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Why do people complain about undercutting?Follow

#1 Jun 05 2015 at 10:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I notice a lot of ppl on my server say "selling coils is pointless now because xxxxx person drove the price down to the point where its not worth the effort" Im thinking "Well I bet xxxx person is making PLENTY of money... and it must be worth it if hes still doing it.. try selling for the same price when hes not online to steal some of his business"?

I mean the way I look at it I can compete with the guy thats shouting right next to me for the same price and might get 5 ppl, for 5 mil each thus making 25 mil and he might get 8 and make 40mil OR I could shout for 2.5 mil each and get 30 and thus make... 75 mil,... so sure Im doing "more for less" but eventually that "less" adds up, and itll add up further whenever everyone tells their friends how much cheaper my services are, now if i only get 3-5 then yeah I just wasted time.... but with prices like that youre sure to skyrocket and pretty much have a monopoly in that market.


Selling cheaper than your competitors to steal their customers is a viable business strategy in the real world (just look at Walmart.. its the ONLY reason that horrible, evil company hasnt imploded), so why is it frowned upon in most MMOs?
#2 Jun 05 2015 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
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I don't sell endgame content so I'm speaking purely from speculation here..

But I'd say it's probably one of two things:
1: They're afraid of the market crashing. So people get used to paying Cheapy McDiscount over there a certain price and then expect that to just be the price everywhere. So a more expensive competitor can't compete. In any venture like this, there's going to be a floor below which you feel your time is being wasted or could be better spent. That floor is different for everyone.

2: They think it's rude. No seriously, this is legit. If I'm advertising my service for a particular amount of money and then you walk up next to me and advertise it for my price -50%, I'm going to feel pretty insulted. Not that you're competing with me, but that you're doing it in this way.

I, personally, get fed up with market board undercutters. I can't even count the number of times I've put something up that's consistently sold for, let's say, 150k. I list it for 150k and go on about my business. The next day I check and it's being listed for 8k.

I'm not kidding. That happened. This isn't undercutting to compete. It's undercutting to obliterate a market beyond any hope of repair.
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#3 Jun 06 2015 at 12:00 AM Rating: Good
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Well as far as number 1 goes I just say.... if i cant compete then the other guy won... and did so fair and square Id just have to find another way to make gil

as for 2... it may not be "fair" or rude... but its fair game and legal.. as for your going from 150k to 8k example now THAT just extreme... but in that circumstance all that would happen is ppl will stop selling that item because its no longer worth the time, you wont be able to find it on the market anymore but ppl.. will still ant it... thats when supply in demand come in.... soon youll be eh only one restocking said items and you can set the price and have it sell for what you want.... until he undercutters come back eventually then the cycle starts over again
#4 Jun 06 2015 at 2:09 AM Rating: Good
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I've never really understood why people complain about undercutting(specifically in games). Then again, I've never really understood why people paid for raid spots. Actually I don't really understand why I'm in this thread, but while I'm here I might as well play devil's advocate...

Walmart is able to sell their goods cheaper for the same reason many people think of them as a 'terrible, evil company'. If they wanted to be seen as a company that enriches the environment and helps people without higher education earn a livable wage with benefits, they'd have to sell their products for far more than you would pay for them elsewhere to offset the costs. Capitalism folks, it's not all ponies and rainbows.. but if it were, they'd still be cheaper at Walmart Smiley: sly

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#5 Jun 06 2015 at 6:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Well as far as number 1 goes I just say.... if i cant compete then the other guy won... and did so fair and square Id just have to find another way to make gil

Even if a player "wins" in this way, it could be a Pyrrhic victory.
#6 Jun 06 2015 at 6:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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As an 'end-game crafter" (4 star) I don't complain about it unless it's absolutely retarded. For example:

Platinum Accessories - 430k Currently
400-440k Last 20 sold
Mine - 430k
- 430k
Dumbass - 170k
- 120k

There's absolutely no reason to ever dramatically undercut when not only could YOU make a profit, but all you do is floor the market on items which in turn makes crafters less willing to make x items if you're flooring it because you either don't like making gil (it's largely useless but having gil for materia and such is never a bad thing) or you're just purposefully trying to undercut a particular person.

Not only does it cost 320-400k to make a particular item, but you selling it from 100k or less makes it worthless to craft and put on marketbard. Undercutting is fine when it's reasonable, trying to sell first and so on...but flooring items not only makes you look like an idiot it completely kills the market. Comparing the JP server I play on with 2 of the NA servers i play on..it's definitely done more on NA servers because I guess the influx of crafters or people who love to kill markets for the sake of it.

As for offering services...I do it for free because..what would you be paying me for? I used my own money and time to get to 4 star..you're supplying me material or I'm burning off what's left of mine..why would i charge you to make an item at that point? That's why undercutting on craft services I just laugh at..but on the MB..it gets fairly annoying when people crash markets for ***** and giggles.



Edited, Jun 6th 2015 5:51am by Theonehio
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#7 Jun 06 2015 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I've never really understood why people complain about undercutting(specifically in games). Then again, I've never really understood why people paid for raid spots. Actually I don't really understand why I'm in this thread, but while I'm here I might as well play devil's advocate...

Walmart is able to sell their goods cheaper for the same reason many people think of them as a 'terrible, evil company'. If they wanted to be seen as a company that enriches the environment and helps people without higher education earn a livable wage with benefits, they'd have to sell their products for far more than you would pay for them elsewhere to offset the costs. Capitalism folks, it's not all ponies and rainbows.. but if it were, they'd still be cheaper at Walmart Smiley: sly




I can think of a few reasons people do it:


A) theyre not in a FC or Ls that raids

B) They cant do it in PF because they dont meet the "must have experience" or "multiple clears" requirements.

c) They have 0 hope of doing it in DF unless everyone know what theyre doing and if everyone knew what they weer doing they wouldnt be in DF to begin with.

D) ever if you tried to set up a progression party youd get no one as youd be sitting ther for 30+ mins before the group got even half full and by that time pl would start dropping out of the party etc etc


So erase those four things what option do you have left besides paying?
#8 Jun 06 2015 at 8:41 AM Rating: Decent
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i see brd legs in t12 give like 50 something dex whereas every other brd il130 gear gives like 30 something dex... umm is that a typo or something or are those legs just THAT OP? lol
#9 Jun 06 2015 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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I got an item that been on the board for 3 weeks now. People undercut so that theirs sells first. The problem with that is, it causes a chain reaction, leading to a market crash, and tons of items before this chain reaction started, never gets sold.

That said, I dont contribute to undercutting sprees. I choose the current rate and no more. If it don't sell, oh well. Not gonna stress myself out over it.

Edited, Jun 6th 2015 11:06am by TwilightSkye
#10 Jun 06 2015 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
i see brd legs in t12 give like 50 something dex whereas every other brd il130 gear gives like 30 something dex... umm is that a typo or something or are those legs just THAT OP? lol


Quite honestly you're not looking at the dex on brd gear - you're looking at the crit rate, which is why up until t12 your BIS pants are the Kirimu pants overmelded.

TwilightSkye wrote:
I got an item that been on the board for 3 weeks now. People undercut so that theirs sells first. The problem with that is, it causes a chain reaction, leading to a market crash, and tons of items before this chain reaction started, never gets sold.

That said, I dont contribute to undercutting sprees. I choose the current rate and no more. If it don't sell, oh well. Not gonna stress myself out over it.

Edited, Jun 6th 2015 11:06am by TwilightSkye


Yep, Wootz Spear on my server for example;

[1,200,800
1,110,000
987,000]
^ This is appropriate as you're barely making a profit at this point.
832,000
650,000
647,900
340,800
340,400
316,720
280,000

All HQ.

Edited, Jun 6th 2015 8:34am by Theonehio
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#11 Jun 06 2015 at 12:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Its really just supply and demand, nothing more complicated.

A ton of people are top-tier at this point so the supply of providers far far outweighs the number of buyers, both for selling endgame content and MB items. The way gatherers work, the supply of materials is near limitless so nothing is really rare. Someone with 50 DoH and DoL can pretty much self supply, go gather all the mats you need in a few hours (only limiting factor might be clusters or unspoiled nodes), then sit for 15 minutes and make an entire set of gear. Or 10 sets of gear. Then take those 10 sets of newly crafted gear, multiply that by the 500 crafters per server who can make it, and there you go. Alot of those people self supplied, in that their cost was essentially zero, except for time. So any money at all is profit for them, so they could care less about your 400k history and will just sell it for half, hoping for a quick sale.

The people who do get upset are the omni-crafters, the guy who basically studies the MB like its his job, has spreadsheets for everything, analyzes and takes it VERY seriously. But its hard to do in this game, unless you dedicate serious time to it, and even then its often a losing battle. Because for every serious player who is really into it there are teenagers, stoners, and 1,000,000 casual players who just shrug and list something at or below cost. Plenty of players never really bother to learn even how the MB works...its why you'll see dozens of items listed for 1 gil. If you're playing to make gil, you'd never waste the MB slot.
#12 Jun 06 2015 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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Loris wrote:
Its really just supply and demand, nothing more complicated.


True to an extent - On some servers though, when there's enough supply to meet demand..no one plays undercut or even gouge. It stays balanced (likely due to RMT keeping prices steady, believe it or not.) When it's say Wootz items and very few are up and high demand..people undercut like crazy to the point of making NO profit. Normally you'd want to make more profit being one of the few who can meet the demand so you essentially set the price. Set it up for 1.2m..joe blow comes along and drops it to 540k for no reason. After you calculate the mat cost+shard/crystal/cluster cost, good chance you're only making 200-400k at best depending on how you went about mat acquisition. So while any profit is a profit..most people normally would prefer to make 400k over 20k.

Quote:
The way gatherers work, the supply of materials is near limitless so nothing is really rare


This is the issue though - It's more along the lines of the materials that come from the coils or certain ex primals. This is why some items remain fairly high and why undercutting is just silly. Garuda furniture and weapons for example are very cheap because HM/EX is spammed like crazy - Ramuh, Moogle Ex, T2 and T5 aren't as spammed but the materials are fairly pricy. So when the materials cost more than the finished product..there's a problem.

A LARGE problem. Basic gathering sure, prevents rare items due to the availability, but it's more the harder to make stuff where undercutting is actually when you don't want the market to bottom out.

Quote:
Plenty of players never really bother to learn even how the MB works...its why you'll see dozens of items listed for 1 gil. If you're playing to make gil, you'd never waste the MB slot.


That's when I turn their 1g listing into 100-700g per item to NPCs. Hell I've made 520k yesterday flipping stuff from the MB to NPC or crafting into finished products. You'd think people would just npc stuff when a lot of items they do list on MB goes for more to them.

Quote:
So any money at all is profit for them, so they could care less about your 400k history and will just sell it for half, hoping for a quick sale.


While this is true, it just reinforces that they could make 400k instead of 110k, because if they list multiple for 110k someone else will come along and undercut them then they undercut that person as it was obvious they wanted quick sales and then the market crashes and thus no one truly wins lol.
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#13 Jun 06 2015 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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There's a difference between undercutting to sell something first and undercutting because you're goddamned moron. If something sells regularly for 100,000 and you put one on sale for 99,999, that's undercutting to sell. If you put one on sale for 50,000, that's you being a goddamned moron. Either way, your item is at the top of the list and is going to sell first, but in the second case, you're losing over half the money you could me making and ******* up the market for everyone else in the process.
#14 Jun 06 2015 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
I can think of a few reasons people do it:


A) theyre not in a FC or Ls that raids

B) They cant do it in PF because they dont meet the "must have experience" or "multiple clears" requirements.

c) They have 0 hope of doing it in DF unless everyone know what theyre doing and if everyone knew what they weer doing they wouldnt be in DF to begin with.

D) ever if you tried to set up a progression party youd get no one as youd be sitting ther for 30+ mins before the group got even half full and by that time pl would start dropping out of the party etc etc


So erase those four things what option do you have left besides paying?


Playing a game that is worth a damn?

All kidding aside though, this just makes me think of something I was talking about in another thread. MMOs are social games. I don't see anything wrong with requiring players to communicate and network to get things set up and knocked down.

A) Pretty easily remedied. It's not hard to find a FC or LS that raids if you're actively seeking one.

B) I don't know what PF is. I must be a noob.

C) Difficult content should be excluded from PF, DF and any other F. The players should be their own finders for content that requires any amount of planning and/or communication. If you really want to tackle harder content, you should at least be attentive enough to find other people who want to do it.

D) I don't play XIV, but for quite a while I was the leader of an HNMLS in XI. I was an officer in my dynamis LS, and everything from raid leader to guild leader in WoW. I never had a problem reaching out to people in MMOs. Again this is another downfall of games being overly accessible and not pushing players to develop relationships and network.

I spent literally the better part of a year getting my first job in FFXI to cap. I wasn't really in any hurry to get to 75 because being where I was still left me with plenty of things to do. I made enough friends, allies, acquaintances, LS mates, ect. that I could probably fill a handful of coil groups with people I met in that relatively short time.

Somewhat relative tangent....


Remember this?


If they'd followed through with this idea it would have worked wonders for them. Blizzard has battlenet, TERA now has Steam... hopefully going forward companies will realize just how important networking and community are to MMO health.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#15 Jun 06 2015 at 7:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
B) I don't know what PF is. I must be a noob.

C) Difficult content should be excluded from PF, DF and any other F. The players should be their own finders for content that requires any amount of planning and/or communication. If you really want to tackle harder content, you should at least be attentive enough to find other people who want to do it.


PF is the Party Finder which is a system by which you can put together premade parties to do content with. Unlike the Duty Finder, the Party Finder is limited to your own server and is not random in any way.

Given that you didn't know that and don't play the game, you probably shouldn't comment about what it should contain or how FFXIV doesn't have social interaction.
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#16 Jun 06 2015 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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Turin wrote:
There's a difference between undercutting to sell something first and undercutting because you're goddamned moron. If something sells regularly for 100,000 and you put one on sale for 99,999, that's undercutting to sell. If you put one on sale for 50,000, that's you being a goddamned moron. Either way, your item is at the top of the list and is going to sell first, but in the second case, you're losing over half the money you could me making and ******* up the market for everyone else in the process.


This.. except if the person undercuts by just 1 gil I never buy it. That ****'s cheap Smiley: lol In a case like that I'd undercut by 5 or 10k.
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#17 Jun 06 2015 at 9:48 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
I can think of a few reasons people do it:


A) theyre not in a FC or Ls that raids

B) They cant do it in PF because they dont meet the "must have experience" or "multiple clears" requirements.

c) They have 0 hope of doing it in DF unless everyone know what theyre doing and if everyone knew what they weer doing they wouldnt be in DF to begin with.

D) ever if you tried to set up a progression party youd get no one as youd be sitting ther for 30+ mins before the group got even half full and by that time pl would start dropping out of the party etc etc


So erase those four things what option do you have left besides paying?


Playing a game that is worth a ****?

All kidding aside though, this just makes me think of something I was talking about in another thread. MMOs are social games. I don't see anything wrong with requiring players to communicate and network to get things set up and knocked down.

A) Pretty easily remedied. It's not hard to find a FC or LS that raids if you're actively seeking one.

B) I don't know what PF is. I must be a noob.

C) Difficult content should be excluded from PF, DF and any other F. The players should be their own finders for content that requires any amount of planning and/or communication. If you really want to tackle harder content, you should at least be attentive enough to find other people who want to do it.

D) I don't play XIV, but for quite a while I was the leader of an HNMLS in XI. I was an officer in my dynamis LS, and everything from raid leader to guild leader in WoW. I never had a problem reaching out to people in MMOs. Again this is another downfall of games being overly accessible and not pushing players to develop relationships and network.

I spent literally the better part of a year getting my first job in FFXI to cap. I wasn't really in any hurry to get to 75 because being where I was still left me with plenty of things to do. I made enough friends, allies, acquaintances, LS mates, ect. that I could probably fill a handful of coil groups with people I met in that relatively short time.

Somewhat relative tangent....


Remember this?


If they'd followed through with this idea it would have worked wonders for them. Blizzard has battlenet, TERA now has Steam... hopefully going forward companies will realize just how important networking and community are to MMO health.



D) Is precisely whats wrong with MMOs today, It took me a year o get my first job in XI to cap too but thats because it literally took that long to level, and the game forced you to play with others so by the time you hit level cap you made plenty of bonds ad knew LOTs of people so getting help wasnt an issue, also the community was much more helpful.. I dont remember anyone needing experience to join a Sky or Dynamis or Salvage run.... instead ppl were happy to walk you through the content while doing it and tell you what to and not to do, whee to stand and not to stand when to move etc etc. Unlike a game where you can sol;o to max level and do content with andom strangers across servers who youll most likely never see again then be at level cap for 2 years and still cant name 10 people in game that you know. lol... in FFXI by level 25 Id already knew 30 people lol


As for A) Thats not easily remedied if lets say you work retail where you dont have a set schedule and your time changes every week thus your not guaranteed to be able to always be on on friday at 7pm-10pm to do coils with your FC/LS etc etc
#18 Jun 06 2015 at 9:57 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
I can think of a few reasons people do it:


A) theyre not in a FC or Ls that raids

B) They cant do it in PF because they dont meet the "must have experience" or "multiple clears" requirements.

c) They have 0 hope of doing it in DF unless everyone know what theyre doing and if everyone knew what they weer doing they wouldnt be in DF to begin with.

D) ever if you tried to set up a progression party youd get no one as youd be sitting ther for 30+ mins before the group got even half full and by that time pl would start dropping out of the party etc etc


So erase those four things what option do you have left besides paying?


Playing a game that is worth a ****?

All kidding aside though, this just makes me think of something I was talking about in another thread. MMOs are social games. I don't see anything wrong with requiring players to communicate and network to get things set up and knocked down.

A) Pretty easily remedied. It's not hard to find a FC or LS that raids if you're actively seeking one.

B) I don't know what PF is. I must be a noob.

C) Difficult content should be excluded from PF, DF and any other F. The players should be their own finders for content that requires any amount of planning and/or communication. If you really want to tackle harder content, you should at least be attentive enough to find other people who want to do it.

D) I don't play XIV, but for quite a while I was the leader of an HNMLS in XI. I was an officer in my dynamis LS, and everything from raid leader to guild leader in WoW. I never had a problem reaching out to people in MMOs. Again this is another downfall of games being overly accessible and not pushing players to develop relationships and network.

I spent literally the better part of a year getting my first job in FFXI to cap. I wasn't really in any hurry to get to 75 because being where I was still left me with plenty of things to do. I made enough friends, allies, acquaintances, LS mates, ect. that I could probably fill a handful of coil groups with people I met in that relatively short time.

Somewhat relative tangent....


Remember this?


If they'd followed through with this idea it would have worked wonders for them. Blizzard has battlenet, TERA now has Steam... hopefully going forward companies will realize just how important networking and community are to MMO health.



D) Is precisely whats wrong with MMOs today, It took me a year o get my first job in XI to cap too but thats because it literally took that long to level, and the game forced you to play with others so by the time you hit level cap you made plenty of bonds ad knew LOTs of people so getting help wasnt an issue, also the community was much more helpful.. I dont remember anyone needing experience to join a Sky or Dynamis or Salvage run.... instead ppl were happy to walk you through the content while doing it and tell you what to and not to do, whee to stand and not to stand when to move etc etc. Unlike a game where you can sol;o to max level and do content with andom strangers across servers who youll most likely never see again then be at level cap for 2 years and still cant name 10 people in game that you know. lol... in FFXI by level 25 Id already knew 30 people lol


As for A) Thats not easily remedied if lets say you work retail where you dont have a set schedule and your time changes every week thus your not guaranteed to be able to always be on on friday at 7pm-10pm to do coils with your FC/LS etc etc
#19 Jun 07 2015 at 12:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
B) I don't know what PF is. I must be a noob.

C) Difficult content should be excluded from PF, DF and any other F. The players should be their own finders for content that requires any amount of planning and/or communication. If you really want to tackle harder content, you should at least be attentive enough to find other people who want to do it.


PF is the Party Finder which is a system by which you can put together premade parties to do content with. Unlike the Duty Finder, the Party Finder is limited to your own server and is not random in any way.

Given that you didn't know that and don't play the game, you probably shouldn't comment about what it should contain or how FFXIV doesn't have social interaction.

It's pretty clear that I understand exactly what it is. Should it really be a prerequisite that I play every game that has a tool for facilitating dungeon or raid grouping before I comment on them? Yeah, no.

It doesn't matter if it forms a group of 5, 8, 10 or even 40. It doesn't matter of the pool it draws from are cross-server or from your own server. Duty finder, dungeon finder, looking for group, looking for raid or whatever the hell it's called in your game of choice... they're all the same concept with slight variations. They undermine the social aspect of the game that many people would argue is the actual point of playing an MMO in the first place. Even tools like clan and guild finder tools go against the principle of what an MMO is. Point stands.

DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
As for A) Thats not easily remedied if lets say you work retail where you dont have a set schedule and your time changes every week thus your not guaranteed to be able to always be on on friday at 7pm-10pm to do coils with your FC/LS etc etc

While most guilds, clans, linkshells or what have you usually like to stick to a set schedule, there are guilds for players who enjoy raiding but can't commit to a solid schedule. You brought the idea to light so it should come as no surprise to you that there are many people who can't conform their schedules to raiding.

You kinda make my point for me here though. This would be a perfect example of one of those times where you would reach out to meet other people with the same goals and schedule restrictions as you. If I didn't have a guild or linkshell with people I enjoyed talking to and sharing the experience with, I'd just go play a single player game. That's honestly what using a group finder tool feels like to me. If it weren't for the fact that occasionally someone starts up some small talk, I probably wouldn't be able to tell most of the time if they were AI controlled by the game or real people anyway.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#20 Jun 07 2015 at 8:00 AM Rating: Excellent
Party Finder is actually a really useful tool. It gets used not only for building raid teams, but for advertisements for new FCs, people selling houses, etc. And of course sometimes silliness. It's basically a message board.

It essentially replaced shouts as they were in XI, although it gets used in conjunction with shouts for Hunts because it's easier to shout the location of a Hunt monster and say "party is in PF" than it is to individually invite 7 other people when you have 2-3 minutes to put together a party and travel to the location before the the thing is squashed flat. People build parties for spamming FATES, too. There's also usually a shout advertising a raid group if the spots haven't filled up fast enough.

One of the most critical social aspects in XIV is crippled at the moment - since RMT hog up the tell channels, no one uses it any more. You're either shouting, or you're talking in your FC, LS, or party. Direct tells only happen if someone has requested them and is expecting them - and turned off their /busy tag.

Edited, Jun 7th 2015 10:20am by Catwho
#21 Jun 07 2015 at 8:01 AM Rating: Decent
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B) I don't know what PF is. I must be a noob.
Quote:
It's pretty clear that I understand exactly what it is.

It's pretty clear you don't.
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#22 Jun 08 2015 at 1:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
Party Finder is actually a really useful tool. It gets used not only for building raid teams, but for advertisements for new FCs, people selling houses, etc. And of course sometimes silliness. It's basically a message board.


I understand that it's quite versatile in the ways it's used. It's not any different in most other games either. You find anything from sales to guild recruitment and everything in-between on it. Most games have other tools for that though. Alliance system in TERA, guild finding tool in WoW, any of the myriad of websites devoted to finding a buyer or seller for items, ect.

I can see how it would be quicker to just use shouts for things like hunts, but I was speaking about higher tier content. Things that you want to approach with players who you can get to try different strategies, people who will stick around for more than an attempt or two and people who you might even voice chat to make sure everyone is on the same page. Beyond that, these are the types of players that you'd likely gravitate toward grouping with again if you enjoyed the experience.

Party tools take a lot of that away from the game. There's really no telling what you'll get from it. You might get a great group, you might get a princess paladin or a DD that doesn't know or care to manage threat or even just someone trolling for no reason. Speaking of trolling for no reason...

Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
B) I don't know what PF is. I must be a noob.
Quote:
It's pretty clear that I understand exactly what it is.

It's pretty clear you don't.

I increased the size so I knew you'd see it, but you still blatantly skipped over the part of my post that clearly shows that I know what he meant. Purposeful ignorance? What's the basis?

You're trying to call me on something that not only can everyone else see, they already know that I understand how it works because I discussed it way back when it was implemented into the game.I know that you've been around long enough to know better yourself. So... are you just trying to troll? Am I missing the joke here?

*edit for clarity*
I'm against any type of group queue system in any game for any content that is intended to be challenging. It's fine for anything that would be considered trivial like lower level dungeons, FATEs and rifts, hunts ect.

I'm not griping about ARR, but about something that is impacting all MMOs that use this system. That includes pretty much all of them. For that reason, I feel that the point I'm making is valid regardless of whether or not I have an active subscription to any one in particular. It's not hard to find feedback for each of these games regarding their respective queue systems. What you'll find is that despite them all being different games, they do share a lot of similarities. The games are different, but the impact is universal.

Edited, Jun 8th 2015 5:57am by FilthMcNasty
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#23 Jun 08 2015 at 7:55 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm against any type of group queue system in any game for any content that is intended to be challenging.


Then how would you suggest people who lack a full static get things like that done?

The Party Finder helps you put together premade groups. It isn't a queuing system of any kind as there's no queue that any of the players using it are waiting in. It's just a tool to help you find party members as opposed to shouting in random zones for people. This is why I think you fundamentally misunderstand what the tool does. Because you keep calling it a queuing system when it is not. I'm not trolling you, Filth. But you seem to be convinced you know what this thing does and you're wrong.
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#24 Jun 08 2015 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
I'm against any type of group queue system in any game for any content that is intended to be challenging.


Then how would you suggest people who lack a full static get things like that done?


Well....

The Game constantly telling you wrote:
Use the duty finder to complete (insert content)


Or he could have..you know..made localized queuing and open world content that also built a sense of community.

While I see both sides of what's going on here, you don't need a static for anything and PFs tend to be..far worse than DF at times. Look at all the people who want I127-130 for T13 and can't get past phase 1 when I've cleared it 3 times in DF using only the required Ilvl. Or people who only want ilvl110+ for outdated ilvl50 content like the original Primals and so on.

Quote:
Because you keep calling it a queuing system when it is not. I'm not trolling you, Filth. But you seem to be convinced you know what this thing does and you're wrong.


I think the issue here is you're so intent on proving someone wrong about something due to a simple use of a word despite being correct. In every other MMORPG, the PF is a queuing system because your party request/recruitment is placed in a queue (which as you know simply means "waiting list") compared to going into a straight Dungeon Finder, which too is a queue.

He obviously knows what PFs are and does and quite honestly I see exactly what he's getting at - He just simply chose to use the term 'queue' that seems to be throwing you off.
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#25 Jun 08 2015 at 8:33 AM Rating: Default
Undercutting is normal, but then people like to complain.

I look for suppliers and if they want to fight it out and give me the best deal - great. Why should I pay an arm and a leg for something I can save my self plenty of Gills. I undercut things a lot because usually I have too much stuff to sell and I don't have the space needed.

It's not rude, it's business. If you want my Gills you give me a good price/offer. Just like in RL you want my £££ you give me a good deal, I will shop around especially for something expensive. I shot at Aldi now because their costs save me a third of my hard earned £££. This also means when I buy something from the AH I always buy the cheapest item.
#26 Jun 08 2015 at 8:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
I'm against any type of group queue system in any game for any content that is intended to be challenging.


Then how would you suggest people who lack a full static get things like that done?

Simply put, I'm not.

We've already distinguished the differences in various types of party tools. I'm specifically talking about the ones that are queue systems. If you are listed on a bulletin board type of system that shows you a list of other people interested in doing content x, that's fine. If you're put into a queue system that builds a group for you, alerts you when that group is ready and then whisks you off to the content via teleport, I'm not about that. They both exist.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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