I finally won't have to raid to endgame!Follow

I do understand what Thayos is saying though..
But I agree with you here and there should be higher gear for those who raid to give those who want to do the harder content a bonus.

It stinks that Tome gear is as good as like coil gear at the time

I also certainly understand having easier gear to obtain for those who dont have the time..

I just think there should be levels of gear.. I am going to use a example from the past on how I thought gear should have been:
Coil = highest level of gear.
CT: Next highest
Tomes: should be the lowest since it requires nothing.

I did coil in the beginning but by doing coil which takes allot of time I was not getting tomes, so people taking the easier rout were gearing faster. This is because of all the time we put in trying to beat coil beating our head against the wall on turn 5 and that is wrong. Its what killed me too on raids in this game as well as others. Yea I could have done it just for the challenge but why? So someone can gear better and pass me up by taking the easy rout by not doing coil. That is why the content aint being done. It is not a waist making this content it is a waste making it if you are not going to give people reason to do it.

Give a reward system that rewards you for actually doing something and this content would not be a waste and people like me would do it. i also would not be so bored running the same-o same-o dungeons all the time.

I mean all my work for the Relic and it was eclipsed like nothing now with the expansion. There should never be tome weapons or quest weapons greater than Relic. Too me it is one of the biggest turn offs for the game. I mean give me a reason too continue on the new weapons path? That sure wasn't it. I mean the relic too by the time you actually finished it the next weapon you got from doing hunts was just as good. So most of the time you relic was barley better than that weapon and now it is garbage. They take away any incentive but to do the easiest content.

I mean in this game vs FFXI everyone has the exact same gear other than glamour nothing sets anyone apart.

Hey it was this way for crafting.. For those who wanted to put in the time got the Lucis.
There was the non meld-able artisan gear too which was easier to get.
Probably why I stopped raiding and picked up crafting.. I was getting better rewards for my work.






Edited, Sep 23rd 2015 2:22pm by Nashred

Edited, Sep 23rd 2015 2:24pm by Nashred

Edited, Sep 23rd 2015 2:35pm by Nashred

You might be right, but there has to be away.

I kind of put myself in the middle between casual and hard core.. I am a little more casual that I was before but I still want challenging content. The difference is I dont need to be the first through it anymore but at the same time give me time to beat it before something new is out or it is buffed for it to be too easy. There is no in between with allot in this game. I dont want to be in a static 4 days a week but one or two is ok.




Edited, Sep 23rd 2015 2:34pm by Nashred

Edited, Sep 23rd 2015 2:34pm by Nashred

Challenging content that doesn't have instant death or be a wall either.. It also can be challenging enough for a fc to make it through. I did almost all FFXI content with friends or LS. Our LS did have certain night where they tackled certain content

I had really only one static in FFXI and that was for the abyssea empyrean weapon and it was kind of a joke really. We spent on night gathering pop items and Sundays killing the stuff. The team was so good and it was only 4 of us we finished it so fast. There were some friends that helped us that would help carry pop items or when we need someone to help proc if we didn't have the job since it was 4 of us. Between us we had the jobs but sometimes it helped. We just had the right group. We took down glaviod when he was hard. I remember watching and waiting our turn when top LS with full alliance and a brew would loose to him.. For us the worst was all the pop items he required. That damn gnat you had to kill.




Edited, Sep 23rd 2015 3:07pm by Nashred

This is how I feel with alliance content. Mighty Warriors of Light defeated because 4 people don't know how to stand on a panel.

In A4 earlier I saw 2 DPS with < half HP get instantly KO'd when they both ran into an orb instead of just moving out of the way and letting me (the OT) soak up the damage. Not very heroic but at least it was funny.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2015 5:02pm by BrokenFox

It's not straw man. That would be if I attacked some fabricated argument I made up for you. I did no such thing. All I've done here is state that rewards should be relative to the activity. If it doesn't have anything to do with your principles then that's your problem, but I didn't create your principles for you so I would have something to attack you for. Please stop saying straw man.



That's how progression works Hyrist. Players of varied 'skill' can all participate in content. The bottleneck in progression is always gear before skill. If you took some no skill players and increased their gear incrementally, they could eventually clear anything. Conversely, if you took the best skilled players in the world and put them against increasingly difficult encounters with the same gear level, they would eventually hit a wall.

I got one-shotted in Destiny once when I ran up to a boss and punched it in the butt... does that count?

Again, stated my opinions on the native flaws of progression, Filthy, arguing "that's how it works" is irreverent when I'm putting 'how it works' into question. You don't seem to get that.

Even if you try to deny the term strawman, we are at this point entering a circular argument, so I'm just stopping there.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2015 7:43pm by Hyrist

cue Jim Carrey face

"why can't I eat all these balls"

*slinks away*

Then you have the DPS who just eat 3 of them in a row without letting a heal get in. They then proceed to rage on the healer...

People tend to go on the offensive (or rather get defensive) when it seems you're "attacking" the game rather than someone in particular as well. Take this post for example:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/263518-3.1-needs-to-be-absolutely-great?p=3336923&viewfull=1#post3336923

The guy quoted wasn't necessarily wrong because that's generally what happens with the current formula. No one would ever have a reason to be "negative" if no reason is given, however one of the first responses? "Get out" essentially.



^ This. However since you're talking to non-raiders it doesn't bother them because they can reap the rewards, most likely better rewards, and not have to deal with "hard content." These vertical progression games, especially XIV's style tend to not be exactly the precedent of horizontal or alternate progression.

That's why I've said it before and I'll say it again...Heavensward was a massive disspointment because there's so much they could have done and simply chose not to because they knew they would keep the people who -don't- play the game happy regardless. It's definitely not a strawman, those who don't raid simply don't care or won't ever understand or simply say:

"this game isn't for you"

despite MMOs traditionally have a raid component that's relevant to progression..ESPECIALLY when trying to follow WoW's example, which no one can deny because the guy who heads this game has said it directly.

I'm aware of the lot Pinata system though I know it more from the adaptation of it in the Diablo Series than most other games. Keep in mind that, outside level bracketing, loot pinatas often don't exclusivity their drops to harder content, rather increase their drop rates within the system. Highly RNG but because of the frequency of reward, it keeps an anticipation of the next run.

I actually think this system is what's going on with Exploration Missions. And while people can pine at their luck being worse than someone else, there are convincing counter-arguments about the differences between the system. Certainty reliant on skill verses lesser difficulty but reliant on luck - both require the core component that equalizes these systems, persistence. At the element that could balance Exploration Missions, that of the best loot being difficult to obtain by having a narrow margin of chance, fits well within the mention that this hails back to the older days of MMOs - in which good loot had a low chance of showing.

And again, these kind of arguments about their work falls flat when we're now into the 24 man Raid era, where players will be getting access to equivalent gear through other methods regardless - so the Raiders at this point have had their chance (still, have their chance) to obtain their loot before the masses get their shot at it - and, within the existing system, it is doubly balanced out that the loot from Alexander is still Alexander specific, barring currency upgrades that were always slated to be more than just Raid-specific. So, while undoubtedly some people will chime in being upset, I ultimately can't agree with that perspective - again, coming from someone who feels that endgame should be skill based and forego the stopgap measure of entropic gear-checks.

________________________________
In my proposed changes, the gearing requirement in progression would be pretty much limited to pre-raid gearing, at least for the 'apex' level endgame, which would be like Savage Coil and Savage Alexander. (Except in other categories besides just raiding.) While the rewards from these things would not be progression gearing a part of progression raiding is also learning to understand and adapt to new mechanics of a fight as you attempt it. My version would place more empasis on this, rather than focus on the treadmill of gearing within the raid itself.

Truthfully 'progression' raiding equates to a skipping record, and the gearing part of that is just a time-sink. There are better, more entertaining time-sinks that can be applied here than forcing gear progression within the highest raid itself, which is why I went with a currency/scoring system.

If you are concerned with the idea of players who could not meet the mechanics at the optimal tuning, and that it would bring the difficulty of these raids down. Don't. Scaling difficulty tiers as well as Item Level Caps could be programmed into the system much the same way you have difficulty brackets for scoring. The currency, or even the unique rewards, could be split up among these tiers, encouraging people to practice and push the higher difficulties.

The system, of course, wouldn't please everyone, but I have a feeling it would populate endgame a lot better than the current trend of systems.

A lot of the more successful games in their respective Genres have been able to improve their game quality by adapting RPG and MMO elments into them. I feel as if the reverse would also be true. It's worth mulling over, at least.

Edited, Sep 24th 2015 10:52am by Hyrist