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#127 Oct 22 2013 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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Without writing a page long story, I'm just going to say that having someone berate you and tell you that you suck can stick with you more then you think it will, and I don't consider myself to be thin skinned being the youngest of three boys I took my share of beatings/harrasment as a child.

Is it really that hard to be helpful, or at the very least just drop group without having to poke fun at someone. Not everyone is good at everything, regardless of age. I got in a brayflox run where the tank was horrible, like really horrible, he couldn't hold aggro on anything and was completely unresponsive to anything we said. After 4-5 wipes on the last boss, with me pulling aggro after two fire1 casts, I just said that maybe he should read up on his class and drop group, cause honestly, there is really no reason to be like "OMFG YOU ******* SUCK" is there?

I don't know, after reading all of these posts, it makes me really appreciate the friendly helpful atmosphere in my FC.
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#128 Oct 22 2013 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
A lot of this comes down to management and coaching styles. There are two approaches you can take: 1. Tear someone down 2. Build someone up.

My boss in RL is amazing and smart and she is the master of balancing both these things. She sings my praises in public, and reserves her criticism for private meetings. I never feel like she is calling me out in public and the rest of our IT department thinks I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread. And yet she firmly lets me know where I can improve without question.

Princess tanks are the @#%^ managers who yell at employees in front of the rest of the staff.


Is there a tactful way to ask someone if they know how to read? Smiley: laugh
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#129 Oct 22 2013 at 7:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
A lot of this comes down to management and coaching styles. There are two approaches you can take: 1. Tear someone down 2. Build someone up.

My boss in RL is amazing and smart and she is the master of balancing both these things. She sings my praises in public, and reserves her criticism for private meetings. I never feel like she is calling me out in public and the rest of our IT department thinks I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread. And yet she firmly lets me know where I can improve without question.

Princess tanks are the @#%^ managers who yell at employees in front of the rest of the staff.


This is one of the top rules of being an effective leader: Praise in public, correct in private. I just wish some of the senior enlisted and officers at my command would remember that from time to time XD.
#130 Oct 22 2013 at 9:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Catwho wrote:
A lot of this comes down to management and coaching styles. There are two approaches you can take: 1. Tear someone down 2. Build someone up.

My boss in RL is amazing and smart and she is the master of balancing both these things. She sings my praises in public, and reserves her criticism for private meetings. I never feel like she is calling me out in public and the rest of our IT department thinks I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread. And yet she firmly lets me know where I can improve without question.

Princess tanks are the @#%^ managers who yell at employees in front of the rest of the staff.


Is there a tactful way to ask someone if they know how to read? Smiley: laugh


"Hey I'm not sure if you know this, but..."

"By the way, X ability does this really cool thing, try using it more"

"If you hover your mouse over the ability it gives you some tips about it. Not sure if you noticed that."

Avoid smiley faces. They can be interpreted as sarcasm. I use the " XD " and " :D " ones instead because they're less likely to trip someone's sarcasm-o-meter when giving constructive criticism.


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#131 Oct 22 2013 at 10:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well you can't berate on private, due to not being able to send tells in dungeon so party chat is where it's at
#132 Oct 22 2013 at 10:35 PM Rating: Excellent
Had a wonderful incident with a princess THM this afternoon!

We're in Halitali, beat Firemane, then take the aether up to the next floor. He and I are there waiting on the drg and cnj, and THE MOMENT they appear he pulls the mantis. I say "Please don't pull," and he says "Please don't dawdle." Strike 1.

He proceeds to attack mobs in the order HE prefers. Strike 2.

During the final boss, he doesn't go for the adds at all. I know you can get away with skipping one set of adds, but it never hurts to get the basics down. I simply say "<name>, grab the adds." His response was:

Shut up you ****.
Don't tell me how to play.
I'll play my way.
Boss burn is faster.
Me >> I'm a **** for asking you to do your job? xD
Him >> Your a **** for thinking you know everything. ***** you. *leaves dungeon*
Strike 3.

Really?
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#133 Oct 22 2013 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
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IKickYoDog wrote:
Had a wonderful incident with a princess THM this afternoon!

We're in Halitali, beat Firemane, then take the aether up to the next floor. He and I are there waiting on the drg and cnj, and THE MOMENT they appear he pulls the mantis. I say "Please don't pull," and he says "Please don't dawdle." Strike 1.

He proceeds to attack mobs in the order HE prefers. Strike 2.

During the final boss, he doesn't go for the adds at all. I know you can get away with skipping one set of adds, but it never hurts to get the basics down. I simply say "<name>, grab the adds." His response was:

Shut up you ****.
Don't tell me how to play.
I'll play my way.
Boss burn is faster.
Me >> I'm a **** for asking you to do your job? xD
Him >> Your a **** for thinking you know everything. ***** you. *leaves dungeon*
Strike 3.

Really?


My way is the best way. Not his, not yours... mine. You're both ***** Smiley: glare
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#134 Oct 23 2013 at 1:50 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
"Hey I'm not sure if you know this, but..."

"By the way, X ability does this really cool thing, try using it more"


"If you hover your mouse over the ability it gives you some tips about it. Not sure if you noticed that."

Avoid smiley faces. They can be interpreted as sarcasm. I use the " XD " and " :D " ones instead because they're less likely to trip someone's sarcasm-o-meter when giving constructive criticism.


I've tried this so many times and it has backfired on me just as many! Any other tips you can provide? I think, in groups, I am pretty vocal and people perceive this as 'know-it-all' but all I really want is the group to succeed. And to do that, being prepared generally helps. Yeah, if you know it already, you can just tune me out but some people just take great offense to even the bolded one.

TheAnf wrote:
You should feel bad for me...I've had to put up with you for the last hour or so. Trust me its not easy. It is a chore.

Yes you are a bully and you are a coward for not just owning it.

Bullying - is unwanted, aggressive behavior among school aged children, people that involves a real or perceived power imbalance.

Do I think the person you berated is still thinking about it...I have no idea but you don't know either. He could have wrote you off as a another DF jackass or he could have quit the game and as you so brilliantly put it..."put the rope around his neck"
you have no idea.

I'll tell you what I have learned...you are a bad player. I think you suck at the game. You may have uber leet skillz boyyzzz but attitude and personality are nil. Where I come from character matters, reputation matters, kindness matters.

So to recap because I'm sure you require everything handed to you easily...
- You are a bad person. Period. Blanket statement. Evidence see all your posts.
- You are what is wrong with the games community in a nutshell
- You are a Coward, I see right through your sh*t.

Anf 1
Sethern79 0

Take your sh*t to the "OF"


No offense (I think you know what this means), but you're kind of acting a bit hypocritical here.

Yes, the person you are quoting is admittedly an @#%^ at times. Everyone is guilty of this. We've had a bad day, we come home to play a game, and are presented with more frustration. It can make some people snap.

But you berate/mock him and call him a bad person when you do not even know him in real life. How are you any better by your own logic?

I think you both need to step away for a while and think about why you play video games with other people. It certainly isn't so you can come on the forums and ***** at each other..or so I would hope.




You know what? Sometimes, to get a player to do better, you do need to call them out and put them on the spot. They have two options: deny they need to improve or seek advice/information from the person who called them out or other sources. No need to ridicule them but how do you nicely tell someone, "Well, dear, you just suck so if you could get better that'd be great."? It isn't really possible without the other person becoming offended.

This type of attitude shouldn't ever be displayed outside of content that doesn't require a specific player to perform a specific role to ensure group success. Yes, dungeons fall into this category but all of the dungeons up till 50 really just teach you how to play with others and teach you about general mechanics. Therefore, you need to take this into account and give people a few tries + some 'friendly' advice before you let the bile flow.

If it's my 12th wipe on WP where the tank has tried every single time to 'speed run' his way through the dungeon when the other players (including myself) do not have the gear for it, then I am going to not only call out the tank on his inefficient use of the party's time but also tell him he should know better/know the party's limitations/observe the obvious trend.

I actually was healing WP earlier today with a tank. We didn't wipe but the tank acted like a complete douchebag. After we had killed maybe 3~4 packs, he left mid pull.

While I won't berate people off the bat unless they have insulted another party member for no reason whatsoever, I do see the need to critique a player who continually causes failure.

Edited, Oct 23rd 2013 3:56am by HitomeOfBismarck
#135 Oct 23 2013 at 2:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ive only run into a few so called princesses, guess I have been lucky, and have only been yelled at a few times. Some admitidly my fault, as in I always seem to have issues in AK, at the wall so I learned, and since I do not like the dungeon to much I hardly run it unless with FC members. Usally I get yelled at cause either a: I ask dps to try and dodge aoe, and they snap, or b: ask to slow down and not pull 10 mobs at once, because whats zn extra 2-3, minover a wipe. If people would just relax and not be so overly rushed to be first to get something it would really be nice. Also to the DF speed runners that are full DL and relic +1, dont ***** because someone in the group is new, or doesnt have the same gear, your in a starter lv 50 dungeon so you are obviously not there for any challenge other than farming. Yes I kbow youve run it a billion times and it bexomes mind numbing, but you are choosing to do this, and not everyone is going to progress at youre super rate.
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#136 Oct 23 2013 at 3:06 AM Rating: Default
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Gnu wrote:
Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
Queen EmmanuellaLima wrote:
I was not trying to troll


[img=245252]

You ***** about this game like you hate it, yet you paid for an account to post here to eliminate ads (meaning that you want to spend time here)... But you're not trolling. Oh, and you're stunned by the fact that people don't greet you with welcome arms when you compare the game to FFXI... but yet that's how you post. I don't think it's you comparing the game. I think it's you. You need to realize that your posts are virtual garbage, useless whining, utter wastes of digital space. That's more why you are receiving a backlash.


Woah a new Troll has joined us while I was away. Hi there! Your post is super amusing. :D

Start out the post with, "I was not trying to troll."

Then you immediately post a video that only a true troll has in their video library. "Oh, no you didn't!" Snap a Z girl. Bam!

The post then takes a nose dive, starting out with, "You ***** about.... blah blah blah - TLDR".

Anyway, thanks for joining in here. We were getting light on trolls and it's always more fun when someone is spewing hateful nonsense that you have to dodge.

AHHHHHH! Watch out for the AoE nonsense - Don't stand in the red circle of gibberish!

So ya, you just started my Monday off with a big laugh. Thanks so much! :)


I wondered myself how did she get that video or did she make it herself.
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#137EmmanuellaLima, Posted: Oct 23 2013 at 3:17 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Everyone else is saying its WoW and completely copied WoW. When FF11 was out before wow and it copied things from tons of games. AI system is copied from Tera even the mob return. The gear and endgame and other things are copied from DC Universe Online. Which anyone that played it knew it was a bad idea. People rely on the gear for endgame and not learning how to do the endgame. You can need 30 rated armor to get into a raid on DC. The players want others with 85 rated armor for a raid they have no reason to do. They turning to game into DC from most of DC players being the jackasses your meeting at endgame and leaving. They do the same thing in DC and it they rise the level to 75 in this game. They will still want a level 75 full team to do a 50 raid. FF was known for skill and learning to get better. Is why so many people like it, you could have best gear and be ******.
#138EmmanuellaLima, Posted: Oct 23 2013 at 3:20 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Did you see how good the new one looks. I am going straight to that when it comes out. I already paid 6 months in advance on this game so not worried about losing sub. I bet you a WoW 2 comes out because WoW copied everquest.
#139 Oct 23 2013 at 3:30 AM Rating: Default
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TheAnf wrote:
Sethern79 wrote:
Call me a "Princess" all you want! If you are in a dungeon level 30 or higher and you still don't know your job GTFO. I am not here to teach you how to play the game. As a WHM I can just drop the group and get a better one. If you are spanking my sleep targets, pulling hate over and over, not keeping hate, NOT USING YOUR GD COOL DOWNS (tanks I am looking at you), Or just plain disrupting the group I am going to say something and there is a good chance I will drop the party if I need to!

I was in a group today that did all the above at once. The 2 dps thought they where off tanks and smacked all of my sleep targets. The tank could only keep hate on one target at a time and had no GD idea what a cool down was. then to top it off I explain a boss fight to them letting them know I will be sleeping the boss when the add spawns and the damn tank stays on the boss for the full fight stopping me from casting sleep on it and forcing me to heal the dps who where off tanking the add. The add dies with me at 1/3 mana shortly after one of our dps dies from a cone aoe attack and starts asking for a rez wile the tank was getting his *** handed to him because he did not use any cool downs at all ever! I run out of mana after heal tanking the boss when the tank went down and we all die!

I am sorry but if dropping that group with a "You are all bad bad bad players!" Makes me a "princess" I will gladly take that title!


Not sure about Princess but for sure something starting with an a and ending with a hole. It doesn't matter how bad a party is dropping saying "you are all bad bad bad players!" then you're not a Princess you're a ****. Even if someone sucks something fierce in the game you have zero right say jack all to them. What gives you the right? Were you perfect your first job to 50 on your first MMO? How do you know the person in your party wasn't 15 years old and just trying out the game for the first time...FFS you can be 50 in a week or two in this game without trying at all if your not familiar with MMO's things like pull management, party dynamics, hate management etc etc etc are VERY VERY VERY new to you. The player in question could be someone who has played solo games forever and like this thread has suggested the 4 previous dungeons can be done without much effort this could be his/her first real challenge in game.

You want to play with people as uber awesome skilled as you join a Free company and party with people you know...don't expect Duty finder to always put you in an elite group. To me Duty finder is the equilvalent of accepting a blind invite in FFXI...sure it could work out but chances are you getting stuck with a whm with no subjob and 5 DD's...

Not everyone is an MMO expert regardless of the job they choose...I remember in FFXI there was a WHM/THF on my server named Anna...she refused to switch subjobs and there were posts, flames and name calling all over the place this board included for years. I was told later that Anna was at 14 year old girl who just wanted to play a game. Now I never flamed her I never encountered her ingame (aside from passing her in town) I have a niece that is 14 and is sort of into Rift and I would tear a new one to anyone who made her worthless because she attacked a spelt pixel mob in a dungeon. There is no death pen in game, gil is easy to get so the only lost thing is time...which if it was a DF PUG it's not the "bad" players fault its your's for joining a PUG if youre not willing to deal with fresho's



I feel people should never call someone a noob or bad player if they are not willing to teach them. That’s one thing I do not like about this game. Duty Finder is putting people together from all different servers. You’re not able to take the person out and show them what they can do. I try to tell them in dungeons but its better outside in battle showing them while in the same role. People got to realize a pug you do not know the persons play style. Thats another reason I keep myself to back up heal and other things in pugs.
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#140 Oct 23 2013 at 6:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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You could have just made one mega reply.
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#141 Oct 23 2013 at 8:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Queen EmmanuellaLima wrote:
Everyone else is saying its WoW and completely copied WoW. When FF11 was out before wow and it copied things from tons of games. AI system is copied from Tera even the mob return. The gear and endgame and other things are copied from DC Universe Online. Which anyone that played it knew it was a bad idea. People rely on the gear for endgame and not learning how to do the endgame. You can need 30 rated armor to get into a raid on DC. The players want others with 85 rated armor for a raid they have no reason to do. They turning to game into DC from most of DC players being the jackasses your meeting at endgame and leaving. They do the same thing in DC and it they rise the level to 75 in this game. They will still want a level 75 full team to do a 50 raid. FF was known for skill and learning to get better. Is why so many people like it, you could have best gear and be sh*tty.


I'm not seeing nearly as many comparisons to WoW as I am to FFXI. Maybe on other forums, but I only read this one.

As to your other points.... I'm not sure what you mean about mob AI being copied from Tera. You seem to be talking specifically about mob leashing, which has been going on far longer than Tera has been around. Actually WoW was the first time I saw that behavior (because of the zoneless world structure).

I never played DCUO, but I'll tell you that the endgame in FFXI most closely resembles very early WoW and Rift.

People being douchebags to each other is timeless.
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#142 Oct 23 2013 at 11:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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I just wanted to toss in that "stealing" good ideas from other games is actually the proper thing to do. Not just games, but any software development project. Or any project.

It's called using "best practices" and "research" and it's only when a company isn't borrowing the ideas that work from others and just kind of throwing mud at the wall to see what sticks that we end up with train wrecks like 1.0.
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#143 Oct 23 2013 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
I just wanted to toss in that "stealing" good ideas from other games is actually the proper thing to do. Not just games, but any software development project. Or any project.


eh, it is and it isn't. "stealing" good ideas without any innovation is the recipe for a large chunk of crap games on the market. Also, 1.0's primary issues were backend stuff and poor implementation. Some of the core concepts had promise, and in fact were used with superior implementation by other more successful games. (for instance the lack of auto-attack, which was seen as some kind of heresy in xiv, but was just fine in swtor)

I just think its dangerous to focus too much on looking to other games because then everyone is just passing around the same tried and true and tired ideas.
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#144 Oct 23 2013 at 1:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Llester wrote:
Catwho wrote:
I just wanted to toss in that "stealing" good ideas from other games is actually the proper thing to do. Not just games, but any software development project. Or any project.


eh, it is and it isn't. "stealing" good ideas without any innovation is the recipe for a large chunk of crap games on the market. Also, 1.0's primary issues were backend stuff and poor implementation. Some of the core concepts had promise, and in fact were used with superior implementation by other more successful games. (for instance the lack of auto-attack, which was seen as some kind of heresy in xiv, but was just fine in swtor)

I just think its dangerous to focus too much on looking to other games because then everyone is just passing around the same tried and true and tired ideas.


I have to agree with Catwho. I don't know if you ever saw 1.0, but it was literally created in a vacuum with no research into any existing MMO, other than their awareness of FFXI and a mandate to "not be like it," and it almost ruined SE when it turned out to be the completely disaster it was doomed to be.

If you were to make any other type of product, you absolutely have to know and consider what your potential customers are already using. That's where innovation that matters comes from. Sure, FFXIV borrows a lot of ideas, but most of them are simply baseline features you'd come to expect in any modern MMO. If you can't even start with the basics, you can't make an innovative game anyone would care about.

We're just at the beginning of the adventure. As time progresses, we'll start to see more innovation with new expansions and the activities that go with them. As it is, I think FFXIV is off to an excellent start (well, restart).
#145 Oct 23 2013 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm saying that going too far the other way is just as bad as what tanaka did. and also saying that not all of 1.0 was sh*t, despite the popular attitude to the contrary. I'm sure i'll have to agree to disagree with a lot of people there.


i also think that many of the baseline features of the modern mmo should be tossed into the trash, but that's a whole other conversation. Similarly, i disagree about needing baseline this and that before innovation, but again, other conversation.

ARR is imo one of the better examples of the modern mmo anyway, and sure, I expect we'll see more good stuff further down the line. I don't expect that much innovation, but i'm fine with that in this case.



Edited, Oct 23rd 2013 4:07pm by Llester
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#146 Oct 23 2013 at 3:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, the few 1.0 ideas that weren't sh*t were carried over into 2.0. If they get borrowed by a future game, they'll be considered possible best practices, too.

(The "your weapon determines your class" and "crafting classes are considered full classes in their own right" are two ideas from 1.0 that were good enough to stick around. Oh, and "leve monsters are your own person monsters for some quests" was another one.)

Edited, Oct 23rd 2013 5:01pm by Catwho
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#147 Oct 23 2013 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
"crafting classes are considered full classes in their own right"


I wish they'd done more with this actually. This one has a lot of potential to be awesome... maybe someday.

I also like the claim system in this game.
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#148 Oct 23 2013 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
"crafting classes are considered full classes in their own right"


I wish they'd done more with this actually. This one has a lot of potential to be awesome... maybe someday.
.



yeah they actually toned that one down since 1.0 . Good luck getting market boards access without a DoW/DoM in 2.0....




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#149 Oct 23 2013 at 3:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Llester wrote:

yeah they actually toned that one down since 1.0 . Good luck getting market boards access without a DoW/DoM in 2.0....


Or access to leve quests that start in outposts...
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#150 Oct 23 2013 at 4:41 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Ironically, after getting a replacement, I'd say about 90% of my parties succeed where the guy who dropped was dead wrong.


I'm willing to bet they did in fact beat it eventually. However at what point do my concerns not matter and their's is more important? You can't just pretend that my time should be donated to them so that they may improve. Is it wrong to want to complete the dungeon with a better group because it would be more enjoyable and faster? This is my point. Sure, some people are total ***** and they shouldn't act like that but their underlying reason isn't wrong. People who play this game don't play it in a vacuum. People have reasons to want to complete content more quickly or leave poor groups. I get maybe 3 hours after work to play and I'm not spending a third of that time on a group I don't enjoy being a part of. Other tanks may have completely different reasons. You can't use a blanket statement like some child and see it as a simple black and white.

If you think I'm being overly complicated you're wrong. This complexity is why this is an issue in every single MMO that has a privileged role. What everyone calls a princess tank or someone selfish isn't as selfish as you think.
#151 Oct 23 2013 at 7:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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What I've learned from this thread:

That "brake" and "break" have reached the same status as "they're, their, and there," with "you're, your" and "weather, whether."

Aaaaaand...that's about it.
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