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So now that FFXI may be dying soon..Follow

#1 Apr 13 2015 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Can I get some form of 4 man parties grinding open world in ARR?
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/229261-EXP-Parties-as-an-option-please%21

Do any of you want this too? Not as a main form of experience but as an alternative to dungeons or fates. It could offer a bit less xp if they want dungeons keeping priority.

Last question. What are some interesting things or ways other games have done in the past to earn or making grinding parties interesting?
I can only think of FFXI trials, abyssea lights, skillchains, xp chains. I would like to hear of any other games that did something cool.

Edited, Apr 18th 2016 8:46am by Thayos Lock Thread: way off topic
#2 Apr 13 2015 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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Never dying; always dieing.

As for straight up grind parties... no thanks.

Quests, leves, and FATEs are intended to replace mob grinding as a normal form of exp gain. Especially leves and FATEs.

Quote:
What are some interesting things or ways other games have done in the past to earn or making grinding parties interesting?


This is pretty much the reason. Grinding mobs is just about the most boring activity one can undertake. Korean MMOs seem to absolutely adore it, but pretty much everyone else demands some structure to their leveling.
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#3 Apr 13 2015 at 5:34 PM Rating: Excellent
The problem with allowing open-world grind parties in XIV is then you'd take people out of dungeons, which would really upset the balance of the game.
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#4 Apr 13 2015 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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sandpark wrote:
Do any of you want this too? Not as a main form of experience but as an alternative to dungeons or fates. It could offer a bit less xp if they want dungeons keeping priority.

I don't, personally. Open world grinding has never been fun to me, it bored me to tears. If they offer less XP than traditional methods, I don't think many people will participate anyway.

sandpark wrote:
Last question. What are some interesting things or ways other games have done in the past to earn or making grinding parties interesting?

This kinda supports what I was saying. If you have to have special ways to make grinding parties interesting, then maybe grinding parties aren't the way to go.
#5 Apr 13 2015 at 6:42 PM Rating: Good
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Hmmm...

Killing the same mobs over and over and over again that give pathetic rewards (gil in the single digits or the occasional crafting material) .... eh, no.

I can't really say that's the way to go in any modern MMO.

What is this, 2002-ish all over again? These ain't Everquest/FFXI/Horizons days anymore. And I'm glad, because there's nothing more boring than killing the same 5 monsters that keep respawning over and over and over again for 3-4 hours.
#6 Apr 13 2015 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
The problem with allowing open-world grind parties in XIV is then you'd take people out of dungeons, which would really upset the balance of the game.


Which is weird since it'd actually balance it out, because given the way they do the game's progression, you already have no reason to re-enter many of the games dungeons if it wasn't for the tome bonus or Zodiac forcing you into it since the pool for people who legit need it vs people who rather do FATE grinding is fairly wide, since FATEs can finish you off very quickly in comparison to some of the dungeons.

So adding in world grinding in certain areas (especially given the assumed size of HW areas) would purely balance it out, because what if for simplicity sake that Ancient Library is hellish and you would only want to run it once for the story? You'd then have overworld grinding next to FATEs - you're not pulling people out of the dungeons perse, because people who need the story dungeon will still be queuing for it, you just won't run into people who want nothing to do with it, much like your queues for say, Wanderer's Palace normal or Amdapor Keep are far longer than their HM versions, and it's guaranteed you will be running into people doing Zodiac much more than you are people who want it legit. Same with many of the leveling dungeons, you will run into Roulette runners more than new people.

At least on my clusters it seemed that way.
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#7 Apr 13 2015 at 9:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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...given the way they do the game's progression, you already have no reason to re-enter many of the games dungeons if it wasn't for the tome bonus or Zodiac forcing you into it...


Those aren't reasons to re-do dungeons? Smiley: dubious

Low-level roulette (when it's a dungeon and not a trial) is about a level a day for sub-50 jobs. The zodiac dungeon atmas, animus books, and general need for a mountain of soldiery are all pretty solid reasons to keep doing dungeons. I'd say these have been very effective in keeping dungeons populated even when people who technically need the gear from them move beyond each individual dungeon fairly quickly.

Straight mob grinding would be a weird thing for SE to suddenly embrace here. And keep in mind that for it to be effective as a means of leveling (i.e.: for anyone to actually do it) it has to be more efficient than FATEs. Dungeons are already more efficient than FATEs, but with queue times being what they are, dps tend to have a lot of holes in their exp gain through just doing dungeons. It'd just be a really strange thing for SE to do right now.

Quote:
because people who need the story dungeon will still be queuing for it, you just won't run into people who want nothing to do with it


That would decimate the queue times. They'd go from half an hour for a dps to several hours, especially later in the expansion's life. And when the next expansion launches? Forget it. In order for the current dungeons to stay populated, there have to be reasons for people to keep going back and doing them after they no longer need the dungeon for either gear or story completion. The current endgame questlines and roulette systems provide those reasons. And actually I've done a bunch of relics over the last couple weeks and Amdapor Keep (normal) queue times have been very reasonable, even for dps.
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#8 Apr 14 2015 at 1:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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There's definitely something about grinding the same mob for hours on end. You're not moving forward all the time, but you lack all of the mechanics that made it fun. There's no skill chain, support or debuffing and trash monsters do not hit like a truck. You might as well just grind the dungeons as all of the monsters in a dungeon is reserved for you and there's no competition. You could argue that exp parties already exist as people pull all the monsters in DD up to the first boss, then leave .
#9 Apr 14 2015 at 2:12 AM Rating: Excellent
Adding open world exp grinding would not just unbalance the game, but destroy it. And there are plenty of reasons to keep doing old dungeons.
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#10 Apr 14 2015 at 6:40 AM Rating: Excellent
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
...given the way they do the game's progression, you already have no reason to re-enter many of the games dungeons if it wasn't for the tome bonus or Zodiac forcing you into it...


Those aren't reasons to re-do dungeons? Smiley: dubious

Low-level roulette (when it's a dungeon and not a trial) is about a level a day for sub-50 jobs. The zodiac dungeon atmas, animus books, and general need for a mountain of soldiery are all pretty solid reasons to keep doing dungeons. I'd say these have been very effective in keeping dungeons populated even when people who technically need the gear from them move beyond each individual dungeon fairly quickly.

Straight mob grinding would be a weird thing for SE to suddenly embrace here. And keep in mind that for it to be effective as a means of leveling (i.e.: for anyone to actually do it) it has to be more efficient than FATEs. Dungeons are already more efficient than FATEs, but with queue times being what they are, dps tend to have a lot of holes in their exp gain through just doing dungeons. It'd just be a really strange thing for SE to do right now.

Quote:
because people who need the story dungeon will still be queuing for it, you just won't run into people who want nothing to do with it


That would decimate the queue times. They'd go from half an hour for a dps to several hours, especially later in the expansion's life. And when the next expansion launches? Forget it. In order for the current dungeons to stay populated, there have to be reasons for people to keep going back and doing them after they no longer need the dungeon for either gear or story completion. The current endgame questlines and roulette systems provide those reasons. And actually I've done a bunch of relics over the last couple weeks and Amdapor Keep (normal) queue times have been very reasonable, even for dps.


This is one reason why I'm raising an eyebrow that relics are completed and won't be getting any further boosts. What I'm hoping is that after iLvl 160 weapons or whatever Heavansward is getting are released, they'll go back and retroactively bump up all stages of the relic weapons to buff the ilvls, and also to make the final relic iLvl close to what will drop from Alexander HM (maybe 5 iLvls under it.) It's a ton of work but it is also a brutally efficient way to force players to repeat older content.
#11 Apr 14 2015 at 7:23 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
...given the way they do the game's progression, you already have no reason to re-enter many of the games dungeons if it wasn't for the tome bonus or Zodiac forcing you into it...


Those aren't reasons to re-do dungeons? Smiley: dubious

Low-level roulette (when it's a dungeon and not a trial) is about a level a day for sub-50 jobs. The zodiac dungeon atmas, animus books, and general need for a mountain of soldiery are all pretty solid reasons to keep doing dungeons. I'd say these have been very effective in keeping dungeons populated even when people who technically need the gear from them move beyond each individual dungeon fairly quickly.

Straight mob grinding would be a weird thing for SE to suddenly embrace here. And keep in mind that for it to be effective as a means of leveling (i.e.: for anyone to actually do it) it has to be more efficient than FATEs. Dungeons are already more efficient than FATEs, but with queue times being what they are, dps tend to have a lot of holes in their exp gain through just doing dungeons. It'd just be a really strange thing for SE to do right now.

Quote:
because people who need the story dungeon will still be queuing for it, you just won't run into people who want nothing to do with it


That would decimate the queue times. They'd go from half an hour for a dps to several hours, especially later in the expansion's life. And when the next expansion launches? Forget it. In order for the current dungeons to stay populated, there have to be reasons for people to keep going back and doing them after they no longer need the dungeon for either gear or story completion. The current endgame questlines and roulette systems provide those reasons. And actually I've done a bunch of relics over the last couple weeks and Amdapor Keep (normal) queue times have been very reasonable, even for dps.


This is one reason why I'm raising an eyebrow that relics are completed and won't be getting any further boosts. What I'm hoping is that after iLvl 160 weapons or whatever Heavansward is getting are released, they'll go back and retroactively bump up all stages of the relic weapons to buff the ilvls, and also to make the final relic iLvl close to what will drop from Alexander HM (maybe 5 iLvls under it.) It's a ton of work but it is also a brutally efficient way to force players to repeat older content.


I dont understand why they would not continue the relic, makes no sense to me.. Why would anyone even finish a relic then? Why would anyone do it as old content meaning new players or players leveling other jobs?.
A relic should continue the whole length of the game. Seems like a big mistake too me.
All that work on a relic just too what throw it away now?
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#12 Apr 14 2015 at 8:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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I dont understand why they would not continue the relic, makes no sense to me.. Why would anyone even finish a relic then? Why would anyone do it as old content meaning new players or players leveling other jobs?.
A relic should continue the whole length of the game. Seems like a big mistake too me.
All that work on a relic just too what throw it away now?


Yoshi P has said that people who completed the 2.x relic series (through zeta) will have an advantage going in to the 3.x relic series.

Honestly, I think the biggest problem with the relic series was calling it a relic. There's just too much connotation from FFXI there, too many expectations that it was never going to live up to.

I think it's perfectly fine for the 2.x relic to hang on my wall while I work on the 3.x one. Having a weapon that upgrades across expansions causes problems for new players when we're four or five expansions down the line and it turns out that the 2.x relic is suddenly BiS so get going on your six years of upgrades.

I don't consider it a waste of effort to have completed my Zeta now. It'll be with me while I'm leveling. It's been with me all this time. It's fine that it's not with me FOREVAR.

Edited, Apr 14th 2015 9:28am by Callinon
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#13 Apr 14 2015 at 8:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think it's perfectly fine for the 2.x relic to hang on my wall while I work on the 3.x one. Having a weapon that upgrades across expansions causes problems for new players when we're four or five expansions down the line and it turns out that the 2.x relic is suddenly BiS so get going on your six years of upgrades.

I don't consider it a waste of effort to have completed my Zeta now. It'll be with me while I'm leveling. It's been with me all this time. It's fine that it's not with me FOREVAR. Text


Totally agree here. The relic has provided a an option comparable to BiS to anyone in the game who can't get into endgame for personal or logistical reasons.

I hope they start off with a totally new relic system, but it would be nice if current relic holders got a bit of a head start.
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#14 Apr 14 2015 at 8:38 AM Rating: Excellent
Double post. Dang phone.

Edited, Apr 14th 2015 7:39am by Thayos
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#15 Apr 14 2015 at 8:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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The only grind parties that are viable in our current environment are spiritbonding parties out in Urth's Fount. Otherwise, farming instances for ponies and gear pretty much defines modern day endgame FFXIV grinding. Pre-endgame, the bonuses you get for joining roulettes and doing your hunt logs are more than enough to level you quite quickly.

The old FFXI model where you would advert yourself for hours, just to find a party that would take you 30 minutes to get to, only for it to break up when you got there, is defunct.

Edited, Apr 14th 2015 9:48am by Valkayree
#16 Apr 14 2015 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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I was not really wanting this to make dungeons or fates obsolete. Just another option to level. No wait times like fates or dungeons. Just grab a few friends and if the monsters are there you can kill them. Just more options to level than we have now.


Edited, Apr 14th 2015 2:16pm by sandpark
#17 Apr 14 2015 at 12:44 PM Rating: Excellent
This is basically FATE grinding... But just kill regular mobs while FATES are not up.
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#18 Apr 14 2015 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
You do still get chain bonuses when you fight mobs at your level or higher, for that matter. I can solo chain to 3-4 easily - having a group of people could probably shoot that up to 6 or 7, possibly much higher if you've got a group capable of killing a mob every 20 seconds.
#19 Apr 14 2015 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
I was not really wanting this to make dungeons or fates obsolete. Just another option to level. No wait times like fates or dungeons. Just grab a few friends and if the monsters are there you can kill them. Just more options to level than we have now.

The problem with more options is that a new option has to be clearly better in one way or another in order to get people to participate. Players will gravitate toward a single option that is viewed as the optimal option. Some portion of the player base might be willing to do sub-optimal activities, but many of them will feel forced into doing the most common activity just for the convenience of finding other party members.
#20 Apr 14 2015 at 2:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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The problem with more options is that a new option has to be clearly better in one way or another in order to get people to participate. Players will gravitate toward a single option that is viewed as the optimal option.


Yep.

People have the option to group up and kill things in the open world now. But if that were made remotely as viable as dungeons for exp/hour, then that would destroy the balance of the game's progression system.

I understand some people would rather do the camping system of XI, but this isn't that game.

What WOULD be cool, though, is an option in the duty finder to only group with others from your own server. That said, I doubt anyone would actually use it because queue times would be horrid... but that would be cool if a group of two or three people hit the queue together, wanting to team up with another person or two locally.
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#21 Apr 14 2015 at 3:36 PM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
sandpark wrote:
I was not really wanting this to make dungeons or fates obsolete. Just another option to level. No wait times like fates or dungeons. Just grab a few friends and if the monsters are there you can kill them. Just more options to level than we have now.

The problem with more options is that a new option has to be clearly better in one way or another in order to get people to participate. Players will gravitate toward a single option that is viewed as the optimal option.


So..like ARR now? People gravitate to Dungeons since SE boosted their EXP to compete with FATEs.
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#22 Apr 14 2015 at 3:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not really wanting the whole player base to gravitate one way or the other. I would just like to be able to play how I want with some friends with similar interests and make at least decent progression in the open world, no event.

Dungeons are fun but do it too much it gets stale. Fates can be fun, but do it too much and it gets stale. Do nothing but hunts and that gets stale. Party grinding can be fun, but do it solely and it gets stale too. My point is the more options, the better while progressing so nothing gets stale, stays somewhat fresh, and whole.

For example more options:
Chocobo racing
Chocobo breeding
Chocobo companions
Chocobo Mounts

All decent and fun avenues. But how about add some Chocobo jousting, or Magitek armor battle circuits, or etc,etc.

Edited, Apr 14th 2015 5:52pm by sandpark
#23 Apr 14 2015 at 3:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
The problem with more options is that a new option has to be clearly better in one way or another in order to get people to participate. Players will gravitate toward a single option that is viewed as the optimal option.


Yep.

People have the option to group up and kill things in the open world now. But if that were made remotely as viable as dungeons for exp/hour, then that would destroy the balance of the game's progression system.

I understand some people would rather do the camping system of XI, but this isn't that game.

What WOULD be cool, though, is an option in the duty finder to only group with others from your own server. That said, I doubt anyone would actually use it because queue times would be horrid... but that would be cool if a group of two or three people hit the queue together, wanting to team up with another person or two locally.

I like grouping as much as the next person. But every now and then i want to solo or duo, chillax, chat while doing something fun but that won't irritate other people if my focus is not 100%. I would like some kind of solo/duo content as well.
#24 Apr 14 2015 at 4:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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I would like some kind of solo/duo content as well.


I think I read something about how in Heavensward, you'll be able to take smaller groups (not sure about soloing) into existing dungeons. So that might be something other than crafting/fishing/guildleves.

I'd personally love to see SE develop the guildleve system a bit more... that could be the answer to giving people solo content with more decent exp rewards than killing open-world trash mobs.

I'm also eager to see the large-scale FATEs being planned for Heavensward.

And, to be honest, I haven't even set foot in the Gold Saucer yet... been to busy with moving in RL. Maybe I'll get to that soon.

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#25 Apr 14 2015 at 5:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Theonehio wrote:
svlyons wrote:
sandpark wrote:
I was not really wanting this to make dungeons or fates obsolete. Just another option to level. No wait times like fates or dungeons. Just grab a few friends and if the monsters are there you can kill them. Just more options to level than we have now.

The problem with more options is that a new option has to be clearly better in one way or another in order to get people to participate. Players will gravitate toward a single option that is viewed as the optimal option.

So..like ARR now? People gravitate to Dungeons since SE boosted their EXP to compete with FATEs.

Yep, exactly like ARR now. And also exactly like XI throughout its existence. Over time, the one single best option changed from Skillchain based parties to TP burn parties to Abyssea parties (and perhaps to something else after Seekers, but I quit just before Seekers came out). Every time a new option became evident to the community, the previous option wasn't removed. In spite of multiple options existing, there was still really only one option at any time.
#26 Apr 14 2015 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
svlyons wrote:
sandpark wrote:
I was not really wanting this to make dungeons or fates obsolete. Just another option to level. No wait times like fates or dungeons. Just grab a few friends and if the monsters are there you can kill them. Just more options to level than we have now.

The problem with more options is that a new option has to be clearly better in one way or another in order to get people to participate. Players will gravitate toward a single option that is viewed as the optimal option.

So..like ARR now? People gravitate to Dungeons since SE boosted their EXP to compete with FATEs.

Yep, exactly like ARR now. And also exactly like XI throughout its existence. Over time, the one single best option changed from Skillchain based parties to TP burn parties to Abyssea parties (and perhaps to something else after Seekers, but I quit just before Seekers came out). Every time a new option became evident to the community, the previous option wasn't removed. In spite of multiple options existing, there was still really only one option at any time.

I kept making standard skillchain grind parties in addition to those other options. Yes, every time something new comes out people flock to it. Just like now some people only craft and some only chocobo race and some only PvP.

90% of the playerbase can flood dungeons solely if they wish. I just want a decent form of open world grinding even if that 90% doesn't want to join me. I will still join them when not grinding.

Edited, Apr 15th 2015 8:12am by sandpark
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