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Yoshi P comments on Housing PricesFollow

#52 Dec 16 2013 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
Hyrist wrote:

Either way, the worst thing you have to do is wait.

---

Seriously what is the matter with people an patience these days?


Yeah, because we haven't been waiting for housing since release, right?


Really? That Short? I've been waiting since 1.0. Smiley: glare Trust me, I'm not happy either.

And to be frank, people are making the serious mistake of equating Free Company housing to Personal Housing.

Personal housing IMO, should be casual content and well within reach. Free Company housing? I'm not entirely sure it should be easy to get into.

To clarify, I don't think Free Company housing should ever be this high. But I get the reasoning. Puts me in a particular situation where I have to turn around and ask: Would have it been better if they simply delayed it?

I mean, what would we do in a situation in which: All of the graphic components and in-game assets for housing is completed, and the basic structure for the Housing mechanics itself was complete, but you in no way had the a capability to, in short notice, expand the instance structure housing for high demand yeild. Do you delay it?

I think we're still feeling the rippling effects of the Launch here. We've got a number of people SE never anticipated and they're still playing catch-up with us, beginning with the most essential system structures first - and unfortunately that's pushing expansion on the Housing servers back. However, instead of sitting on the assets they already completely, they're releasing what they got at exhorbidant prices so if players want to put in the work and dedication for it, they can still get what limited space is available. Those who are wanting to wait on better prices, unfortunately, will have to wait until SE can handle the flood.

Which, I feel will be about the time for Personal Housing, because that seems to be when they'd have the server structure for every person or small group that wants a home could get one.

But this is speculation. However, the fact that the circumstances line up to sort of affirm it has blunted my anger on this. They'll lower the price one way or another. In the meanwhile, there's a lot of content to peruse through to keep me distracted.
#53 Dec 16 2013 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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It's been one of my long-time beliefs that a dev shouldn't invest time in making content only a small minority can hope to experience. Another is that you shouldn't spite the players just to stick it to RMT. SE's basically triggered both these alarms and it's not for lacking personal patience or refusing to look at it as some long-term goal.

Yoshi has goofed. And housing isn't the only aspect he's goofed on with this patch. End of days? Nope. Fixable? Yup. Good PR until then? Certainly not. Even though I have no personal interest in housing, I'm still sour over the CT lockout since the patch seriously brings little for me to look forward to. Trying to mask restrictions as encouragement only goes so far. Spade's a spade and such.
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#54 Dec 16 2013 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Hyrist wrote:

Either way, the worst thing you have to do is wait.

---

Seriously what is the matter with people an patience these days?


Yeah, because we haven't been waiting for housing since release, right?


Really? That Short? I've been waiting since 1.0. Smiley: glare Trust me, I'm not happy either.


Ok, ok, calm down there stud. We can compare our metaphorical **** sizes in PMs if you want to play the "who has been playing FFXIV longer and therefore is the bigger and better fanboy" game. I'd rather not though.

You just don't get it. Yoshi-p said in a previous live letter, and I'm summing up here:

"The smallest land for Free Company housing will be attainable for casual Free Companies of 4-5 people and be the size of the inn room."

8 million is not a casual amount of gil for 5 people. That's a life savings.
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#55 Dec 16 2013 at 5:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I flatly don't have any sympathy for the Lock Restriction complaints, I simply don't. There's enough here to keep people entertained, if people can't bring themselves to do something other than Coil that's on them.

It's been fairly clear from 1.0 era that ARR would not be hardcore friendly, I can't possibly fathom why people keep being surprised that it continues to be that way.

There were two ways they were going to extend content in the beginning, drop rate or lockouts, they chose the later. I can't imagine how people who have been here for such a long time are surprised.

We are still in Pre-Zilart era, and I distinctly do not recall people being so upset about the time lock-out on Eco Warrior.

We're not even to Dynamis yet and I remember the locks on that.

Louiscool wrote:


8 million is not a casual amount of gil for 5 people. That's a life savings.


Citation needed, because my impression was people's life savings.

Edited, Dec 16th 2013 6:08pm by Hyrist
#56 Dec 16 2013 at 5:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyrist wrote:
Personal housing IMO, should be casual content and well within reach. Free Company housing? I'm not entirely sure it should be easy to get into.


It's not the ease that bothers me, but the execution.

They should have considered how this was going to be received before launching it. The worst affected are new players on Legacy servers who are being punished for not being Legacy players with a giant head start in wealth. Heaven forbid new or casual players are going to be kicked from Legacy or hardcore FCs because they can't pay their impossibly high dues for their share of the house, but you know it's bound to happen.

And just when they seemed to be getting the RMT situation under control, they reopen the floodgates by demanding these ridiculous prices. Now everyone is going to suffer with more annoying tells more bots hogging all the resources, and it's just the start. It's just going to be one drama time-bomb after another as FCs get caught buying houses with RMT money, especially since honest members of the group could be punished along with dishonest ones.

And it really didn't have to turn out this way. For one thing, if they had simply prioritized personal housing first, then even this crazy FC housing plan this wouldn't be such an unwelcoming move. People would feel that at least they had their own space to fall back to even if getting an FC clubhouse is a tad out-of-reach. And if they simply avoided using gil to purchase a house, then at least all players, new and old, would be on an equal footing to compete for them based on their current efforts.

FC housing doesn't have to be easy, but it shouldn't be designed to create divisions and drama whether you wanted an FC house or not.
#57 Dec 16 2013 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie, idealisticly, I want to agree with you.

But the pragmatics are not in our favor her.

They were blew away by the reception they had. By my estimates we're about at triple their intended starting number. Bad estimate from the get go? Certaintly, and Yoshida personally has owned up to it. However I don't think he's quite done paying for it, as this situation is a clear indication that he is playing catchup.

There has to be the infrastructure to be there in order for Personal Housing to be supported, and if they can't support Free Company housing to the point of having to make exorbitant prices as they are, there's no way in hell they'd have the ability to do so on a personal level, even if that would be the idea here.

Instead, what I see happening, was them having to use the infrastructure upgrades they originally intended to set in place for the Free Company Housing servers, and putting them in to the main game and instance infrastructure to further upgrade and prepare it for the PS4 and Steam releases. And, simply, Housing isn't that high of a priority, even though I want it to be. (I want my locations to roleplay, damnit!)

It's frustrating, and I really wanted them to be fully caught up by now. But again this still feels like they're a victim of their own success.

Honestly - my opinion right now? Cut the prices, stress that quantities are limited until the next patch. If a Free Company didn't have the capital or the swiftness to buy before the availability dries up? So what? At least some people are able to do something with it. Maybe they'll be kind enough to open the doors for people to hang out in while the server structure gets there.
#58 Dec 16 2013 at 6:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I flatly don't have any sympathy for the Lock Restriction complaints, I simply don't. There's enough here to keep people entertained, if people can't bring themselves to do something other than Coil that's on them.

I'm going to hope you'll take my perspective on this a bit more seriously given our past interactions on the XI boards here, but I'll simply start by saying I find your stance disappointing. The following are things I've done since launch on a fresh server.

- Leveled BLM to 50 with most other jobs at least 20.
- Leveled all crafting professions to 50.
- Leveled miner and botanist to 50. (Technically just need to spend the leves to do the latter, but that's like an hour of play tops)
- Have +1 Relic for my BLM and hat, body, legs, and feet with other DL or crafted accessories.
- Have completed all story content.
- Have most HQ crafter AF decently melded with materia.

You can call me hardcore if that makes you feel better. I'm more likely to put myself in the top 25% of the game's population than the 10% Yoshi alluded to with BC progress. You'll also notice I didn't mention participating in BC, in part because I utterly loathe being forced into scheduling or statics for content. So you could technically say BC doesn't exist for me as content. But let's look to some of the primary features set to come with 2.1.

- More story content.
I believe Yoshi said this would take about 8 hours for people to consume if they don't teleport around a lot and such. I won't argue with this, either, as watching/reading cutscenes was never really a time consuming process. Of this, we'll have Hildebrand stuff and some main plot happenings. This might take me 3 days tops depending on fight requirements and difficulty.
- PvP.
I have zero interest in PvP. This isn't something anyone has yet to successfully change my mind on, either.
- FC Housing.
I've already expressed a lack of interest here. Me being in a small FC is burdensome even if I did. Were I being honest, I'm probably the "richest" of my lot with the highest cash generating potential, too. And, well, my patience has limits when it comes to sitting down to craft a lot.
- Crystal Tower.
This is where I raise a brow at your earlier stance. This isn't Coil, it's not the top-tier content. All those other jobs I have sitting at the 20s I'd feel more inclined to level if I knew they wouldn't be forced to sit in DL for months. Instead, not only do I have to fight RNG and diminishing returns as I potentially complete a set for a job grouping, but there is no "making up" of a missed/unlucky week and I really see no motivation for people to go back just because even if they did get what they wanted out of the week or in general.
- Dailies.
Just more grind. These also begin in the low-40s, which means they're not likely to be difficult. So, probably useless for my BLM, but at the same time, those other jobs will still be met by the collective restrictions imposed by the lockout, myth cap, and so on.
- Dungeons.
They'll be fun a few times, but I have no delusion about people falling back into the path of least resistance while the rewards from these will also be lesser than DL.
- Extreme Primals, Ultima, Mog.
It's just hard to feel excited about reskins, Mog aside. But like dungeons, these will also fall into routine.

I really can't stress it enough that SE is undermining their own armory system with these decisions. I don't expect others to play as much or as efficiently as I might. I still help newbies if I can and explain dungeons if I find someone's new to them. It's not so much that I'm whining about there being nothing for me to do, but rather SE is saying I couldn't do it as much as I'd like. So it winds up artificially creating nothing for me to do and I'm pragmatic enough to realize this means I'll be sitting on my thumbs a lot. And to me, this also establishes a precedent, a statement from SE and Yoshi that they don't really care about players like me who would still like to play, but simply won't because rewards are throttled.

For fun? Well, understand that for some people chasing that carrot is the fun. I don't need a giant FC to socialize with. I don't even need a house to do that. I'd love for there to be more worthwhile things to craft, but there isn't. I want more of an open-world endgame, but there isn't. I'm still sympathetic toward casuals, but at the same time, I feel the game is being a bit two-faced in its promotion of casual content. Looking at statistics only goes far. I'd certainly be curious to see the average size of all FCs with then a breakdown of numbers like 10 members, 25, 50, and so on. Maybe this is just a social thing and the JPs are running around in far larger groups than NAs, but demanding millions largely for vanity purposes... just, no.
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#59 Dec 16 2013 at 6:14 PM Rating: Default
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Seriha I don't beleive you and I have come to a staunch disagreement before, even in our FFXI interactions.

That said, I will take the time to go over each individual point you present and provide my perspective on it, taking extra care that I'm respectful of the stance you provide. Understand, however that I still cannot sympathize with your baseline argument.

I feel that you may well have sold yourself short in this regard with much of the content you simply dismiss. I'll post again later on when I am at home and have the time to fully read over and respond to your concerns.

Edited, Dec 16th 2013 7:18pm by Hyrist
#60 Dec 16 2013 at 6:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyrist wrote:
I mean, what would we do in a situation in which: All of the graphic components and in-game assets for housing is completed, and the basic structure for the Housing mechanics itself was complete, but you in no way had the a capability to, in short notice, expand the instance structure housing for high demand yeild. Do you delay it?

I think we're still feeling the rippling effects of the Launch here. We've got a number of people SE never anticipated and they're still playing catch-up with us, beginning with the most essential system structures first - and unfortunately that's pushing expansion on the Housing servers back. However, instead of sitting on the assets they already completely, they're releasing what they got at exhorbidant prices so if players want to put in the work and dedication for it, they can still get what limited space is available. Those who are wanting to wait on better prices, unfortunately, will have to wait until SE can handle the flood.


If this is what's happening here, and it's entirely plausible, then they should buck up and tell us. "Hey guys, the housing servers aren't quite ready yet. We're going to have to delay the housing a month or two until we can get it in. We're sorry but we're working around the clock to get it done and in the mean time, enjoy all this other content we're providing, and here's the price houses will be so you can be prepared." Then list the actual prices instead of these crazily inflated ones (hypothetically speaking of course).

People would whine and moan about it, but it certainly wouldn't be the uproar that this clusterf*ck has been. Every gaming forum has their boards flooded with this same topic and with a lot of very disappointed and frustrated people. It's not like it's just an issue at the lodestone forums with all of their drama, it's an issue to everyone. Heck, there have already been scathing articles written about it by gaming sites. Clearly it could have been handled better. And just fyi, I'm not arguing with you, I'm just saying if your scenario is true, they really messed up in the handling of it.

Edited, Dec 16th 2013 7:28pm by BartelX
#61 Dec 16 2013 at 7:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
And just fyi, I'm not arguing with you, I'm just saying if your scenario is true, they really messed up in the handling of it.


I completely agree, and it's not the first time they've mishandled a situation regarding not properly handling the popularity they've brought upon themselves. However, last time they also took some time to gather their thoughts on the issue and then respond. Yoshida did say in the live letter that the primary concern in this situation was running out of housing room, and that, while the prices are steep, gil income will increase, and that they'll monitor the situation to adjust prices. So they're aware they're shooting higher than what people have on hand. But what they don't know how quickly people will gather the capital together. They only have the raw data of how much gil is on hand in game.

I have to wonder how quickly they will respond further to all this reaction. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
#62 Dec 16 2013 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
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LebargeX wrote:
At these prices, here are my predictions:

Crafting Workshop upgrade: 100 million.
Airship Docking upgrade: 100 million
Naval Docking upgrade: 100 million
Chocobo Stables upgrade: 75 million.
Gardening Plot upgrade: 25 million.
Private Room: 5 million

I really hope they've got a mutiny on their hands. It would be great to see the player base unite in protest. Unfortunately that's not going to happen. Johnny RMT is going to ruin this and/or a handful of FC's will be able to participate. Maybe the furnishing market will be worthwhile.

Unrelated to housing, I'm also pissed about the giant nerf to Holy. Would have been nice if they limited that to dungeons.


I'm not sure what the prices should be honestly.
Maybe it should be not easy to obtain for some of those things, because we don't know how much gameplay is being built around this.

That crafting shop could be multiplayer huge crafts for large scale persistent PvE or PvP purposes.
That airship dock could be a hangar for large scale PvE or PvP purposes.
That naval dock could be a merchant line between cities. Or a battleship construction site.

If all the content is meant for lower meaning such as personal skins then yeah the prices are sky high.

Someone said that SE isn't taking into account the gil sink with personal crafting, high melds,etc. But that is a cost that the user chooses to sink into that particular content. Yoshi mentioned ranks in PvP.

Should an entry level guy who rarely touches PvP start off with max rank and whatever privileges someone else who sunk all their time and finances into? Hell no, at least not for anything more substantial than arena PvP.

A PvPer chose to sink that into that content so he shouldn't get elite drops or melds with less effort than the guy who dedicates all their resources into those things.

SE should spread the cost out though and not just make it gil. Gathering for construction material, doing FC related things to earn FC credits, etc.

Edited, Dec 16th 2013 8:18pm by sandpark
#63 Dec 16 2013 at 7:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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sandpark wrote:
Should an entry level guy who rarely touches PvP start off with max rank and whatever privileges someone else who sunk all their time and finances into? Hell no, at least not for anything more substantial than arena PvP.

A PvPer chose to sink that into that content so he shouldn't get elite drops or melds with less effort than the guy who dedicates all their resources into those things.


Ugh, I really dislike when people say stuff like "well why don't they just hand you max rank/level/gil/whatever". That's not what anyone wants. People are asking for reasonable prices, aka, a middle ground. It seems like some tend to just think in extremes and if you aren't one extreme you must be the other. Not saying you do, again, I just really don't like this specific thought process of well if you don't want X you must want Y to be handed to you.

Not everything is about entitlement and being given things. Sometimes it's just about asking for a median solution. Something that is still a challenge, but achievable and not an utter and pointless grind.

Also, housing and PvP content aren't really comparable. Right now housing is nothing but vanity and a social hub, yet it is far and away the most time consuming and grindy content in-game. PvP is an entire avenue of gameplay 30-50, complete with gear, ranks, abilities, etc. Right off the bat it's considerably deeper than housing currently, so requiring more time investment is understandable.

I've actually got a new theory that SE actually knows this is way too much money to charge, and will almost immediately come back with numbers that are still high, but not AS high so people will think it's some huge break and then be all happy with SE again, while still forking over vast sums of money for housing. The old reverse bait and switch.

Edited, Dec 16th 2013 9:01pm by BartelX

Edited, Dec 16th 2013 10:46pm by BartelX
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#64 Dec 16 2013 at 8:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've come to think about it a bit.

I think they currently have a problem because they do not have the capacities to handle that many housing instances at the same time.

To reduce the number of instances, they did not allow *personal* housing but only FC housing (which is stupid in the first place).

And in order to make sure not too many FCs are actually able to buy houses, they set the prices astronomically high.

It's like: "Hey guys, we got that promised cool new feature right in time as promised. Unluckily we don't want you to use it right now."
#65 Dec 16 2013 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
I've come to think about it a bit.

I think they currently have a problem because they do not have the capacities to handle that many housing instances at the same time.

To reduce the number of instances, they did not allow *personal* housing but only FC housing (which is stupid in the first place).

And in order to make sure not too many FCs are actually able to buy houses, they set the prices astronomically high.

It's like: "Hey guys, we got that promised cool new feature right in time as promised. Unluckily we don't want you to use it right now."


Well, yeah. This is undoubtedly the real reason. I just wish they were honest about it or delayed it until it was ready. It's fine if a feature isn't ready but don't dangle a dollar in my face with a fishing pole and pull it away when I reach for it.
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#66 Dec 16 2013 at 8:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to apologize ahead of time if this seems disjointed, I'm going to regard each point individually in stages, and this may have me miss the forest for the trees here.

Seriha wrote:

- Leveled BLM to 50 with most other jobs at least 20.
- Leveled all crafting professions to 50.
- Leveled miner and botanist to 50. (Technically just need to spend the leves to do the latter, but that's like an hour of play tops)
- Have +1 Relic for my BLM and hat, body, legs, and feet with other DL or crafted accessories.
- Have completed all story content.
- Have most HQ crafter AF decently melded with materia.

You can call me hardcore if that makes you feel better.


No, I'd just say your time availability is a bit higher than the average. As it is I was able to get 1 Arcanist to level 50 with some subclass leveling as well as take a pre-leveled 50 Dragoon through most the story and GC ranking, as well most crafting classes to 10-15, on top of a fairly rigiours player-made content distraction in the form of Roleplaying and player made events. If I had invested my game solely into gameplay I'd be about where you are with both characters, I think.


Quote:
I'm more likely to put myself in the top 25% of the game's population than the 10% Yoshi alluded to with BC progress. You'll also notice I didn't mention participating in BC, in part because I utterly loathe being forced into scheduling or statics for content. So you could technically say BC doesn't exist for me as content. But let's look to some of the primary features set to come with 2.1.


Ok, I'll take that into consiteration - keep in mind that I will be addressing Coil as well as the average example may not fall in line with your, or my game habits.

Quote:
- More story content.
I believe Yoshi said this would take about 8 hours for people to consume if they don't teleport around a lot and such. I won't argue with this, either, as watching/reading cut-scenes was never really a time consuming process. Of this, we'll have Hildebrand stuff and some main plot happenings. This might take me 3 days tops depending on fight requirements and difficulty.


If we include any situations in which it requires 4 or more players, we may add delay to that content, as you mentioned.

Quote:
- PvP.
I have zero interest in PvP. This isn't something anyone has yet to successfully change my mind on, either.


Yet, it must be asked if you will even attempt it out of curiosity. This is after all Square Enix's attempt at PvP aside from FFXI's Ballista which, for a time, maintained a bit of popularity of its own. I'm actually looking forward to see if they may add objective based matches beyond the simple ones in the future.

Quote:
- FC Housing.
I've already expressed a lack of interest here. Me being in a small FC is burdensome even if I did. Were I being honest, I'm probably the "richest" of my lot with the highest cash generating potential, too. And, well, my patience has limits when it comes to sitting down to craft a lot.

Ditto for the whole crafting issue. However I find myself more interested because I exist on Balmung - which is one of the two Roleplaying Servers in this game for NA/EU, therefore the housing serves as customizable, shareable settings by which player generated content can take place. This heightens the importance of the accessibility in this content, which is what's making me angry about it. Some areas, such as Wineport, are simply too crowded with people to serve as effective RP hubs, and other locales that would be great for roleplaying are instead heavily populated by NPCs.


Quote:
- Crystal Tower.
This is where I raise a brow at your earlier stance. This isn't Coil, it's not the top-tier content. All those other jobs I have sitting at the 20s I'd feel more inclined to level if I knew they wouldn't be forced to sit in DL for months. Instead, not only do I have to fight RNG and diminishing returns as I potentially complete a set for a job grouping, but there is no "making up" of a missed/unlucky week and I really see no motivation for people to go back just because even if they did get what they wanted out of the week or in general.


This is where our viewpoint differs primarily. The main focus of contention when it comes to Crystal Tower is loot lockout on equipment. But absolutely no discussion has been made as to other forms of reward that may exist within this instance. Something as simple as high gil yield or currency drops may be enough for many groups to return to aid allies in getting their weekly drop.

As far as bemoaning success rates for drops and your diminishing returns, this is where the armory comes in, and I will touch on this again later as you mention the Armory and the design of lock-outs.

Quote:
- Dailies.
Just more grind. These also begin in the low-40s, which means they're not likely to be difficult. So, probably useless for my BLM, but at the same time, those other jobs will still be met by the collective restrictions imposed by the lockout, myth cap, and so on.

In the Live letter, it was illustrated that there were multiple available Beastmen to talk to with various difficulties of quest. Unless they attached level of fame to the level of content, you're likely able to just do the level 50 dailies if you wish, with your BLM.

Also, I'll contest the fact you dismiss this content as just a grind as it also has been stated that the Beastmen content also contains story elements relevant to the Beastmen and their own lore. Coil is a grind, Crystal Tower, is a grind, Leveling is a grind, quests are a grind. The term 'grind' is a scapegoat to express personal disinterest in repeatable or mandatory content. I, myself, am excited for more casual content and the opportunity to learn more about the Beastmen. Additionally it is another alternative to doing Dungeons for Tomes, which honestly, is a vast improvement being overlooked here.

Quote:
- Dungeons.
They'll be fun a few times, but I have no delusion about people falling back into the path of least resistance while the rewards from these will also be lesser than DL.

Given the issue with FC housing, alternative drops such as Gil and Tomes will also start to become factors for desirability on Dungeons. Not to mention, Duty Roulette, tied to strong rewards, such as bonus Tomes will likely enforce usage of more than just your path of least resistance, especially those who do not have statics to be grinding WC in.

Quote:
- Extreme Primals, Ultima, Mog.
It's just hard to feel excited about reskins, Mog aside. But like dungeons, these will also fall into routine.


I would have to ask myself what sort of reaction this statment would garner if it was spoke about Raven Nevermore, which was effectively, just a reskin of the story quest "To Kill a Raven."

I wonder how many insulted the instance on that grounds.

Challenge modes have been a Enix staple since before the merger. Harder versions of famous fights or re-imaginings of previously used assets, is absolutely nothing new, especially to us FFXI veterans. After all, one may complain that Dynamis Lord is just a reskin of Shadow Lord - lets not even mention Fait Lux or Abyssea. Goodness knows, we easy, hard and extreme of Summon battles there too.

I suggest you judge your excitement on the battles themselves, rather than the fact that they feature used assets or similar battlefield circumstances.


In summary in this section: Everything done ad-nausea will be boring. Coil would be far more if done more often, which then would almost guaranteed to have less drop rates in return. What Yoshida and crew have created here, is a game that enforces its diversity for the sake of preventing burnout. Sure, doing WP 15 times a week is going to get really repetitious. But that's why you can gain tomes through Roulette and other sources now. Is it a grind? Sure, if you don't like it. But it is a far wider of a grounds to play in, and you do not need to do it that way if you prefer simply pushing WP and only WP.





Quote:
I really can't stress it enough that SE is undermining their own armory system with these decisions.


This is where I disagree, heavily, with the commonly spoken talking points. The lockouts, especially the Crystal Tower Lockouts do not undermine the Amory system. It in fact accentuates it by making you value every drop provided, and giving you the capacity to make use of it.

You mentioned before that inevitably you will come across decreasing returns on your primarily desired gear, and that this will become an issue if your desired drop does not show towards the end of the week. The genius of the system starts to show itself once this problem begins to manifest as you will become tempted to settle on drops other than your primary desire, which will in turn encourage you to gear and play other classes. The increasing locks with increased gear level in turn forces you to look at loot from a graduating perspective, not a specialization perspective. Granted you will still want to prioritize the Jobs that you are most comfortable playing, but inevitable you and your allies will encounter the efficiency of upgrading gear of your secondary and tertiary jobs as the gear becomes available.

You will be tempted not to let that piece hit the floor, because it may be another several weeks before you see it when you decide upon yourself to level and gear that class. And in turn, having that piece will tempt you to work on that class to make it available.

And this is where the diversity of endgame starts to break apart the lockouts. Tomes provide a dependable source of planned gear, starting with Darklight then moving, in graduation, to Myth, in which, as drops start to distribute among your available jobs, will be able to serve as a gap-filler and intended upgrade between the two primary endgame Raids.

Meanwhile accessories and an alternative path to stronger weapons is provide through the Challenge Mode fights (Extremes and Minstrel's Melodies).

In the end it will be a situation where someone who missed his coil static as a Damage Dealer one day, may be able to make it up as a Tank with a group needing one later on that week. Or someone who is hard on luck in Crystal Tower will find an item they can use for their Monk dropped while the other Monk attending in that party did not need it.

Does it slow vertical progress? Absolutely! And that's frustrating - about as frustrating as a drop-rate so low that you would have to play the game obsessively even to have a chance to get the item within a year or two of religious trying (Hello Duelists Chapeau.) It's just a method of going at the delay a different way, one that isn't punishing to those who do not or no longer have the time to play a game with disheartening low drop-rates, and enforces a hierarchy that causes the majority of players to feel worthless and quit.

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I don't expect others to play as much or as efficiently as I might. I still help newbies if I can and explain dungeons if I find someone's new to them. It's not so much that I'm whining about there being nothing for me to do, but rather SE is saying I couldn't do it as much as I'd like. So it winds up artificially creating nothing for me to do and I'm pragmatic enough to realize this means I'll be sitting on my thumbs a lot. And to me, this also establishes a precedent, a statement from SE and Yoshi that they don't really care about players like me who would still like to play, but simply won't because rewards are throttled.


Let's speak honestly. We're veterans of MMOs. We know the rewards were always throttled. In this way, we are not discouraged from enjoying the casual elements of the game because the content is throttled not on RNG availability that throttles drops, but instead on an admittedly more transparent, yet more user friendly, trottling system.

In the end they (Being MMO designers) were always saying "If you want this, you have to wait and work for it." At least now they are giving you the ability to explore other content during the more nakedly enforced waiting period.

In my opinion, this is afar more honest approach, that actually states they do care. They care enough not to waste your time with the illusion, and instead try to give you more breath to play around with. You may be sitting on your thumbs, and thats going to continue for a lot of people until more content comes out. But taht is due to disinterest in what they are providing, and the limit to what they can provide with only so much development time.

They're going to throttle endgame, they always have. That's how they keep you here. But instead of saying you must only play endgame exclusively to progress in endgame, they're offering the rest of their game to entertain you while you push against the throttling, and at the same time opening up the door to others who do not or cannot play as religiously. Telling them they can play and progress without sacrificing their outside lives or feeling beset upon by the 'hardcore' community.

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Well, understand that for some people chasing that carrot is the fun. I don't need a giant FC to socialize with. I don't even need a house to do that. I'd love for there to be more worthwhile things to craft, but there isn't. I want more of an open-world endgame, but there isn't. I'm still sympathetic toward casuals, but at the same time, I feel the game is being a bit two-faced in its promotion of casual content. Looking at statistics only goes far. I'd certainly be curious to see the average size of all FCs with then a breakdown of numbers like 10 members, 25, 50, and so on. Maybe this is just a social thing and the JPs are running around in far larger groups than NAs, but demanding millions largely for vanity purposes... just, no.


I don't like what they did with Housing, but as I've always said, MMO's reward the patient, so that's what I'll be with that issue.

But as the matter of lock-outs are concerned. They're going to be less and less impaction as the game progresses and diversifies. It was sky and Dynamis before it was Sea, Sky Dynamis, and Limbus- then Salvage was added, and so forth. Endgame will flush out and its players will have plenty to do. The way things look, progress will be more staggered lateral than vertical linear. And like every other twist in endgame between MMO to MMO, players will adapt, and the game will adapt as well.

So no, I don't have sympathy for those crying Wolf on lockouts that they may very well become thankful for as Endgame Diversifies, and that Casual audience will most defiantly be thankful for as they start gearing and realize they're not impossibly far behind. It's going to take time for things to sort out, and we're going to lose people, and gain some too. But SE is laying the ground work for the long term game here where people can do their endgame duties and then enjoy other parts of the game without feeling perpetually locked down or behind. The sacrifice made for that enviroment is a more naked version of the slow down on progression that has been there all along.
#67 Dec 16 2013 at 8:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gnu wrote:
I sit at around 10k. Then I make some money, say 50k, then I go gear up some off-class. Back to 10k.

I just don't enjoy crafting or gathering all that much. There I said it. I did at one point but then I got bored with it. That is the route to making Gil though, as well as understanding the market and spending time at the AH board. Nah, I'll just keep doing what I enjoy instead.

So my FC wants to get a house and they will ask, "Gnu you have anything to contribute?" and I'm going to be like, "Not really, sorry. ><" This is the first time my personal play style is going to be a detriment to my FC. I guess we need a new level of promotions in our FC, "House Owners" or something, which I won't be part of.

Really though, the profits for RMT just shot through the roof. Anyone watch prices on Gil? I don't, but I can guess they just skyrocketed. Yoshi has just made Gil selling/buying a critical part of being a high-end player in FFXIV.

FC housing should have been bought with FC participation/rank credits. And that's all there is to it.




Absolutely this. It's FC housing for god sakes... why not use the credits that each FC member unconsciously accumulates on a daily basis? This is the way it should be, whereas personal housing (whenever that comes out) can be bought with gil.

Someone on this thread (Forgot who, dont wanna read the walls of text again) said that SE basically handed RMTs a golden ticket by doing this. Truer words were never spoken. I'll wager RMTs the world over are crying tears of joy as we speak in anticipation of their incoming payday =\
#68 Dec 16 2013 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Give FC housing away and just base the lot sizes on the number of active players in the FC. I'm amazed at how effortlessly SE continues to muck up the easy, common sense stuff Smiley: oyvey
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#69 Dec 16 2013 at 11:31 PM Rating: Excellent
Swiftskye wrote:
Gnu wrote:
I sit at around 10k. Then I make some money, say 50k, then I go gear up some off-class. Back to 10k.

I just don't enjoy crafting or gathering all that much. There I said it. I did at one point but then I got bored with it. That is the route to making Gil though, as well as understanding the market and spending time at the AH board. Nah, I'll just keep doing what I enjoy instead.

So my FC wants to get a house and they will ask, "Gnu you have anything to contribute?" and I'm going to be like, "Not really, sorry. ><" This is the first time my personal play style is going to be a detriment to my FC. I guess we need a new level of promotions in our FC, "House Owners" or something, which I won't be part of.

Really though, the profits for RMT just shot through the roof. Anyone watch prices on Gil? I don't, but I can guess they just skyrocketed. Yoshi has just made Gil selling/buying a critical part of being a high-end player in FFXIV.

FC housing should have been bought with FC participation/rank credits. And that's all there is to it.




Absolutely this. It's FC housing for god sakes... why not use the credits that each FC member unconsciously accumulates on a daily basis? This is the way it should be, whereas personal housing (whenever that comes out) can be bought with gil.

Someone on this thread (Forgot who, dont wanna read the walls of text again) said that SE basically handed RMTs a golden ticket by doing this. Truer words were never spoken. I'll wager RMTs the world over are crying tears of joy as we speak in anticipation of their incoming payday =\


That was me. It's impossible that they don't see the RMT sh@$storm this is going whip up. I posted in the other housing thread that housing should be deeded to an FC by it's allied GC. Every plot starts the same size and is increased in size by all members doing GC missions so all members are responsible for FC advancement. Basically the lord/holder feudal system. Add a tithe system to make it a gil sink. Keeps RMT out of the equation and gives all FCs great and small a chance to participate. Honestly, I'm of the opinion that they just don't have the juice to run housing so they set it out of reach for now.
#70 Dec 16 2013 at 11:47 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
In the end they (Being MMO designers) were always saying "If you want this, you have to wait and work for it." At least now they are giving you the ability to explore other content during the more nakedly enforced waiting period.

There's more "waiting" than "working" going on here, which is part of the problem.

I bemoan how this affects the armory system for one very simple reason: These lockouts can be avoided if you level another character or more. For efficiency's sake, you could have "tank character" for WAR/PLD, a "healer character" for WHM/SCH, a "magic damage character" for BLM/SMN, a "physical damage character" with MNK/DRG, and a "ranged damage character" with BRD. Understandably, I wouldn't expect people to take up 5 alts. That's running through all the story hoops 5x over, nevermind leveling some jobs more than once for sub purposes. Is that great for SE in the "stringing us along" context the sub model thrives on? Sure. **** move to players? I say yes. Which brings us full circle to why even letting us level all in one and puts pressure on us to make sure our friends know our alts.

Meanwhile, while I can mechanically understand the purpose of reskins as a means to save artistic resources, I can't be alone in feeling this is perhaps too much too soon. Instead of the Extremes, could we have had Leviathan and Shiva by now? Actually, weren't we promised new jobs with patches and not just expansions? Surely they have at least one done by now? Which reminds me, the more they do expand job selection, the more damning the CT lockout and systems like it becomes. Especially since a Hybrid role is likely going to demand yet another gear classification beyond the 5 pairings I listed earlier.

So, under perfect conditions, I need 5 weeks to get a new job to i80 status. Not because I couldn't beat CT or whatever, but just because SE wants to slap my wrist and say no. This could mean 5 CT runs. It could mean 50. There's still RNG involved on top of the time gating. There's nothing "beautiful" about maybe getting some leftovers when you're forced to settle for some kind of drop. And really, getting such leftovers would happen anyway. We'll still be seeing situations where most blitz on Monday to do their stuff for the week and then have nothing to do, again because SE says no. You certainly can't wag your finger at these people saying they played too much or too quickly at this point. And what you attempt to espouse as variety is ultimately an illusion. I hate level caps. I do not want to gimp my character to revisit old content. It defeats the purpose of acquiring that high-end gear and strips us of abilities we do acquire via our leveling, essentially stripping us of class variety. I know I've said this in numerous thread here, but content has a life span. For everyone. It may not be the same, but things still "die" eventually.

For some, since there is nothing tangible they can perceive of 2.1 content and its restrictions, it is already "dead" to them. That's not good for business at all. Heck, I forgot to mention Treasure Hunting in my last post. WHY is there an 18 hour lockout? I'll be sincerely surprised if even the T5 stuff competes with pre-DL gear. So, what keeps people hooked after the novelty wears? That's what I worry about. Saying it another way, perhaps the stick connected to the carrot is too long. It's not instant gratification. It's not lacking patience. It's "work" being capped and casuals erroneously believe this benefits them. Much as I hate to say it, it seems like you've fallen into that trap. So, maybe Yoshi's okay losing 10-25% of his population in a worst case scenario with this. I wouldn't be, but maybe that's my habit of trying to make content inclusive biting me.
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#71 Dec 17 2013 at 12:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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I only skimmed through the posts, but I'm replying to the one above me:

Do you suppose they put on these caps to encourage players to do more than just one thing?

I think we are making it a bigger deal than it needs to be. Let's experience it first and see what happens. If it's really that bad, they will most likely change it, because chances are they are waiting to see how it goes too.

Same goes for the housing thing.

Edited, Dec 17th 2013 1:19am by Stilivan
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#72 Dec 17 2013 at 1:35 AM Rating: Good
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True variety is only really achieved when there's no superior source of loot. If SE said we could buy CT gear with philosophy tomes at, say, 1.75x the cost of its respective DL piece alongside the straight locked drop, I don't think you'd see too many unhappy people since they could run the old dungeons, the new ones, or even CT for philos and still progress to the i80 tier at their own pace. Granted, I could also see a cost reduction to DL because of this sentiment. Right now, SE's determining the pace, which as I've said before, doesn't care if you can't play for a week or two. You lose potential drops because the system is deliberately designed that way, and basically why it's not casual friendly, to which I ultimately define as being able to play when you're able and still feel like you're progressing.

I occasionally see people trying to mask the issue with comparisons to other things, like BC's system or older games like XI and its event lockouts with heavy RNG influence. Arguing which is the better of two evils isn't really to the player's benefit and I will continually pressure any dev that takes our money to strive and make the most content possible for everyone instead of stringing us along. Dev complacency and people who defend it is one of the reasons MMOs tend to suffer from stagnation. "That's just how things are!" isn't what leads us to better games, just the same old games. Do I am too high? Perhaps. Yet I also know XIV has exceeded SE's expectations nearly thrice over. To what degree of added investment does that justify, or are we to just smile and let them enjoy windfall profit? That's not me, but perhaps with anything I get invested in, I tend to care a bit too much.
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#73 Dec 17 2013 at 3:23 AM Rating: Default
Seriha wrote:
True variety is only really achieved when there's no superior source of loot. If SE said we could buy CT gear with philosophy tomes at, say, 1.75x the cost of its respective DL piece alongside the straight locked drop, I don't think you'd see too many unhappy people since they could run the old dungeons, the new ones, or even CT for philos and still progress to the i80 tier at their own pace. Granted, I could also see a cost reduction to DL because of this sentiment. Right now, SE's determining the pace, which as I've said before, doesn't care if you can't play for a week or two. You lose potential drops because the system is deliberately designed that way, and basically why it's not casual friendly, to which I ultimately define as being able to play when you're able and still feel like you're progressing.


Are you taking into consideration that when ultimately every single person is ever going to obtain one piece per week at most, it gives SE the opportunity to make sure that players actually obtain said piece of loot by ex. making drop rates high, as well as giving groups more loot per run.

In your scenario the added multiplier to philosophy tomes is cancelled by the fact that you can get the same piece of gear from CT as well. If SE wants to keep the acquisition rate at one piece per week they must adjust the content accordingly. What this means in the end is that the CT drop rate x tomes needed must equal one CT piece per week on average. At the end of the day if you are guaranteed a piece of CT gear every two weeks by using tomes that means you must go on average two weeks to obtain a piece in the tower too for the equation to hold.

It's even worse when the fact is that hardcore population can overcome the drop rates by continuously running CT over and over again, in which case the result is unless SE lowers the drop rates drastically the hc population will be breaking the equation of one piece a week on average.

Essentially people are forced to cap their tomes as well as run CT with lower drop rates to gain similar outcome you get by just running CT now. If you don¨t play for a week or two you will still be behind everyone else since you'd lose two weeks' worth of tomes too.

EDIT: Of course I forgot the ilvl70 crafted gear completely. You can rather easily make them into the equivalent of an ilvl80 piece using HQ + materia melding. Prices are lower than ever and you can buy the mats using tomes (that have had their costs reduced in 2.1 as far as I'm aware).

Edited, Dec 17th 2013 12:49pm by Hyanmen
#74 Dec 17 2013 at 3:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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I wouldn't be so bothered by it if they hadn't frozen all those 8M gil + accounts near the start of the game. I ended up cutting all gil grinding believing 4M would be enough at that point (and ended up paying so many people to become lalafells cause <3 lala)
#75 Dec 17 2013 at 7:03 AM Rating: Good
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Posting this here, was posted on the OF:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/127656-An-Open-Letter-to-Yoshida-san-Please-Slice-One-Zero-Off-the-Housing-Prices?p=1685344#post1685344
Yoshi-P wrote:

Regarding Housing Price

This is FFXIV: ARR Producer/Director Naoki Yoshida. First of all, allow me to express my thanks to all of you who have offered feedback on the matter of housing prices. Needless to say, I have been following the discussion very closely.

In this post, I would like to clarify our fundamental stance toward housing prices, and offer a better picture of how players can expect prices to fall in the near future.
(My apologies in advance if this post gets a bit wordy.)

Fundamental Pricing Stance

Our fundamental stance toward housing prices was that we wanted to ensure that plots would be evenly distributed, avoiding a situation in which the wealthiest players could easily buy up all available plots of land. Please understand that while we will be adding servers and expanding housing areas as soon as we can, it is simply physically impossible for us to accomplish this easily, in a matter of one or two weeks.

If the initial price of land was easily within the means of wealthy players, one can envision all available plots of land being snatched up immediately, leaving other players—even those possessing the necessary gil—unable to purchase land for an extended period of time. Seeking to avoid this, we made the difficult decision to go forward with the pricing scheme we presented, aware that many players would be unable to afford housing for a while.

Eorzean Economy Review

Before determining the initial (or maximum) prices for land, we conducted an extensive survey of the Eorzean economy across multiple Worlds, including:

  • The total amount of gil possessed by all players
  • The total amount of gil possessed by all active players on each World
  • The number of active free companies and members on each World
  • The total amount of gil owned by all active players belonging to each free company on all Worlds
  • The amount of gil entering the economy and circulating in the market on a given day in each World
  • Distribution of the above (X% belonging to the most wealthy, Y% belonging to the middle class, Z% to the less wealthy, etc.)


Needless to say, RMT traders are served with immediate bans and their gil removed from circulation, so these figures are not included in the above. In addition, to account for gil generated by RMT abuses that might still be in circulation, an additional 10% or so was subtracted from the figures we arrived at.

What we realized from this survey was that the wealthiest players in each world had at their disposal an amount of gil that was considerably higher than one would imagine. In each legacy World, there are more than ten players in possession of over one hundred million gil. Even in non-legacy Worlds, there are a significant number of players with several million gil.

The Future Price of Housing

In conducting this survey, we created a forecast for gil distribution in the three-month period following the release of patch 2.1. In doing so, we anticipated that:

  • Players will be seeking to earn more gil than they have thus far, and
  • The overall amount of gil generated each day will be higher (in fact, considerably higher) with the release of patch 2.1


...and adjusted our forecast accordingly.

The results of this forecast, with the necessary adjustments for differences between the various Worlds, formed the basis for the depreciated "XX Days Later" prices presented in the patch notes.

With this pricing scheme, we sought a balance in which roughly 80% of all existing free companies will be able to purchase at least a small-sized plot in three months’ time.

I understand that, in taking these measures to ensure even distribution of land, we are asking for considerable patience from those players who are eager to enjoy housing right away. While I sympathize with players concerns, we believe that this is in the best long-term interests of the game.

The Regulation of Starting and Final Prices

As mentioned within the patch notes, we will closely monitor land purchases, and consider revising prices as necessary according to World population and economy. Please keep in mind that prices will decrease every six hours from the opening of the servers, and will continue to drop even during maintenance. Furthermore, plots of land released in the future will never be more expensive.

Legacy World Price Adjustments

Due to the prodigious amount of gil in circulation in legacy Worlds, we regret that current housing prices may be prohibitive to the following players:
  • Those new to the game who started on legacy Worlds
  • Those returning to a legacy World after taking an extended break
  • Those on a legacy World who have been unable to save gil


Upon considering the feedback we have received since the release of the patch notes, we have decided to make the following adjustments:
  • Land prices will start at the figures indicated in the patch notes
  • From January 2014, devaluation will be adjusted every two weeks
  • After three months, final land prices will match those of World Group 3


* World Group 3 (third listed in the patch notes)
Bahamut / Behemoth / Cactuar / Carbuncle / Chocobo / Diabolos / Fenrir / Garuda / Gilgamesh / Ifrit / Leviathan / Mandragora / Midgardsormr / Odin / Ramuh / Shiva / Siren / Tiamat / Titan / Tonberry / Ultros

Although this takes place over the course of three months, land prices in legacy Worlds will eventually fall to match those of World Group 3. In the event that pricing changes are made to this group, the same will be applied to legacy Worlds.

By adjusting devaluation at set intervals rather than in one go, we hope to prevent a sudden rash of purchases.

The introduction of housing will help to unify the perceived value of gil in each individual World. Furthermore, it has presented an opportunity for us to consider the lifting of restrictions on transfers between between legacy and non-legacy Worlds.

Personal Housing

While I cannot give a specific date on when personal housing will be implemented, I can say that prices will be completely separate from free company housing, and, naturally, far more affordable.

In Summary
  • The final price of land on all Worlds is subject to adjustments, and may fall lower
  • Over the course of three months, prices on legacy Worlds will fall to match those of World Group 3
  • Personal housing will be far more affordable than free company housing


We realize that these measures will not immediately satisfy all players, especially those on legacy Worlds who are either new to the game or returning from extended absences. We ask for your patience and understanding as we strive to create a balanced housing system.


Edited, Dec 17th 2013 8:07am by Szabo
#76 Dec 17 2013 at 7:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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More than 10 players on each legacy world with over 100million gil.... so that must mean it's attainable for everyone!

Hurry up and wait is what this all boils down too... ugh
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