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Patch 2.16 (Feb. 22nd) and Patch 2.2 SummaryFollow

#52 Feb 20 2014 at 10:47 AM Rating: Excellent
Duo wrote:
Pankration - Treasures of Aht Urghan
Limbus - Chains of Promathia
Dynamis - Rise of the Zilart
Salvage - Treasures of Aht Urghan
Assault - Treasures of Aht Urghan
Besieged - Treasures of Aht Urghan
Einherjar - Treasures of Aht Urghan
Voidwatch - Wings of the Goddess
Abyssea - Abyssea mini expansions


All but one of those things you just listed were added via expansions. Dynamis (and {sky}) were the only endgame events you could do with vanilla FFXI/RotZ.

Let's also not forget that Pankeymon died a quick death because it was poorly implemented and not actually any fun.

Edited, Feb 20th 2014 11:52am by Catwho
#53 Feb 20 2014 at 11:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
Duo wrote:
Pankration - Treasures of Aht Urghan
Limbus - Chains of Promathia
Dynamis - Rise of the Zilart
Salvage - Treasures of Aht Urghan
Assault - Treasures of Aht Urghan
Besieged - Treasures of Aht Urghan
Einherjar - Treasures of Aht Urghan
Voidwatch - Wings of the Goddess
Abyssea - Abyssea mini expansions

All but one of those things you just listed were added via expansions. Dynamis (and {sky}) were the only endgame events you could do with vanilla FFXI/RotZ.

Let's also not forget that Pankeymon died a quick death because it was poorly implemented and not actually any fun.

Edited, Feb 20th 2014 11:52am by Catwho

I could have sworn a list like this came up a couple of months ago when someone complained XIV paled in comparison to XI in content. I don't remember if it was Duo back then or someone else who also ignored the fact that they listed a ton of expansion content.

Also, there's a fine line between "new" content and "kinda new content". If you take the list above, you can basically lump Limbus, Dynamis, Salvage, Assault, Einherjar and Voidwatch together as "enter an instance, beat the instance, get loot" content. The main difference between them is varying loot systems. XIV is still pretty new, so you wouldn't expect a half dozen different loot systems. It also relies less on players getting side-grades for gear, which is partly what allowed XI to have so many different loot systems (because there was so much different loot).

There were some other differences between them with fight mechanics and objectives. Assault was really the only one that featured unusual objectives for a few cases. But it was still mostly "kill stuff" based objectives.
#54DuoMaxwellxx, Posted: Feb 20 2014 at 11:12 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) well yeah if you get to the bare bones basics then all those things are VERY similar... i mean Limbus could be called a small scale dynamis whereas salvage is basically limbus with gear/JA restrictions that need to be unlocked as you progress... so if you look it at that way then yeah theres ALL "kinda new content" but at least im doing something DIFFERENT. which is what Im getting at.
#55 Feb 20 2014 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
And it took how many years for them to release the first infusion of that different content? (Answer: At least two and a half years.) Limbus wasn't even immediately released with CoP - took em like six months to add it after the expansion came out, and that was the SECOND expansion.

With Coil and Labyrinth of the Ancients, we already have twice as much "different" endgame content than XI did prior to the second expansion. (Garrison was available with vanilla XI but was not endgame content.)

Edited, Feb 20th 2014 12:59pm by Catwho
#56DuoMaxwellxx, Posted: Feb 20 2014 at 12:09 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) youre right it took two and a half years however US got the game 2 years late so we didnt have to "suffer" when we got the game it was at a raised lvl cap one expansion in and we only waited 2 months (as opposed to 2 and a half years) for limbus sooooooo yeah
#57 Feb 20 2014 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
well yeah if you get to the bare bones basics then all those things are VERY similar... i mean Limbus could be called a small scale dynamis whereas salvage is basically limbus with gear/JA restrictions that need to be unlocked as you progress... so if you look it at that way then yeah theres ALL "kinda new content" but at least im doing something DIFFERENT. which is what Im getting at.

And Haukke Manor HM is a little different than CopperBell HM, which is a little bit different than Pharos Sirius. And all 3 are a little bit different than Crystal Tower. That's what I'm getting at.
#58 Feb 20 2014 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
svlyons wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
well yeah if you get to the bare bones basics then all those things are VERY similar... i mean Limbus could be called a small scale dynamis whereas salvage is basically limbus with gear/JA restrictions that need to be unlocked as you progress... so if you look it at that way then yeah theres ALL "kinda new content" but at least im doing something DIFFERENT. which is what Im getting at.

And Haukke Manor HM is a little different than CopperBell HM, which is a little bit different than Pharos Sirius. And all 3 are a little bit different than Crystal Tower. That's what I'm getting at.


But they do not have NEW and INNOVATIVE names and meaningless gimmicks which is why they are totally not different to each other.

Everything would be DIFFERENT if Haukke Manor HM was part of the Scythian System where you collect Imperial Gold Saucers to exchange for gear. While Copperbell HM was part of Quetzalcoatl Abyssus System which you can access by collecting Guildleve Assault Tokens. Crystal Tower would be the Omnibus System where you collect Omnibus Memories to finally access The Chamber of Lotus where you fight a mob like in every content ever.

/sarcasm

Edited, Feb 20th 2014 10:08pm by Hyanmen
#59 Feb 20 2014 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent
Assault was also not really endgame content - to get the maximum points you had to go in at level cap, which could be as low as level 50.

We actually do have a direct analog to Assaults, in that respect. Guildhests. Same concept. Small group, level capped content in which you have to complete a unique objective. There were 50 different assaults available, although they were not all released at once.

As for that, I think they could do a lot more with Guildhests. Many assaults did not involve fighting monsters. (While there were monsters inside them, half the time the goal was to avoid getting into fights...) Hopefully when they go to start adding in new guildhests, we'll see more variety of objectives than Killing XYZ monsters. In Assaults, you had to:
- Light lamps, often in a certain order (recycled in Nyzul Isle) while evading dragons
- Match breeding pairs of Apkallus
- Break out prisoners, sometimes by forcing monsters to use a special move in the direction of a wooden gate to burn it down
- Escort NPCs through mazes
- Open treasure chests (which were often traps)

I think there is plenty of room for growth withing the guildhest system, without actually adding in an entire new form of content delivery.
#60 Feb 20 2014 at 1:53 PM Rating: Default
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You can argue all you want about it and compare FFXI to FFXIV but if people are not happy with the amount of content or end game content they will find something else to do outside the game. I see it already in my FC where there are fewer people on and a lot are on less time when they are on. This is a monthly subscription game and you need to have things to do or people wont play or pay. Really dont matter when FFXI had content there are more mmos and other gaming options out there now. Problem is when someone quits it is hard to get them back so you are better off keeping them. People can only level so many jobs before it gets boring. You need new exciting content that aint the same as what was before it. I mean who cares when FFXI came out with there first expansion, maybe if it was out sooner they would have had more players etc.

My only point is you better have new content and content to keep people busy out by the time the majority of the people get bored.



Edited, Feb 20th 2014 2:55pm by Nashred
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#61 Feb 20 2014 at 2:06 PM Rating: Excellent
The argument that Duo was making was that FFXI released in NA with the first expansion already released, so the impatient NA players never actually played true vanilla FFXI.

No one is saying that XIV doesn't need to release more content or else people will quit. That is an absolute fact.
#62 Feb 20 2014 at 2:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

First off its not about new content its about DIVERSE new content. Since my definition of DIVERSE new content is odd.. Ill clarify... what I consider DIVERSE new content would be like:

Pankration
Limbus
Dynamis
Salvage
Assault
Besieged
Einherjar
Voidwatch
Abyssea

etc etc

What i would NOT consider DIVERSE new content is:

New dynamis areas
new floors/wings unlcoked in Einherjar
new animals to catch for Pankration
new Assaults added

stuff like that. With FFXIV we seem to be getting more of the stuff id NOT consider DIVERSE new content" than the stuff I would consider DIVERSE new content.

that clear things up for you?


Game's been out for what, 7 months or so? FFXI's been out since 2002. Twelve years versus 7 months.

Brief FFXI timeline for your perousal...

- May 16, 2002: PS2 ver. released.
- Aug 8, 2002: Rank 5 Missions (including the Shadow Lord fight) were implemented, but with the level cap at 50, no one had beaten it.
- Sep 12, 2002: The level cap is raised to 55. High Level Notorious Monsters, such as Behemoth, are added to their respective areas.
- Nov 7, 2002: PC ver. released.
- Nov 26, 2002: Level cap raised to 60.
- Apr 15, 2003: Rise of Zilart preparation update. The level cap now became 65.
- Apr 17, 2003: Rise of the Zilart goes on sale.
- May 16, 2003: Final Fantasy XI Completes 1 Year of Service
- Jul 17, 2003: The level cap became 70. A new region, Tu’Lia, was unlocked. New HNMs were added (such as King Behemoth).
- Oct 21, 2003: Rank 9 and 10 missions were added to the three nations, completing their storylines. The conclusion to Rise of Zilart was also added. Players could now enter the Shrine of Ru’Avitau and The Celestial Nexus.
- Oct 28, 2003: North American PC ver. released.
- Dec 16, 2003: The level cap became 75.

The equivalent of seven months there is end of December 2002. U.S.A didn't even have the game seven months in. Couldn't even complete the main storyline within the first year... You should consider yourself lucky.

Edited, Feb 20th 2014 2:34pm by Valkayree
#63 Feb 20 2014 at 3:39 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
The equivalent of seven months there is end of December 2002. U.S.A didn't even have the game seven months in. Couldn't even complete the main storyline within the first year... You should consider yourself lucky.


I feel like what we need is some kind of graph that illustrates actual content added to XI and XIV along with a line showing the gaming community's rising sense of entitlement.

Edited, Feb 20th 2014 1:39pm by Thayos
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#64 Feb 20 2014 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
Pop in WoW, SWTOR, League of Legends, GW2, and the original Everquest as well.

Actually, EQ1 will win in terms of total content, but I suspect the release pacing in the beginning wasn't significantly faster than any other game on that chart.
#65Theonehio, Posted: Feb 20 2014 at 4:12 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) And someone mentioned that XIV updates faster than any other MMO on the market....I guess applauding SE for every quality of life change rather than content expansion would lead to that confusion lol.
#66 Feb 20 2014 at 4:23 PM Rating: Excellent
In the grand scheme of things, ARR isn't even out of its egg yet.

In the interview about possibly dropping ps3 support someday (see other thread), Yoshi-P talks of having a FATE where players ride on dragons, swooping down to attack monsters.

I don't think you need to worry about a lack of exciting content... especially considering how much endgame we've been given in such a short amount of time (which is even more awesome considering how server issues pushed the development schedule back nearly two months).

Quote:
Think that's the main reason people bring up XI even though it has age to back it up, because the content itself wasn't designed to be thrown away after one use with or without low drop rate.


One of my favorite hikes in the world is Half Dome, one of the iconic rock formations at Yosemite National Park. On the very edge of Half Dome is this flat slab of rock that juts out into the abyss... hikers called this the "Diving Board." I was determined to get out on the diving board, and the first time I climbed Half Dome, I did! Got down on my stomach, edged onto that slab and looked down over the edge...

I'm absolutely glad to have ventured out onto the Diving Board... and I never, ever, ever want to do it again.

That's how I feel about Final Fantasy XI, and I don't think I'm alone in that.

The content of FFXI only took so long to get through because of the grinding, low drop rates, lack of a token system and logistical complexities. Oh, and class favoritism. The other big crutch for FFXI's content was gear swapping. If gear swapping were removed from that game, then there would have been far fewer shinies to chase, and nobody would have tortured themselves by wasting so many hours in sky, dynamis, etc.

I've never played WoW, and I never will... but I can honestly say, I'm thankful for what WoW did for the MMORPG genre. Sometimes, the old school player in me does bristle at how easy certain things seem to be... but the old EQ model of content grinding was just an absurd waste of time.

Edited, Feb 20th 2014 2:31pm by Thayos
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#67 Feb 20 2014 at 4:30 PM Rating: Default
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even with vanilla ffxi theres still one thing it had over xiv. sure it didnt have much at lauch either however when xi hit US the exp was changed to make 1-75 shorter and getting to 50 was considered "halfway" there now it took me 12 months to hit 75 in xi. so vanlla would mean 6 months to 50 (probably 8 since vanlla tnl was higher) so in vanilla it woulda taken me 6 months to even REACH endgame (as opposed to blazing to it in a week) by that time mor stuff had been added, also the content would be difficult enough and have lock outs or drop rates that by the time i 100% the whole content more months would have passed and id have new content wating for me as opposed to getting to a point where ive inished endgame and now you have to wait for new content instead of it already being there waiting for you.

now youll say well play something else until the new stuff hits. while that makes sense, i would accept that from an f2p game after all you get what you pay for. with a game i have to pay monthly for it should provide me with a reason or incentive to use it EVERY day just like ffxi or every other bill i pay i.e electricty, internet, cable carnote, rent, water, heating/cooling, phone, etc etc cant go a day without using either of those.
#68 Feb 20 2014 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
(as opposed to blazing to it in a week)


It was your choice to blaze through all the content in a week. Many players in my FC only started capping single battle classes until the past couple months.

I'm not telling you to go play something else. But if you're going to play a modern MMORPG, you've got to understand that these games are being made with a larger audience in mind. If you designed a game for people who could afford to play for hours per day -- and if your goal was for those people to take a long time to get through content -- then you're going to drive away others who would need twice or three times as much time as those hardcore players need.

A great example is FFXI. You said you needed six months to level a job to 75... when I first played XI, back when I had WAY MORE TIME than I do now, I needed an entire year to get my first max-level job!

Most people would not put themselves through that again.

Edited, Feb 20th 2014 2:47pm by Thayos
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#69 Feb 20 2014 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
The equivalent of seven months there is end of December 2002. U.S.A didn't even have the game seven months in. Couldn't even complete the main storyline within the first year... You should consider yourself lucky.


I feel like what we need is some kind of graph that illustrates actual content added to XI and XIV along with a line showing the gaming community's rising sense of entitlement.

Edited, Feb 20th 2014 1:39pm by Thayos


I'll get right on that... not! I'm so sick of excel from work
#70 Feb 20 2014 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Wait a minute here. Are people actually suggesting that a game that has been out for over a decade has more content than a game that has been around for less than a year! Shocking!
#71 Feb 20 2014 at 5:22 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
(as opposed to blazing to it in a week)


It was your choice to blaze through all the content in a week. Many players in my FC only started capping single battle classes until the past couple months.

I'm not telling you to go play something else. But if you're going to play a modern MMORPG, you've got to understand that these games are being made with a larger audience in mind. If you designed a game for people who could afford to play for hours per day -- and if your goal was for those people to take a long time to get through content -- then you're going to drive away others who would need twice or three times as much time as those hardcore players need.

A great example is FFXI. You said you needed six months to level a job to 75... when I first played XI, back when I had WAY MORE TIME than I do now, I needed an entire year to get my first max-level job!

Most people would not put themselves through that again.

Edited, Feb 20th 2014 2:47pm by Thayos


it took me 12 months to hit 75 too and thats with working 40 hours a week. i said it woulda taken 6 months to hit 50 if i started in vanilla ffxi. also i didnt hit 50 xiv on my first job in a week (but i knew it could be done) it took me a month but still 1 month is a far cry from 12. and i work now too soooo if i took a year hitting 75 in xi while working. so i would be ok with doing it again. point being not everyone who played ffxi was jobless lived in their parents basement and paid no bills im sure THOSE ppl got to 75 MUCH faster than a year. there are ppl with jobs and other responsibility who were still dedicated and harcore enough to take as long as they had to to get what they wanted. i didnt need my games to be super easy/accesible, handholding and fast paced just because i had other things to do in my day than play games. i didnt need it then i dont need it now.
#72 Feb 20 2014 at 5:30 PM Rating: Default
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Catwho wrote:
TheAnf wrote:
I'm not normally negative but this patch seems very minor overall...this game is crying out for more diverse content not more dungeons and primal fights




This is a zero point release - the tock of minor patches in a standard tick-tock release cycle. Of course there isn't a lot of content in it.


I meant the whole patch overall...
#73 Feb 20 2014 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
It took me about six months to level WHM to 75 in XI, but that was because getting a party together took two hours instead of 10 minutes in the DF.
#74REDACTED, Posted: Feb 20 2014 at 6:03 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Somebody needs to keep him on a leash. He's just going around making crazy promises left and right then never delivering on them. We all know that what you just listed wouldn't get added for a decade. They still have so much basic, basic stuff that needs to be added if they want to keep subscribers.
#75 Feb 20 2014 at 6:08 PM Rating: Excellent
Actually, if the first expansion opens up Ishgard like I expect it will, that'd fit into the atmosphere perfectly.

It's not like you already don't strap on Magitek and PEW PEW in one of the dungeons.
#76DuoMaxwellxx, Posted: Feb 20 2014 at 6:09 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) 10 mins in Df? tell a dps that. as far as a party taking 2 hours well i learned how to fix that problem after spending 6 hours once in my moghouse with a seekflag up it was called making my own pts since relizing that i was always in a ot within an hour or less soooo i cut my wait time down by 6
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