That time has come for me as well...Follow

Not sure how accurate this is as it is only from my pov, but it seems that most of those that are carried are DPS's. I only say that because as PLD or SCH it is painfully obvious if I am getting carried through a fight. Some fights such as Garuda EX are extremely reliant on the tanks knowing what to do. I noticed a lot dps's dieing when I started doing turn 1 and primals HM, when it seems they need to focus on more then just causing damage. Now I am not saying that there are not tanks or healers that get carried, it just seems that it happens to dps's more early on and is made obvious when endgame comes around.
Again, no offense to dps's and I could be completely wrong, it is just how it appears to me.

Edited, Aug 27th 2014 11:40am by RyanSquires

This is absolutely true, and the big reason for it is because for the vast majority of the game, the DPS are in no danger of dying as long as there is a mildly competent tank and healer present... whereas a tank has to not only hold hate on everything, but know when to use defensive cooldowns, and when to avoid ground AoE, as well as know how much he/she can handle at a time. A healer is responsible for keeping everyone alive, which at times can be super easy, but at other times can be crazy hectic. The good ones also know when to DPS when healing is not needed. DD's for the most part just have to stand and attack. Drg and Mnk have a fair amount of movement, but even so they have far less to worry about than a tank healer.

That's why I liked playing tank for the challenge, but enjoyed mnk as well just for the more relaxed atmosphere.

Edited, Aug 27th 2014 12:23pm by BartelX

Actually, the concept of scripted fights and needing constant practice comes down to a flaw in not just modern MMOs, but a lot of offline games as well.

"iterative design" - the design philosophy that a player will repeat content multiple times, occasionally unlocking new things or making new discoveries along the way.

Think of the play-through and completions they initiated with FFX-2. The concept of missing some of the content in a non-linear format the first go round, and having to play the ENTIRE GAME again to catch the stuff you missed. Compare this to the on-the-rails implementation of FFXIII-1 where everyone whined about it being too linear. It was possible to skip content, but that didn't prevent you from completing the game's storyline through to the end. (Whereas X-2 required 100% completion for the final cutscene. Jerks.)

ARR's entire design philosophy is based around repeating elements of the game over and over again. It's less obvious than in, say, WoW, since you don't have to repeat the story every time you want to level a new class, but it's still there. They focus on making the content repeatable rather than making a large volume of one-off content.

For players who crave novelty, this iterative design style in MMOs can be annoying.

And because the fights are so scripted in XIV, it's can feel even more boring. At least with XI, each farming session in Dynamis was unique, due to so many variables (number of players, job makeup of players, the goal of the run (farm or clear?), what day of the week in game, the non-guaranteed linkage for parties of mobs making pulling an art form, how on-their-A-game each player was, how much of a meanie each boss wanted to be. And so on.)

We don't have anything like that in XIV yet. The goal of EVERY dungeon/fight you do is to clear, with a stark exception of the Brayflox HM speed runs people did for a while there. The party makeup will always be the same size, with some minor changes in DPS classes. The monsters will always use the same abilities at the same time.

What I want, it seems, is a different kind of repeatable content.

- Long form dungeons, not mini instances like Coil. Something we can settle in for two hours and only MAYBE totally clean out.
- Content that rewards killing all monsters, not just bosses
- Content that doesn't always require a full clear
- Incremental progress. Allied Hunt seals are a good start, but still too boss dependent.
- Boss fights that have an element of unpredictability to them - no script, just JA timers and spell timers like player characters. Have abilities change with the weather, the time of day, or the composition of the party.
- Allow more flexibility in alliance building. Between 8-24 players, and you decide who goes into what. I wouldn't mind an XI style all-BLM + BRD party who does nothing but tackle adds, Jailor of Love style. And a control party with four three tanks, three white mages, and two bards. And a separate melee party with their own healers and a bard. Think beyond the holy trinity.

Edited, Aug 27th 2014 1:05pm by Catwho

Good point, Nash, about the need to know your job... that's a skill of sorts.

Beyond that though, the need for memorization to avoid what mostly amount to insta-death mechanics are what really take the skill out of so many endgame encounters.

I like what Catwho says about Dynamis, and this is a convo we've had in here before... but I think you see a lot more from a person's "skill" in an event like dynamis than you do from something like Turn 5. Beating T5 (especially with echo, when a properly geared tank barely even needs to touch defensive cooldowns) is almost all about memorization, whereas dealing with all the variables occurring in a routine dynamis run is much more based on skill (how you adapt on the fly, when you don't know EXACTLY what's coming next).

Sometimes it's how you say it that matters. Gnu was also comparing FFXIV to D3 which is like saying Harry Potter sucks because it completely fails as a mystery novel.

FFXIV activities are in a pyramid, which start with easy content anyone can do from the base to the Second Coil of Bahamut at the top. The medium challenges in FFXIV require time. The hardest challenges in FFXIV require time and extensive coordination with other players. Having the right gear is the first step in preparing for these challenges and most everyone can what they need to take a crack at it, but without the time to invest in the first place, you really can't progress through them. If you're hardcore, you'll put in the time, and even make nice with other people to get the rarest stuff. But if you're casual, you'll be happy to get some nice gear and wait for less time consuming activities to advance.

Maybe there are gaps in this progression from casual to hardcore, but I think the offerings are more on point than they are not. As the game matures, we'll see more activities that will appeal at every play level, as we do with all MMOs.

Well SE has to watch out too.. People work hard for the gear especially the hardcore... SE just then hands it too everyone without giving them a chance to enjoy their gear they worked so hard for..
.
Same with releasing new gear too fast and obsoleting gear.. I know I worked so hard to get all my 90 gear and the minute I get it 100 gears is out..

I think allot of it too is SE is having to bring content out fast because people have been moving through it way faster than they thought. Making people get new gear is easy content to produce and get out fast. I think with the Atmas, books, Alexandrites, oils and sands it has slowed some people down..

Its really hard to balance a game to make everyone happy, especially when a game is new.

I think SE was hurting for cash and was way understaffed in the beginning, I think with the failure of the game originally they were afraid to put too many resources on the game, I think SE was blindsided by the success of this game which was obvious by the shortage of servers and some worlds still being locked.
I may not like everything in the game right now but somehow I feel it is improving...





Edited, Aug 28th 2014 9:32am by Nashred

I think that mostly has to do with daily routine cycles. Tanks and healers might have a different responsibility but I wouldn't say more. DD can't live long enough without the support and the support can't kill much without the damage. Daily practice at certain focus makes you more proficient at that task. That takes constant exposure through time. The shoe on the other foot would be healers dding and tanks healing.


This is the trinity based system at heart. Games with no trinity would have better rounded players because the entire game makes them practice that. Usually games with no trinity tend to be eased down some due to no strict roles.


In my opinion this is due to the requirement of healers to track more resources and it gets harder the bigger the party you are responsible for. As a DD you typically don't need to look at what is happening with the rest of the party. Tank might monitor their own resources but the rest of the party not so much, their obvious answer would be a monster isn't hitting them.A healer has to watch everyone's resources by the name displays, special focus on the tank, and avoid environmental stuff.


How you communicate says more than any sentence you could ever utter no matter how clever it is. How well you do this expresses your intent and how well it is perceived.


I resonate with what you are wanting. But SE might want to tread carefully if doing this. When a stat becomes very powerful it can trivialize other sections of the game. In Dark Souls it was strength and poise. The other worry is designing content so maliciously hard, only 5% of the player base ever gets to participate in it.

Yeah, this.

I really do enjoy XIV, but I'm also finding fewer reasons to spend long hours playing.

This game really needs Dynamis-like content... something that's not just a scripted dance around insta-death mechanics, which can keep players busy for months or even years.

Also, this game needs improved social infrastructure. We need FC alliances, or the option to join more than one FC... one or the other, or both. This is the single-biggest thing that's holding me back as a player.

Between content lockouts, extreme vertical progression and the rigid social infrastructure, a lot of the fun factor is being left on the table.

Edited, Aug 28th 2014 10:13am by Thayos

Purely casual players just want to make substantial progress in the little time they have to play. As long as there's something interesting to do that grants this opportunity, it's enough. The vast majority of FFXIV players are like this. They aren't on forums stating their goals for the week. They show up for a few hours a week, and they're happy to hit a new level, or claim a new article for their build.

I think there's trouble when people have a foot in both sides. They'll burn through the casual stuff too fast, and then hit a wall trying to do the hardcore stuff. The material that I see for people who straddle the line is accessible, but comes with an incredible grind (finishing a relic weapon is not for the timid). But if they want to traverse into purely hardcore material, they can sometimes hit a wall.

The only thing that requires real skill in this game is the purely hardcore content. And, save the pioneers who clear the content first, for most people it's a matter of learning how to dance. By that I mean all the steps to victory are laid out by the people who finish first. For everyone else, the only real skill they need is how quickly they learn the steps to this new dance so they can win too. Once you learn the steps, however, the dance never changes, so it's only ever about perfecting your performance not about adapting to bad situations or a clever AI.

In some sense, this is helpful for not-so-casual-not-so-hardcode cohort, because you'll find plenty of guides online detailing exactly how to win, exactly what it looks like to win. Getting the opportunity to practice might involve forming a learning group, which could be the most frustrating part of the exercise. But once you've learned the steps, a win is virtually assured as long as you team up with people who also know the dance (which is also a contender for the most frustrating part of the exercise.)

Long story short, gear isn't really the issue, or rather, people being "handed gear" isn't the issue. A lot of the hardest fights don't even need the best gear to complete (although it helps).

It's a problem of access. If you want to take on Titan Ex, you'll have a hard time gaining access to practicing the steps you need to perform to win. Most the experienced people who've won in the past either don't want to do it anymore or have long since lost the patience to train newcomers and just want a quick victory. And it can be hard to get enough newcomers to practice, and even then, the group might not even make it to the final phases of the fight in the time you have.

If anything, this is the source of frustration. You're either forced to pass yourself off as experienced when you're not, or you're stuck in a long slog of trying to gain experience from a dwindling pool of talent. iLvls don't really have anything to do with it.

FC should be for players who are dedicated groups like statics for raiding or close friends that play together. Linkshells should act as an additional chat channel for people you meet along the way that you wanna keep up with or group up for things like hunts, treasure maps, ect.

It's pretty clear that FC should be more dedicated since you can only be a part of one. Just makes sense that it be the people you spend the most time with in game.

By linkshell message functionality, you mean like the /lsmes function we grew used to in FFXI? I don't disagree that it would be a good idea to have something like that again(if it's not there, I never used a linkshell in XIV to be honest), but again I think the idea of linkshells is just a limited chat channel. If you had a group that required people to be aware of event times or anything else you might use /lsmes for, you'd probably want to go ahead and make an FC.

Maybe I'm old school, but it doesn't make sense to me to have more than one FC. I had always expected (mostly due to announcements of FC achievements, buffs, housing ect.) that an FC was a commitment you made as a group to work toward common goals. The way they talked about it, things you did in the world would contribute to your FC much the way actions in FFXI would contribute toward your nation's conquest standing.

I always liked the idea of conquest and (though it may have been present in other games) I was not surprised to see it make it's way from XI into games like WoW with factions or TERA with alliances. I understand that linkshells may be under-utilized, but I don't think it's dodo time. It seems like something that could be greatly improved by minor changes that wouldn't take too much effort to implement.

... I can't think of where to begin to say how differing my experiences in the game are from yours Garuda.

My Free Company is like a family to me. We're even allying with friends of another free company to network. We use LSes to network them, so a larger community can have multiple venues to hang out (And roleplay) in.

We now have two company houses, each expanding rooms of differing types which we use for roleplaying or even just showing off purposes.
The FC house is a major gathering point that we have for repairs and basic crafts, it's also a goal post to get certain things for certain rooms or players using the facilities we have.

We have a group of friends that play daily, that mix and match grouping together to help with various different long term goals (some raid, some are working on Zodiac weapons, some are working on crafting, we have gardening/chocobo goals, etc.) We grouped up for a full alliance that grouped two FCs together and good number of people from Party Finder as well. It was social, it was fun - and a **** of a lot better than letting the Duty Finder pug a group together. (Yes, you can form those alliances now not in the future, we can do them already.)

If I am to say you're antisocial, and speculate on the reason, I'd have to say it's because you approached the game with the same expectation of an eleven year old MMO title that's antiquated past its prime.

I actually prefer this to FFXI's method. FFXI forced people to socialize and caused some very, very toxic and unhealthy communities because people abused the necessity of them. Those same Dynamis alliances you speak of had some really **** poor structures that really assisted only a core circle of hardcore players at the expense of the whole, and the grand majority dissolved as soon as it wasn't a necessity.

Here, people get together because they want to be together - FC's are actually held together out of general goodwill, not fear of never attaining anything outside them. They vary from small FCs like the one I am in, to huge communities - and they're useful just as a social aspect.

It's just disappointing that people sell those simple benefits short.



Edited, Aug 29th 2014 12:07pm by Hyrist

Hyrist, sounds like you have a great community! That's awesome, and I really do envy you. That's exactly the kind of community I'd like to be a part of.

Unfortunately, having a community like that is like catching lightning in a bottle. It's rare. Especially in this game, when you can only be in one FC and the LS infrastructure is non-existent, it's just so hard to find one group who you can really go through the game with.

For example, my FC has an active core of approximately eight players. Of those, I'm the most hardcore (and I'm not really "hardcore"). Two others (one is the leader) are a little less hardcore than I am, and one of those guys refuses to do Ex primals. Below then, you've got maybe two or three people who are more serious casual players... they play almost daily, but not for very long... and below them, you have people who log in every two or three days.

So we have enough people for some fun socialization, and often there are enough people for running dungeons or ST... but that's it. People aren't online enough to do things like BC or primal Ex. The few of us who are more hardcore are often trying to plan events, but other members are just too casual to get excited about it. And even at the top of our group, there's that one guy who doesn't care about primals, which makes doing that in FC even more impossible.

That said, I consider these people to be my in-game friends. I played XI with many of them (hours upon hours in dynamis). I don't want to have to leave this FC in order to join a FC where I can actually bond with people while getting things done. I also don't want to go through all the game's meaningful content in PUGs with people who I barely know. I want to know the people in my FC, and I want to know the people I advance through the game with. And yes, I've tried several times to make statics... but when people aren't in your FC, they just don't usually take things like statics seriously. Plus, the lack of infrastructure in the ls system makes it very, very difficult to organize a static made up of people from outside your FC.

So yeah... I get what you're saying, and your group IS doing it right... but that's just not the norm, and the game's social infrastructure is the biggest problem.

Edited, Aug 29th 2014 9:21am by Thayos