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#27 Jun 10 2014 at 6:25 PM Rating: Excellent
Maybe they wanted to try to change that with the classes?

Rogue gets TH, ninja doesn't would do it.
#28 Jun 10 2014 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
I don't know. Anyway I'm pretty disappointed that there's no Thief for now, so I'll be in my corner crying. Thief is a staple of Final Fantasy, Ninja really isn't (as much). Thief was a job in the original Final Fantasy with its sneakiness and key skills like fleeing, stealing, and lots of major characters in the franchise have been Thief, like Zidane Tribal or Locke

(I DON'T mind them adding ninja, it's just that adding it before thief feels like a smack in the face).

Edited, Jun 10th 2014 8:42pm by lass5
#29 Jun 10 2014 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
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lass5 wrote:
I don't wanna have this discussion... you know you can't play this game competitively without your job equipped

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#30 Jun 10 2014 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
DomfranciscoOfIfrit wrote:
lass5 wrote:
I don't wanna have this discussion... you know you can't play this game competitively without your job equipped

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you cut out the second part of my post... hi!
#31 Jun 10 2014 at 7:30 PM Rating: Good
lass5 wrote:
I don't know. Anyway I'm pretty disappointed that there's no Thief for now, so I'll be in my corner crying. Thief is a staple of Final Fantasy, Ninja really isn't (as much). Thief was a job in the original Final Fantasy with its sneakiness and key skills like fleeing, stealing, and lots of major characters in the franchise have been Thief, like Zidane Tribal or Locke

(I DON'T mind them adding ninja, it's just that adding it before thief feels like a smack in the face).

Edited, Jun 10th 2014 8:42pm by lass5



I am not surprised we are seeing Ninja before thief. At the end of the day Thief has a very specific set of skills that doesn't translate into combat in an MMO as well. Anything you put into it would be play on words or loss adaptations of it's spirit in a single player environment. I almost feel like thief would be better as a "Craft." Make it like mining but instead of mining points you practice mugging random mobs. Sneak up on mobs or Utilize other players distracting enemies to steal hard to get materials etc.

It feel more like thief and you have the class in there without it being bastardized into an assassin. Which it kind of was in XI then it became a hate managing class(Sort of) and ended up with no identity at the end of the game besides a TH *****. Which I don't think any thief wants to be again.

Square gonna have to think hard about how to bring a balanced Thief to the table that's useful, fun to play, and not have it only being apart of groups to ping mobs with TH.
#32 Jun 10 2014 at 7:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wonder; if they make ROG have access to and use all of the THF abilities, will people still want THF?
#33 Jun 10 2014 at 7:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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lass5 wrote:
I don't know. Anyway I'm pretty disappointed that there's no Thief for now, so I'll be in my corner crying. Thief is a staple of Final Fantasy, Ninja really isn't (as much). Thief was a job in the original Final Fantasy with its sneakiness and key skills like fleeing, stealing, and lots of major characters in the franchise have been Thief, like Zidane Tribal or Locke

(I DON'T mind them adding ninja, it's just that adding it before thief feels like a smack in the face).

Edited, Jun 10th 2014 8:42pm by lass5


I'm pretty sure Ninja has been around since the very first Final Fantasy. In fact...wasn't it the job that Thief "evolved" to once you complete Bahamut's quest?

Ninja is just as much as a staple as Thief. If we want to bring up characters, we have Edge from FF4, Shadow from FF6, Yuffie from FF7, and probably some others that I can't think of right now.

The thing I'm most glad about is that Ninja won't be a tank. Bad memories from FFXI lol.
#34 Jun 10 2014 at 7:38 PM Rating: Decent
I just hope all the Ninja weapons aren't small katanas, and we get some badass dagger/knives designs like with when they showed the Rogue in the trailer.

I guess I just see Ninja has heavily relying on its magic/ninjutsu and also throwing stars and I wanted to really get in there with some straight physical super fast burst damage with some trickery on the side... maybe ninja will give me what I want - but I'll have to see

Edited, Jun 10th 2014 9:39pm by lass5
#35 Jun 10 2014 at 7:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hi, how are you? Welcome to Zam.

I have a question? Where is your strongest impression of Thief coming from? FFXI or some other source?

I'm wondering because I don't necessarily see Ninja's skillset being too overbearing on the basic Rogue set. I've only seen one class who's entire dynamic changed with a job change and that was Scholar from Archanist. Even Bard more less is the same component job, just accented differently to enable support function.

So I'm more or less hopeful that the base class more or less defines Ninja and not the other way around. But this still may not meet your needs as the base class may be different from what you want. It really depends on what kind of DD they make it. From what I hear, stealth is a big component in making its damage work out.
#36 Jun 10 2014 at 8:23 PM Rating: Decent
Hyrist wrote:
Hi, how are you? Welcome to Zam.

I have a question? Where is your strongest impression of Thief coming from? FFXI or some other source?

I'm wondering because I don't necessarily see Ninja's skillset being too overbearing on the basic Rogue set. I've only seen one class who's entire dynamic changed with a job change and that was Scholar from Archanist. Even Bard more less is the same component job, just accented differently to enable support function.

So I'm more or less hopeful that the base class more or less defines Ninja and not the other way around. But this still may not meet your needs as the base class may be different from what you want. It really depends on what kind of DD they make it. From what I hear, stealth is a big component in making its damage work out.


Zidane is my favorite Thief

and I understand that the whole skillset doesn't change with the job advancement, but it doesn't feel like a Thief if it's heavily based on ninjutsu magics like they talked about
#37 Jun 10 2014 at 9:03 PM Rating: Good
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I'm with the newbie. SE has made a big mistake pigeonholing all potential thieves in to the NIN job. People who enjoy THF are not the same people who enjoy NIN.

First of all, the NIN fans are by majority fans of Japanese martial arts, anime, culture, and 3 Ninjas Kick Back (If you know what that is, I'll give you a cookie.) Thief fans on the other hand are more interested in western culture, LOTR, and Robin Hood: Men in Tights (same as above). Sure there are folks in the middle of this verbal Venn diagram I've just created, but for the most part the culture is fairly divided.

I for one think ninjas are super cool, but I've never been interested in playing one. The rogue class speaks to me, but with no way to branch in to a classic Thief class, I have no intention of playing it. Bummer, hopefully they don't take MSK (which should by all means play like a pirate, since Merlwyb is admittedly so) and turn it in to some centurion gunner job because "pirates are mean".

Edited, Jun 10th 2014 11:05pm by Transmigration
#38 Jun 10 2014 at 10:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
I'm with the newbie. SE has made a big mistake pigeonholing all potential thieves in to the NIN job. People who enjoy THF are not the same people who enjoy NIN.
The main issue I think is the fact that there's not much to differentiate NIN and THF in FFXIV if they both sprouted from the rogue class. I don't really mind because to me a Thief is a nimble guy that fights dirty while a Ninja is a guy that uses jutsu, but some did argue against this idea on the O-boards.

I am amused at seeing the NIN AF being an almost direct throwback to Shadow from FFVI.
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#39 Jun 10 2014 at 10:30 PM Rating: Excellent
Read on Kotaku, I think it was, that Rogue will have stuff like poison daggers (not too far from XI's THF, that was the second WS you unlocked on it) and that NIN will have access to the ninjutsu in addition.

The elephant in the room is that THF in XI's #1 trait was Treasure Hunter. If Rogue doesn't get that, then it's not going to be comparable to THF no matter how cool it looks dual wielding.

#2 trait was of course enmity control, and I would love to see Sneak Attack and Trick Attack return (plus some of the wackier ones like Accomplice that stole enmity from other players. Steal enmity from the healer, dump it on the tank. Wheee!)

Edited, Jun 11th 2014 12:31am by Catwho
#40 Jun 10 2014 at 11:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Transmigration wrote:
I'm with the newbie. SE has made a big mistake pigeonholing all potential thieves in to the NIN job. People who enjoy THF are not the same people who enjoy NIN.

THF and NIN went hand in hand in XI. Without the other, one was worthless. Two of any combination of these jobs was godlike though. They shared a lot of similarities.

It also makes sense that NIN not come from a tanking class.
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#41 Jun 11 2014 at 1:12 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Read on Kotaku, I think it was, that Rogue will have stuff like poison daggers (not too far from XI's THF, that was the second WS you unlocked on it) and that NIN will have access to the ninjutsu in addition.

The elephant in the room is that THF in XI's #1 trait was Treasure Hunter. If Rogue doesn't get that, then it's not going to be comparable to THF no matter how cool it looks dual wielding.

#2 trait was of course enmity control, and I would love to see Sneak Attack and Trick Attack return (plus some of the wackier ones like Accomplice that stole enmity from other players. Steal enmity from the healer, dump it on the tank. Wheee!)

Edited, Jun 11th 2014 12:31am by Catwho


I like those ideas too, but tbh, they're going to have to change how emnity functions somehow in this game, because once a tank gets relic or Titan weapon, you need an ilvl 110 weapon as a dps to pull hate, or mass Medica spam as a WHM (SCH will never pull hate the way they are set up now).
#42 Jun 11 2014 at 1:26 AM Rating: Good
Well looking at how classes into jobs works right now which i don't see changing is that you just get 5 new abilities. The only thing lost is some cross class actions so basically there is no point to level rogue past 30 without ninja.
So as said before if you want to play seriously you cant play rogue while doing it.

I think people are being to optimistic thinking that the Ninja will not being able to do anything and everything the rogue can do. That would just be a Huge huge change from how any class to Job works now. I don't really see them changing that much without giving a little more into about it.

I don't see them giving rogues TF and then taking it away once you switch to ninja. Looking they have none taken aay ant passive the main class gets for the job.If they do give rogues TF and ninja's do get TF then thief's are boned.
Not having done Coil but most other end game things is TF even really that needed ? Most bosses now have 100% drop rate of something so TF would be kind of obsolete except for farming.


As for NIN/THF going hand in hand i don't remember that at all.


Thf needed NIN for shadows and dual wield but so did most classes NIN however never really needed THF.
#43 Jun 11 2014 at 3:39 AM Rating: Good
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Perrin wrote:
In this video it definitely looks like THF AF, I'll secretly hope THF is a Job until I get my heart shattered. http://kotaku.com/final-fantasy-xiv-soon-to-be-plagued-by-rogues-and-ninj-1588916235


In the Kotaku article they mention that those waiting for a tank/healer will have to wait for an expansion, is this something Yoshi confirmed on stream? I am curious because if that is true it does sound a little like there will not even be any branshing to two jobs per new class, unless they are actually adding four new DPS jobs which I am not saying will not happen, but seems a little strange? Or what do you guys think?
#44 Jun 11 2014 at 8:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
dawgdchi wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
It looks like Rogue is the class and Ninja the job. Nothing gun-ular yet.

If that's the case, why show Rogue in what looks like Artifact Armor with a relic weapon along with Ninja? I'm wondering if they'll be jobs off the same base class with how both have armor/weapons?


Good question. My initial guess was Rogue --> NIN and/or THF. But if the Rogue is in AF, then maybe they are keeping THF as a separate job a secret until later? Smiley: eek


Watched the video. I don't think the Rogue gear is AF, since rogue is a class much like marauder. It is probably class specific low level gear.
#45 Jun 11 2014 at 8:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Belcrono wrote:
Perrin wrote:
In this video it definitely looks like THF AF, I'll secretly hope THF is a Job until I get my heart shattered. http://kotaku.com/final-fantasy-xiv-soon-to-be-plagued-by-rogues-and-ninj-1588916235


In the Kotaku article they mention that those waiting for a tank/healer will have to wait for an expansion, is this something Yoshi confirmed on stream? I am curious because if that is true it does sound a little like there will not even be any branshing to two jobs per new class, unless they are actually adding four new DPS jobs which I am not saying will not happen, but seems a little strange? Or what do you guys think?


From the video content, seems like they are struggling to fit the thief theme into FFXIV (i.e. no city would want to take on a "thief guild" etc. Rogues are basically thieves, it was determined.
#46 Jun 11 2014 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Read on Kotaku, I think it was, that Rogue will have stuff like poison daggers (not too far from XI's THF, that was the second WS you unlocked on it) and that NIN will have access to the ninjutsu in addition.

The elephant in the room is that THF in XI's #1 trait was Treasure Hunter. If Rogue doesn't get that, then it's not going to be comparable to THF no matter how cool it looks dual wielding.

#2 trait was of course enmity control, and I would love to see Sneak Attack and Trick Attack return (plus some of the wackier ones like Accomplice that stole enmity from other players. Steal enmity from the healer, dump it on the tank. Wheee!)

Edited, Jun 11th 2014 12:31am by Catwho



It won't ever get treasure hunter. Not only was it a wholly unbalanced trait in FFXI which effectively guarantees Thief in any and all events regardless of party compositions. It also simply wouldn't work in a game that provides guaranteed drops like this one does.

What would you 'Treasure Hunter' in CT? If you say you get a currency bonus I'm just going to wait and let you figure out how unbalanced that would be.

Emninty Control, I could get behind. (Props to those here to get the reference.) But again, it's a concept that doesn't function well here when we've already got pretty solid hate mechanics.

In the end, people's FFXI version of thief doesn't fit here in FFXIV. Honestly it seems more in line with FFI's version, where Thief and Ninja were simply evolutions of each other.

However, it did seem like both Class and job did a lot of strafing attacks, even while solo, so there may be a mechanic close to sneak-attack where bonus damage is done when not attacking the front, sadly we saw no damage numbers for us to figure out if such damage is really burst or not.

In the end FFXI struggled to make Thief relevant beyond Treasure Hunter an initial burst damage for fights for years, while I sympathize with those who set themselves up with expectations on it to be dashed (I imagine it would be akin to me discovering Red Mage in FFXI came with a wand and not a sword.) I'm still going to keep my stance that expectations, especially in a Final Fantasy series jumping form one game to another, is always a bad thing.

Edited, Jun 11th 2014 10:42am by Hyrist
#47 Jun 11 2014 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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So this might get me playing again. Oh and has everyone overlooked/forgotten that Jujitsu in XI had enfeebles?
#48 Jun 11 2014 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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nonameoflevi wrote:
Oh and has everyone overlooked/forgotten that Jujitsu in XI had enfeebles?

Ninjutsu. Jujutsu is a style of martial arts.
#49 Jun 11 2014 at 10:59 AM Rating: Default
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lass5 wrote:
I don't know. Anyway I'm pretty disappointed that there's no Thief for now, so I'll be in my corner crying.


Continue to cry.

Thief isn't coming. Period.

He's already stated that Thief will never be in FFXIV.

Quote:
Rogue/Ninja is DPS

New tank and healer classes will be revealed in next expansion.

There will be no thief class. When the thief class was brought up the response was that they did not fit due to not being specific enough. The story behind rogues are that the thieves banded together, created their own guild and thus became rogues. In short, rogue will be your thief. When a recording of the stream goes up I will be able to confirm this with the proper time in the video, but it was confirmed that there will be no thief class.


Considering the fact that FFXI only gave threat re-directing abilities (since it's an MMO and all) to compensate for a ****** enmity system, it wouldn't work here as holding hate is now solely the tank's job in FFXIV.

That leaves Flee, Steal/Mug, and Treasure Hunter.

Flee is already disqualified as everyone has Sprint, so having an additional movement speed buff isn't really that impressive.

Steal/Mug, if it exists, is probably part of the Rogue class. However, considering the ease of making money in FFXIV and the fact that monster drops aren't the horrendous, slogging grind like FFXI there's no need for them other than to have them "just because" -- and that's not a compelling reason at all. Treasure Hunter doesn't work either in FFXIV considering that drops, outside of Leviathan Extreme and all Extreme mounts, has zero purpose in this game. Getting mats from monsters is already easy. Loot at the end of dungeons are hard capped and always drop (not dealing with FFXI's RNG crap).

Sorry, but Thief isn't coming. The fact of the matter is, no matter how much you may have loved THF in FFXI, this is NOT FFXI and it doesn't really have enough to warrant itself being a full job.
#50 Jun 11 2014 at 11:04 AM Rating: Default
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Viertel wrote:
lass5 wrote:
I don't know. Anyway I'm pretty disappointed that there's no Thief for now, so I'll be in my corner crying.


Continue to cry.

Thief isn't coming. Period.


http://2p.com/6988278_1/About-Rogue-amp-Ninja---Final-Fantasy-XIV-A-Realm-Reborn-Interview-at-E3-2014-by-flamedust.htm

YoshiP's Interview wrote:
Rogue is basically like the Thief class in the series


So unless they heavily butcher it, then yeah Thief won't be coming but they're most likely taking the more generic/less "technical" version of what a thief is in the series, e.g we likely won't see Steal, Mug or Enmity control (XI version of Thief.) Hell he even stated flatout Ninja and Thief won't have "faster gameplay", something expected of the Assassin line of classes in MMORPGs.

Quote:
Considering the fact that FFXI only gave threat re-directing abilities (since it's an MMO and all) to compensate for a sh*tty enmity system


Using your amazing logic, every MMO has sh*tty Enmity systems because just about every @#%^ing MMO to exist has a Threat control/enhance/decreasing mechanic.


Edited, Jun 11th 2014 10:06am by Theonehio
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#51 Jun 11 2014 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
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Using your amazing logic, every MMO has sh*tty Enmity systems because just about every @#%^ing MMO to exist has a Threat control/enhance/decreasing mechanic.


FFXIV and WoW have it so that the tanks hold all the enmity/threat/hate that they need to hold, which wasn't the case in XI. WoW does have some non-tank threat mechanics, but those are rarely used and IIRC, some of them are being removed in the next expansion because they are that useless, because tanks never lose hate unless they suck in some way (undergeared, wrong type of gear, or just generally not playing the class right).

In XI, you needed stuff like Trick Attack in some setups, otherwise you weren't going to be able to hold hate, esp back during the SC+MB days when people did 6man grind groups. Not even a PLD could hold hate after some BLM dumped a MB'd Thunder IV on some poor hapless mob. Heck, I remember days where I pulled hate off of PLD tanks just by trying to keep him alive if a mob decided he was going to use back-to-back nasty attacks (Sickle Slash, Screwdriver, Jet Stream, etc). Or, God Forbid, said PLD be having lag issues and is having trouble timing his Cures so that he doesn't get interrupted. Or the NIN that got interrupted while casting Utsusemi and needs Cure IIIs dumped into him.

But yet in XIV... I can't remember the last time my CNJ actually pulled hate unless the tank just plain wasn't doing his job right. Occasionally, one out of 4 mobs will come over and chew on me for a second before the tank throws a Provoke or something.

Also, in WoW and XIV... you can actually SEE your threat in-game, which makes it seem like these two games have "actual working threat systems" when XI... you had no way of accessing this information, so it didn't seem anywhere near as good regardless of whether or not it actually was.
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