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I finally won't have to raid to endgame!Follow

#27 Sep 20 2015 at 1:51 PM Rating: Excellent
The advantage could be that FC airships which have already explored and mapped out a lot of the islands get much more choice up front. If you've never done any airship exploration, you might have to start from Sector 1 in Ishgard.

Also, the highest level airship parts give some advantages to the ship themselves (I don't quite understand it.) Due to weight restrictions, you can only have one level 6 part on a maximum of two ships, if I heard it right.

Mammets drive the airships. They're cute little pilots.

I'm now a little less concerned because we managed to scrape together 8 people to finally clear T8 today.
#28 Sep 21 2015 at 12:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Void Ark looks cool.

I thought people were joking about the Pokemon battles thing.
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#29 Sep 21 2015 at 4:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Not trying to poke the hive or be disrespectful but whats the point of obtaining "raid" or "raid equivalent" gear if you don't raid.

It may be just me but for MMO's gear progression is one of the things that keeps me coming back for more.
#31 Sep 21 2015 at 5:46 AM Rating: Good
Ap0stle234 wrote:
Not trying to poke the hive or be disrespectful but whats the point of obtaining "raid" or "raid equivalent" gear if you don't raid.

It may be just me but for MMO's gear progression is one of the things that keeps me coming back for more.


To defeat non-raid events even faster!
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#32 Sep 21 2015 at 6:26 AM Rating: Good
Someone people like having a high iLvl number by their name.

(I've stopped at iLvl 193 because there's no point in going full Eso on bard. Not enough crit hit.)

Some people like the coordination of an event with a set goal. XI had {sky} and {sea} farming, which was raiding without a raid. (Compared to Dynamis or Limbus, which was more classically defined "raiding - a set time limit, pure PvE. etc.)
#33 Sep 21 2015 at 8:15 AM Rating: Default
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Ap0stle234 wrote:
Not trying to poke the hive or be disrespectful but whats the point of obtaining "raid" or "raid equivalent" gear if you don't raid.

It may be just me but for MMO's gear progression is one of the things that keeps me coming back for more.


I guess it's similar to people who dress up in fatigues and collect military grade weapons but never set foot in a war.
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#34 Sep 21 2015 at 8:34 AM Rating: Excellent
I've discussed this earlier, but many casual and midcore players are former hardcore players who are now just busier in RL. Just because we don't have time to be effective in raid statics doesn't mean we're not still interested in growing strong characters. This is a Final Fantasy game, and progression/grinding has always been a part of the experience.

Edited, Sep 21st 2015 7:35am by Thayos
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#35 Sep 21 2015 at 8:35 AM Rating: Good
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It's the same reason Raiders equip themselves with the best Raiding gear even though there's no raids ahead of them - to prepare for the next challenge ahead.

The Exploratory Missions promise to be difficult at its apex, having better gear eases the difficulty and provides an alternative path for progression. And having it have the chance to drop same ilvl gear means those who chose this alternative path towards advancement do not feel like second-class players for doing so.

And those who are unsatisfied with the current Raiding formula now have an alternative they can enjoy for their progression. Which, honestly makes me ecstatic. I prefer a little exploration to my challenges rather than what boils down to one arena fight after the next.
#36 Sep 21 2015 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Not trying to poke the hive or be disrespectful but whats the point of obtaining "raid" or "raid equivalent" gear if you don't raid.


Plenty of RPG players will try to get to max level with the most uber possible gear even when a mere fraction of that level of power is necessary to complete the game's story. Why? Because for those people it's just fun to roflstomp weaker things that potentially used to be problematic before.
#37 Sep 21 2015 at 9:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
I've discussed this earlier, but many casual and midcore players are former hardcore players who are now just busier in RL. Just because we don't have time to be effective in raid statics doesn't mean we're not still interested in growing strong characters. This is a Final Fantasy game, and progression/grinding has always been a part of the experience.

Edited, Sep 21st 2015 7:35am by Thayos


Time, desire, or both. I guess if I REALLY wanted to I could look for an FC running Savage, adjust my schedule around raid times blah blah I could, but that sort of thing just isn't appealing to me anymore. Plus I hate voice chat. I wanna listen to the game's or my own music while playing.

That said, I really wish there was a true middle ground in end game. Alex SM is too easy. Hopefully Void Ark delivers.
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#38 Sep 21 2015 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
Yeah, I no longer have the luxury of being able to plan multiple nights per week around a video game static... and even if I tried to do one late at night, most people who static don't run in late PST... this has always been a problem for me, even back in the XI days.

Adulting... it's not always good for gaming.
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#39 Sep 21 2015 at 10:02 AM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
I've discussed this earlier, but many casual and midcore players are former hardcore players who are now just busier in RL. Just because we don't have time to be effective in raid statics doesn't mean we're not still interested in growing strong characters. This is a Final Fantasy game, and progression/grinding has always been a part of the experience.

Edited, Sep 21st 2015 7:35am by Thayos


In true Final Fantasy fashion, that's like saying:

"I'll collect the ultimate weapon and gear and skills to one shot the (usually) easy final boss but not use them against super bosses that actually requires them to stand even the slightest chance, for example Ozma, Shinryu, Yazmat (though this can be hax'd thanks to gambits), FFXII's version of Divine Might etc."

So everyone is interested in getting strong characters, but unless you do the actual raids (which with XIV it's a bit weird since to effectively do the harder raids you need the gear they drop) you don't really need to be at "the top" because as per the history of this game thus far, unless it is something like "Binding Coil/Savage", the content never challenges you if you're at the top ilvl because he's stated numerous times they tune it on the easier side to allow completion in duty finder. This is why I say this game needs more horizontal progression, for the very reason to give alternate paths, rather than obsoleting a path altogether.

If the Voyages does indeed give i210 gear (Aetherial, which means weapons too) from gold chests as yoshi said on stream, then that invalidates Savage Alexander altogether, as Voidark will drop the gear and SA upgrade items (they didn't finalize which ones will drop though.) Yoshi says "it will be difficult!" just like he said the Relic of 2.0 will be difficult (talking about Chimera and Hydra battles) and at its core, they were only hard because it was painfully obvious which people have or haven't fought a chimera before in either 1.x or Cutter's Cry 2.0. So it may be "challenging", but if it's tuned to where you need raid progression gear to be ready for it, that would be amazing.

But Yoshi doesn't seem to want "accessible" content to be difficult.
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#40 Sep 21 2015 at 10:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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"I'll collect the ultimate weapon and gear and skills to one shot the (usually) easy final boss but not use them against super bosses that actually requires them to stand even the slightest chance, for example Ozma, Shinryu, Yazmat (though this can be hax'd thanks to gambits), FFXII's version of Divine Might etc."


Here's the difference though.

The reality is that in traditional Final Fantasy games, I can beat all of those super bosses because it's completely dependent upon me. I can learn when I want and how I want. If one of seven other people doesn't show up, then my entire play session isn't wasted.

In FFXIV, that's simply not the reality. These big raids are difficult, yes... but a large part of the difficulty is simply finding seven other people who can be on the exact same page as you. For me, that's way harder than actually playing the game.

As Hyrist said, the main reason I chase carrots now is to be ready for the next challenge. Personally, I'd be fine if the best iLevel gear I could get was like i210 while raiders could get like i215 or i220. I seriously don't care. My RL doesn't allow me the time to grind away in statics, which is what's needed to make raiding not a colossal waste of time (in my opinion). So I'm not going to stress over gear I can't have.

That said... if there is an alternate way to gear up and get raid that's better than what I'd get just grinding dungeons (or even if it's equal), then BAM! Sign me up. I'd love to be able to have some kind of endgame progression in this game that allows more casual participation like FFXI did (dynamis, sky, limbus, salvage, etc.).

And a final note, so what if a person only wanted to collect the ultimate gear and not fight the toughest super bosses? To me, people should be able to do what allows them to have fun, and some people just like grinding and gearing up (I know I do). This is a video game, after all... and a Final Fantasy game, at that. Really, it's not like we're doing anything important here.

EDIT:

Quote:
if it's tuned to where you need raid progression gear to be ready for it, that would be amazing.


See, I think this would be crazy on SE's part. Considering the small percentage of the playerbase that has the time to build statics and progress through raids (and the even smaller percentage of those who just gut it out in the DF and PF), they'd be launching this awesome new content that virtually no one would be able to play. If that happened, people wouldn't just pause their subscriptions until the next patch... they'd flat-out quit. That would simply go against the core concepts of FFXIV's rebuild.

Edited, Sep 21st 2015 9:51am by Thayos
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#41 Sep 21 2015 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
In true Final Fantasy fashion, that's like saying:

"I'll collect the ultimate weapon and gear and skills to one shot the (usually) easy final boss but not use them against super bosses that actually requires them to stand even the slightest chance, for example Ozma, Shinryu, Yazmat (though this can be hax'd thanks to gambits), FFXII's version of Divine Might etc."

Except that in a single player game you don't need 7 other people and the ability to dedicate X number of set hours per week to it.


Theonehio wrote:
Yoshi says "it will be difficult!" just like he said the Relic of 2.0 will be difficult (talking about Chimera and Hydra battles) and at its core, they were only hard because it was painfully obvious which people have or haven't fought a chimera before in either 1.x or Cutter's Cry 2.0. So it may be "challenging", but if it's tuned to where you need raid progression gear to be ready for it, that would be amazing.

Getting a relic WAS difficult originally. Today we laugh at getting Hydra/Garuda/Titan/etc in roulette, but in 2.0? Do you really not remember that stuff, especially Titan, roadblocking people for months? A group all decked out in i100+ gear can kill Titan HM easily and quickly. A 2.0 group in a mix of i55 and darklight? Not so much.

Edited, Sep 21st 2015 1:31pm by Karlina
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#42 Sep 21 2015 at 12:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Do you really not remember that stuff, especially Titan, roadblocking people for months? A group all decked out in i100+ gear can kill Titan HM easily and quickly. A 2.0 group in a mix of i55 and darklight? Not so much.


Several of my in-game friends who loved FFXI quit XIV simply because of what a pain in the *** Titan HM was at the time.

That's exactly why the newest content in this game shouldn't be tuned to a sliver of the playerbase. Heck, not even FFXI did that. A lot of the endgame bosses could be beat with middle-of-the-road endgame gear (if even that), and the "elite" gear in the game was basically just frosting on the cupcake.
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#43 Sep 21 2015 at 1:34 PM Rating: Excellent
I was stuck on Titan HM for about three months. I was really afraid I'd need to level another job besides white mage to finally beat it.

I was later on stuck on Titan Ex for about six months.

I'm still effin stuck on Bismarck Ex.

#44 Sep 21 2015 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Karlina wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
In true Final Fantasy fashion, that's like saying:

"I'll collect the ultimate weapon and gear and skills to one shot the (usually) easy final boss but not use them against super bosses that actually requires them to stand even the slightest chance, for example Ozma, Shinryu, Yazmat (though this can be hax'd thanks to gambits), FFXII's version of Divine Might etc."

Except that in a single player game you don't need 7 other people and the ability to dedicate X number of set hours per week to it.


Theonehio wrote:
Yoshi says "it will be difficult!" just like he said the Relic of 2.0 will be difficult (talking about Chimera and Hydra battles) and at its core, they were only hard because it was painfully obvious which people have or haven't fought a chimera before in either 1.x or Cutter's Cry 2.0. So it may be "challenging", but if it's tuned to where you need raid progression gear to be ready for it, that would be amazing.

Getting a relic WAS difficult originally. Today we laugh at getting Hydra/Garuda/Titan/etc in roulette, but in 2.0? Do you really not remember that stuff, especially Titan, roadblocking people for months? A group all decked out in i100+ gear can kill Titan HM easily and quickly. A 2.0 group in a mix of i55 and darklight? Not so much.

Edited, Sep 21st 2015 1:31pm by Karlina


My point was, though, if this is a "Final Fantasy Game" traditionally you don't need the "best gear" if your whole point is to avoid the harder content that would benefit from it because it's unnecessary due to a simple reason. This game already puts you on the same level or above the "welfare content" as people call it by design where the only difficulty comes from Alliance B not knowing how to step on a panel. The ilvl is usually about where people should be (yes, should be) if you're not working on progression because yoshida wants it accessible.

If they developed content outside of the every other update model that actually has difficulty to it by design and require high end equipment (even if said content requires gear FROM that content to efficiently get through it), it would make more sense..but based on the stream they mentioned "A Rank strength and some S rank strength"...I duo'd a few A-Ranks after HW hunts died down when Law upgrade materials became Law tome purchasable, they're not that tough. S ranks could be interesting if they mean HW S Ranks that has actual mechanics, or if they mean ARR S ranks that has no mechanics and is just a zerg fest.

I remember the one relic I did in 2.0 (as I did my main relic in 1.x when it was an actual challenge and fairly lengthy process with content that required both DoW/DoH/DoL working together in the same content for a step.) The reason people were roadblocked on Titan wasn't due to it being "too hard" as people are still failing titan HM at a tremendous rate despite overgearing it because their brain goes to mush and think they can just "muscle through any mechanic" or still ignore AoEs/Landslides. Back when DL was the best set around it actually shown more who was or wasn't good at their job. Then when SE changed the timing from like what, 1 second? down to where it should be (0.1-0.3) people were clearing it more reliably because we all remember level3.net issues and how the people's main roadblock were the literal roadblock of the route their connection took to the servers.

The hardest part being Titan was simply the jump from the previous kind of content to content where you can be COMPLETELY removed the battle, so content people were used to messing up in and being able to recover to content where you mess up badly and that's that..was quite the jump, least for those who never played 1.x and did Darnus (Hard).

Since 2.0 though, they've kept the progression content and 'accessible content' at a fairly even ilvl pacing to the point you can't ever be too undergeared but you can overgear it (accessible content), and with 3.0, they've pacing at a very, very quick pace because Law tomes are almost unnecessary to have ever existed and the only reason it was released was because Esoterics didn't come out until a few weeks later, the dungeon drops from the last set of dungeons is more than adequate for most of the "starter" content in 3.0 and even Alexander story, higher gear would make dps checks easier..but Bismarck for example no one does for a reason even though it's actually harder than Ravana.

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#45 Sep 21 2015 at 5:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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I... should get on that with the Ex fights. But honestly, it's just a matter of ease-of-access. I don't feel the desire to go up and look over Party finders and see "Farm Only!" parties, and then feel forced to have to build a Clear party myself. It just doesn't feel like an effective use of my time when I could be working on my Pile of Shame. So, I'll wait until they go on Duty Finder then queue up. I'm not worried about my ability to comprehend the mechanics. I watch videos and guides for entertainment as well as information, so no worries there.

Also, agree with Thayos, requiring Raid gear to clear Raids would make the game more niche and ultimately less successful. There are reasons why Savage is so unpopular right now.
#46 Sep 21 2015 at 5:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyrist wrote:
Also, agree with Thayos, requiring Raid gear to clear Raids would make the game more niche and ultimately less successful. There are reasons why Savage is so unpopular right now.


Reason #1:
It's the same content they released weeks prior with more mechanics. If Savage Alexander was actually different content and designed more like Coil, or even XI's Neo-Nyzul to an extent, people would be far happier with it. But it's literally..the same content that we did already. No one would ever be happy with that. It's why people originally were upset with Einherjar where they thought it was just another version of Dynamis..but it ended up allowing us to fight a staple FF summon and an alternate way of gaining abjurations (the key reason to do einherjar aside Mythics.)

Reason #2:
It's terribly designed for the most part. A3 and A4 are obvious walls to keep us busy till the next update..they didn't expect us to scrape by it like we did.

Reason #3:
You need the gear from it to successfully complete it because they expected their balance of it to keep people far busier than it did. Anyone's who actually done it knows it was painfully obvious that was the case. Floor 4 makes this even more obvious.

If they required Alex Savage gear to do newer content (normally, you go forward, not backwards, especially with no horizontal progression) it would be nice because then it gives reasons for content to even exist, but the fact Aetherial tier gear will beat gear form the harder content...yeah why does the harder content exist again? I know pretty much every tank would sooner take an i210 accessory that lacks parry/skill speed over the drops from AS. (like...parry is cool and all but slow down on it.) Same with skill speed. I'd take a Great Sword with 110 STR, 107 Det, 109 Vit 90 accuracy and 57 crit rate over the current set of weapons. The beauty of Aetherial gear is the randomized stats which will put it far superior over what you can get now. It's like, the battle system changes they hyped up but it didn't do much in the end and the current gearsets shows they put a lot of faith in the skill/spell speed changes. To give credit though, the spell speed changes are far better than skill speed in the long run.

Edited, Sep 21st 2015 4:32pm by Theonehio
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#47 Sep 21 2015 at 5:34 PM Rating: Good
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Why does hard mode exist in any game, Hio?

Why do some people play Skyrim on Normal while others play it on Legendary?

You can't pull the design flaw argument for Savage - because Alexander is not the first Savage iteration, nor does the previous iteration contain the argument you are talking to. Yet it was still divested of any sort of decent population.

As far as Normal to Savage - it's differences are not all that much different than Second Coil's Normal to Savage. They followed the same forumla, they just tuned it too high, and that's what's frustrating endgame players.

And we're overestimating Aetherical gear. Just because it can drop 210 gear out of golden chests, does not guarantee that will be frequent, or even common. Heck, we don't even know the degree of effort needed to put forth to get a gold chest. That is all speculation being put upon it.

But people who want raid content, and raid-specific rewards, will do Raids. People who don't, or people who want to push for a specific build hoping luck is on their side, or people who don't have the time, will likely do Exploration Voyages.

Also... I feel as if I should point this out, but you just argued against Sky because it's easier than Dynamis. They just widened the progression path. That's not a bad thing in my book.
#48 Sep 21 2015 at 6:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Hard Mode usually offers more challenge and depending on genre, better rewards. Even higher to test their skills. Pretty much everyone who does alexander savage beyond floor 1 and 2 agrees on the design being all kinds of what the **** -- this is why there's a "controversy" going on with the way to clear Floor 4.

Second Coil Norm > Savage made sense though, but with Alexander Story > Savage, they're "marketed" as two different raids because they drop two dfiferent gear sets. Second Coil Savage was done purely for titles and the challenge. Alexander Savage is done for progression. This is the main reason people have issues with it because it's nice they did it..since Story only exists because people didn't want to "git gud" as even the Wandering minstrel (thus yoship) joked.

It's not an overestimate since ilvl210 already has standards and if yoshi was smart, wouldn't put such a gap that you almost never see 210 from gold chests for people will quickly abandon the content if it's to be viewed as an alternate way to progress since as it was said before, people are waking up more and more to the "limitations" this game has when it comes to content because people are getting bored a lot quicker and openly starting to talk about it and not immediately getting shooed off, so it's unlikely if a system falls flat that people will be as accepting as the past because it's 2 years later and it's the only "cap content" addition we have since HW launched aside content people already are done with (Primals, Alex normal unless gearing alts etc). People who want to do raids will do raids..if they actually give us raids we want to do. People only tolerate Alexander Savage because it's the only high end raid we have and people who do it see how flawed it is compared to the previous raids we were given. So that's the major different than the prior formula - Savage Coil 2 was asked for but yoshi punished us in a sense by making it only for a title..which means no real incentive to do it :p
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#49 Sep 21 2015 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Sorry but I just can't agree with your stance on it here Hio. I'm going to leave this one be and let you have your opinions without bantering back and forth on it. This one just seems too hot to touch.

Point being, I'm excited about the new content. I do hope that they keep it somewhat difficult to obtain the good gear out of to give insentive to go back to Savage. Whatever complaints are about Savage Alexander, I hope they listen to and help address for the other two steps coming down the pipeline.

But I don't support the concept of Prestigue Gear only coming from the hardest of raids. Never did, never will.
#50 Sep 22 2015 at 3:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Most of the raids in this game seems to revolve around teamwork, but it doesn't give you any time to type messages to your fellow raid members. 10 minute long fights ends up taking 40 hours to complete for various reasons and one of them is lack of communication. Even if everyone sits on teamspeak, I got pretty confused about where to go in Ravana Ex when people got targeted with swords when everyone started to yell at me where I should go. By the time I understood where to go it was already too late. I did read up on the fight beforehand, but it's hard to know what to do without context.

One of the things I dread about new content is that I have to read up on things. I like to think some content has the difficulty of "read up on wiki" because of it's not entirely clear what you're supposed to do the when you see it but it's a pushover once you've read up on it. After you've cleared it, you'll still wipe on it with new people because of they're going through the same process, but you don't know that part until you've wiped at least once. The Ultros fight is a prime example of a fight where you're guaranteed to wipe at least once because of DPS is taught from the beginning of the game that being in front of the boss is really bad. You do have the law bonus message, but fights differ depending on what role you're doing.

#51 Sep 22 2015 at 5:38 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
But I don't support the concept of Prestigue Gear only coming from the hardest of raids. Never did, never will.

Prestige?

If that's what you meant it's one of those things that's comes with the territory in vertical progression MMOs. Top tier gear comes from top tier raiding, either in the form of raw gear drops or dropped materials used to craft it. Power comes in the form of gear and since gear is used for raiding, players tend to feel slighted if it isn't a reward for their ability to defeat raid content.

It would only make sense to allow players to obtain raid gear for difficult challenges. If this event turns out to be completing a trivial task for a shot at praise from the RNG gods, it doesn't really fit.
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