I finally won't have to raid to endgame!Follow

The only thing I didn't really like about the 1/2/5 setup was that tank loot was always uncontested if the tank wanted it. Every other job had to deal with potential duplicates in the party in terms of loot. The healer, for instance, would always have to compete with another healer.

Here's the thing. The major problem with trying to pool like minded people, is getting them together. Pooling your interest base, in this case, putting casual and hardcore raiders together in a single action space with Arcade, instead of segmenting it so terribly with separate difficulty levels, will help facilitate the necessary networking.

Some of the wider system adjustments that SE could produce to help this in general is cross-server partying, and cross-server communications, but those are difficult undertakings. But those are sperate areas from the perview of the discussion. I was putting a different spin on this formula:



^ This, really shouldn't be the status quo, even in progression content. Because it achieves nothing. In mostcases including FFXIV the gear you get from raiding is only valid for the content you're currently doing. And going beyond that also causes uproar among the base.

I'm not proposing that we remove the steps, but that we change the way the second and third steps go. When starting on difficult content and still farming gear, that process is quicker and you're working on the lower-grade mechanics of said difficult content. Once you're fully geared (which does not involve the raid itself), you start pushing for accomplishment for rewards not part of the Hampster wheel. Something that your endgame groups would hold onto for much longer than an ilvl shift.

Right now the rewards given in that category are slim.

As far as grouping:

At the lower end of difficulty, needing an organized setup should be minimal. A pug could go in, take the easiest route, cash some currency towards their goals. Higher end players will be pushing up that said difficulty with more organized groups. The point is to lobby them both together in something scaling. So that players that want to organize, can more readily find those who can, and those that don't, will find a more ready pool of those who've got the free time to hop in.

My thought is why is there not different avenues of progression?

If I enjoyed raiding, that implies I like the majority of my playtime spent in large groups participating in super challenging fights requiring static parties being online together spending hours formulating strategies. With the gear or boons I acquire from content making me more powerful in raid content to lead to more difficult content.

If i enjoyed soloing/duoing, that implies I like the majority of my playtime spent in solo/duo groups participating in easy-challenging-super challenging fights requiring one other member or none formulating strategies. With the gear or boons I acquire from content making me more powerful in solo/duo content to lead to more difficult content.

I would repeat the breakdown for each playstyle but don't want to write a book here. If I pvp I expect pvp gear or boons to make me more powerful in pvp content and that gear would vary if I did 1v1 or 12v12.

If raiding is going to have it's place in the game. It cannot be the end all/be all gear/boons for all content & it can't be super difficult or required for content unlocks not related to itself. People play a game for doing content they enjoy. If player X doesn't like raiding but it is the cornerstone of all and content is gated by that, then that leads to people not being happy or feeling respected.



All game playing has some form of grind involved. There is no work around here especially in a subscription based service. You either give a player a grind they can invest many hours in or watch them unsubscribe and resubscribe if it fills their drive periodically. Players only stick around for long periods if content is engaging and relevant to how they want to progress.

SE could fill raids with the most content filled, world acclaimed systems, dynamic content/rewards, make raids turn a players hands into gold or make them learn 35 languages to say cuss words in. If someone doesn't want to raid, it won't matter. It may sound like I am anti-raid, but I like raids sometimes, and sometimes I do not.

For the real world analogy. It is not always how much time you put in out in the real world. It is, what are you putting your work into in the hours you work. A single mom could drive a benz if they had the intention, a plan, and worked their butt off towards that plan relentlessly regardless of common failures no matter how limited their hours were, 1% inspiration 99% perspiration.

I think classes should have horizontal progression for open world or instanced content designed towards low man play. Either that or just removes classes and keep their abilities for job utility. Oh and raids should not be removed just have their scope not affect other play styles.

-Raids should have the best boons for large group party play.
-Dungeons should have the best boons for normal group party play.
-Group pvp should have the best boons for group pvp play.
-etc
-etc

A big problem with that is getting exactly 24 people who can commit to the same day each which and have every one make that week is nigh on impossible.

That leaves you with a few unpleasant options:

- Go in without the full 24 (undersized party) and be potentially hampered by that
- Fill in the missing spaces with pick ups in PF, which puts us more or less where we are today
- Have a pool of people in your group larger than 24, then do first-come first-serve (we had to do this with Dynamis-Tavnazia.) The issue then becomes people getting left out.

Without scalable content, there's no good way to have a very large, flexibly sized group of people of varying sizes doing a thing.

Thayos, we're talking about the exact same thing. SCALABLE CONTENT. Content that can be done with as few as you want to or as many as you need.

Woot! We all find common ground!

And this is especially needed in a vertical progression game whose areas/content becomes outleveled as level and ilevel caps raise. Not just dungeons, not just raids, not just fates, it needs to be scalable throughout. Players should be able to do content they want, with who they want, and when they want, otherwise grouping becomes an obstacle instead of building community. Perhaps a toggle for choosing to sync/scale in the open world.

The FC system already has things in place to reward players for being in an FC. It needs to reward doing things together versus only being a reward for residing in an FC. And there needs to be more content in acknowledgment of FC doing things together.

Filthy, you don't seem to understand it. That, right there, is being put into question.

More and more of game's player base are pushing away from the idea of organized raiding to accomplish anything. Back in the past, it seemed easy to get a 64 man premade going for something like Dynamis. And you had the bulk of that be regular attendees for those days.

Now, you're lucky if you find 8 regularly, let alone 24, and 24 is the hugest we go.

Further and further we are pushing away from the concept of dedicated raiding. And designing a game around something that is inaccessible to someone means that the game can quickly become inhospitable to them.

We've already come up with good solutions. We know what is - we don't expect it to change dramatically. We're just debating academically what compromises in the system could be made, and I was explaining my viewpoints on how the progression system could further evolve.

Right now? I don't think the idea of the Arcade style raid is a bad one. It can even, as a means of compromise, fit in the current 'progression' system some holdouts want to cling to. As well as set the leader-board/difficulty to scale on who's participating. (in addition to the dynamic difficulty I mentioned earlier.)

But we're trending away from hardcore raiding, moreso than the niche it was before. Sweetening the honeypot at the end of it won't solve this problem. It's a logistics issue. Scaling participation could help greatly but won't bring more in. Something more substantial, I feel, needs to be shaken up.

Again, it's not as if I'm hating on the game. I just feel that there are places they can go with it. I'm still ecstatic that there's a more exploratory version of path of endgame. But I feel they need to make it more engaging than it is, and give some lasting rewards, instead of focusing on the hamster wheel.

My major issue with Coil the first time through was that someone was ALWAYS late. This is just with 8 people, and of course on release, this content needs to be done with regulars. So then of course you say, well if they keep up the tardiness, replace them permanently. Then someone gets frustrated they'll have to teach everything all over again and leaves the static. It just goes on and on and with getting replacements that it gets frustrating.

So sure, big man content will work, like Dynamis where you don't NEED the maximum of people and can accomplish something with less then an optimal group. The other big thing as Thayos pointed out, that time of night just hits you and you think...ok, I'm mentally checking out. So things like savage go out the windows cause you're just not up for it. My buddy and I were just talking about it the other day, we play quite of bit of Diablo and want to have big play sessions but just can't do it like we used to. There are some days, I'm free all day and plan to make it a huge gaming day. I then get distracted and next to no gaming gets done...it's odd.

I think it's a bit of both. Granted, not every gamer in my age group is exactly the same -- some have more time to play. But I'm married without kids, so I have more time than many, but still not enough time to commit to hardcore raiding. MMOs that continue to centralize hardcore raids are bound to find that content to be further ignored/trivialized as time goes on.

Hardcore raids may be the last core component of Everquest-generation games to go by the wayside, but I do believe that time is coming.

Then let me lay forth a possible solution for perhaps addressing those issues you mentioned.

Solution for Having to seek out a group
-Have areas with raids have additional content in the area for smaller groups and solo content.(The key the smaller groups progress via token but much slower than big groups)

This would create a group of like-minded people and increase the pool of available players.(They would queue while doing their solo/low man thing or have auto-group turned on)

To maintain raid difficulty, bosses could be instanced or phased like leves are so lag does not get increased being in an open world area with way more people.

Solution for easing learning time
An In depth map system:
Remember those maps on google that players make to show key things? They help tremendously, but it causes two issues. The first is players still have to do all the work and secondly all those maps are not centralized so it is a hard finding the perfect one. What if SE did all the work for us?
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/ffxi/images/2/2e/New_dynamis_xarc.gif/revision/latest?cb=20110524092825

The map could have information like time extensions locations, spawn points, dotted lines showing traversal directions, and waypoints. All which would have tool tips for learning more information on hand such as drops, warnings, etc.

One tool-tip could be a hover and click on a bosses name on the map and watch a brief cutscene based on the jobs role you are currently playing which would show your things to watch out for in that specific encounter. Or it could just be a cutscene via the echo that triggers in the vicinity of a boss when first approaching. Of course the writing tips on screen would not be basketball and would be similar to a FFXIV dungeon guide on youtube but a short condensed version.



This would ease learning time, improve player awareness, and not have the player doing extra work outside the game.

Another Solution to bridge the gap between casual and hardcore
Thayo said he didn't have time to devote to hardcore raids which time duration could be anywhere from 1-6 hours. Well why couldn't there be a waypoint system in content that is longer than thirty minutes.

A)There could be a dotted line/or footsteps on map showing the traversal path for reaching the said waypoints from waypoint 1-X.
B)Unlocking the waypoints consist of getting a clear on a key boss in the area for that leg.
C)Let's say the time it takes to reach each waypoint is about 30 min.Upon reaching waypoint 3, your leg of the group area is saved up that point. So if you or friends wanted to leave. You could do so and come back to that point when you want to continue. The rest of the group could either continue getting new members or leave as well.

All you have cleared up to that point will be saved and will be there when you get back.

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/41898/gw261.jpg

I had an idea for this waypoint system earlier, but it was for a new type of leve called journey leves which SE never explored. I guess these new map features would be easier to navigate with mouse but SE could retro-fit it to work with a controller too.

What else could be included as information on these improved maps, what would you add to it?
Edited in: They could even show the footsteps on the screen, you could toggle it on or off.
White= Main traversal destination
Red= Boss destination for that leg
Blue= Branching optional paths
Gold=Treasure coffer destinations
Silver=Locked door requiring key item
Green=Party leaders location

Edited, Oct 3rd 2015 12:18pm by sandpark

I don't think most are opposed to the challenge. It's finding 7 other players of similar skill, who are on time and won't bail after 2 weeks. It's always been the issue with these fights on release, one meh player and you're toast. Then someone has to have the balls to call them out, which usually doesn't go well. People leave, you try to replace and the cycle just keeps repeating itself. My FCs statics have had so many replacements I'm often amazed they even keep the thing going all together.

This is why I will always love fighting games for competitive challenges. It's all on you, you lose, it's your own fault, no one else.