropping things, and treasure coffers putting out more loot outright.

To these people, I personally urge them to content go and accept that they have lifespans. Forcing people to do things just because you'd want them to has a bad habit of leading to resentment toward that content for one reason or another. Even without the developer enforced lifespan, player interest is also a factor. MMOs can be notorious about playing catch-up, which is one of those times where "nerfs" are justified because 8-man content of today may have a **** of time actually finding 8 men in the future. So maybe you could do it with 4-5 if you're decent. Not the end of the world even if some demand the same ball-busting aspect of old... of which I'd argue there are ways to achieve that without depriving people from content. They're just never fond of handicapping themselves even though numbers are numbers and you get 2 from 5-3 or 3-1.

And if they're of the mind that a game should actually focus on exclusionary content, then I have no qualms in telling them to outright frick off because there's no justification in 99% of funds generated by their fellow players making that 1% a focus. It's also because we are shoveling money at the devs hand over fist that content needs to come often and for everyone. Otherwise, why are we paying them? I know I'm sick of MMOs that only seem to care about raiders and their twisted sense of progression, but as long as these players are growing up and becoming the future devs of games desperately trying to perpetuate those good ol' days, we'll still have this rift between casuals and hardcores that's literally supported by game mechanics.
#60 Sep 27 2013 at 5:54 AM Rating: Good
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Well here's how I look at this situation. Currently, I think most players see the 'endgame' in 14 as being HM primals for the time being. Coil 1 is not really too difficult if you just have a little organization. Basically if you could do Titan, you can do coil 1. Coil 2 is where it ramps up again.

In my opinion, the current versions of the HM primals have the perfect balance. They are very challenging but NOT impossible by any stretch of the imagination.

Right now, you will feel very proud of yourself for beating Garuda and Titan HM I think. It is this rewarding experience that many of us seek that MMOs just shy away from now days. Do you remember the airship battle in CoP? Yeah, I'm talking about that type of rewarding feeling.

The content has barely been out for a month yet they have already deemed it nerf-worthy. This is perhaps due to a couple of factors:

1) Many DF runs fail at the HM Garuda and Titan levels. I don't think this is due to difficulty at all, though: I think it is due to not having ilevel implemented on these two instances.

2) Many people are paying for others to carry them through Titan HM. This is a serious problem. You're giving gear and progression status to people who didn't demonstrate the skills needed to beat the encounter.

I would still say these HM primals should remain tough since coils do ramp up in difficulty (i.e., ADS in C2 and C4's lovely event). You are meant to master these difficult encounters before proceeding into coil as all three teach you vital mechanics you will need to understand in coil.
#61 Sep 27 2013 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
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iLvl check will fix both of those I think. Even if you pay someone to beat Titan for you, you won't be able to enter the fight without a minimum amount of gear.
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#62 Sep 27 2013 at 9:08 AM Rating: Default
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

2) Many people are paying for others to carry them through Titan HM. This is a serious problem. You're giving gear and progression status to people who didn't demonstrate the skills needed to beat the encounter.

I would still say these HM primals should remain tough since coils do ramp up in difficulty (i.e., ADS in C2 and C4's lovely event). You are meant to master these difficult encounters before proceeding into coil as all three teach you vital mechanics you will need to understand in coil.


I definitely agree with #2. If people are being carried though these fights, it won't prepare them for that next challenge. It's like learning to ride a bike. You might fall off a bit at first, but once you learn how to do these fights, it's a major accomplishment. Cheating yourself by paying people for a leech spot only makes it more trouble for you in the end.

By that same token, I don't agree that these fights should not be nerfed. I'm not suggesting it ought to be a huge nerf, but enough for the fight to be more of a stepping stone for some people. The way I see it a good majority of people will not advance this quickly though content anyway. So by the time they do the content, it's better that people have a fighting chance without elite gears. That's my biggest problem with titan. It's not really feasible for skill to trump VIT gear or DPS on Titan for that matter. Sure someone without DL or relic gear can get a win, but it's tainted due to the reliance on gear. IE.. Titan stomps..
#63 Sep 27 2013 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
iLvl check will fix both of those I think. Even if you pay someone to beat Titan for you, you won't be able to enter the fight without a minimum amount of gear.


Through solo DF, certainly. I went up against Titan before people really knew better with a group that farmed Ifrit weapons first in generally AF with a spot of DL here and there, and after half a dozen pulls and a stupidly long fight, finally killed him. BLM is OP on that fight. But Titan is more about dodging well and staying alive than raw DPS, so an iLevel check might not help at all. The best gear won't stop you from getting kicked off the side, and even if it does save you from plumes, it'll kill healer mana later on and wipe the group from mana starvation. Perhaps an iLevel check on healers alone would be most appropriate.

I actually can't think of a raw DPS check up to Titan hard. Even Demon Wall can go to a 5th repel or more before you'll be screwed, and that length of time DPS isn't a large hurdle. It's more important to properly game the mechanics than put out eye-bleeding numbers. I do have a theory that LFR changed the raiding mindset to focus more on plowing through bosses before mechanics get complicated rather than properly gaming mechanics like everyone did in the good old days, and I'm really starting to think that's why the shift is going more to gear, regardless of skill.

And I know, I used to progression raid too. Good DPS makes fights easier, shortens phases, blasts down obstacles, etc., but an iLevel check shouldn't be put in to ensure a certain level of ease on a fight. It should only be implemented if the fight would be otherwise impossible if not for a certain level of gear.
#64 Sep 27 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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The issue of concern I think is that the people paying for others to beat Titan are feeding the RMT trade, either directly or indirectly. Either they bought the gil to pay someone to beat Titan, or the folks beating Titan for them are selling off some of that gil for cash.

Putting in an iLvl check does not guarantee any level of the skill required to beat him, but it does at minimum mean people have to spend prep time, not cash, to do it.
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#65 Sep 27 2013 at 11:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
The issue of concern I think is that the people paying for others to beat Titan are feeding the RMT trade, either directly or indirectly. Either they bought the gil to pay someone to beat Titan, or the folks beating Titan for them are selling off some of that gil for cash.

Putting in an iLvl check does not guarantee any level of the skill required to beat him, but it does at minimum mean people have to spend prep time, not cash, to do it.


I'm curious to know whether the iLvl requirement applies to pre-made parties. If not, you'll still see people selling/purchasing wins.
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#66 Sep 27 2013 at 11:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
The issue of concern I think is that the people paying for others to beat Titan are feeding the RMT trade, either directly or indirectly. Either they bought the gil to pay someone to beat Titan, or the folks beating Titan for them are selling off some of that gil for cash.

Putting in an iLvl check does not guarantee any level of the skill required to beat him, but it does at minimum mean people have to spend prep time, not cash, to do it.


That would solely shift the market, not eliminate it, with what you can buy crafted.
#67 Sep 27 2013 at 11:34 PM Rating: Decent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Well here's how I look at this situation. Currently, I think most players see the 'endgame' in 14 as being HM primals for the time being. Coil 1 is not really too difficult if you just have a little organization. Basically if you could do Titan, you can do coil 1. Coil 2 is where it ramps up again.

In my opinion, the current versions of the HM primals have the perfect balance. They are very challenging but NOT impossible by any stretch of the imagination.

Right now, you will feel very proud of yourself for beating Garuda and Titan HM I think. It is this rewarding experience that many of us seek that MMOs just shy away from now days. Do you remember the airship battle in CoP? Yeah, I'm talking about that type of rewarding feeling.

The content has barely been out for a month yet they have already deemed it nerf-worthy. This is perhaps due to a couple of factors:

1) Many DF runs fail at the HM Garuda and Titan levels. I don't think this is due to difficulty at all, though: I think it is due to not having ilevel implemented on these two instances.

2) Many people are paying for others to carry them through Titan HM. This is a serious problem. You're giving gear and progression status to people who didn't demonstrate the skills needed to beat the encounter.

I would still say these HM primals should remain tough since coils do ramp up in difficulty (i.e., ADS in C2 and C4's lovely event). You are meant to master these difficult encounters before proceeding into coil as all three teach you vital mechanics you will need to understand in coil.


So much better said than what I was trying to say.

If a developer makes content challenging and hard, but not impossible, then it needs to stay that way. Accessible content should mean just that, I have access to it. It shouldn't mean beatable content for everyone. Maybe I'm just different. To me if you nerf the hard content their is no feeling of accomplishment if/when I beat it. It's like watching the fight on youtube, but without the repair bill.
#68 Sep 28 2013 at 6:25 AM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

2) Many people are paying for others to carry them through Titan HM. This is a serious problem. You're giving gear and progression status to people who didn't demonstrate the skills needed to beat the encounter.

I would still say these HM primals should remain tough since coils do ramp up in difficulty (i.e., ADS in C2 and C4's lovely event). You are meant to master these difficult encounters before proceeding into coil as all three teach you vital mechanics you will need to understand in coil.


I definitely agree with #2. If people are being carried though these fights, it won't prepare them for that next challenge. It's like learning to ride a bike. You might fall off a bit at first, but once you learn how to do these fights, it's a major accomplishment. Cheating yourself by paying people for a leech spot only makes it more trouble for you in the end.

By that same token, I don't agree that these fights should not be nerfed. I'm not suggesting it ought to be a huge nerf, but enough for the fight to be more of a stepping stone for some people. The way I see it a good majority of people will not advance this quickly though content anyway. So by the time they do the content, it's better that people have a fighting chance without elite gears. That's my biggest problem with titan. It's not really feasible for skill to trump VIT gear or DPS on Titan for that matter. Sure someone without DL or relic gear can get a win, but it's tainted due to the reliance on gear. IE.. Titan stomps..


Sometimes its not a matter of skill - It's a matter of latency. Myself as an example: I know Titan HM so well that I could **** near do it blindfolded, with 1 hand on my PS3 controller, and the other knocking back an ice cold Corona... But if I find myself the target of a plume or landslide, 9 times outta 10, I'm completely screwed. there's just no way to get out of it, no matter how far away I am from the attack, I still get nailed. At first, I thought it was just my own shotty connection, so I decided to buy me a fancy new Asus RT - AC66U router (Which is really awesome, btw. I've only had it for 3 days as of this post, but its magical /drool), so I'm thinkin - AWRIGHT TITAN, LESS GO! This time, the latency improved somewhat... I basically, knowing this fight so well, anticipate where an attack is gonna hit next and move outta the way.... But this only works maybe 40% of the time. Most of the time, I'll still get nailed even though, on my screen, I'm clearly outta the AOE's range. Seems its not just me though. Every run I do, theres guaranteed to be 2 or 3 others minimum with the same issue... so we basically chalk it up to server issues or distance from data centers etc etc.... ;__;
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#69 Sep 28 2013 at 7:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
The issue of concern I think is that the people paying for others to beat Titan are feeding the RMT trade, either directly or indirectly. Either they bought the gil to pay someone to beat Titan, or the folks beating Titan for them are selling off some of that gil for cash.

Putting in an iLvl check does not guarantee any level of the skill required to beat him, but it does at minimum mean people have to spend prep time, not cash, to do it.


I'm not sure this is the case.

Here's what is happening:

People farm Castrum for DL gear normally, right? Well, what if you really want to just get Titan out of the way and get your relic weapon? You can run Castrum but forgo the DL gear in favor of materials. These crafting materials sell for quite a bit on the market, currently, as many FCs that are progressing require these items to make the rings and accessories (plus Vanya stuff) that is actually on par or better than some of the Allagan or AF2 stuff.

I think I see Titan runs being sold for 200k g on Migard at the moment. That would be the equivalent of 4 Castrum runs.

See but this is a huge issue in itself. You SHOULD be going for DL gear with the tomes you've obtained from Castrum and not selling them off instead. Sure, you can always go back and get the DL gear after you were carried through Titan but then you really don't have the experience from Titan to function well in coils.

I can think of a number of ways to fix this issue but they all come with side effects. Ex.) Make Titan more difficult so that there is no room to carry two people through it. This isn't feasible and would just **** off the playerbase.

You could perhaps require people to do the DF HM Titan x number of times before being able to enter it with a premade group but then you probably won't learn anything from the DF HM Titan settings.

Really, I don't know how you'd prevent another player from 'purchasing' a Titan run.
#70 Sep 28 2013 at 9:47 AM Rating: Default
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Catwho wrote:
The issue of concern I think is that the people paying for others to beat Titan are feeding the RMT trade, either directly or indirectly. Either they bought the gil to pay someone to beat Titan, or the folks beating Titan for them are selling off some of that gil for cash.

Putting in an iLvl check does not guarantee any level of the skill required to beat him, but it does at minimum mean people have to spend prep time, not cash, to do it.

RMT will never be fully gone and any prevention means can only deter but never stop it. Doesn't mean the law should stop trying.

People are feeding the RMT trade, it's not just TItan, people feed the RMT trade for various personal reasons.Just like other illegal or legal activities. All the services have a hard path and an easy path. No matter how hard the law tries to shut it down, assuming they really want to(Tell public one thing and want another). When there is a need not being fulfilled,and there are options,it wants to happen.

Life got you down or can't feel free and interesting sober?
We got your legal drugs like alcohol and over the counter drugs or the illegal.
Hard way: Work your **** off, work smarter, make your life interesting, face your fears.

Not feeling beautiful romance or amazing *** in your relationship?
We got the legal stuff like romance novels and media or the illegal like prostitution and slave trading.
Hard Way: Work on relationship, split up and find "The One",work on your personal relationship.

The list goes on and on. Someone made a comment on nerfing older content and how it diminishes a sense of accomplishment.

They could assume the same thing about anything meaningful they ever accomplished that gets easier for others to do in the future?
But they would be wrong. Accomplishment has nothing to do with what others think or do. That's recognition, but the recognition would be met because you did it at a time when things were hard. Not everyone would know or care. But if we get frustrated by that then we got bigger issues like self-esteem or vanity. Can't make the whole world love me.

TLDR: If anything future nerfs eliminate the need thus lessen the demand for RMT. If SE wants to allow a tougher challenge for those who seek it. Have an option, pre-nerf and nerfed mode.







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