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#52 Oct 19 2014 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
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I have not played FFXIV for a while and unlikely to be able to return to the MMO scene for the lack of time and energy needed, but I will admit the trailer look quite nice. I will look forward to see the details what may be in the expansion just for being former die-hard gamer who still try to keep up what is going on. :-) I hope the expansion will work out well.

PS: You know I am a former FF die-hard when I name test variables and scripts as "lalafell" and "tarutaru" >_> (just to lighten up the Sunday afternoon or evening mood - aka back to work tomorrow)
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#53DuoMaxwellxx, Posted: Oct 19 2014 at 12:03 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) btw I think they could came up woth a better name for te exp.... I mean XI had rise of the zilart, chaoins of promathia, treasures of aht urghan, wings of the goddess... even xiv 2.0 is A real reboprn, then the updates have good names, Defends of Eorzea, Dreams of Ice etc etc... then we get an expansion with a title like "Heavensward"?
#54 Oct 19 2014 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
btw I think they could came up woth a better name for te exp.... I mean XI had rise of the zilart, chaoins of promathia, treasures of aht urghan, wings of the goddess... even xiv 2.0 is A real reboprn, then the updates have good names, Defends of Eorzea, Dreams of Ice etc etc... then we get an expansion with a title like "Heavensward"?


The 3.0 is in good hands when this was all you could think of Smiley: lol
#55 Oct 19 2014 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
btw I think they could came up woth a better name for te exp....


Imagine that...
#56 Oct 19 2014 at 2:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
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Face it FFXI is/was better, but it's too dated now. The way you could collect tons of gear and use it all was awesome. Can we at least be honest with ourselves here. you can't BS a BSer.


We all have different opinions, and yours is no less valid than anyone's, but to be honest...

I didn't find it all that "Awesome". Side-grades offered at best, 5% better performance, and that was an awesome "OMG!" piece. You had tons of gear that you wore for a split second (swap gear in, cast spell, swap gear out. Swap gear in, use a weaponskill, swap gear out) and I always found it absolutely silly.

I think a big part of the ongoing argument here is the split between the players who participate in game content because they enjoy it, and those who participate because they feel they need to earn whatever reward that content offers.

What XI had(and still has, at an ever increasing rate it seems) over ARR is the ability to draw players to varied content. The fact that many of the rewards that this content offered were 'side-grades' only supports that point further. Players were participating despite knowing that the reward for participation was a few more damage on your nukes or a fraction of a second shaved off of your recast. And while much of these side-grades were extremely situational gear or things you might not use so frequently, there were several pieces which allowed you to vary your gameplay or even elevate it in such a way that you could do quite a bit more than the status quo for your job.

Also worth noting that BC/KS NMs, HNMs, timed or force spawn regular NMs, Salvage, Neo and regular Nyzul, Assaults, ZNM, Temenos and Apollyon, Dynamis, Walk of Echoes... all of these events were rewarding on a character progression level even if they weren't events you'd only participate in because they were enjoyable, challenging, ect.
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#57 Oct 19 2014 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Jeez buddy, well let's just say I can't relate. There was something awesome about hunting some random out of the way item for some obscure purpose, and collecting all this stuff and you could make use of all of it somehow. There's something incredibly BORING about a concrete best in slot/vertical progression system.


Yes, standing around waiting for something to pop that pops once per day (if you were lucky) was so awesome. Even more "awesome" when someone named "Asdfgh" claims it for the 5th time in a week, and lookie dat, it spawned with its name in purple.

Ask how many RDMs how "awesome" it was to do Dynamis - Xarcabard 150+ times without seeing their hat, or how they felt each and every time they were either out-rolled or passed over because they didn't have enough DKP or whatever their linkshell used at the time, or someone else had more. Or how many RDMs were next-in-line only to see their Linkshell break up and they had to start at the bottom of the list in a new Linkshell. Ask them how "awesome" that was.

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XIV is what it is, but I'm just playing the devils advocate when it comes to the guy being annoyed that any progress he makes between now & the expansion doesnt matter.


So basically you're claiming to speak for someone else.

Hint: That is NOT a good way to carry on a debate. Works much better if you speak for yourself.

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Edit: and by the way, you're too focused on the actual mathematic advantages of collecting all these obscure pieces, and I'm talking about the fun factor of collecting/the hunt for all these items (and as others are saying, creates a longer life span for all content)


Again, the "fun factor" wasn't very fun when you did the same activity dozens, hundreds of times. And if there's no mathematical advantage to doing so, then why do it? Aesthetics? OK, but how far are you willing to go for Aesthetics? If Aesthetics aren't the reason why, then what? "You have to" otherwise you can't perform at endgame? Then that's even worse; you're forced to do something that isn't fun for no eyeball-able mathematical gain, that isn't necessarily aesthetic either, just so other people will accept you in endgame activity.

There has to be a gain, a reason, for you to do said content. Look at content in XI that nobody does because there's no gain (mathematical OR aesthetic). Holidays, Pankration, etc.

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FFXI isn't the only online game to do this, in some games you can scroll through weapons on the fly such as PSO, and this opens up a collection aspect to hunting items which is really satisfying. Because you can collect different equipment for different uses. (I'm not really complaining about XIV's, just saying why I liked FFXI's/other games)


I can understand swapping a weapon in mid-battle. Heck, games like Borderlands and Warframe do this and it makes sense. You carry a gun on your back, a sword at your side, and maybe a pistol on the other side and you swap weapons for different situations. In BL2, I run around with a Sniper Rifle, a shotgun, and an SMG and they all have different purposes for different situations.

What I find silly, however, is constantly blinking in and out whole pieces of body armor in a split second, constantly. I'm wearing a full suit of platemail, then I blink to a half plate half chain type job then blink back in wearing a whole suit of plate. The concept is just so... silly. I'm glad they made it impossible to change gear while in combat in XIV. Though I think they could have had a little more leniency with weapons, but I'm not gonna complain as the game does not require or encourage you to switch weapons often and I'm fine with that.

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What we SHOULD be talking about is how badly the PS3 limitations will limit this, and all future expansions


Nah.

Let's wait until when/if that actually begins to be a problem and THEN talk about it. If we talk about it now, then we'd only be speculating and there's nothing good that will come of that, as we don't know the inner workings of the game code-wise, or what they have planned. You've gotta admit, they're pretty good at kludging solutions. Look at FFXI and how far they've come, despite "PS2 Limitations".
#58 Oct 19 2014 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Lyrailis wrote:
Quote:

Face it FFXI is/was better, but it's too dated now. The way you could collect tons of gear and use it all was awesome. Can we at least be honest with ourselves here. you can't BS a BSer.


We all have different opinions, and yours is no less valid than anyone's, but to be honest...

I didn't find it all that "Awesome". Side-grades offered at best, 5% better performance, and that was an awesome "OMG!" piece. You had tons of gear that you wore for a split second (swap gear in, cast spell, swap gear out. Swap gear in, use a weaponskill, swap gear out) and I always found it absolutely silly.

I think a big part of the ongoing argument here is the split between the players who participate in game content because they enjoy it, and those who participate because they feel they need to earn whatever reward that content offers.

What XI had(and still has, at an ever increasing rate it seems) over ARR is the ability to draw players to varied content. The fact that many of the rewards that this content offered were 'side-grades' only supports that point further. Players were participating despite knowing that the reward for participation was a few more damage on your nukes or a fraction of a second shaved off of your recast. And while much of these side-grades were extremely situational gear or things you might not use so frequently, there were several pieces which allowed you to vary your gameplay or even elevate it in such a way that you could do quite a bit more than the status quo for your job.

Also worth noting that BC/KS NMs, HNMs, timed or force spawn regular NMs, Salvage, Neo and regular Nyzul, Assaults, ZNM, Temenos and Apollyon, Dynamis, Walk of Echoes... all of these events were rewarding on a character progression level even if they weren't events you'd only participate in because they were enjoyable, challenging, ect.


As both a former FFXI and FFXIV player, I do think FFXI system is a lot more flexible and diverse than FFXIV. Both do have gear check and gates on certain content, but there is generally much more going on for the game for players to just to goof off (random Besieges or silly 10000 moat carp challenges etc). That said FFXIV has clearer progression system, more user friendly, and stronger checks against player abuses; the latter two were serious problems at times for FFXI. I do not think it is really fair to compare FFXIV or FFXI (at least old school 75-cap version), because they are really different games with the exception that both do rely a bit of RNG luck (laugh). I won't comment which one I like more, but I will say I enjoyed both of them when I played, and shared different frustrations as well, and no games should ever be expected to be perfect.
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#59 Oct 19 2014 at 4:51 PM Rating: Decent
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scchan wrote:
I do not think it is really fair to compare FFXIV or FFXI (at least old school 75-cap version), because they are really different games with the exception that both do rely a bit of RNG luck (laugh). I won't comment which one I like more, but I will say I enjoyed both of them when I played, and shared different frustrations as well, and no games should ever be expected to be perfect.

Well sure, but if we all agreed on everything these discussions would be really boring wouldn't they? Smiley: lol
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#60 Oct 19 2014 at 5:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well sure, but if we all agreed on everything these discussions would be really boring wouldn't they?


It's still kind of depressing that a thread that should have been about celebrating an expansion announcement was derailed into yet another gripefest about vertical progression.
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#61 Oct 19 2014 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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Knew the stupid thing was going to double post Smiley: motz

Edited, Oct 19th 2014 6:27pm by Callinon
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#62 Oct 19 2014 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
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Well sure, but if we all agreed on everything these discussions would be really boring wouldn't they?


It's still kind of depressing that a thread that should have been about celebrating an expansion announcement was derailed into yet another gripefest about vertical progression.


What's there to celebrate? We already knew that an Ishgard based expansion with a level cap increase and new jobs was coming. We just didn't know when. Now we do. Honestly, I'd rather discuss the ramifications of the announcement instead of sitting around and mindlessly shouting "yay!".
#63 Oct 19 2014 at 6:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ramifications? The amateur dramatics are really starting to grate now. You act shocked that the inevitable level cap will render current gear obsolete, yet it is obvious from the direction the game has been taking that this was going to happen. If it is causing you distress maybe this isn't the game for you?

I spent 6 years playing XI (everyone references it, I may as well join in). The horizontal progression in that was great for customisation admittedly, but go back to it now and everything you ever owned is obsolete thanks to the latest expansion, yet I don't hear you crying over that spilled milk. Yes, the progression is rapid in this, but outside of relic progression, the gear is incredibly easy to obtain, especially if you focus on ilvl and not BiS.

Every patch cycle has obsoleted the previous gear tier, why is it the expansion announcement that is causing this reaction? And inb4 "omg white knight", you will notice I havn't defended any of the design choices made by the Dev team, all I've done is pointed out the glaring truth: it was so obvious this was coming, why are you acting surprised and lashing out? If it isn't for you, make the adult decision and leave the game, no one will judge you for that. Better than playing a game that is clearly making you miserable.
#64 Oct 19 2014 at 6:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
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Well sure, but if we all agreed on everything these discussions would be really boring wouldn't they?


It's still kind of depressing that a thread that should have been about celebrating an expansion announcement was derailed into yet another gripefest about vertical progression.

It's either that or RDM melee. Choose wisely!

Anyway, I'm overall curious to how the game is going to shape up come 60. One of my biggest concerns is that we'll just see Extreme dungeons in terms of content fluffing. Something will also have to be done about Relics, be it alleviating early phases significantly (Atma is supposed to be easier to get soon, dunno what they'll do with Myth parts) or just making some level 60 quest that, while difficult for the level, would serve as a catch up. The coming of "proper raids" sometime in the 3.0+ process also scares me a bit, as it just invites the whole gear lording scenario and pretty much every anti-casual thing I argue against a possibility when it comes to wanting alternative progression paths.

We'll see, I suppose. Since 2.5 is a thing, I'll be making my guess of launch in late-April or May sometime.
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#65Turin, Posted: Oct 19 2014 at 6:21 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) There's a huge difference between shock and disappointment. But, please go right ahead and psychoanalyze by motives based on a couple of forums posts. It'll be far more interesting than the drivel you've managed to come up with so far.
#66 Oct 19 2014 at 6:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Fair enough, perhaps I came down too hard and fast. Would you please be so kind as to properly and fully explain what the issue is? All I'm seeing at the moment is someone moaning about the inevitable, which is futile and leaves no room for discussion, considering every response you have made has been hostile rather than informative or intelligent.

The expansion details they have released so far have been exactly what I have been expecting. Some may be disappointed to see that SE aren't reinventing the wheel, but they have already had to build this game from scratch twice, was anybody really expecting an epic overhaul of the current system, when it took 3 years for them to get to this position in the 1st place?
#67 Oct 19 2014 at 6:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
Anyway, I'm overall curious to how the game is going to shape up come 60. One of my biggest concerns is that we'll just see Extreme dungeons in terms of content fluffing.

My biggest concern is regarding ability bloat. I already hit a million buttons on a regular basis and I dread to think what another 10 levels will worth of spells and abilities will do to my already full hotbars.
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#68 Oct 19 2014 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
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Karlina wrote:
Seriha wrote:
Anyway, I'm overall curious to how the game is going to shape up come 60. One of my biggest concerns is that we'll just see Extreme dungeons in terms of content fluffing.

My biggest concern is regarding ability bloat. I already hit a million buttons on a regular basis and I dread to think what another 10 levels will worth of spells and abilities will do to my already full hotbars.

Fair concern, I'd say. I guess they could technically get around this by tiering an ability up and making using the old version pointless, but that could also be achieved via traits. I don't think this would be so bad if the macro system was a bit better (or combo abilities morphed to their next step when active), but maybe that's all something they're sitting on for when it's really needed.
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#69 Oct 19 2014 at 9:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Karlina wrote:
Seriha wrote:
Anyway, I'm overall curious to how the game is going to shape up come 60. One of my biggest concerns is that we'll just see Extreme dungeons in terms of content fluffing.

My biggest concern is regarding ability bloat. I already hit a million buttons on a regular basis and I dread to think what another 10 levels will worth of spells and abilities will do to my already full hotbars.
We're relatively far from ability bloat, as all jobs have pretty much what is essential for the to function. 10 levels means at most 4 abilities (two class abilities and two job abilities).
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#70 Oct 19 2014 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Ruisu wrote:
We're relatively far from ability bloat, as all jobs have pretty much what is essential for the to function. 10 levels means at most 4 abilities (two class abilities and two job abilities).

How many are essential vs fluff isn't the issue. The fact that so many actually are essential is the point here. Look at DRG for example. You have to hit 8 buttons just for the main combos. That's most of a hotbar all by itself even before you start adding in all the instants and cooldowns and cross class abilities and stuff, of which there are a gazillion. How many buttons do we really need to press?
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#71 Oct 20 2014 at 12:18 AM Rating: Default
Karlina wrote:
Ruisu wrote:
We're relatively far from ability bloat, as all jobs have pretty much what is essential for the to function. 10 levels means at most 4 abilities (two class abilities and two job abilities).

How many are essential vs fluff isn't the issue. The fact that so many actually are essential is the point here. Look at DRG for example. You have to hit 8 buttons just for the main combos. That's most of a hotbar all by itself even before you start adding in all the instants and cooldowns and cross class abilities and stuff, of which there are a gazillion. How many buttons do we really need to press?


The main combos make up half of a hotbar (of which there are three immediately available to you).

From the very release so many concerns of this game have boiled down to "something that might happen in the future". The cash shop may ruin the game in the future! There may be ability bloat in the future! The economy may be ruined in the future (due to deflation/inflation/rmt/etc)! The power creep issue is going to be horrible someday! They are going to release less original content! The job balance is going to be ruined!

I can assure you few more abilities are not going to break the camel's back, especially when bloat is not an issue in the present game. Yes, down the road bloat will become an issue if nothing is done about it. Yes, down the road the cash shop will become a bigger part of the game. Yes, the game will see the day when we are not getting as much original content as we are today. Yes, the power creep issue will have to be dealt with someday. Yes, as the job system becomes more complex there will be balance problems in the future.

The game is going to be facing many challenges. The only reason to be so d*mn concerned about all of this is only if said concerns prevent you from enjoying the present game. And I can tell you that the answer to the problem is not to worry more. I highly doubt any of this will be relevant in Heavensward -- I'd go as far as to say the time of the first expansions for most MMO's have been some of the best.

As the genre has matured, we can pretty much guess how things are going to go from experience. However that anxiety of the still-distant future shouldn't stop us from enjoying the present and the near future. More importantly we should also know that many solutions have been implemented by other devs who have had to face the same challenges. The future is not so bleak. Let's leave the concerns of the future to the trolls.

Edited, Oct 20th 2014 6:22am by Hyanmen
#72 Oct 20 2014 at 12:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Karlina wrote:
Ruisu wrote:
We're relatively far from ability bloat, as all jobs have pretty much what is essential for the to function. 10 levels means at most 4 abilities (two class abilities and two job abilities).

How many are essential vs fluff isn't the issue. The fact that so many actually are essential is the point here. Look at DRG for example. You have to hit 8 buttons just for the main combos. That's most of a hotbar all by itself even before you start adding in all the instants and cooldowns and cross class abilities and stuff, of which there are a gazillion. How many buttons do we really need to press?
Some would argue that more buttons is a good thing. Some also argue <insert thing that is obviously not a good thing> is a good thing.

I'm on the same boat with DRG, which is why I simply leveled it to 50 to see the storyline (I main PLD anyway so it's not a problem for me but I feel for those who want to play DRG but find it too cumbersome). That said, we'll need to wait and see if any more adjustments are made to the existing jobs to accommodate the lv60 cap. It may go either way with the inclusion of situational abilities or making changes to gameplay to make the new abilities fit in.

Edited, Oct 20th 2014 2:26am by Ruisu
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#73 Oct 20 2014 at 1:30 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
From the very release so many concerns of this game have boiled down to "something that might happen in the future". The cash shop may ruin the game in the future! There may be ability bloat in the future! The economy may be ruined in the future (due to deflation/inflation/rmt/etc)! The power creep issue is going to be horrible someday! They are going to release less original content! The job balance is going to be ruined!

No duh all the concerns are about "something that might happen in the future." That's what the word "concerned" means. Being worried about what might happen.

I don't think most people (here at least) are worried that those issues will break the game. We're just talking about potential issues because, well, that's where the discussion is right now. Considering how little we know right now we have nothing better to to be speculate and wonder on the internet.
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#74 Oct 20 2014 at 1:47 AM Rating: Decent
Karlina wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
From the very release so many concerns of this game have boiled down to "something that might happen in the future". The cash shop may ruin the game in the future! There may be ability bloat in the future! The economy may be ruined in the future (due to deflation/inflation/rmt/etc)! The power creep issue is going to be horrible someday! They are going to release less original content! The job balance is going to be ruined!

No duh all the concerns are about "something that might happen in the future." That's what the word "concerned" means. Being worried about what might happen.

I don't think most people (here at least) are worried that those issues will break the game. We're just talking about potential issues because, well, that's where the discussion is right now. Considering how little we know right now we have nothing better to to be speculate and wonder on the internet.


These really are sad times when an announcement of an expansion pack bringing tons of new features and contents to the game, sparks discussion on the upcoming potential issues. The reasoning being that there is nothing better to speculate on...

It's all about attitudes in the end. We could enjoy the potential new ways to play our jobs through the additional abilities, or we can simply choose to think "oh, new abilities... now I need to relearn to play my job, not to mention the bloat.. what a bother. sigh."

You can choose to be this cynical but don't act like there is nothing better to speculate regarding an expansion pack than the potential issues it might bring about. Just how depressing is that? Smiley: disappointed

Edited, Oct 20th 2014 7:48am by Hyanmen
#75 Oct 20 2014 at 2:38 AM Rating: Default
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Hyanmen wrote:
These really are sad times when an announcement of an expansion pack bringing tons of new features and contents to the game, sparks discussion on the upcoming potential issues. The reasoning being that there is nothing better to speculate on...

It's all about attitudes in the end. We could enjoy the potential new ways to play our jobs through the additional abilities, or we can simply choose to think "oh, new abilities... now I need to relearn to play my job, not to mention the bloat.. what a bother. sigh."

You can choose to be this cynical but don't act like there is nothing better to speculate regarding an expansion pack than the potential issues it might bring about. Just how depressing is that? Smiley: disappointed

Don't get me wrong. I'm just as excited as the next person, but we have very few real details so there just isn't that much else to talk about yet.

"Awesome, new classes! Maybe it'll be samurai/dark knight/blue mage/[insert favorite job here]!"

OK, got that covered. Now what? Once we know what the new jobs are maybe THEN we'll be able to some discussion about them. Right now we'd just be going over the same things we've already been talking about for months. (not that we don't do that anyway)
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#76 Oct 20 2014 at 3:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Actually, DRK has all but been confirmed. Or, at least, a reasonable facsimile. Yoshi~P was holding up 2 drawings of job/class artwork during the live letter. One was a person in goth like plate armor holding a scythe, and the other looked like a pirate. So the second class/job may be COR or MSK. There was also another knight looking char, but not sure if that was showing off a job, or just the armor.
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