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Better aoe - Bard or Mach?Follow
5 posts
this will help determine which class I want to play. Any input?
Two completely different classes.
Bard's main draw are the songs, so if you plan to play based on AoE damage, avoid BRD and go to Machinist - While BRD can do decent AoE, especially now with the bloodletter/rain of death being a shared ocd timer you can actually do 2 AoEs back to back, you'll have to focus on rotating your songs, especially post 50 with wanderer's minuet thrown in.
Machinist AoE is pretty nice and overall DPS is good, it has decent support too but if your focus is more on the damage it can output...yeah both are fine choices but you have to think about what you want to play in terms of overall mechanics.
Bard's main draw are the songs, so if you plan to play based on AoE damage, avoid BRD and go to Machinist - While BRD can do decent AoE, especially now with the bloodletter/rain of death being a shared ocd timer you can actually do 2 AoEs back to back, you'll have to focus on rotating your songs, especially post 50 with wanderer's minuet thrown in.
Machinist AoE is pretty nice and overall DPS is good, it has decent support too but if your focus is more on the damage it can output...yeah both are fine choices but you have to think about what you want to play in terms of overall mechanics.
10 posts
Machinist AoE is better.
Bard and Machinist have the same role in raiding- they will both provide support through songs. In this case, Machinist will provide his support through the use of turrets supplying the TP/MP recharge.
Bard excels in Damage over Time abilities on single targets, amplified by their new 50-60 kit.
Both MCN and BRD will have a "binding" mechanic where standing still will benefit their damage output (Gauss Barrel and Wanderer's Minuet respectively)
Raid utiltiy wise, Machinist will pull slightly ahead in damage reduction as they have more preventive damage, but lack what Foe's Reqiuem can bring to a party. It's hard to tell which will have more utility in a raid environment as it will be dependent on the encounter design as to which is more suited.
All in all, if you are a casual player the choice will matter naught- you should pick which class you like to play more as their rotations are radically different. However, if you are looking to raid at a higher tier and you are currently a Bard for your raid group, you should level a Machinist. They share almost the same gear so you will be rolling for the same stuff, and you will fill the same slot only allowing your raid more versatility in crafting better strategy for raid encounters.
tldr: Machinist has better AoE
edit: I should mention since this is current discussion: Bard's AoE is up in the air on how it is suppose to be played with recent changes. Right now with the Rain of Death change we no longer have an AoE rotation anymore. Because of that, it's recommended you do not use Wide Volley at all, whatsoever, unless you cannot position yourself for Quick Nock. Wide Volley does the same amount of damage at a longer range but has a smaller radius and costs more TP. Since Wide Volley cannot proc a free charge of Rain of Death any longer, there's very little reason to use it.
It's hard to tell how you should perform AoE now, though. Since DoTs directly increase our AoE rotation damage, DoTting targets may prove beneficial, especially since Quick Nock is still a huge TP dump. It is definitely worth it to DoT <3 targets up and continue ST rotation on one of them, but using Rain of Death weaves instead of Bloodletter weaves. However, at 4 enemies it may be beneficial to attempt to DoT them up when you have all (or quite a few) buffs up. I think we'll have to see some numbers ran on this but since the Simulation community moves at snail's pace (heck ACT is only now working on DX11, apparently), and the grind to 60 will take quite a while, we won't see any hard numbers for a while.
Edited, Jun 21st 2015 11:41pm by jazzyyk
Bard and Machinist have the same role in raiding- they will both provide support through songs. In this case, Machinist will provide his support through the use of turrets supplying the TP/MP recharge.
Bard excels in Damage over Time abilities on single targets, amplified by their new 50-60 kit.
Both MCN and BRD will have a "binding" mechanic where standing still will benefit their damage output (Gauss Barrel and Wanderer's Minuet respectively)
Raid utiltiy wise, Machinist will pull slightly ahead in damage reduction as they have more preventive damage, but lack what Foe's Reqiuem can bring to a party. It's hard to tell which will have more utility in a raid environment as it will be dependent on the encounter design as to which is more suited.
All in all, if you are a casual player the choice will matter naught- you should pick which class you like to play more as their rotations are radically different. However, if you are looking to raid at a higher tier and you are currently a Bard for your raid group, you should level a Machinist. They share almost the same gear so you will be rolling for the same stuff, and you will fill the same slot only allowing your raid more versatility in crafting better strategy for raid encounters.
tldr: Machinist has better AoE
edit: I should mention since this is current discussion: Bard's AoE is up in the air on how it is suppose to be played with recent changes. Right now with the Rain of Death change we no longer have an AoE rotation anymore. Because of that, it's recommended you do not use Wide Volley at all, whatsoever, unless you cannot position yourself for Quick Nock. Wide Volley does the same amount of damage at a longer range but has a smaller radius and costs more TP. Since Wide Volley cannot proc a free charge of Rain of Death any longer, there's very little reason to use it.
It's hard to tell how you should perform AoE now, though. Since DoTs directly increase our AoE rotation damage, DoTting targets may prove beneficial, especially since Quick Nock is still a huge TP dump. It is definitely worth it to DoT <3 targets up and continue ST rotation on one of them, but using Rain of Death weaves instead of Bloodletter weaves. However, at 4 enemies it may be beneficial to attempt to DoT them up when you have all (or quite a few) buffs up. I think we'll have to see some numbers ran on this but since the Simulation community moves at snail's pace (heck ACT is only now working on DX11, apparently), and the grind to 60 will take quite a while, we won't see any hard numbers for a while.
Edited, Jun 21st 2015 11:41pm by jazzyyk
jazzyyk wrote:
tldr: Machinist has better AoE
And apparently is more likely to rip hate off the DRK tank too. Win some, lose some.
Ok, I took bard to 59. Been in raids with me and a machinist, max level (we were both capped at 50, Final Witness Status, this guy knew his job.) Here are my observations, and also the reason why everyone saying machinist aoe is better is full of balogna.
edit: I should mention since this is current discussion: Bard's AoE is up in the air on how it is suppose to be played with recent changes. Right now with the Rain of Death change we no longer have an AoE rotation anymore. Because of that, it's recommended you do not use Wide Volley at all, whatsoever, unless you cannot position yourself for Quick Nock. Wide Volley does the same amount of damage at a longer range but has a smaller radius and costs more TP. Since Wide Volley cannot proc a free charge of Rain of Death any longer, there's very little reason to use it.
Check this out. Macro in Rain of Death before Wide Volley. Start up in Wanderer's for all standstill aoe, will up damage by 25%. Spam the Wide Volley macro and Rain of Death, when that RoD proc hits at 15%, RoD will reset its cooldown instantly like bloodletter and you will use it (free, no TP used) prior to wide volley, and it has sort of an instant animation when it is used this way. I've never proc'ed Quick Nock since 3.0, so I don't even use it anymore. With a skill speed build the cast time for Wide Volley isn't so long, and generally with aoe you arent moving much anyway (so interruptions aren't a thing). Also, (and here is the greatest thing of all) you forgot to mention that now Paeon drops our dps by 15% instead of 20%, so you can effectively be in paeon with wanderers up and be doing more damage than prior to the patch, and able to drop aoe for as long as you have mana. Couple that with our buffs and that nifty Barrage + Empyrial arrow combo on whatever you are targeting and you are good to go.
Note: Avoid using bloodletter with Rain of Death until the next patch fixes it. It is bugged and will cause you to be unable to use ANY skill for 15 sec until bloodletter resets.
For the record, my threat bar was 4 or times as high as the machinists on any given enemy. Times like these make me wish I had a PC and could parse.
It's hard to tell how you should perform AoE now, though. Since DoTs directly increase our AoE rotation damage, DoTting targets may prove beneficial, especially since Quick Nock is still a huge TP dump. It is definitely worth it to DoT <3 targets up and continue ST rotation on one of them, but using Rain of Death weaves instead of Bloodletter weaves. However, at 4 enemies it may be beneficial to attempt to DoT them up when you have all (or quite a few) buffs up. I think we'll have to see some numbers ran on this but since the Simulation community moves at snail's pace (heck ACT is only now working on DX11, apparently), and the grind to 60 will take quite a while, we won't see any hard numbers for a while.
No wonder you think machinist aoe rotation is better. You are doing it all wrong... DoT 3 targets, pfftt. Just try my method up there and see what you think. Start out with no Paeon, use invigorate at 400 TP, and when you are back down to 300 TP roll into Paeon. Weave your CDs in between your Wide Volley / RoD macro and finish with a Barrage + Empyrial Arrow.
For single targets however, since I found out that sidewinder works outside of Wanderer's Minuet, I can't possibly believe that being in Minuet could make my single target DPS over time higher on a 5 minute parse that just using my plain old anti Wanderer's rotation with sidewinder dropping buffed while the DOTs are up.
Edited, Jun 22nd 2015 2:42pm by Valkayree
jazzyyk wrote:
edit: I should mention since this is current discussion: Bard's AoE is up in the air on how it is suppose to be played with recent changes. Right now with the Rain of Death change we no longer have an AoE rotation anymore. Because of that, it's recommended you do not use Wide Volley at all, whatsoever, unless you cannot position yourself for Quick Nock. Wide Volley does the same amount of damage at a longer range but has a smaller radius and costs more TP. Since Wide Volley cannot proc a free charge of Rain of Death any longer, there's very little reason to use it.
Check this out. Macro in Rain of Death before Wide Volley. Start up in Wanderer's for all standstill aoe, will up damage by 25%. Spam the Wide Volley macro and Rain of Death, when that RoD proc hits at 15%, RoD will reset its cooldown instantly like bloodletter and you will use it (free, no TP used) prior to wide volley, and it has sort of an instant animation when it is used this way. I've never proc'ed Quick Nock since 3.0, so I don't even use it anymore. With a skill speed build the cast time for Wide Volley isn't so long, and generally with aoe you arent moving much anyway (so interruptions aren't a thing). Also, (and here is the greatest thing of all) you forgot to mention that now Paeon drops our dps by 15% instead of 20%, so you can effectively be in paeon with wanderers up and be doing more damage than prior to the patch, and able to drop aoe for as long as you have mana. Couple that with our buffs and that nifty Barrage + Empyrial arrow combo on whatever you are targeting and you are good to go.
Note: Avoid using bloodletter with Rain of Death until the next patch fixes it. It is bugged and will cause you to be unable to use ANY skill for 15 sec until bloodletter resets.
For the record, my threat bar was 4 or times as high as the machinists on any given enemy. Times like these make me wish I had a PC and could parse.
jazzyyk wrote:
It's hard to tell how you should perform AoE now, though. Since DoTs directly increase our AoE rotation damage, DoTting targets may prove beneficial, especially since Quick Nock is still a huge TP dump. It is definitely worth it to DoT <3 targets up and continue ST rotation on one of them, but using Rain of Death weaves instead of Bloodletter weaves. However, at 4 enemies it may be beneficial to attempt to DoT them up when you have all (or quite a few) buffs up. I think we'll have to see some numbers ran on this but since the Simulation community moves at snail's pace (heck ACT is only now working on DX11, apparently), and the grind to 60 will take quite a while, we won't see any hard numbers for a while.
No wonder you think machinist aoe rotation is better. You are doing it all wrong... DoT 3 targets, pfftt. Just try my method up there and see what you think. Start out with no Paeon, use invigorate at 400 TP, and when you are back down to 300 TP roll into Paeon. Weave your CDs in between your Wide Volley / RoD macro and finish with a Barrage + Empyrial Arrow.
For single targets however, since I found out that sidewinder works outside of Wanderer's Minuet, I can't possibly believe that being in Minuet could make my single target DPS over time higher on a 5 minute parse that just using my plain old anti Wanderer's rotation with sidewinder dropping buffed while the DOTs are up.
Edited, Jun 22nd 2015 2:42pm by Valkayree
10 posts
Valkayree wrote:
Check this out. Macro in Rain of Death before Wide Volley. Start up in Wanderer's for all standstill aoe, will up damage by 25%. Spam the Wide Volley macro and Rain of Death, when that RoD proc hits at 15%, RoD will reset its cooldown instantly like bloodletter and you will use it (free, no TP used) prior to wide volley, and it has sort of an instant animation when it is used this way. I've never proc'ed Quick Nock since 3.0, so I don't even use it anymore. With a skill speed build the cast time for Wide Volley isn't so long, and generally with aoe you arent moving much anyway (so interruptions aren't a thing). Also, (and here is the greatest thing of all) you forgot to mention that now Paeon drops our dps by 15% instead of 20%, so you can effectively be in paeon with wanderers up and be doing more damage than prior to the patch, and able to drop aoe for as long as you have mana. Couple that with our buffs and that nifty Barrage + Empyrial arrow combo on whatever you are targeting and you are good to go.
Dude you and I are having this same discussion on Reddit for the record. We even have almost the same exact usernames. Anyway my response to this (as I posted on Reddit):
"rain of death is ALWAYS an instant cast for 0 tp that is on a shared cooldown with bloodletter (and will have its cd reset the same as BL when your DoTs crit proc) as of 3.0"
Valkayree wrote:
I've never proc'ed Quick Nock since 3.0
You've never procced Quick Nock anymore because you can't proc a free Quick Nock off of a Rain of Death proc anymore because Rain of Death's tooltip reads:
http://i.imgur.com/eHiDIi1.jpg
Notice anything about the Wide Volley tooltip?
https://i.imgur.com/FEO2hNQ.jpg
It no longer mentions ANYTHING about Rain of Death procs. Because it doesn't proc a free Rain of Death anymore. Because Rain of Death is free, and on a shared CD for Bloodletter.
Valkayree wrote:
Note: Avoid using bloodletter with Rain of Death until the next patch fixes it. It is bugged and will cause you to be unable to use ANY skill for 15 sec until bloodletter resets.
It has nothing to do with using Bloodletter and RoD it is that Bloodletter (and therefore by extension, RoD) are bugged to where you'll be skilled locked out after using BL.
Valkayree wrote:
No wonder you think machinist aoe rotation is better. You are doing it all wrong... DoT 3 targets, pfftt. Just try my method up there and see what you think.
Bloodletter and Rain of Death share a cooldown. They both reset on DoT procs.
Back in 2.55 it was a DPS increase when you were battling 3 enemies with equivalent priority to DoT them all and weave bloodletters in.
Now, it's even BETTER to DoT three targets. Why? Because Rain of Death resets on DoT crit procs! Therefore if you DoT up in AoE situations you INCREASE AoE damage output because you are using Rain of Death (AoE ability) more often for free!
Anyway. Wanderer's Minuet is a DPS increase always, from my understanding, but it's INCREDIBLY small. Because you add cast times to your spells they are back up when you finish the cast, therefore it's no longer possible to weave in Bloodletter procs in between GCDs. And since you discontinue auto attacks, that's more lost DPS.
But you DO see a DPS increase. You would also see a DPS increase using WM with Quick Nock if there are more than 5+ enemies because it's inefficient to DoT enemies at that point, and since you won't be DoTting, you won't be proccing BL/RoD procs, meaning spamming Quick Nock is your best bet. I think WM is a really really poorly made skill. Even if they keep these changes they need to readd Autoattacks into it because it's just so bad that using it is worthless.
Think about it, WM is at best at 30~40 DPS increase. That means if you mess up a certain amount of casts (which will happen no matter what), you will end up losing DPS. It's just not good.
As for Machinist their DPS isn't bad. Right now ACT is incorrectly reporting all DPS for all DoT classes and also Machinist (who has a DoT) because Wildfire is not being correctly reported. I don't think anyone understands how to play MCN either, and it doesn't help that MCN aren't a very good "dungeon" class as Turrets are more built for long standing fights since you have to waste seconds on your rotation to deploy them.
Edited, Jun 23rd 2015 2:43pm by jazzyyk
Quote:
Now, it's even BETTER to DoT three targets. Why? Because Rain of Death resets on DoT crit procs! Therefore if you DoT up in AoE situations you INCREASE AoE damage output because you are using Rain of Death (AoE ability) more often for free!
I haven't touched bard since 3.0 (just too busy with pld), but this sounds like an interesting change.
What's the word on the new WM ability for bard? Thumbs up or thumbs down? How often do you guys use it?
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
Jormungandr
Hyperion
Thumbs up on WM and when you start getting the new abilities. For example a Buffed Empyreal Arrow or w/e it's called with Barrage is an instant 3.5k+ damage spike in the right conditions, so throwing that into your rotation is amazing, however it takes getting used to needing to actually cast your skills. it'll feel your DPS is slow/low when you first start using it though.
10 posts
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Now, it's even BETTER to DoT three targets. Why? Because Rain of Death resets on DoT crit procs! Therefore if you DoT up in AoE situations you INCREASE AoE damage output because you are using Rain of Death (AoE ability) more often for free!
I haven't touched bard since 3.0 (just too busy with pld), but this sounds like an interesting change.
What's the word on the new WM ability for bard? Thumbs up or thumbs down? How often do you guys use it?
I edited my post to talk a bit about WM right when you made that post but yeah, WM is a DPS increase but it's fairly small (even with the new abilities unlocked)
The problem is that even though you massively increase your damage you lose your Auto attacks and also lose Bloodletter proc weaving in between GCDs on your normal abilities. Sidewinder DOES NOT need Wanderer's Mineut to be cast. That is a translation error. There's no mention of WM in the Japanese tooltip, and you can cast SW in either form.
Anyway my personal opinion Bard after the changes is that it's still a required class in every raid composition (Because giving up MP/TP regeneration would be ridiculous) but it's no longer even remotely as interesting to play. You will spend less time clicking buttons so the rotation has been slowed down, and songs are still in the dumb spot they're at. They should really remove the cast time on the Songs at this point, and let autoattacks continue during Wanderer's Minuet.
or they could solve literally every problem with this game by removing the animation lock between using abilities
So do bards now just have WM on all the time? Or do you switch it on and off depending on what's happening?
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
Jormungandr
Hyperion
10 posts
Thayos wrote:
So do bards now just have WM on all the time? Or do you switch it on and off depending on what's happening?
You switch it on and off. It's like a song sort of, but it can be played with other songs.
As a non-standard song that can be on all the time and doesn't use MP or TP and doesn't interfere with other songs, I keep it on almost all of the time. If I am in a situation where I am going to move around a lot (like when I fought Ravana last night), I turn it off, but otherwise, I leave it on at all times. I'm enjoying it too much. :)
I get the impression, based on what I know of you through our FC's chat, that you'll enjoy the changes. I could always be wrong, of course, but you'll probably like them.
I get the impression, based on what I know of you through our FC's chat, that you'll enjoy the changes. I could always be wrong, of course, but you'll probably like them.
Primary World: Hyperion
Free Company: Jormungandr
Legacy Member
Main Character: Fialas Dawnren: Level 60 BRD/AST/MNK/DoL, Level 16-50 On Everything Else
Free Company: Jormungandr
Legacy Member
Main Character: Fialas Dawnren: Level 60 BRD/AST/MNK/DoL, Level 16-50 On Everything Else
I mean does it usually stay on through most battles? Or are you toggling it during fights?
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
Jormungandr
Hyperion
Oh, it never expires unless one of the following happens:
1. You change classes/jobs.
2. You use it a second time (the same as the other songs).
3. You logout (I think).
4. You die (I think).
5. You get synced to below 52.
Edit: In other words, I leave it on all the time because it does no harm at all to leave it on outside of battles. I DO occasionally turn it off if I know I'm going to be moving around a lot, like with last night's Ravana clear, but otherwise, I leave it on at all times.
Edited, Jun 23rd 2015 3:26pm by Vaaniks
1. You change classes/jobs.
2. You use it a second time (the same as the other songs).
3. You logout (I think).
4. You die (I think).
5. You get synced to below 52.
Edit: In other words, I leave it on all the time because it does no harm at all to leave it on outside of battles. I DO occasionally turn it off if I know I'm going to be moving around a lot, like with last night's Ravana clear, but otherwise, I leave it on at all times.
Edited, Jun 23rd 2015 3:26pm by Vaaniks
Primary World: Hyperion
Free Company: Jormungandr
Legacy Member
Main Character: Fialas Dawnren: Level 60 BRD/AST/MNK/DoL, Level 16-50 On Everything Else
Free Company: Jormungandr
Legacy Member
Main Character: Fialas Dawnren: Level 60 BRD/AST/MNK/DoL, Level 16-50 On Everything Else
Thayos wrote:
I mean does it usually stay on through most battles? Or are you toggling it during fights?
It's a perma buff, cuts with death, cuts with class switch, cuts with sync. You do want to switch it on/off at times but riding it full time is pretty interesting change of pace (and DPS) for bard.
jazzyyk wrote:
Dude you and I are having this same discussion on Reddit for the record. We even have almost the same exact usernames. Anyway my response to this (as I posted on Reddit):
Haha I noticed that. Took what you said to heart, swapped out all my Wide Volleys with Quick Nocks. Now I DoT the first guy I come up to, roll into Quick Nocks with RoD procs, and do barrage > empyrial arrow then Internal Release > Sidewinder in between the Quick Nock spam. It seemed retarded to do that but it works better. I looked at the math and you were correct. Its what I get for looking at outdated tooltips. Should have used Garlean Tools from the beginning...
jazzyyk wrote:
Now, it's even BETTER to DoT three targets. Why? Because Rain of Death resets on DoT crit procs! Therefore if you DoT up in AoE situations you INCREASE AoE damage output because you are using Rain of Death (AoE ability) more often for free!
I feel like I'm losing out spending time dotting up 3 targets in wanderer's because it takes abysmally long to cast anything, so I usually dot up 1 target and roll into the rotation and I feel like I get procs often enough to balance out the time spent casting on main target. Plus if I have a ninja or a monk who is single target dpsing in a mob and he kills one of my DoT targets it was a waste.
jazzyyk wrote:
Anyway. Wanderer's Minuet is a DPS increase always, from my understanding, but it's INCREDIBLY small. Because you add cast times to your spells they are back up when you finish the cast, therefore it's no longer possible to weave in Bloodletter procs in between GCDs. And since you discontinue auto attacks, that's more lost DPS.
Wanderer's is a 20% overall DPS increase but cuts out autoattacks which were 23% of your overall DPS beforehand. I perceive it to be an overall DPS loss because empyrial arrow / barrage combo and Iron Jaws just really isn't enough to save it. The casting gets interrupted, seems sluggish, there are bugs with it... The only thing that would have saved it would have been sidewinder, if sidewinder was exclusive to WM. But its not
(and I hope it never is), and I swear I have to have a PC player parse me at some point because with sidewinder out of minuet I have been consistently higher on the threat than similar geared dragoons. Weaving in an attack that consistently deals 1800 every half minute or so on top of my usual damage is a welcome boost. I mention comparison to the dragoons since from what I've observed post 55 or so they seem to be exhibiting some of the highest threat bars (which usually indicates from a non parsing person's perspective that they are doing more damage if they are DPS). jazzyyk wrote:
spamming Quick Nock is your best bet. I think WM is a really really poorly made skill. Even if they keep these changes they need to readd Autoattacks into it because it's just so bad that using it is worthless.
Yep, you were the only one saying it, but you were completely right.
Bu tI don't share your opinion that the job is boring now. In fact, using sidewinder in my normal rotation has increased my DPS quite a bit, and I like it a lot.
Edited, Jun 24th 2015 4:03pm by Valkayree
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Now, it's even BETTER to DoT three targets. Why? Because Rain of Death resets on DoT crit procs! Therefore if you DoT up in AoE situations you INCREASE AoE damage output because you are using Rain of Death (AoE ability) more often for free!
I haven't touched bard since 3.0 (just too busy with pld), but this sounds like an interesting change.
What's the word on the new WM ability for bard? Thumbs up or thumbs down? How often do you guys use it?
I use it for AoEs only Post 60. It gives +20% dps and I can have paeon up (now only -15% dps) and be doing more damage with paeon up than I was before 3.0 with it down. Meaning I can extend my aoe damage a lot further, doing more dps as a result. The 25% boost just multiplies the reason to use WM it the more targets you have, because the cast time will always remain constant, and the negatives associated with WM (no autoattacks, cant move) are negligible when AoEing groups of mobs in dungeons. Cast cost factors in there as well, and post 3.0, as Jazzy said, Quick Nock is simply better than Wide Volley (since wide volley does the same damage at a higher cost and no longer does anything regarding procs).
So for AoE, I dot my main target in the group and position myself, then use quick nock until Rain of Death procs off the dots, then I use RoD. I weave in empyrial arrow + barrage when it is up, and sidewinder as well. Pop Invigorate at 400 Tp, then when I'm back down to 300 tp I use paeon until we are done.
Jazzy and a few others dot three targets. I personally prefer not to do this, since having 4 extra chances to crit and proc Rain of Death isn't really worth the 8 or so seconds it would take me to dot the other two targets thanks to the cast times in minuet, and by that time I start quick nock the first one would almost be gone. Also if I have a monk or ninja (dragoons actually do decent aoe now) they like to target my dot target and kill it, so that dot was a waste, since I'm only doing it for procs. So I dot the first target and roll into quick nock. I feel like I do more damage that way.
I do not use wanderer's with single targets, especially at lvl 60. Sidewinder can be used out of wanderer's minuet, and it makes it no contest. I can do way more single target damage out of minuet, plus I can move. Only upside to wanderer's is that you don't have to lock on to the target since autoattacks arent an issue.
10 posts
Valkayree wrote:
Its what I get for looking at outdated tooltips. Should have used Garlean Tools from the beginning...
It's just funny because I didn't even read 3.0 patch notes but I hadn't been subbed for a really long time so when I was re-reading I was like "wait when did Rain of Death get changed?"
Valkayree wrote:
I feel like I'm losing out spending time dotting up 3 targets in wanderer's because it takes abysmally long to cast anything, so I usually dot up 1 target and roll into the rotation and I feel like I get procs often enough to balance out the time spent casting on main target. Plus if I have a ninja or a monk who is single target dpsing in a mob and he kills one of my DoT targets it was a waste.
Dunno. WM changes a lot of stuff in general
Valkayree wrote:
Wanderer's is a 20% overall DPS increase but cuts out autoattacks which were 23% of your overall DPS beforehand. I perceive it to be an overall DPS loss because empyrial arrow / barrage combo and Iron Jaws just really isn't enough to save it. The casting gets interrupted, seems sluggish, there are bugs with it... The only thing that would have saved it would have been sidewinder, if sidewinder was exclusive to WM. But its not 
(and I hope it never is), and I swear I have to have a PC player parse me at some point because with sidewinder out of minuet I have been consistently higher on the threat than similar geared dragoons. Weaving in an attack that consistently deals 1800 every half minute or so on top of my usual damage is a welcome boost. I mention comparison to the dragoons since from what I've observed post 55 or so they seem to be exhibiting some of the highest threat bars (which usually indicates from a non parsing person's perspective that they are doing more damage if they are DPS).
(and I hope it never is), and I swear I have to have a PC player parse me at some point because with sidewinder out of minuet I have been consistently higher on the threat than similar geared dragoons. Weaving in an attack that consistently deals 1800 every half minute or so on top of my usual damage is a welcome boost. I mention comparison to the dragoons since from what I've observed post 55 or so they seem to be exhibiting some of the highest threat bars (which usually indicates from a non parsing person's perspective that they are doing more damage if they are DPS).I read that post about AA's being 20~23% but that was before the Barrage change. Now with the new Barrage (one that no longer affects autoattacks but rather weapon skills) I think WM will come out ahead in Single Target DPS
Valkayree wrote:
Bu tI don't share your opinion that the job is boring now. In fact, using sidewinder in my normal rotation has increased my DPS quite a bit, and I like it a lot.
Dunno, I switched to Monk now. I rolled Bard because it was similar to WoW's hunter in regards to mobility and I don't like where the class is going. I mean I can play without WM but that's a slight DPS loss and also lose a lot of neat abilities. Half of the recent abilities were made for WM stance so now it just seems like WM is the de facto go to dps stance. And once they fine tune the numbers and buff bard it's gonna stay.
We did the Aery tonight, and I tried it with WM on the final boss since I'n 56 and got toys and we wiped twice. I said ********** THIS STANCE" after that, dropped it, and we won.
Cast time really screws up squeezing in the OGC abilities I relied on for extra DPS. It makes it impossible to land a Flame Arrow in between DoTs, something I could do with some quick mouse movement before. The loss of mobility, essential for dodging, just doesn't make up for the slight bigger numbers, even if I did get a 1700 Empyreal Arrow crit at one point.
I'm doing to use it for AOE targets of 3+, and just take it off once it's down to two or one. And never use it any other time, I think.
Cast time really screws up squeezing in the OGC abilities I relied on for extra DPS. It makes it impossible to land a Flame Arrow in between DoTs, something I could do with some quick mouse movement before. The loss of mobility, essential for dodging, just doesn't make up for the slight bigger numbers, even if I did get a 1700 Empyreal Arrow crit at one point.
I'm doing to use it for AOE targets of 3+, and just take it off once it's down to two or one. And never use it any other time, I think.
Catwho wrote:
We did the Aery tonight, and I tried it with WM on the final boss since I'n 56 and got toys and we wiped twice. I said ********** THIS STANCE" after that, dropped it, and we won.
Cast time really screws up squeezing in the OGC abilities I relied on for extra DPS. It makes it impossible to land a Flame Arrow in between DoTs, something I could do with some quick mouse movement before. The loss of mobility, essential for dodging, just doesn't make up for the slight bigger numbers, even if I did get a 1700 Empyreal Arrow crit at one point.
Cast time really screws up squeezing in the OGC abilities I relied on for extra DPS. It makes it impossible to land a Flame Arrow in between DoTs, something I could do with some quick mouse movement before. The loss of mobility, essential for dodging, just doesn't make up for the slight bigger numbers, even if I did get a 1700 Empyreal Arrow crit at one point.
Once you hit 60 and realize that you can drop both dots, b4b, internal release and sidewinder crit for 3.5k when NOT in minuet, you realize that Iron Jaws is just a crutch Yoshi gave you after he cut off your legs and attack speed with cast times, and empyrial arrow / barrage is the buggy they give you in walmart so you don't have to walk around on your bum legs and still get your groceries bought. But at the end of the day you are still handicapped with WM, imo.
Catwho wrote:
I'm doing to use it for AOE targets of 3+, and just take it off once it's down to two or one. And never use it any other time, I think.
I do this exactly.
Edited, Jun 25th 2015 10:20am by Valkayree
15 posts
Thayos wrote:
I mean does it usually stay on through most battles? Or are you toggling it during fights?
Wanderer's Minuet is almost completely worthless. Not only does it defeat the entire purpose of being a bard by removing our movement, but it is also a significant DPS loss due to our auto attacks making up more of our damage than WM adds. WM and the abilities that come with it are almost exclusively not used at all by any bard who knows what they are doing.
Literally the only time to use it is when you are an AOE turret, and even then its debatable if it is worth using due to its long cast time. Basically, in the time it took you to cast Wanderer's Minuet, you could have used another GCD, rendering the entire song counterproductive unless you get at least 5 AOEs in.
15 posts
Well, since this decided to randomly post twice, i'll actually answer the question lol.
Bard has better overall DPS, as well as better support. Machinist is really, really bad right now, in all areas, especially single target DPS. However, it is almost certain to get a massive buff due to its undeniable badness, so keep your eyes open.
Edited, Jul 7th 2015 2:27am by Tinka
Bard has better overall DPS, as well as better support. Machinist is really, really bad right now, in all areas, especially single target DPS. However, it is almost certain to get a massive buff due to its undeniable badness, so keep your eyes open.
Edited, Jul 7th 2015 2:27am by Tinka
Before the buff to the stances, Bard and MCH were parsing comparable DPS with better increases to MCH DPS for Dragoon's piercing specific buffs due to the difference in battle.
Moot point, but Reddit posted parse yesterday before the patch of MCH posting Ravana at nearly 900 DPS, with accompanying video.
Moot point because both were buffed last night. Even though Yoshida and the Dev team said it was parsing fine internally, they listened.
Edited, Jul 7th 2015 9:36am by Hyrist
Moot point, but Reddit posted parse yesterday before the patch of MCH posting Ravana at nearly 900 DPS, with accompanying video.
Moot point because both were buffed last night. Even though Yoshida and the Dev team said it was parsing fine internally, they listened.
Edited, Jul 7th 2015 9:36am by Hyrist
Hyrist wrote:
Before the buff to the stances, Bard and MCH were parsing comparable DPS with better increases to MCH DPS for Dragoon's piercing specific buffs due to the difference in battle.
Moot point, but Reddit posted parse yesterday before the patch of MCH posting Ravana at nearly 900 DPS, with accompanying video.
Moot point because both were buffed last night. Even though Yoshida and the Dev team said it was parsing fine internally, they listened.
Edited, Jul 7th 2015 9:36am by Hyrist
Moot point, but Reddit posted parse yesterday before the patch of MCH posting Ravana at nearly 900 DPS, with accompanying video.
Moot point because both were buffed last night. Even though Yoshida and the Dev team said it was parsing fine internally, they listened.
Edited, Jul 7th 2015 9:36am by Hyrist
As a bard who values movement in battle, I consider it an aoe buff, but a single target nerf. Could have left sidewinder alone....
Yeah I had been doing my own parses yesterday and I out-DPSed both a dragoon and a ninja in Neverreap - partially because that's a movement heavy dungeon, partially because there are a lot of big AOE pulls where BRD can shine.
I played a bit with my BRD in Ex roulette today and I do like the adjustment. I may not see another 4K crit Sidewinder until I'm maximally geared, but getting a 2K crit Bloodletter was a pleasant surprise as well.
I played a bit with my BRD in Ex roulette today and I do like the adjustment. I may not see another 4K crit Sidewinder until I'm maximally geared, but getting a 2K crit Bloodletter was a pleasant surprise as well.
To me, MCH is more of a burst DPS. I played BRD main untill 3.0 when i decided to give MCH a try. I love it. my turrets make up for my own auto-attack, and with all my dps buffs, i can really unload a lot of dmg in a small amount of time. This is especially handy when dealing with those adds that just have to die fast. The aoe is pretty good with grenade shot + buffs. They are very similar jobs, and i think both have merit in certain situations.
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