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#1 Feb 06 2015 at 11:34 AM Rating: Default
What's your guys' opinion on some of the more and more advanced gaming mice on the market?

What I'm talking about, are the ones rolling out with more and more sophisticated software bundles.

If you guys know where I'm taking this. I'm actually hinting 3rd party software like FFXI experienced with the FFXI Windower.

For instance, S.E. has some pretty strict rules when it comes to third party software enhancing the gaming experience. I'm just curious what you guys think about all the hardcore gaming mice rolling out on the market with software more and more often created to give gamers a certain edge over others that don't own the same devices.

Did you guys pay attention to some of these ... $80 or $100+ gaming mice? Some of their UI software are so crazy, it literally gives certain players close to an unfair advantage in the game.

For example, there are certain settings you could use the mouse's own software to do certain things... like reduce clicking speed... Pre-program a certain set of macros, executed a certain amount of times by simply clicking one key, like.. a fish bot.

Maybe I'm bad at describing them, because personally I don't use a device like that. But I do work for a company that develops computer hardware for the gaming industry. So I'm curious to know what gamers think on this subject.

Let me put it to you guys another way. If someone who owns a $80 gaming mice, can outperform you in FFXIV because you have an inferior mouse device, or keyboard for the matter, do you think S.E. would allow this? Do you guys think Blizzard or WoW would allow this?

Keep in mind that Blizzard initially did not accept any 3rd party software not developed by themselves, but later on incorporated a few 3rd party apps that were developed specifically for raiding. So I'm really curious as to where people stand on this.

For reference, anyone can look at some of the high end mouse by Razor or other known brands..

#2 Feb 06 2015 at 12:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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For mice i'm not too worried. Especially with XIV. There's no quick macro's you can add to them that would give you an incredible edge.

Even the functionality of the G15 keyboards are not as broad as you would have with for instance WoW or similar games.

The only "edge" a programmable piece of hardware can give you is that you can use it to trigger other 3rd party software such as bots, hacks, warps, cheats and similar things. By itself, not better or worse than a regular mouse. And people who use such things arent worried about consequences.

The only thing a mouse such as a Razor has for me over a "cheap" mouse is that it seems to be more precise, better in the hand and i get a better feeling out of using one. The extra buttons? meh. Cant think of anything i could use that function for.
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#3 Feb 06 2015 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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GiftedChild wrote:
If someone who owns a $80 gaming mice, can outperform you in FFXIV because you have an inferior mouse device, or keyboard for the matter, do you think S.E. would allow this?
If someone owns a $3,000 gaming computer, can outperform you in FFXIV because you have an inferior computer, do you think SE would allow this?

If someone is on FiOS, can outperform you in FFXIV because you are on DSL, do you think SE would allow this?

If my dick is bigger than yours, can outperform you in your girlfriend because you have an innie, do you think God would allow this?
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#4 Feb 06 2015 at 1:51 PM Rating: Excellent
People look at my mouse and go "WTF" because it's an ergonomic mouse, not a gaming mouse, and shifts the position of the hand over to handshake instead of clutching a hockey puck.

The programmability of the UI, then keybinds, and the game controllers already make it possible for someone to tweak the game for maximum efficiency for their playstyle. Having additional macros on a mouse isn't going to give someone that much more of an edge.

If someone wants to use a fancy mouse, by all means. I'd prefer to use no mouse at all.
#5 Feb 06 2015 at 2:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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There just plain isn't that much of an advantage to gain by having different hardware in this game.

Now when you're talking about hacks or bots or something along those lines, of course THAT'S not ok. But that's not ok already.

The best advice for hardware is to play how you're comfortable playing as long as you're not cheating.
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#6 Feb 06 2015 at 2:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
People look at my mouse and go "WTF" because it's an ergonomic mouse, not a gaming mouse, and shifts the position of the hand over to handshake instead of clutching a hockey puck.

The programmability of the UI, then keybinds, and the game controllers already make it possible for someone to tweak the game for maximum efficiency for their playstyle. Having additional macros on a mouse isn't going to give someone that much more of an edge.

If someone wants to use a fancy mouse, by all means. I'd prefer to use no mouse at all.


That mouse actually makes a whole lot of sense. I've used everything from trackballs (a la arcade millipede) to the actual hockey pucks they gave you with the original Mac G3 and that seems like it would definitely ease arm tension.

But what do I know, I use a controller. Since 1986. My skeleton has had time to regenerate two complete times since then (once every 10 years), and has firmly planted an controller shaped occupational hand grip groove into my phalanges.
#7 Feb 06 2015 at 2:47 PM Rating: Excellent
I use one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-G500-Programmable-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B002J9GDXI

It's somewhere between the flat and the vertical, very much suited to my ideal hand position. I don't use any of the programmable features, although I did use the weight selection to get the balance and feel right.

And I think that's really what it's all about: you'll play best with whatever feels the most natural to you.
#8 Feb 06 2015 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
Valkayree wrote:
Catwho wrote:
People look at my mouse and go "WTF" because it's an ergonomic mouse, not a gaming mouse, and shifts the position of the hand over to handshake instead of clutching a hockey puck.

The programmability of the UI, then keybinds, and the game controllers already make it possible for someone to tweak the game for maximum efficiency for their playstyle. Having additional macros on a mouse isn't going to give someone that much more of an edge.

If someone wants to use a fancy mouse, by all means. I'd prefer to use no mouse at all.


That mouse actually makes a whole lot of sense. I've used everything from trackballs (a la arcade millipede) to the actual hockey pucks they gave you with the original Mac G3 and that seems like it would definitely ease arm tension.

But what do I know, I use a controller. Since 1986. My skeleton has had time to regenerate two complete times since then (once every 10 years), and has firmly planted an controller shaped occupational hand grip groove into my phalanges.


I switched over to it due to a long standing injury* that, compounded with my other medical issue (hello fibromyalgia), would make my entire forearm hurt if I used a mouse for too long. Now I have one at work, and one at home, and I rarely have wrist pain as badly as I did before.

* DO NOT TRY TO ROLL A SHOPPING CART ONE HANDED.
#9 Feb 06 2015 at 6:23 PM Rating: Good
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#10 Feb 06 2015 at 8:28 PM Rating: Good
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I have a G9S with my desktop and use a G700 on my laptop. It took me a bit to get used to the G700, but now it's my favorite mouse. As far as advantages in game... the DPI selection on both mice, does nothing advantageous for most MMO's except maybe FPS games. I do have macro's set to my extra thumb buttons though. On the G9 I just have a combined emote that I rarely use and the other button is my Push to Talk for my headset.

On the G700 I have a macro to summon my Choco companion, use a healing potion and use a mp potion, in addition to using another button for Push to Talk.

On both mice I HAD a button set for /beckon when I was doing leve quests for grinding solo levels. I hate those escort quests :p

For Keyboard, I currently use a G19 and I really like the additional screen. I usually use it to see who's talking in chat programs, but I have a few different apps for various games that have my key info there.

I think I'll get a G910+ Orion Spark in a few months. I really like the idea of using your cell phone for a screen as it doesn't push the KB cost up much, the SDK's in theory should be more widely supported and the modding community seems to be doing so much more with add ons for that vs the fairly dead app community for the G19. I don't use any G keys on the KB for macro's, but some folks have made quick crafting macro's and such with them.




Edited, Feb 9th 2015 11:27pm by Perrin
#11 Feb 06 2015 at 10:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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As far as how SE (and other companies like Blizzard) would view it, I doubt that they would take action against players using mouse enabled macros or other advantages when it comes to games that are mainly PvE. I don't know about WoW, but the PvP in FFXIV has been secondary. I can't see Blizzard taking action against it unless it was for a game that they're positioning for eSports (say, Starcraft 2 and Heroes of the Storm).
#12 Feb 06 2015 at 10:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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svlyons wrote:
As far as how SE (and other companies like Blizzard) would view it, I doubt that they would take action against players using mouse enabled macros or other advantages when it comes to games that are mainly PvE. I don't know about WoW, but the PvP in FFXIV has been secondary. I can't see Blizzard taking action against it unless it was for a game that they're positioning for eSports (say, Starcraft 2 and Heroes of the Storm).


It's all in the context. Basically as long as the device isn't being used for unattended play (botting) it's probably fine. The existence or inherent relevance of pvp isn't really an issue in this case. Botting was also not allowed in FFXI, a game with virtually no pvp at all. Actually I believe that's why the game was originally enforced fullscreen (and crashed if you dared to alt+tab on your pc... cheater).
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#13 Feb 06 2015 at 10:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
It's all in the context. Basically as long as the device isn't being used for unattended play (botting) it's probably fine.

Yeah, I don't think SE, Blizzard or any company in their right mind would ban players simply because they detected the presence of a mouse that was capable of performing extended functions that could give players an edge. It would be foolish to alienate customers simply based on the kind of mouse that was detected on their system.
#14 Feb 07 2015 at 1:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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It only gets foolish when other players start demanding you have the same hardware. You can see comparative examples in other games where add-ons are more of a thing and how people are very highly "encouraged" to use them. Sadly, if you don't like your UI looking like the HUD of a rocket ship, you're pretty much SOL. Or on a more tamer hardware scale, those with microphones and those without. I'd argue such things aren't as needed as others would want us to believe within PvE content, but to do without winds up requiring a higher level of understanding of encounters and awareness to both react and adapt.

Right now, the worst a mouse macro in XIV could accomplish is allowing the player to bot craft easy synths in a lag free environment. Or possibly lazy farming as a ranged attacker in some area you could safely stand still and not have to worry about LoS issues. But hey, loleconomy. Back to farming tomes with ye~
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#15 Feb 07 2015 at 3:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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I use a Naga and I don't know what I'd do without it anymore. MMOs require so many keybinds in order to counter knee-jerk mechanics and my hand can only stretch so far and be so accurate with my keyboard. Having buttons on my mouse allows me to hit keybinds with both hands without limiting my character's mobility. For example, all of my WHM's healing spells are bound to my mouse, while my offensives and CDs are bound to my keys.

For example, if I get aggro'd I can hit F to Fluid Aura and E to sleep the mob right away. If I need to Divine Seal + Swiftcast + Medica II, I hit Q > V > M5.
Without the mouse I wouldn't be able to keybind my spells to a position that I could physically access almost immediately, especially in succession.

I played WoW for many years without a gaming mouse and now that I've had one for a couple years, it makes me realize how gimped I was in comparison. I've seen people use different methods to access all their keybinds by hitting shift or ctrl + a key, etc. but I'm far more comfortable with simply having extra keys to hit with my right thumb.

My binds are 1,2,3,4,5,q,e,z,x,c,v,r,t,f,g, s on non tank jobs, m1,m2,m3,m4,m5, m6. 22 keys I can hit without changing the positions of my hands at all. I don't see it as an edge as much as it is a necessity with the way MMOs are designed these days.

I should mention that I've never found a use for the software included with my Naga or my G15. I don't even use the "G keys" on the side of my keyboard because I find their positioning to be clunky and somewhat useless. Great for slow paced MMOs like FFXI, but horrible for Rift, WoW, ARR, etc imo.


Edited, Feb 7th 2015 4:24am by Transmigration
#16 Feb 07 2015 at 4:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, ability bloat is very real for these games, and in part why I'm not much of a fan of WASD+Mouse as standalone control schemes since they put way too much emphasis on, usually, the left hand. Actual in-game systems can work around this, like how macros in Rift work (for those familiar) or allowing combo chains where instead of pressing 1, 2, 3, you can press 1, 1, 1 because 1 morphs to 2 and 3 based on the combo step. Something I've yet to really see a game do, though, is something I'd simply call "smart healing" where, for something like a status cure, instead of forcing mouse-overs or specific targeting, it'd go through how you layout your party list and cure people in that order if anyone is actually affected. Just a little something I think could help take the stress off the healer role, especially if dodging mechanics are a thing on top.
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#17 Feb 07 2015 at 8:34 AM Rating: Excellent
That's a major reason why I remapped my keyboard to the FFXI layout. Left hand handles actions, right hand does movement on the number pad. It's incredibly efficient on bard.
#18 Feb 07 2015 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
It only gets foolish when other players start demanding you have the same hardware.


Right now people largely only require you to have the guildworks app, (MOSTLY) for hunts as that tells you when and where monsters spawn, without you needing to be told. There's others but the requirements are already there on a software level.

Hardware wise, it doesn't matter but do know Yoshida has decided against certain macro styles in game because it could cause 'automation', so anything that allows 'automation' is looked down upon but hard to prove. Even in game you can 'automate' certain things to an extent but it still requires input, unlike Windower and spellcast for example.

Quote:
Right now, the worst a mouse macro in XIV could accomplish is allowing the player to bot craft easy synths in a lag free environment


Can do far, far more than that if you actually look into the 3rd party scene. Especially depending on the extent your macro mouse/keyboard can go, a lot are used to actually run raid bots (which are very noticable.)

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#19 Feb 09 2015 at 1:49 PM Rating: Default
The point is, Mouse & Keyboard 3rd party software are getting more and more sophisticated, they can do a lot more than most think right now.

I know a couple of guys that plays Korean MMO's, have made comments specifically about these new gaming mice rolling out on the market. They even specifically pointed to a Razor device that allowed them to cheat on a game called Blade & Soul. How they did it, is basically tweaking the function of the mouse via it's own 3rd party software running in the background.

So I'm just curious as to whether or not you guys believe that one day, there would be some kind of rules or regulations against this type of stuff.

Working for a company that develops these nice little gadgets, it's nice to hear what the gaming community thinks about all this. Especially considering what's happening here, is that there is a separate set of software, running in the background, that is making your gaming experience different compared to others.

Is this the same thing as FFXI Windower?

Is this the same thing as bots?

What's your take on it?

Remember those Playstation controllers with the "Auto Repeater" functions? What do you think of that?
#20 Feb 09 2015 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anything that allows unattended play is already against the terms of service for basically every online game on the planet.

Windower was certainly straddling the line. It violated the terms of service of the game because it hooked into the process and executed code. It didn't really allow unattended play... per se. But it could be configured to do something similar (5-hour long summoning magic leveling macro anyone?).
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#21 Feb 09 2015 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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Windower was most definitely cheating once you went past its ability to allow alt-tabbing, but it was also prime in an era of MMOs where players were hungry for features SE couldn't or just plain wouldn't produce. With their combat system effectively designed around mass gear swapping, exceeding the game's in-game macro system was simply the next logical step of compressing numerous button presses into one. Coincidentally, this may also be why most MMOs nowadays prevent gear swapping, even if partially, within combat. Mechanically, I can understand why they chose that path. "RP"-wise, it also makes sense to not be constantly changing your pants mid-battle. Aside from difficulty of detection, I suspect SE ultimately let Windower slide because alt-tab was highly desired and the extended macros only enabled something players could normally do with a bit more ease.

Things are arguably more dicey nowadays. Certain features like notifications about weather changes may be more QoL, but there's still an advantage others might not have if you're in a location where elementals are a threat. Even gear swapping goes conditionally deeper, swapping certain things if specific buffs are active or not. But yeah, other things like remaining buff durations are also QoL, though can still lead to a "better" player as a result of being better poised to not let buffs drop while being most resource efficient about it, i.e. casting Refresh on someone with about 3s remaining instead of earlier or after it wears. Now, some might argue Windower enabled other things like radars, speed/position hacking, and so on, but that's not entirely true. But it is true that current Windower is delving deeper into the shady territory with directly interpreting packets and even creating its own to do things that weren't possible years ago. Some may be "okay" with this by virtue of XI being an older game and SE no longer seeming to care, but just as with my feeling on add-ons, sometimes players really don't need what eventually shows up. There's a fine line between convenience and crutch, which is also why you see some folks freak out post-patch when some things stop working.

There are possible bright spots to this, though. While XI may not give you precise distances, they did go on to modify targeting arrows for abilities to give a visual indication as to whether or not something was in range and even if it was close to out of range. For casters, this helpful if you needed to be over 20 yalms away to avoid a mob's AoE, and for the longest time, console users or non-Windowers had nothing comparable. Realistically, this behooves any dev to listen to their players for improvements big and small and to perhaps avoid the trainwreck that was eventually XI's "official" window mode, what with its terrible performance issues and compromising graphic quality.

Stepping away from Windower stuff, though, there is something key I hadn't mentioned or don't readily recall other people bringing up when it comes to the expectations of hardware, and that is the minimum system requirements. FPS-mongers may declare their games unplayable at 24-30 FPS, but I'm going to posit that untrue. Stronger hardware will allow better performance, yes, but I'd say the hard line is drawn at the level where the lowest setting at the lowest possible configurations, maybe with a bit of wiggle room, run smoothly. So, for PC, that means your basic mouse, keyboard, monitor, speakers, and tower.

Mingling issues like other hacks with gaming mice/keyboards is a bit of a red herring, though. I doubt Razer is about to start packet sniffing XIV so one could run around and mine unattended or multi-box raid. Yes, someone more patient enough could manually map out directions from a default camera angle, how long a button should be pressed, and maybe even where, but that's not going to be your majority user. Such is why I'm downplaying the threat despite understanding potential advantages. Less scrupulous methods are another animal entirely.
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#22 Feb 10 2015 at 8:00 AM Rating: Excellent
XIV ARR was supposed to allow for 3rd party add-ons via an API, but honestly I haven't felt the need for it other than the occasional use of a parser as a check on my DPS compared to an equally geared person of the same class. (Generally, I'm either as good or bad as whoever else I'm playing against.) The core game of XIV has good enough controls and a UI that I feel adding anything else on top of it is unnecessary.

In comparison, Windower made of for some critical deficiencies in FFXI. That said, I do not miss editing XML or LUA files every time I got a new piece of gear!

#23 Feb 10 2015 at 8:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
XIV ARR was supposed to allow for 3rd party add-ons via an API, but honestly I haven't felt the need for it other than the occasional use of a parser as a check on my DPS compared to an equally geared person of the same class. (Generally, I'm either as good or bad as whoever else I'm playing against.) The core game of XIV has good enough controls and a UI that I feel adding anything else on top of it is unnecessary.

In comparison, Windower made of for some critical deficiencies in FFXI. That said, I do not miss editing XML or LUA files every time I got a new piece of gear!



Actually the WoW addon I've been wanting in FFXIV the most, by far, is WeakAuras. The buff/debuff tracking in XIV is just garbage.
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#24 Feb 10 2015 at 8:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Catwho wrote:
XIV ARR was supposed to allow for 3rd party add-ons via an API, but honestly I haven't felt the need for it other than the occasional use of a parser as a check on my DPS compared to an equally geared person of the same class. (Generally, I'm either as good or bad as whoever else I'm playing against.) The core game of XIV has good enough controls and a UI that I feel adding anything else on top of it is unnecessary.

In comparison, Windower made of for some critical deficiencies in FFXI. That said, I do not miss editing XML or LUA files every time I got a new piece of gear!



Actually the WoW addon I've been wanting in FFXIV the most, by far, is WeakAuras. The buff/debuff tracking in XIV is just garbage.


Idk, seems pretty damn easy to keep track of buffs and debuffs in this game. The only issue with buffs and debuffs are the caps on monsters which means your debuffs can actually not land at all and isn't just simply "hidden" from view. However that's only an issue in alliance based content and hunts.

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#25 Feb 10 2015 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
XIV ARR was supposed to allow for 3rd party add-ons via an API, but honestly I haven't felt the need for it other than the occasional use of a parser as a check on my DPS compared to an equally geared person of the same class. (Generally, I'm either as good or bad as whoever else I'm playing against.) The core game of XIV has good enough controls and a UI that I feel adding anything else on top of it is unnecessary.

In comparison, Windower made of for some critical deficiencies in FFXI. That said, I do not miss editing XML or LUA files every time I got a new piece of gear!

Yeah, thinking back on XI and Windower, here are the plug-ins that I grew to depend on and how its different in XIV:
- distance: I spent most of my time as BLM or SCH, and it made a huge difference. XIV has a built in indicator in your hotbar to tell you if a mob is in range.
- light luggage: the auto-sort feature that SE added later tried to do too much. I just wanted stuff to stay where I put it, and have new drops stack onto what I already had. ARR does this right out of the gate.
- spellcast: tons of gear swapping in XI for all jobs. No in-battle gear swapping in ARR, and the armory system handles gear swapping when changing jobs quite adequately.
- tparty: not that skillchaining was all that common after ToAU, but it was always nice knowing how close other melee were to WSing. XIV is a whole other animal. Is it useful to know how much TP other players have?
#26 Feb 10 2015 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
- tparty: not that skillchaining was all that common after ToAU, but it was always nice knowing how close other melee were to WSing. XIV is a whole other animal. Is it useful to know how much TP other players have?


For a bard or a ninja that wants to be doing their job properly it'd be pretty helpful to see party TP levels.

Quote:
Idk, seems pretty **** easy to keep track of buffs and debuffs in this game. The only issue with buffs and debuffs are the caps on monsters which means your debuffs can actually not land at all and isn't just simply "hidden" from view. However that's only an issue in alliance based content and hunts.


Sort of. And then there are those times when your debuffs simply don't appear on the target. Oh they've been applied, but they don't show so you can't see remaining duration. Or those times when all your debuff icons look f'ing identical (hello Ninja pre-fixing of this). I'd also like to know when another NIN applies Trick Attack, or when a WAR applies Storm's Eye.

Basically I'd like to tweak the way my UI displays information because I want it displayed differently. I also recognize that my preferences are not universal. This is where addons are helpful. Because I can tailor my UI to MY desires without having to demand a change for everybody.

There are also those people with physiological needs different from the majority. Color blindness for instance will completely negate the NIN debuff fix SE applied. Perhaps someone in that position would like to have those debuffs displayed a different way that would be easier for them to recognize.
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