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Relic Quest 2.45Follow

#1 Dec 10 2014 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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Here's the info on the new relic quest:
http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/2oqp5f/zodiac_weapons_the_final_grind_factsfaqhowto/

Atma 2.0. So far it don't seem that bad, but does require running dungeons to get an ATMA like drop. People have reported going 1/2 and 1/3, I have also seen people reporting 0/16. Good news is, you don't need the nexus equipped to get the drop. So DPS can run these as a tank or healer if they wish.

Also requires HQ items that are 3-star recipes, so if you are not crafter, this will likely be quite a gil sync. Desynthing is also required as well as needing a bunch of GC seals and soldiery tomes.

I think I might skip this one for now.
#2 Dec 10 2014 at 8:04 PM Rating: Default
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I just find it so hilariously ironic - People normally **** talk XI in the XIV community yet in my Relic/Mythic/Empyrean grind I at least benefited from additional drops like selling unused currency, or the Relic pieces that dropped (mainly accessories back in the prime days), blowing through my tags and gearing out jobs in Nyzul gear and such.

Here..you're literally grinding for the sake of it and some steps are so unnecessary it's funny. But alas, Naoki Yoshida can do no wrong.
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#3 Dec 10 2014 at 11:47 PM Rating: Good
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Both games have you 'needlessly grinding' for your upgrade steps, Hio. The quintiseential difference here is that the XIV relics are soloable from the start, rather than staticing 20 + people to participate for the benefit of one for the majority of the game's lifespan. And/or sinking the entirety of your gil into it *coughrmtcough*

And an individual player still benefits, multiple fold, for participating in the required content. The sheer amount of various currency rewards granted by taking the Relic path can be quite beneficiary, as opposed to jumping into the same content repeatedly for drops you may be waiting multiple years to obtain due to abysmally low drop rates and gear competition.

Speaking of gear competition. There is none in this Relic system. Multiple people working for relics is encouraged here because the majority of the Relic steps work and are rewarded on an individual instanced basis. Where as two people working for their relics in the same Linkshell in FFXI are literally halving one another's advancement speed.

There's also the fact that FFXIV's Relics are also functional from the start. Meeting most of the current ilvl checks into current content even as that content is still new.

You may want to take off the rose tinted glasses there. For a relic grind, FFXIV's level 50 Relic beats FFXI's level 75 Relic hands down and we're not even into the first expansion yet.

Edited, Dec 11th 2014 12:48am by Hyrist
#4 Dec 10 2014 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
I just find it so hilariously ironic - People normally **** talk XI in the XIV community yet in my Relic/Mythic/Empyrean grind I at least benefited from additional drops like selling unused currency, or the Relic pieces that dropped (mainly accessories back in the prime days), blowing through my tags and gearing out jobs in Nyzul gear and such.

Here..you're literally grinding for the sake of it and some steps are so unnecessary it's funny. But alas, Naoki Yoshida can do no wrong.


They are focusing too much on trying to prevent RMT from being a thing. It's always going to be a thing no matter what they do. They should just give it up already and let us have an economy. If they want to stop RMT then they need to have people monitor what is going on. That costs money, but were paying a sub fee so some of that money SHOULD be going towards something like this. How many times playing both FFXI and FFXIV have I seen trains of suspicious people doing really odd things, yet nothing is done about for a loooooong time, if ever. Even though gil in this game is still mostly useless, RMT's are still able to sell it. With housing, materia for novus, and now this, people need large quantities of gil quickly. With almost nothing being profitable enough and fast enough, it gets people to seriously consider buying gil rather than farming it. What should be done? I don't know. What I do know is that what they are doing to combat RMT just isn't working, and real players shouldn't have to suffer because of it.
#5 Dec 11 2014 at 12:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
You may want to take off the rose tinted glasses there. For a relic grind, FFXIV's level 50 Relic beats FFXI's level 75 Relic hands down and we're not even into the first expansion yet.

Edited, Dec 11th 2014 12:48am by Hyrist


I wouldn't really call that a good comparison. FFXI's relics were the most powerful weapons in the game by a pretty large margin compared to second best (most of the time).

FFXIV's relics are on-par with current weaponry, and are never the most powerful weapons. Coil weapons get that title.

I don't think choosing to call FFXIV relics "relic weapons" was that great an idea because of how people see a relic weapon. people who played FFXI know relics as being a weapon so god like that only a select few may wield them. or all of them if your name happened to be minidragon. Anyone who didn't play FFXI doesn't care. But those who did are going feel a sense of disappointment because of what comes with being a relic weapon.

I don't personally care, but like I said comparing FFXI and FFXIV relic weapons is like comparing apples to oranges. They aren't the same thing, and so is the different grinds required.

Edited, Dec 11th 2014 1:08am by Keysofgaruda
#6 Dec 11 2014 at 4:09 AM Rating: Good
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Keysofgaruda wrote:


FFXIV's relics are on-par with current weaponry, and are never the most powerful weapons. Coil weapons get that title.


Actually by the time the Relic Weapons equate the weapons of the Coil patch, they are superior due to higher secondary stats. As such the 135 Zodiac weapon will likely be superior to that of the Coil Weapons depending on the stat build of the wielder.

Also, I feel the comparison is fair. These are weapons that take long-term investments in wielding and as they continue to progress, it is likely that fewer people will take them to fully upgraded form.

FFXI's 'rarity' factor for relics, by many FFXI players, was seen as a determent, not a boon. Content that seems un-achievable gets underplayed and reduces the play value of the product - thus a lower sustained subscription rate. The pyramid factor of the relic weapons was poor design form the get go, which is why the current FFXIV development team so fundamentally changed the concept.

Right now, Dreadwyrm weapons will beat out Zodiacs, mainly due to the 10 ilvl difference. This is due to the philosophy difference between FFXIV and FFXI. But when you match ilvl to ilvl, which will likely happen in 2.55 by my guess. These weapons will be superior, then the cycle will continue.

There is no 'one best weapon' because it's vertical a progression game rather than horizontal one. What Relic's here serves is a weapon that is steadfast. Instead of throwing away weapons as they run out of date, you update it - and it will continually grow in strength and change in form. You can take this one of two ways. One, that Relic Weapons as FFXI standards go, do not exist in FFXIv, which Hio's attempt at belittling FFXIV completely fails as he's off category. Or, you can say that Zodiac path weapons in FFXIV take similar form to what Relics in FFXI are now - the weapons you hold onto and upgrade through the patches. In which case FFXIV has learned from FFXI's feedback and adapted it into a vertical progression mechanic.

Hardcore Raiders who are worried about their Epeen get their time ahead of the curve by grabbing their Raid Weapons which peak as best earlier in the raid rotation, while Relic hunters get a weapon they keep and work on, and wind up being stronger weapons by the end of the raid rotation. Personally, my limited time for the game kind of prevents me from keeping a Relic up to date, but I still work on it, even though I have a superior weapon. The process is far and away more enjoyable than FFXI's relic ever was - and that alone says something.
#7 Dec 11 2014 at 4:45 AM Rating: Good
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Keysofgaruda wrote:
I don't personally care, but like I said comparing FFXI and FFXIV relic weapons is like comparing apples to oranges. They aren't the same thing, and so is the different grinds required.


This is definitely true. I haven't played FFXI in a few years, but up to the point I did play, the most similar grind to FFXIV's relic weapons would be XI's Trial of the Magian weapons when they first came out. They weren't the best weapons in the game, but for a lot of jobs they were better than alternative high end drops and crafted items. The vast majority of trials could be completed by solo players. The only limiting factor was time. Where XI had players waiting for a NM to pop, trying to kill 100 of x on y day/weather, or collecting a bunch of drops from NMs to turn in, XIV has players waiting for a FATE to pop, grinding 1500 tomes for books or collecting a bunch of drops from FATEs to turn in.

I haven't personally seen anything in FFXIV that resembles FFXI's relic weapons, and due to the design they seem to be aiming for I doubt we will.
#8 Dec 11 2014 at 6:02 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
There is no 'one best weapon' because it's vertical a progression game rather than horizontal one.


There will always be a "one best weapon" precisely because the game is a vertical progression. The majority of the time it is the current endgame dungeon, as long as their design decision holds, then the Zodiac weapon catches up (barely) before the next "one best weapon" is released again. Loot range gods aside, it is massively easier (and cheaper) to obtain a Coil weapon than it is to obtain a Zodiac weapon. They bank on the fact that the average player has an addictive personality and will happily grind these weapons out regardless of whatever speedbumps they dream up.

The real joke for me is the perception that Zodiac weapons are somehow for the Casual crowd and raid-level weapons are for the Hardcore players. I could never consider someone who is at current stage Zodiac as anything other than Hardcore. Significantly moreso than someone who logs on one or two nights a week to complete current Coil and prays their weapon drops. The time investment to obtain a Zodiac weapon is massive.
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#9 Dec 11 2014 at 8:03 AM Rating: Excellent
As someone who completed both a relic AND an Empyrean in FFXI, I feel qualified to speak up about this...

Getting a relic weapon from 75-99 in FFXI entails a lot of the BS that you guys are seeing in XIV now. It's TotM all over again. The last stage of relic requires 5 Umbral Marrows from Arch Dynamis Lord, which still sell for about 5 million gil a pop. But the stages before that was 100% pure grind. Kill 200 aquans using Knights of the Round! Kill 400 members of the bird family with you getting the last blow! Basically, 1400 monsters for Excalibur that you had to do solo.

At least us horn folks and the shield folks didn't have to do through quite that much. I just had to clear Dynamis Windurst and Dynamis Jeuno five times each, then kill the WHM/BRD Shade in Beaucedine five times, then animated horn in Xarc ten times. 25 Dynamis runs to level 95 horn wasn't so bad, since by then we could do a solid run in Dynamis with six people.
#10 Dec 11 2014 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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Releaser wrote:
The real joke for me is the perception that Zodiac weapons are somehow for the Casual crowd and raid-level weapons are for the Hardcore players. I could never consider someone who is at current stage Zodiac as anything other than Hardcore. Significantly moreso than someone who logs on one or two nights a week to complete current Coil and prays their weapon drops. The time investment to obtain a Zodiac weapon is massive.

Ding ding. Though, Hio seems to have a rage ***** for Yoshida, lobbing out lines like he can do no wrong in angst. Probably solely because I dared to say in the past XIV has a higher ceiling of potential than their precious XI does at this point. Meanwhile, I'd probably be one of the more harsh critics of things XIV has done under the casual banner, or lack thereof. Still, I get to be a fanboy.

Anyway, Magian trials were mentioned above, which was probably the closest XI got, I'd agree. And bite-sized chunks of progression are pretty cool for the casual player, yes, but one also needs to be careful about snowballing all of that together. As a result, I'd say XI suffered from too many steps, too many objective points, and basically being unfun grinds nearer to the ending points of the system. Consider further that any job likely needed multiple weapons for niche purposes, and it was easy for people to feel burnt out or even come to hate the system entirely. So, while I'd rather have such a system in place than none at all, care must still be expressed.

XIV also has the looming specter of what to do with Zodiacs come 3.0. You can't really keep level 50 content "hard to do" when the new cap is 60. This will mean reductions in trade-ins will be needed, drop rates improved like with Atma a bit back, and so on through the chain just so getting a "top 50 weapon" isn't a task that takes weeks or even months when you're 60 and just using some junk green that's way better. Or do they implement a more simpler catch up quest that yields the final product? Then again, they could just wave it all off and say the new weapon line is totally unrelated. It's basically a crappy place to be in because SE will make someone unhappy as I'd argue their system isn't quite right at present. And the whole hardcore content masquerading as casual is a part of it.
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#11 Dec 11 2014 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
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Keysofgaruda wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
You may want to take off the rose tinted glasses there. For a relic grind, FFXIV's level 50 Relic beats FFXI's level 75 Relic hands down and we're not even into the first expansion yet.

Edited, Dec 11th 2014 12:48am by Hyrist


I wouldn't really call that a good comparison. FFXI's relics were the most powerful weapons in the game by a pretty large margin compared to second best (most of the time).

Edited, Dec 11th 2014 1:08am by Keysofgaruda


I agree.. There were times though... Empyrean at one point I think may have been better and the Empyrean was not too hard to get except the last phase starting with the iron plates or whatever it was..


Susanoh wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
I don't personally care, but like I said comparing FFXI and FFXIV relic weapons is like comparing apples to oranges. They aren't the same thing, and so is the different grinds required.


This is definitely true. I haven't played FFXI in a few years, but up to the point I did play, the most similar grind to FFXIV's relic weapons would be XI's Trial of the Magian weapons when they first came out. They weren't the best weapons in the game, but for a lot of jobs they were better than alternative high end drops and crafted items. The vast majority of trials could be completed by solo players. The only limiting factor was time. Where XI had players waiting for a NM to pop, trying to kill 100 of x on y day/weather, or collecting a bunch of drops from NMs to turn in, XIV has players waiting for a FATE to pop, grinding 1500 tomes for books or collecting a bunch of drops from FATEs to turn in.

I haven't personally seen anything in FFXIV that resembles FFXI's relic weapons, and due to the design they seem to be aiming for I doubt we will.



That is about it Trial of the Magian, Nice post and you hit the nail on the head.

Really hard to compare the two games really because in FFXI the best gear is good for a very very long time and not everyone had it.

FFXIV everyone has basically the same gear and in a month and a half it is all pretty much out dated.


Edited, Dec 11th 2014 9:49am by Nashred
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#12 Dec 11 2014 at 12:42 PM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
Releaser wrote:
The real joke for me is the perception that Zodiac weapons are somehow for the Casual crowd and raid-level weapons are for the Hardcore players. I could never consider someone who is at current stage Zodiac as anything other than Hardcore. Significantly moreso than someone who logs on one or two nights a week to complete current Coil and prays their weapon drops. The time investment to obtain a Zodiac weapon is massive.

Ding ding. Though, Hio seems to have a rage ***** for Yoshida, lobbing out lines like he can do no wrong in angst.


I know you have a hard on for attacking my posts, but even you seen how people always state that Yoshida is basically perfection. There's no angst here kiddo, sorry to disappoint you, yet again. However you seem extremely butthurt based on this comment though.
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#13 Dec 11 2014 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
I know you have a hard on for attacking my posts.

Wanna know why? You're basically "50 Shades of Preludes" tier as a poster anymore. OP makes a thread about the Relic quests, very first reply? "XI did it better!" There's no BS in me calling that out. It's what you did. And unfortunately, it pretty much set the tone for the rest of the conversation.

We can pretty much see your disdain trickles to the XI section with stuff like this:
Quote:
Seriha just looked too far into something that isn't there..that's usually specific to the FFXIV community's mind set:

...because it's apparently cool beans to insult players of this game or even go earlier in that thread itself you played the horsecrap "entitlement" card in reply to my pointing out that getting CP/JP was an unfun process. Mind you, zero comparison to XIV or any other game there!

Or I could just call out your accusation of me slobbing Yoshida's knob via this:
Quote:
The major difference between you and I, is I'm not going to constantly berate ONE developer for something that 100% isn't their fault when no matter how many times SE states something and even Naoki Yoshida (which your love for is a bit unhealthy) and Matsui says the way things progressed in both their MMOs was the companies fault all together and over all need to change you still insist on blaming one person.

Bluntly, I don't have the energy to slog through a history of post-Abyssea topics in the XI section to find you playing devil's advocate for Tanaka despite numerous other posters essentially sharing their disdain for the direction he was carrying things upon his return up until his departure. And it's utter hypocrisy if you want to claim one man wasn't in control of XI, but then assert that the case for XIV. One way or the other, someone has a final say in the decision-making process. He was the face. He was "that guy" and he "earned" his reputation whether you like it not. Which is probably what made Yoshi seem so refreshing in comparison to all the people you want to mock.

So, by all means, continue your own butthurt in camping my posts while keepin' on keepin' on. Or we could just drag an admin in, play, "You started it!" for a bit longer, and see where the dust settles. Up to you. I'm obviously not afraid of defending myself.
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#14 Dec 11 2014 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
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I'd say my biggest problem with the relic is due to how fast gear progresses in this game. I'm ok with having a long term goal, but if you take your time, by the time you are done, the ilvl has already been raised. The amount of effort for the little time that the relic is a current weapon doesn't match up.

I can understand they wanted it to be something you can't do in a day(like the original relic). They seem to have gone too far in the other direction. If they can find a balance between two, it might be be ok.
#15 Dec 12 2014 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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squiress wrote:
I'd say my biggest problem with the relic is due to how fast gear progresses in this game. I'm ok with having a long term goal, but if you take your time, by the time you are done, the ilvl has already been raised. The amount of effort for the little time that the relic is a current weapon doesn't match up.

I can understand they wanted it to be something you can't do in a day(like the original relic). They seem to have gone too far in the other direction. If they can find a balance between two, it might be be ok.


Problem with your statement: if you're going to be taking your time (like a decent chunk of the playerbase does) then it doesn't matter what gets raised when because you're doing it at a casual pace.

That isn't to say I don't agree with the ridiculousness of the relic chain past Animus (Atmas were annoying but doable, and Animus books weren't really that bad beyond the startup cost per book) because I do. Novus and 2.4.5 parts of the Relic chain are trying to force crafters and battle content to collide and it never meshes well and just causes ridiculous situations with the items that are needed (i.e. Tier IV going from 20-30K to 500K+ overnight -- which isn't helped by the fact that spiritbinding is probably the most soul-crushing RNG I've seen lately [go go elemental Tier IVs....} -- and the cost of the new desynths now). Hell, I just ended up throwing in LOLParry and LOLAccuracy on my Curtana/Shield for the few remaining slots I had due to not getting any SBed DET/Crit IVs for a month and just overwrite them later at the Nexus step.

It's ridiculous effort for subpar rewards. If the 2.4.5 chain had something passive like OaT on auto-attacks it would be worth it but right now? Eh, I've been puttering around on the Nexus step with zero effort to go into a Duty Finder group as a PLD and watch herps derp over and over again on HM primal fights.

#16 Dec 12 2014 at 10:00 AM Rating: Default
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When they forced battle/craft/gatherer to collide I liked Tanaka's idea better (Hamlet Defense, which yes was already set to be release long before the dev shuffle), that way you don't have crafters trying to rape you ontop of the already long time commitment. It's gotten to the point a non friend/FC crafter will ask you for your mats and 400-500k+ just to craft it.

You may as well have bought the damn item completed at that point.
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#17 Dec 12 2014 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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Only part that is going to be hard is buying the crafted "Perfect" HQ items required for the turn ins. Those are selling for anywhere from 1-1.5 million each right now, and you need one turn in for each crafting job basically. The desynthed materials are cheap right now, but finding a crafter to do everythign is going to be tough. Only omnicrafters I know have gone insane and quit because it felt like a second rl job.

I'm boosting my ltw to 3 star HQ quality (pretty much there,only need the offhand hq tool), so I can make the perfect vellum HQ required for the turn in, and essentially trade it out in sales for the other items. Also I can make the HQ water hardeded gryphonskin straps (or whatever they are called) to buy the ilvl 70 glasses to desynth with my gsm at level 85 desynth to get those mastercraft materia.

I've gotta make big money to continue down this road.

But as I am wrapping up the nexus step, I have already bought one bomb core for 20k seals (3 to go) and almost have the 1600 soldiery I need for the Auriana item (need four of those).

The dungeon stuff is rng and tedious, but wont break your pocket.

Edited, Dec 12th 2014 10:56am by Valkayree
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