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#1 Apr 30 2015 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
I've taken a couple long breaks from XIV after giving up on 1.0 and then stopping during 2.0 after getting burned out dungeon grinding low level instances to level up new jobs. I always thought the grass would be and could be greener on the other side trying new MMO's when they release but they always let me down.

So I would go crawling back to FFXI (played off and on over 12 year period) or now XIV. I'm not super well geared, i103 pld, i93 drg. Just finished the 2.55 story line and now working on clearing the extreme primals and maybe will try some coil and see what happens. maybe get to or clear T9 before expansion hits, but I only play maybe 10 hours a week so I'm not holding my breath.

WALL OF TEXT OMG WHAT IS MY POINT!! Well my point is I really suck at Titan Ex. I always feel like I know what I'm doing for any encounter, always watch the videos sometimes twice before doing something new, and try to not get carried too much despite being under geared when paired with people i120+. But I "beat" Titan Ex for the first time last night and god dang that is a crazy fight, even with half of the group being mostly i110-i120 with a few people around i90 (I was on drg). I don't know if it's my mediocre PC or latency but even trying to wait for weight of the land and immediately running with the group stacked up I get hit 50% of the time instant death. Granted I've only done like 4-5 runs with DF maybe 20 attempts and got my kill but for the first time in this game I felt helpless. Should I just practice more and do it more often to get over this or is this a fight that is just truly harsh on anyone without split second reflexes and good latency.

My other question is greed etiquette for tower runs. I don't have every job leveled to 50 but do plan on leveling certain jobs and gearing for them but I feel bad rolling greed for an item that could be level 15 or something. The thought could be hey if you want the item run as that class and roll need but I do feel guilty especially in WoD not so much ST and who cares about CT unless you want for glamour. I see max geared tanks in ST rolling need on every tank item that drops when they clearly have gear 20 or 30 ilevels higher now the argument can be for glamour but man it's somewhat irritating, or any job that does that for that matter.

Any thoughts? Thanks for reading, had to do something waiting for NFL draft to start! Go Jets!
#2 Apr 30 2015 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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Titan HM/EX is a popular target for people to cry lag because a lot feel it's just an "accepted fact" that it lags. There's some other cases but people usually say titan because it's one of the few fights you can get knocked off (so you'll see "lag!" excuse more in Titan and Leviathan than you will any other fight in the game.)

Honestly, it sounds like you're just not reacting fast enough and I've noticed this with some people. If you're stalling even a split second too long that's basically it. The only lag issue we've had was prior to 2.0 launch and early 2.0 when you can be 720 feet away from an AoE mark and still get hit, that was actual flawed design, but they've long fixed that.

Greed wise...no matter what you'll always have that one person who doesn't even have the job unlocked greeding on items, so greed whatever you want. You can be the nice one and only take what you have leveled but chances are you'll be the only one in that mind set.

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#3 May 01 2015 at 2:34 AM Rating: Default
I find turning down my graphics settings help, even though the PC runs fine and I do some times get lag.

Titan is a fight that practise makes perfect, its about pre-empting the move instead of waiting for it. Positioning your self ready for the run for what's about to come. I do seem to get hit on things that don't actually hit me but again I adapt to that.
#4 May 01 2015 at 6:45 AM Rating: Excellent
On need/greed runs: I have a 125 bard. The only job I take that into the CT dungeons is ST - because I have all the gear I want from it. I take my underpowered 109 tank into LotA because I want to Need the tank gear for glamours. I take my underpowered 115 BLM into WoD because I want to Need the caster gear.... although I do actually need it there.

I do greed everything I can get my mitts on, though, because you can turn that in for GC seals, and when you need 80,000 of them for the relic quest, you don't squander opportunities to earn them if you can help it.
#5 May 01 2015 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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I greed on everything, every item from every dungeon and every primal/coil etc. I use items for turn-ins for GC Seals, for desynthing and occasionally (WOD for instance) to upgrade gear on my lesser jobs. In the lower level dungeons if a player asks that is obviously not well geared I'm fine with passing and if its FC/LS members I am usually on Teamspeak and know if they want an item before I make my lot. I wouldn't think many people would complain as loot drops are part of the game and in most instances you/they can just run again to try and get a specific tiem. Congratulations on Titan btw - I hated that fight because of the lag until I moved back to my home country and got fibre optic - hey presto all of a sudden I never got hit by weight of the land - so liberating!
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#6 May 03 2015 at 5:22 AM Rating: Decent
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In FFXIV we don't raid, we dance! It's a dance routine. Better memorize the moves.

Here's hoping to more spontaneity and randomness in Heavensward that keeps you on your toes instead of just going through the same exact motions again and again.
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#7 May 04 2015 at 12:17 AM Rating: Default
BrokenFox wrote:
In FFXIV we don't raid, we dance! It's a dance routine. Better memorize the moves.

Here's hoping to more spontaneity and randomness in Heavensward that keeps you on your toes instead of just going through the same exact motions again and again.


Randomness has it's inherent problems. The most crucial issue from a design perspective is making sure the RNG cannot s c r e w you over in a worst-case-scenario. This means that the boss should never be able to behave in a way that a sufficiently geared & skilled group cannot recover from it. Otherwise the encounter comes down to luck which is not acceptable.

This in turn means the boss skills should be balanced in a way that the said group can recover from them in a worst-case-scenario. The conclusion is that the boss will be at it's hardest in a worst-case-scenario, and that scenario should be beatable. The issue is that the worst-case-scenario does not always happen in a random environment. In fact the content becomes generally easier as long as the worst-case-scenario does not happen, while being the easiest in a best-case-scenario. Only those groups having to deal with the encounter at it's worst will face the hardest difficulty, but as it is very easy in FFXIV to repeat failed encounters, the community might just decide to retry if the worst comes to worst.

Either way, it follows that a fully scripted encounter will always provide more challenge because the developers can design the content to always test the players' mettle according to the standards deemed applicable. Randomized encounters on the other hand will have to be designed according to the standards of the worst-case-scenario, making the content easier in a non-worst-case-scenario. That's not to say that randomized content does not have a place in the game (in casual-midcore content for example), but regardless of how much we kick and scream the design issue will not go away.

Though what the issue really is escapes my understanding. There's nothing wrong with having to learn a script; in fact, as you said, many talents in this world are solely about learning a scripted sequence and executing it flawlessly (dancing, playing an instrument.. you name it). Some MMO gamers seem to have a real issue with this for some reason, but I don't see anyone telling a world-famous pianist that what he's doing is not so impressive, as he has "only" learned a script.

Edited, May 4th 2015 6:18am by Hyanmen
#8 May 04 2015 at 3:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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I would say it mostly has to do with fun and variation. I could be way off, but most people I see don't claim that what the top raidining guilds are doing is not impressive. What they say is that it would be more fun if encounters were different and less scripted. It doesn't have to be all of them I guess, but diffrent types of content is always good.

Also, although I do get what you are saying with the pianist analogy, I don't really feel like it is quite the same heh.
#9 May 04 2015 at 4:11 AM Rating: Default
Belcrono wrote:
I would say it mostly has to do with fun and variation. I could be way off, but most people I see don't claim that what the top raidining guilds are doing is not impressive. What they say is that it would be more fun if encounters were different and less scripted. It doesn't have to be all of them I guess, but diffrent types of content is always good.

Also, although I do get what you are saying with the pianist analogy, I don't really feel like it is quite the same heh.


As long as the community is fine that "less scripted" equals "less difficult" then both can co-exist. However to me it seems that some players (not you necessarily) have the mindset that non-scripted encounters are a true test of player skill, when the reality is the complete opposite.

I always liked Nyzul Isle, and I think that kind of template could make for good casual-midcore content, as it was in FFXI.
#10 May 04 2015 at 8:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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As long as the community is fine that "less scripted" equals "less difficult" then both can co-exist. However to me it seems that some players (not you necessarily) have the mindset that non-scripted encounters are a true test of player skill, when the reality is the complete opposite.


I don't agree "less scripted" has to equal "less difficult." In fact, more random can easily be made more difficult.

Personally, though, whether the game moves forward with scripted or random fights, I do think some of the scripted endgame fights are just too hard. Even after being nerfed, some of these fights are just incredibly frustrating, especially with all the mechanics that parties can't recover from if one person makes a mistake. It's one thing if you're in that small demographic of players who can commit to a static, but otherwise, there's nothing fun about beating your head against a virtual wall night after night.

I think easier, random fights without so many killer mechanics are more engaging. I think SE has been on the right track with the more recent Extreme Primals.
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#11 May 04 2015 at 11:08 AM Rating: Default
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
As long as the community is fine that "less scripted" equals "less difficult" then both can co-exist. However to me it seems that some players (not you necessarily) have the mindset that non-scripted encounters are a true test of player skill, when the reality is the complete opposite.


I don't agree "less scripted" has to equal "less difficult." In fact, more random can easily be made more difficult.


Would you care to debate my aformentioned arguments then? I may as well be wrong, but as far as I see it my argument is quite sound.
#12 May 04 2015 at 2:20 PM Rating: Excellent
No need to argue... Take the pace at which fights currently move, but make all mechanics happen randomly, and you basically have savage coil.

But that would be bad game design, because only a sliver of players would ever win.

Scripted content is only hard until everyone memorizes the script, and then it is mindless. Easy random content is easier, but will always be at least slightly engaging. That's basically why the Angry Birds generation of gamers has taken off, and why people love PVP games in which they can never really die.

Just FYI, I do believe scripted fights can be equally difficult (or more difficult, depending on how the fight is tuned). It's just difficult in a different way, and I don't think it's as much fun in the long run. Kind of reminds me of the old-school Nintendo games, where getting through a level just meant repeating it over and over until you learned where all the enemies were.

Edited, May 4th 2015 2:05pm by Thayos

Edited, May 4th 2015 7:40pm by Thayos
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#13 May 04 2015 at 11:04 PM Rating: Default
Thayos wrote:
Take the pace at which fights currently move, but make all mechanics happen randomly, and you basically have savage coil.

No need to argue... Take the pace at which fights currently move, but make all mechanics happen randomly, and you basically have savage coil.


I did argue before why that wouldn't be feasible regardless of the win rate. In your example, if there is even a slight chance that winning would become impossible then it cannot be done since winning or losing should never be a matter of luck.
#14 May 05 2015 at 1:33 AM Rating: Excellent
That is why I say no need to argue. I think we essentially agree on the gist of all this.
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#15 May 05 2015 at 6:45 AM Rating: Excellent
Some of XI's most difficult long form fights ran on scripts, too, especially in {sea} and Limbus. Ultima did its horrible terror + morbol status effect move at 80, 60, 40, and 20% of health. It could be stunned with good timing, but you had to know it was coming to do that. Then after 40% health it started with the Citadel Busters, and everyone knew they had 30 seconds to GTFO and hope that the target somehow survived (usually not. A tank might make it.) Jailer of Love spit out its waves of adds exactly one minute apart, and they followed a very clear pattern of 9 sets of 3 adds before settling into the same ones over and over again. For Odin, you know that Zankenshukin was coming at 9% as soon as he started trash talking, and you better GTFO and hope your tank lived there, too.

I think XI had much larger battle arenas in some cases (some even open world), which allowed for more interesting placement of players and more interesting mechanics for dealing with adds. That, I think, could add some variety and spice to long form fights. We've seen that start with Steps of Faith. I hope to see other large battle arenas in in the future in FFXIV.

Edited, May 5th 2015 1:03pm by Catwho
#16 May 05 2015 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
I think XI had much larger battle arenas in some cases (some even open world), which allowed for more interesting placement of players and more interesting mechanics for dealing with adds. That, I think, could add some variety and spice to long form fights. We've seen that start with Steps of Faith. I hope to see other large battle arenas in in the future in FFXIV.


While true XI also ran on scripts it was more the flexibility of dealing with some of them and the fact "breaking" a script didn't immediate end your run if it's done in a wrong fashion, for example if you "broke" the bosses rotation in outer raz in XI, it doesn't push into a phase that overwhelms you. In XIV, T9 for example if you push into bahamuts favor during a heavensfall you're almost guaranteed to wipe because not only is the bosses rotation at that point of the script is different, but the placement of what you need to do arena wise is also completely different during that phase which said heavensfall kind of ruins and likely to cause a wipe.

XIV's script is a lot more of a song and dance than XI, Xi just has far more variance due to the style of battle and game it is. Yoshi was quite clear in making this game "easy" and "managable due to Duty Finder" so a boss can't exactly "go all out" which is why they tested us with Savage, which is more akin to some of XI's fights in that there's always something to watch for even between phases.

Steps of Faith is the perfect example as to why they stick to the simplistic route - people immediately leave the fight if they get in roulette because they know the common (targeted) player of this game can't handle simple mechanics. It's Pharos Sirus 2.0. Less random does mean more difficulty because it means you have to actually be on your toes for anything, not just what you know will come next. This is why Bahamut in T13 was a good first step - still script but still the type of mechanics means you can't slack off until OH ****! It's 75% better run to the usual corner to avoid the usual mechanic that happens now! That's why in XI being able to stun a lot of stuff cheapened some fights but at the same time they still did far more that you didn't want to run the risk of locking stun out (built resistance+longish recast) on something like Blizzaga IV when what you wanted to stun was something that could actually wipe you.

As much as we want tougher fights and such, it won't happen because everytime they release something even an iota difficult, people cry for nerfs or fail it to the point the general playerbase won't even DO the fight if they end up in it.Chrysalis and Steps of Faith are story fights, thus already on the easy end yet they failed this continually due to simple mechanics. Titan HM/EX is another example. "LAG! LAG! LAG! I WAS OUT OF THAT EVEN THOUGH I WAITED TILL THE CAST BAR FINISHED TO MOVE!" and so on. Shiva you rarely hear excuses because post Diamond Dust it's another huge song and dance but no one claims lag because you can't fall off the arena.

When you think about it, Shiva is one of the few that actually has a random element, e.g te 50/50 shot of going into Brand or Staff, even stuff like that spices up a fight a bit and that's just a small thing, something on a higher level would be nice. This is why when you do phase shift in some fights, at the right or wrong times, you have people who know the song and dance as a second nature get thrown off or even killed because they go to the usual spot for the next mechanic but it ends up being the wrong one and die or you push Phoenix as he spawns an additional Bennu and so on.

It really depends on the type of "random" people think about, 100/80/70 etc type of scripting is in every game since thats easy AI programming, it's what's done in between tht really makes fights more interesting, kind of why Yoshi gets insulted if you tell him Final Coil is easier than second (it is).

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#17 May 06 2015 at 2:49 AM Rating: Decent
Theonehio wrote:
[quote=Catwho]XIV's script is a lot more of a song and dance than XI, Xi just has far more variance due to the style of battle and game it is. Yoshi was quite clear in making this game "easy" and "managable due to Duty Finder" so a boss can't exactly "go all out" which is why they tested us with Savage, which is more akin to some of XI's fights in that there's always something to watch for even between phases.


Every single fight in FFXI without exception would be completely and utterly obliterated by every single group that struggles on Savage Coil. The only sliver of hope XI ever had was the design choice to limit the amount of retries you get if you happen to fail. This obviously makes it "harder" to win in an artificial way because you get to practice less. Had XI allowed for unlimited and immediate retries like XIV does all the content would have been a complete joke right from the get-go.

Moreover, the dev team's struggle to create truly varied encounters has always been immediately clear by looking at the ways they tried to circumvent the extremely simplistic combat mechanics. Either the variance of contents depended on environmental gimmicks such as salvage cells and nyzul floor layouts or the "most difficult" encounters were made to be that way by making them last for ages (AV & PW anyone?). For how little the devs had to work with they did a good enough job though, aside from the AV fiasco. Such desperate measures for "hard" contents will never be needed in FFXIV and fortunately so.

In less than two years the ARR devs have already went above and beyond the encounter mechanic variety that XI ever had, while admittedly having less environmental gimmicks. I only wish this could be a matter of opinion.
#18 May 06 2015 at 6:38 AM Rating: Excellent
I'd like to see 8 people at 75 cap take down Dynamis Lord! I've heard it done with 12-14, but usually you were badass if you did it with anything less than a full alliance. Considering it was designed for 64 people....

XI's larger scale of events and slightly slower pace allowed for better recovery after disasters for some fights. Even then, I got my Pandemonium Warden clear because our 99 PLD had on the infinite reraise armor set from Abyssea and zombie'd it.
#19 May 06 2015 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Every single fight in FFXI without exception would be completely and utterly obliterated by every single group that struggles on Savage Coil. The only sliver of hope XI ever had was the design choice to limit the amount of retries you get if you happen to fail. This obviously makes it "harder" to win in an artificial way because you get to practice less. Had XI allowed for unlimited and immediate retries like XIV does all the content would have been a complete joke right from the get-go.


In hindsight, the "limited practice" design choice is something I've often thought about regarding FFXI. While it had drawbacks, it also fit in nicely with XI's other battle system elements, and I wish some of those elements could be more prominent in XIV.

In XIV, not only can you queue up for endgame battles whenever you'd like, but it also doesn't really matter which job you queue up as -- the strategy never changes. Tanks, DPS and healers always do the exact same things. So in addition to limitless practice attempts, there's not even any need to practice using different party setups. To compensate for this, you have these heavily scripted battles filled with mechanics that will wipe you with even minimal mistakes. As a result, "practicing" is mostly memorizing the boss scripts and "reacting" preemptively.

In FFXI, not only did you have limited practice attempts, but fights often unfolded differently with various party setups. The healer and support jobs usually took on completely different roles depending on the type of tanks or DPS the party had. Or, if the party didn't have great DPS, then kiting may be employed to extend fights and minimize damage to the group. If people made mistakes and the party started dying, then each person's 2-hour ability often provided the chance to turn the tides and regain footing. Loading up on potions, ethers, etc., was also a "must" for certain groups before content got nerfed or people grew way overgeared years later.

While the community often settled upon the optimal setup to make these fights easier, it was anything but "easy" to jump into these fights with a group of friends, work out a strategy and get the win. True, it didn't take weeks of a group bashing its head against a wall... but why should it? To me, that's more an issue of insanity than challenge.

Really, I just found FFXI's battle system to be so much more engaging and satisfying. I liked being able to win a fight in a few tries without having to memorize a 10-minute YouTube video. Heck, in FFXIV, no party could survive the first two stages of a coil turn (and probably not even one stage) without first memorizing several minutes of a YouTube video. And while memorization is certainly a skill, I found the "easier" battles of FFXIV to be more comprehensive tests of skill. XI's battles didn't use memorization as a crutch; they relied on planning, team work and the use of each party's unique abilities to cope with various situations. Those tests of skill are largely absent from FFXIV.

I do love XIV, but I really wish this development team could find some kind of middle ground between "you don't stand a chance unless you've memorized this!" and "here's a fight you can win on your first time through if you and your team are creative and really work well together."

Edited, May 6th 2015 1:06pm by Thayos
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#20 May 06 2015 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
Catwho wrote:
I think XI had much larger battle arenas in some cases (some even open world), which allowed for more interesting placement of players and more interesting mechanics for dealing with adds. That, I think, could add some variety and spice to long form fights. We've seen that start with Steps of Faith. I hope to see other large battle arenas in in the future in FFXIV.


While true XI also ran on scripts it was more the flexibility of dealing with some of them and the fact "breaking" a script didn't immediate end your run if it's done in a wrong fashion, for example if you "broke" the bosses rotation in outer raz in XI, it doesn't push into a phase that overwhelms you. In XIV, T9 for example if you push into bahamuts favor during a heavensfall you're almost guaranteed to wipe because not only is the bosses rotation at that point of the script is different, but the placement of what you need to do arena wise is also completely different during that phase which said heavensfall kind of ruins and likely to cause a wipe.

XIV's script is a lot more of a song and dance than XI, Xi just has far more variance due to the style of battle and game it is. Yoshi was quite clear in making this game "easy" and "managable due to Duty Finder" so a boss can't exactly "go all out" which is why they tested us with Savage, which is more akin to some of XI's fights in that there's always something to watch for even between phases.

Steps of Faith is the perfect example as to why they stick to the simplistic route - people immediately leave the fight if they get in roulette because they know the common (targeted) player of this game can't handle simple mechanics. It's Pharos Sirus 2.0. Less random does mean more difficulty because it means you have to actually be on your toes for anything, not just what you know will come next. This is why Bahamut in T13 was a good first step - still script but still the type of mechanics means you can't slack off until OH ****! It's 75% better run to the usual corner to avoid the usual mechanic that happens now! That's why in XI being able to stun a lot of stuff cheapened some fights but at the same time they still did far more that you didn't want to run the risk of locking stun out (built resistance+longish recast) on something like Blizzaga IV when what you wanted to stun was something that could actually wipe you.

As much as we want tougher fights and such, it won't happen because everytime they release something even an iota difficult, people cry for nerfs or fail it to the point the general playerbase won't even DO the fight if they end up in it.Chrysalis and Steps of Faith are story fights, thus already on the easy end yet they failed this continually due to simple mechanics. Titan HM/EX is another example. "LAG! LAG! LAG! I WAS OUT OF THAT EVEN THOUGH I WAITED TILL THE CAST BAR FINISHED TO MOVE!" and so on. Shiva you rarely hear excuses because post Diamond Dust it's another huge song and dance but no one claims lag because you can't fall off the arena.

When you think about it, Shiva is one of the few that actually has a random element, e.g te 50/50 shot of going into Brand or Staff, even stuff like that spices up a fight a bit and that's just a small thing, something on a higher level would be nice. This is why when you do phase shift in some fights, at the right or wrong times, you have people who know the song and dance as a second nature get thrown off or even killed because they go to the usual spot for the next mechanic but it ends up being the wrong one and die or you push Phoenix as he spawns an additional Bennu and so on.

It really depends on the type of "random" people think about, 100/80/70 etc type of scripting is in every game since thats easy AI programming, it's what's done in between tht really makes fights more interesting, kind of why Yoshi gets insulted if you tell him Final Coil is easier than second (it is).



I agree allot of what you say.. But I am one that suffers from lag sometimes and it is there. Problem is allot of the fights dont compensate for lag or forgive. Titan HM is still one of those that kills me with lag even though I have beat it probably close to a hundred times or more. Some times the lag is there and sometimes it is not. You really have to have bad lag to get hit by landslide though.. For me it is weight of the land that gets me and sometimes the bombs. My lag was bad on my laptop and then I fixed something and it got better. Went to the ps4 and didn't have lag at all for a long time. Then we got hit every-night from around I think 7:00 at night to around 10:00. Then that went away. Now it hits me periodically again in the last few weeks. It stinks because it seems the lag I get actually make s the game unplayable now, makes it even hard to craft or gather. People say all you do is have to memorize the fight and the lag should not make a difference, bull. I have memorized it. I have solo healed it too several times.

I think the appeal too this game for allot of people is it is easy. Almost all fights really require mainly memorization. Everyone fights every boss the same way no matter who you run with as long as people know the fights. This game pretty much hands you everything through tomes and you dont even need to be a good player.
Actually the hardest part of the game is finding people who actually want to learn/memorize some of the hardest fights without quitting. Once you memorize a fight it is easy as long as you have other who have memorized it too.
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#21 May 06 2015 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:


I think XI had much larger battle arenas in some cases (some even open world), which allowed for more interesting placement of players and more interesting mechanics for dealing with adds. That, I think, could add some variety and spice to long form fights. We've seen that start with Steps of Faith. I hope to see other large battle arenas in in the future in FFXIV.

Edited, May 5th 2015 1:03pm by Catwho



Agreed.. That's why I liked Abyssea so much, most were open world fights. You could use the terrain to beat things and different stratagies.
My most memorable fight was in abyssea where Tesee and I took down a boss with the two of us and most alliances could not beat it. She was Monk and I was Whm when that was one of the best combos for a while. We had about 50 people watching at the end and cheering us on and a few were there to try and steal I am sure... Man it felt great and a huge sense of accomplishment.

We had a static for empyrean weapon and it was 4 of us and we took down glavoid when full alliance could not even brew it sometimes. That feels great when you do something like that.

This stuff can not even happen in this game. They dont even allow you to enter anything with out a full party.
That is the stuff I like.

There was that giant worm in the past that you were lucky to find and it would suck you under ground after a while and I had no idea it even did that. We came across it and my friend grabbed it a a pld and completely freeked us when it took us underground to continue the fight. We did it with 3 people and it was amazing. i mean it was soo cool running across this just out in the open. Never in this game. To me there was allot I didn't like about FFXI but this kind of stuff made it worth it and a group of good players could come up with ways of under-manning stuff.


Would it now be cool to do any of crystal tower with a few really good people. That would be awsume.

Everything feels like it is on rails in this game.



Edited, May 6th 2015 4:49pm by Nashred
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#22 May 07 2015 at 7:57 AM Rating: Decent
Catwho wrote:
Some of XI's most difficult long form fights ran on scripts, too, especially in {sea} and Limbus. Ultima did its horrible terror + morbol status effect move at 80, 60, 40, and 20% of health. It could be stunned with good timing, but you had to know it was coming to do that. Then after 40% health it started with the Citadel Busters, and everyone knew they had 30 seconds to GTFO and hope that the target somehow survived (usually not. A tank might make it.) Jailer of Love spit out its waves of adds exactly one minute apart, and they followed a very clear pattern of 9 sets of 3 adds before settling into the same ones over and over again. For Odin, you know that Zankenshukin was coming at 9% as soon as he started trash talking, and you better GTFO and hope your tank lived there, too.

I think XI had much larger battle arenas in some cases (some even open world), which allowed for more interesting placement of players and more interesting mechanics for dealing with adds. That, I think, could add some variety and spice to long form fights. We've seen that start with Steps of Faith. I hope to see other large battle arenas in in the future in FFXIV.

Edited, May 5th 2015 1:03pm by Catwho


Script fights is a good point, as a Healer doing something that required running and curing was fun. Otherwise it was sit there CTRL+2 or +3 depending on cure required.. I can tell you doing that for hours on end was hard work staying awake.

As much as people may not like the current XIV grind, XI grind regardless on doing what was tedious. The hardest part was always staying awake.

The likes of KIRIN as a healer I found fun, it was constant, running around, raising, cure spam, watching the DD do his WS and attempt to keep him alive before he gets one shotted.
I keep hearing things that XI was harder etc etc, it required people to know the fights and know what to do. Those on Vent add much more ability to adapt because you have some one who can tell you live what to do.

With XIV even if you watch a YouTube video and have some one in your ear, you simply don't have enough time to react. If you want difficulty in XIV that's what Coil is for, you have plenty of time to do them before they nerf/echo. I my self spammed T9 last night and it was fun and mayhem. In XIV I can learn hard ish fights in a few hours or a bit more, XI took me about 30 minutes to learn it. I don't remember ever taking more than an hour to learn any fight.

XI also had weekly/daily limits in place which slowed down everything, even proceeding on sotry quests was annoying because it was "Wait till next day" before you can activate a CS. Looking back at XI what problems existed that slowed people down?
Took forever to level
Limitations in place: Limits on certain end game runs, next day CS and even competing for drops (that's another important detail people forget). I didn't enjoy waiting for POP time in Sky or competing with RMTs or other Sky runs for drops.
Lack of guides/help for even simple tasks: Let's face it the help provided in XI was ridiculous, a simple quest required keeping an internet page open all the time. The amount of quests I remember getting "stuck" on or not remembering exactly where I was in the quest....
Sitting doing nothing: How many hours of seeking or attempting to organise parties, sitting waiting for "gathering" for end game..

XI wasn't hard it just had nothing to help people actually play the game. In all the years I played XI how much was wasted with the above? If anyone ever says XIV is easy I assume you have cleared every Coil possible and find them a walk through?
#23 May 07 2015 at 9:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Lonix wrote:
As much as people may not like the current XIV grind, XI grind regardless on doing what was tedious


Unless you haven't done a lot of XIV content, it's the same exact kind of tedium in XIV, only in a different format. "Tedium" tends to come from the unnecessary stuff thrown in for the sake of grinds, e.g Animus Books and Nexus/Mahatma lights/Dungeon KIs that are RNG "drops" rather than actual content. (Something that even XI didn't do as it usually got tossed onto an spawned NM or spawned fight ala Abyssea style where you could even force higher drop rates in certain content.)

Quote:
With XIV even if you watch a YouTube video and have some one in your ear, you simply don't have enough time to react.


Also take into consideration this game isn't exactly hiding the design of it being wonky for some people and some confirmed latency issues (Mudras for example), so if your personal net is terrible, you'll have a terrible time no matter what which will add difficulty, but only artificially. So when a lot of the difficulty comes with needing to avoid ground AoEs of some kind or charging enemies (hi to you T12) if your net doesn't hold up, it turns something insanely easy into something borderline impossible, but it may not always be the game's fault (Titan for example.)

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XI also had weekly/daily limits in place which slowed down everything


Every MMO does. XIV is chock full of them in the worst way possible. In XI, you could rotate content and still had side content you could do that wasn't weekly or daily based, but currency based in a way, i.e Burning Circles of some kind or activities like Besieged, just something other than the gear treadmill. In XIV, the ONLY end-game content is usually weekly locked until they obsolete the drops, then you can spam it. At current time, all content is unlocked but you still have a cap on your progression weekly (450 poetics) if you can't do Final Coil, which based on census data by players and parsing the lodestone, the majority of the playerbase are still on T9. So limits aren't part of an argument as that's to keep people subbed more than anything and the more MMOs you play, the sooner you realize this.

Especially when it comes to XIV, it's blatantly obvious they limit things for the sake of keeping people subbed because there truly isn't that much progression content with the vertical progression design - when you obsolete all of your prior content, you kind of create a bottleneck in the final step while waiting for the next update, in this case, the expansion that Yoshida confirmed is basically on the level of 2.x being that I130 is actually TOO HIGH for Heavensward 3.0 meaning that progression actually isn't happening until August/September.

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If anyone ever says XIV is easy I assume you have cleared every Coil possible and find them a walk through?


Yep. And if you actually did it and actually take part in the "end-game community" it's accepted fact that Final Coil is the easiest content in the game when it comes to "End-game" content. So much so that Yoshida gets insulted if you say it. They're mechanic driven but...the hardest part is if you have common sense, meet your DPS check and know how to work with people. Binding Coil 1 is beyond easy, the only difficulty was T2 and T5 in 2.0, T5 held people because it was -full- of instant death mechanics. And if you can sit there and say "Nothing in XI was difficult", instant death mechanics isn't difficulty either.

Ever notice the majority of Second Coil and Final Coil had and has tons of instant death/wipe mechanics? If you took them out they would beyond cake walk. Get caught in a DB in T9? Well hey guess what you wiped everyone. That's not difficulty. Both game have different battle system and mechanic styles - Here, Yoshi is afraid to give us actual stats (yet let enemies use more variety of skills and spells that enhances them in various ways) yet in XI you also had mechanics like Geomancy and Blue Magic, which are on a whole different level of gameplay because in XIV, what skill combo gives you traits and bonus attributes? What spells boosts your party's attributes or perma debuffs the boss that isn't part of your "rotation"? XI is a very different game in setup which means the difficulty would be on a different level..where most of ARR's difficulty is instant death mechanics and the player who joins that says: "I LEARN BY DOING SO I'M GOING TO WIPE YOU GUYS FOR THE NEXT 2 HOURS IF YOU DON'T RAGE QUIT."

Have -you- even cleared Coil? Remember, Savage Coil is done purely for a title and even stated by the lead guy himself is the: "Untuned and non balanced version", meaning you're technically not even supposed to have seen this version, but people wanted something tougher and sadly, the fact people were asking for tougher content to the point Yoshida said he doesn't want to make the game "too hard" basically means that the game actually is fairly easy. ARR is far from a tough MMO..GW2 is tougher..TERA is tougher. Even Ragnarok Online is tougher. But they met their goal in targeting a specific playerbase, so whether it's tough or not is more of a personal desire, but in terms of what SE wanted? It's not difficult at all and they did it that way to target newer players and draw in fresh blood. In all actuality.
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#24 May 07 2015 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:

Have -you- even cleared Coil? Remember, Savage Coil is done purely for a title and even stated by the lead guy himself is the: "Untuned and non balanced version", meaning you're technically not even supposed to have seen this version, but people wanted something tougher and sadly, the fact people were asking for tougher content to the point Yoshida said he doesn't want to make the game "too hard" basically means that the game actually is fairly easy. ARR is far from a tough MMO..GW2 is tougher..TERA is tougher. Even Ragnarok Online is tougher. But they met their goal in targeting a specific playerbase, so whether it's tough or not is more of a personal desire, but in terms of what SE wanted? It's not difficult at all and they did it that way to target newer players and draw in fresh blood. In all actuality.


Pretty sure the reason why the game is financially successful is because it manages to cater to both the casual and hardcore crowds in a very respectable manner. I don't find it to be super hard, but it is challenging. But not because of me, but because I have to rely on 7 other people to also do good. And there is the real challenge. A cohesive group that is dedicated can go a very long way very quickly. But generally a great player without a equally great team is just going to end up frustrated.

Final Coil takes teamwork and intuition. If / then scenarios. T10 has enrage punishments for mechanics fails and randomized patterns in final phase. Tether mechanics in T11 require teamwork. T12 has everyone doing drastically different things in a limited space. T13 is muscle, killing adds in order, and proper persistent aoe placement.

But the fcob content is easy, well now it is post nerf, provided one mistake wont wipe the party and people are geared enough to where dps checks can be met by even the crappiest controller button mashers. Weak links wont break the party all the time. But prior to 10% echo and everyone being ilvl 120-130, focusing on maximizing damage with a t9 weapon while learning and dealing with random mechanics could get complex. Meeting hard DPS checks while stacking and dodging is like patting your head and rubbing your stomach at the same time, generally. But, like all things, it becomes clockwork with practice.




Edited, May 7th 2015 12:26pm by Valkayree
#25 May 07 2015 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
I'd like to see 8 people at 75 cap take down Dynamis Lord! I've heard it done with 12-14, but usually you were badass if you did it with anything less than a full alliance. Considering it was designed for 64 people....

XI's larger scale of events and slightly slower pace allowed for better recovery after disasters for some fights. Even then, I got my Pandemonium Warden clear because our 99 PLD had on the infinite reraise armor set from Abyssea and zombie'd it.

Recovering after a summons' Astral Flow is neigh impossible. Almost always results in instant wipe, and the Summoner is like on top of the alliance, not going anywhere.

I think 8 vs Dynamis Lord is possible. About 3 RDM/DRK should do it.

Edited, May 7th 2015 4:02pm by TwilightSkye
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