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So you want to be a tank?Follow

#27 Oct 04 2013 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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2,550 posts
Jeskradha wrote:
supermegazeke wrote:

On another note, I hate sleep. For me, there is not one dungeon in the game I have come across that requires any of the mobs in the pull to be sleeped. As a WAR tank, it's annoying if a BLM tries to lay down a mass sleep before I can even fire off 1 OP, leading me to not care if I break your sleep spell you felt so inclined to cast before I can group everything up, in favor instead of getting full hate on everything. I do not mind sleep if it's timed correctly. I do use flash, but as a WAR, my MP pool is lacking to say the least. The way I look at premature sleeps, is that if you fire it off before I have a chance to get full hate on the whole pull, when the mobs wake, they are going to zerg for the rest of the party, and then all hell breaks loose. My job is to protect the party first and foremost. If at any time an enemy is asleep and not under my control, I have no problem hitting them with a tomahawk or OP to swing it my way. Obviously, if it's a fubar pull from the start, and the rest of the party feels in danger cause I'm having a hard time picking mobs up, feel free to sleep to save your own skin.


This is why I sleep every time you pull LOL, Cause I know you hate it!

For me tho, I feel like using CC is important even if it doesn't really matter, just cause it takes stress off the healer.

And I know when your tanking its not necessary, but in pugs where the tank/heals are not so great it becomes necessary and its helpful to me to just stay in the habit of doing it.

On a side note, I ran brayflox with a tank who just kept spinning the last boss in a circle cause it made it easier for him to dodge his breath attack leading to me and the healer getting one shotted a couple times....


That brayflox story is unfortunate... With sleep, ideally, the blm should wait until the tank gets the first flash off and then cast the aoe sleep, with the target on 1. Then if others need to be slept because they were out of range, get to those second. The reason I start the sleep target on 1 (the one the tank is attacking) is because I know that the aoe sleep is going to hit everything, I know that the #1 target will be woken up immediately, and if I am already targeting it I can follow up with my dps rotation.

Edited, Oct 4th 2013 2:13pm by Valkayree
#28 Oct 04 2013 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
44 posts
rfolkker wrote:
There are 5 attack markings, therefore 5 macros

One macro:

/target attack5
/target attack4
/target attack3
/target attack2
/target attack1

Leaves the lowest-numbered enemy targeted.
#29 Oct 04 2013 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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2,214 posts
cartec wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
There are 5 attack markings, therefore 5 macros

One macro:

/target attack5
/target attack4
/target attack3
/target attack2
/target attack1

Leaves the lowest-numbered enemy targeted.

Nice, simple, and effective:). Doesn't work for tanking (as I typically switch targets before the last one is dead), but definitely effective.
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#30 Oct 04 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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Kordain wrote:
One thing I find as a tank that is never written down in guides.

In nearly every case, you are the leader. Whether you like that position or not. People in the group will look to you for direction, you'll control the pace of progress. More than likely you'll shoulder the blame if things go badly. It's a strange thing to observe if you've any passing interest in psychology. A good tank can use this to leverage more out of a group than it is currently giving. Just little lines like "Man, we were so close! This time lets really chase those cooldowns!" or "You're going a great job Dragoon. If you could just give me an extra second before you go mad I'll be able to keep up with your insane aggro". Very cheesy I know, but kind words in an assumed position of power is a very effective way of getting even pants-on-heads and instant-flamers to do what you want them to.


Well said. This is basically what i was arguing in a thread a couple weeks back where someone was trying to tell me that tanking is not in fact more responsibility and hence more "effort" than DPSing. You worded it a lot better than i did.
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#31 Oct 04 2013 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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197 posts
Jeskradha wrote:

On a side note, I ran brayflox with a tank who just kept spinning the last boss in a circle cause it made it easier for him to dodge his breath attack leading to me and the healer getting one shotted a couple times....


Valkayree wrote:
That brayflox story is unfortunate...


He wouldn't stop doing it either, after like 4 wipes I ended up just leaving.

I have been running brayflox a lot trying to get the battlecaster robes, lately I've just been queuing to join a group in progress hoping to skip some of the trash at the beginning, the flip side to that is you get into a lot of groups were someone doesn't know what they are doing. Usually I just suggest they go read up on their class and then drop group.

It works both ways tho, I've actually had a lot of fun helping a tank who doesn't know the fight get through it, and there is a lot of satisfaction having a group tell you thanks about 100 times for being helpful, I cant wait for the MVP system they are going to implement in 2.1.
#32 Oct 04 2013 at 2:10 PM Rating: Decent
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4,175 posts
Gnu wrote:
Tab > Mark 1 > Tab > Mark 2 > Tab > Mark 3 - takes less then two seconds for most encounters just nearest to furthest, and from there on the fight is easy, and the DDs don't miss the mark.


I'm just curious... which one of those buttons you listed above gets your targets to line up in order of priority from left to right for you before you mark? Smiley: lol

I don't really care all that much for marking, but it's really only necessary on sleep/CC targets. Most everything else you just target the tank on pull, press T(target of target if you bound T to something else) then go into your normal rotation. By the time that's dead your tank should have built enough hate that it doesn't matter what you beat down next. If the mobs are actually dangerous, all you have to do is look at your screen really to tell what they've moved on to as a target.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#33 Oct 04 2013 at 2:32 PM Rating: Default
I am a lvl 44 BLM. When I run dungeons the tank will normally pull the mobs towards him/her. I normally wait for all the mobs to gather together before casting sleep so I can make sure all of them are slept.

From your comment it seems like you would like me to wait a little longer before casting sleep. Is this correct? If so when would you suggest i cast? I ask because I have tanks hit the slept targets all the time, I will cast sleep again and the tank hits the targets again. All while the first target is still alive.

I never asked why they do this as I play on PS3 with no keyboard.

I have also noticed that if I do not sleep quickly the tank will be beat on by a mob of monsters and their HP will fall which means the healer will cast heal on the tank and pull hate.

#34 Oct 04 2013 at 2:57 PM Rating: Excellent
FilthMcNasty wrote:
...look at your screen really to tell what they've moved on to as a target.


So you just stand there doing nothing waiting for them to decide? Imagine if everyone had that idea.

I want to be casting on the next target the very second the current mobs dies, and to do that I (everyone) needs to know the next target before the last one dies.



Edited, Oct 4th 2013 5:03pm by Gnu
#35 Oct 04 2013 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
cartec wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
There are 5 attack markings, therefore 5 macros

One macro:

/target attack5
/target attack4
/target attack3
/target attack2
/target attack1

Leaves the lowest-numbered enemy targeted.


Isn't this macro backwards?
#36 Oct 04 2013 at 3:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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2,550 posts
elrocco wrote:
I am a lvl 44 BLM. When I run dungeons the tank will normally pull the mobs towards him/her. I normally wait for all the mobs to gather together before casting sleep so I can make sure all of them are slept.

From your comment it seems like you would like me to wait a little longer before casting sleep. Is this correct? If so when would you suggest i cast? I ask because I have tanks hit the slept targets all the time, I will cast sleep again and the tank hits the targets again. All while the first target is still alive.

I never asked why they do this as I play on PS3 with no keyboard.

I have also noticed that if I do not sleep quickly the tank will be beat on by a mob of monsters and their HP will fall which means the healer will cast heal on the tank and pull hate.



I hold 2 to 3 seconds after the tank first attacks before I sleep the group.
#37 Oct 04 2013 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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197 posts
Gnu wrote:

I want to be casting on the next target the very second the current mobs dies, and to do that I (everyone) needs to know the next target before the last one dies.



Same for me also, It just makes things sooo much easier for everyone if there is a kill order, I play a BLM and if the target we're on is at less the 10%, I'll switch to the next target, cast thunder on that target, and then move back to the first one, That way I'm not wasting a Dot on a target that's about to die. The same thing goes if I don't think I'm going to get a cast off in time before the current target dies.

Also it just helps the DD focus on a target, nothing is more annoying to me then having DPS all over the place so it takes a mob twice as long to die cause everyone isn't focusing the same target.

Just makes sense to me that if there is something you can do to make the run go smoother all around, why you wouldn't utilize it.
#38 Oct 04 2013 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
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1,606 posts
Flash doesn't wake targets does it? I could swear that I have been in plenty of fights where one of the targets was slept and I would use flash and it didn't wake them up since it didn't do damage. Over power sure as hell does but it is a damaging attack so I would imagine it would wake stuff up lol.
#39 Oct 04 2013 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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66 posts
Gnu wrote:
cartec wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
There are 5 attack markings, therefore 5 macros

One macro:

/target attack5
/target attack4
/target attack3
/target attack2
/target attack1

Leaves the lowest-numbered enemy targeted.


Isn't this macro backwards?



That is what I was thinking, but how I think this works is it targets 5 first then switches to 4, 3, 2, 1... if 1 is dead then it stays on 2, if 1 and 2 are dead then it stays on 3, etc.
#40 Oct 04 2013 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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576 posts
Azoria wrote:
Gnu wrote:
cartec wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
There are 5 attack markings, therefore 5 macros

One macro:

/target attack5
/target attack4
/target attack3
/target attack2
/target attack1

Leaves the lowest-numbered enemy targeted.


Isn't this macro backwards?



That is what I was thinking, but how I think this works is it targets 5 first then switches to 4, 3, 2, 1... if 1 is dead then it stays on 2, if 1 and 2 are dead then it stays on 3, etc.


Pretty much this.

The lowest marked mob is targeted last, and thus always has priority.
#41 Oct 04 2013 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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3,737 posts
MrTalos wrote:
Flash doesn't wake targets does it? I could swear that I have been in plenty of fights where one of the targets was slept and I would use flash and it didn't wake them up since it didn't do damage. Over power sure as hell does but it is a damaging attack so I would imagine it would wake stuff up lol.


Probably they just woke up on their own.

Only direct damage will wake a sleeping target. Damage over time effects? Nope. Status effects? Nope. Punching it in the face, absolutely.
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#42 Oct 04 2013 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
Jeskradha wrote:
...I'll switch to the next target, cast thunder on that target, and then move back to the first one, That way I'm not wasting a Dot on a target that's about to die. The same thing goes if I don't think I'm going to get a cast off in time before the current target dies.

Also it just helps the DD focus on a target, nothing is more annoying to me then having DPS all over the place so it takes a mob twice as long to die cause everyone isn't focusing the same target.

Just makes sense to me that if there is something you can do to make the run go smoother all around, why you wouldn't utilize it.


Bingo. All of these points are exactly spot on.
#43 Oct 04 2013 at 5:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gnu wrote:
Jeskradha wrote:
...I'll switch to the next target, cast thunder on that target, and then move back to the first one, That way I'm not wasting a Dot on a target that's about to die. The same thing goes if I don't think I'm going to get a cast off in time before the current target dies.

Also it just helps the DD focus on a target, nothing is more annoying to me then having DPS all over the place so it takes a mob twice as long to die cause everyone isn't focusing the same target.

Just makes sense to me that if there is something you can do to make the run go smoother all around, why you wouldn't utilize it.


Bingo. All of these points are exactly spot on.


I honestly think people who espouse the notion that "marking isn't necessary"* are 1) missing the point** and 2) trying to (inexplicably) make themselves sound more pro




*of course its not necessary, neither is min-maxing your gear, derp

**the point is getting everyone in the group to be on the same page
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#44 Oct 04 2013 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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8,779 posts
All I'll say to this is that they really need to make Guildhests more prominent. I'd say require the first two at least, before allowing access to Satasha and a continuance of the story line. Implement something that makes it so during particularly slow times you don't wait for an hour as a new player (i.e. you get in with AI players who perform the specified roles).

Cause that's basically what Guildhests do....train you in the various aspects of dungeoning (on top of the Class quests, which do a wonderful job of fleshing out the various facets of a given class).
#45 Oct 04 2013 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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424 posts
elrocco wrote:
I am a lvl 44 BLM. When I run dungeons the tank will normally pull the mobs towards him/her. I normally wait for all the mobs to gather together before casting sleep so I can make sure all of them are slept.

From your comment it seems like you would like me to wait a little longer before casting sleep. Is this correct? If so when would you suggest i cast? I ask because I have tanks hit the slept targets all the time, I will cast sleep again and the tank hits the targets again. All while the first target is still alive.

I never asked why they do this as I play on PS3 with no keyboard.

I have also noticed that if I do not sleep quickly the tank will be beat on by a mob of monsters and their HP will fall which means the healer will cast heal on the tank and pull hate.



First off, please buy a keyboard, they are inexpensive. =)

And really, you don't have to be casting anything for the first few moments of a fight. It really is common courtesy in my opinion to let everything get settled before you start wailing away on any of your skills. Once a tank hits with shield lob/tomahawk, he has to wait at least 2.5 seconds before he can get off another attack, whether it be an OP or a Flash. If you cast anything at all in that amount of time, there is a chance that the enemies not hit by the initial pull will head straight for you. In your case, you're a BLM, so I'm assuming you're back a ways from the tanks desired tanking spot, so now he has to make haste to run over to you to pull those mobs, lest they kill you. For the most part, up to the point I am in the game, there are only a handful of pulls that really put me on me heals in terms how much damage I was taking compared to how much the healer was healing for. I don't play a BLM at all, so I really have no room for suggestions, but at least wait until the tank has used a couple skills before touching any buttons. This obviously changes with every party that you come across, as some do worse/better then others, and you will have to adapt accordingly.

Seriously though, keyboards are like 7 dollars some places. Pick one up, you will be doing yourself, and others that play with you a kindness. =)

Edited, Oct 4th 2013 8:31pm by supermegazeke
#46 Oct 04 2013 at 11:55 PM Rating: Decent
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4,175 posts
Gnu wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
...look at your screen really to tell what they've moved on to as a target.


So you just stand there doing nothing waiting for them to decide? Imagine if everyone had that idea.

I want to be casting on the next target the very second the current mobs dies, and to do that I (everyone) needs to know the next target before the last one dies.


It's really not that important that you cast a spell or ability immediately. In fact, if you take a few seconds for the tank to switch targets(if they haven't already moved to the next mob like they should have), it gives them time to establish aggro. If they aren't marking mobs on the fly it's in your best interest to do that anyway.

Personally when I tank, I mark two mobs tops before a pull; the cc target(if necessary) and the primary damage target. Well before the primary target is dead I've already marked and moved on to the next kill target. All my party needs to do when the first mob dies is simply hit the function key to select me, press t to switch to my target and continue their rotation. Quick and easy with only two keystrokes and no macro setup.

I guess it's a matter of personal preference, but marking everything just clutters the screen for me. In all honesty, marking isn't really even necessary beyond selecting a target for cc.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#47 Oct 05 2013 at 5:32 AM Rating: Decent
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72 posts
What scews my hate management the most is that pt member who does nothing but aoe a pack of mobs over and over. I mark targets and tell group to focus fire in order marked. To get full aggro I pull, flash, then begin rotating ws between them, but before I can get that sequence off someone starts aoe spam and the secondary and tertiary mobs peel off. Single target dots are fine...on the primary marked target. Aoe spam just slows down the effectiveness and negates the point of marking/focus fire. Yes, I get aggro back, but it makes me look like im ******** up while I frantically provoke/shield lob the aoe'd ones that peel off.
#48 Oct 05 2013 at 8:07 PM Rating: Good
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424 posts
SistinasAria wrote:
What scews my hate management the most is that pt member who does nothing but aoe a pack of mobs over and over. I mark targets and tell group to focus fire in order marked. To get full aggro I pull, flash, then begin rotating ws between them, but before I can get that sequence off someone starts aoe spam and the secondary and tertiary mobs peel off. Single target dots are fine...on the primary marked target. Aoe spam just slows down the effectiveness and negates the point of marking/focus fire. Yes, I get aggro back, but it makes me look like im ******** up while I frantically provoke/shield lob the aoe'd ones that peel off.



Try hitting Flash multiple times at the start of the fight. If a party is not going along with your play style, you need to adapt accordingly to the situation. If you know you have someone in your party that actively uses Aoe's to bring targets down, then it's your job to make sure that he doesn't pull hate from you regardless of how you feel your rotation should run in that situation. 100% of the time, a DD is going to be doing way more damage then you are, and it's your job to make sure he can do that effectively, and at all times. A run I had at AK not to long ago had me tanking for a much better geared summoner and bard then I have ever been partied with. Although I would have liked to use the same rotation I used in Brayflox to get through the dungeon, there was just no logical way that can happen. Resorting to a much different and aggressive use of OP and Flash was the only way I could prevail in keeping mobs off anyone but me. You do what you gotta do, and sticking to methods like they are the absolute may get you into more trouble than if you learn to adapt to each given situation.

Edited, Oct 5th 2013 10:08pm by supermegazeke
#49 Oct 07 2013 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
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2,447 posts
I've tanked through Cutter's Cry with a BLM in static and I'm on WAR...

We've started using sleep as a more prominent tool lately as the mob pulls get more complicated and tougher, but the one thing I ask her to do is not just wait 2-3 seconds to sleep, but give me closer to 7-8. My pull is almost always Tomahawk, then 2-3 Overpowers followed by a Flash. After my last overpower I tell her "ok to sleep" and know I have to stick to Flash for AoE hate. Before we started communicating like this, I'd always wake up her slept mobs as she'd wait that 2-3 seconds but I was still in my initial hate cycle.

Sleep is great, but know your tank and talk to them to understand how they like to work their hate cycle.

EDIT: Oh and since people were discussing...I always mark my mobs, except the last one usually. 4 mobs in pull...1, 2 and 3 are marked. I like to think the last one is obvious ;)

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 10:36am by dawgdchi
#50 Oct 07 2013 at 11:09 AM Rating: Excellent
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Gnu wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
...look at your screen really to tell what they've moved on to as a target.


So you just stand there doing nothing waiting for them to decide? Imagine if everyone had that idea.

I want to be casting on the next target the very second the current mobs dies, and to do that I (everyone) needs to know the next target before the last one dies.


It's really not that important that you cast a spell or ability immediately. In fact, if you take a few seconds for the tank to switch targets(if they haven't already moved to the next mob like they should have), it gives them time to establish aggro. If they aren't marking mobs on the fly it's in your best interest to do that anyway.

Personally when I tank, I mark two mobs tops before a pull; the cc target(if necessary) and the primary damage target. Well before the primary target is dead I've already marked and moved on to the next kill target. All my party needs to do when the first mob dies is simply hit the function key to select me, press t to switch to my target and continue their rotation. Quick and easy with only two keystrokes and no macro setup.

I guess it's a matter of personal preference, but marking everything just clutters the screen for me. In all honesty, marking isn't really even necessary beyond selecting a target for cc.


Marking actually provides yet another thing you can click on for targeting. You can click the mark itself. Pretty handy since it is up and out of the mess.

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 1:13pm by Gnu
#51 Oct 07 2013 at 11:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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2,448 posts
I'd also like to chime in and touch on the point again about being the leader. You control the pace and the movement of the group. You are the foundation. It is crucial that the other pieces of the foundation know what is going on via communication. Just like in real combat with silent hand signals, if you aren't going to talk you need to use marking so everyone knows what you are attacking. This is the only foolproof way to ensure you communicate what needs to die first. This is the core of teamwork on the battlefield, foolproof communications that are KISS. Such as counting.

Tl:dr this whole thread: Use marking and do whatever you can to figure out a button or macro combination to make it work for you, even if you only use #1 and put it on the target you currently want dead. And make sure the others are following it! YOU ARE THE LEADER. THE PROTECTOR. YOU WILL DRAG THEM TO GLORY WHETHER THEY LIKE IT OR NOT.
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