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#27 Dec 27 2015 at 2:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Incidentally, I've still never gotten a clear on Ravana EX either.


Not surprising, have you run into Ravana Hard Mode in DF? It's almost 100% guaranteed failure for your first 2-3 attempts. "Alright guys, remember to take down the Ganas once they pop". Realize I'm the only dps attacking them, and wipe. 2-3 people rage, some ask what they did wrong, you bring it up again...and same thing the second go.

Is it all MMOs that attract these types of players? It seems absurd the amount of people who just don't give a damn. I guess you can't really compare it with other online games, but most of them weed out bad players.
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#28 Dec 27 2015 at 8:31 PM Rating: Good
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Well, it is what it is. A simple thing that people do pretty much all the time, yet it keeps them from proceeding in 'difficult' dungeons because they can't seem to do it on command with any consistency. Go figure.

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That... was pretty much my point all along. Therefore I don't know why you argued against me saying that Savage gear shouldn't be buffed, using the defense that it would apparently make Savage "too easy" and therefore would have to be made harder.

I argue that buffing the gear is unnecessary because it's always been used in progression content as the gate. Gear is the key to power and as that power increases, so too should the power of encounters that players face. It's true that it would have no impact on players who can't execute mechanics, but for anyone else it would make the rest of what was tuned to be difficult, well... less difficult.

Fynlar wrote:
Last I heard, even some of the "hardcore raiders" were saying that A3S/A4S was tuned too high, so I don't know if you should be speaking for them when, in your admission, you aren't one.

I agree with them. The encounter is overtuned, but that in itself is reason to re-tune the raid. Arbitrary buff to gear is still not a solution. Again, I get that you're saying it's not going to hurt anyone, but it does have an impact on players who can execute.

While I don't currently raid XIV, I raided hardmodes in WoW from late vanilla to the current expansion. I bring this up because I remember what happened when item level was increased in WoW. My raid group went from getting through the phase of the boss we were progressing on roughly 1/10th of the time(and usually in too poor a state to continue much further) to never failing to get to the final phase(barring derp which usually occurred in the first phase).

The buff to gear was only a 5 item level increase. To put it into perspective, the difference between LFR(super easy) and normal(still very easy) was a 15 item level jump. The change seems small, but it's compounded when you spread that out across 20 players who can properly execute mechanics the majority of the time. None of us complained because we still had another difficulty setting to progress through, but that is not an option in XIV. This is why I say that the content would need to be buffed to compensate. It is speculation, but it's speculation based on previous experience in progression raiding.

SE needs to go back and re-tune the encounters and not just to give players an arbitrary buff. Fix A3S and A4S because they're broken, not because you don't want to upset casual players who want gear that is way overpowered for any of the content they're participating in.


Edited, Dec 27th 2015 9:33pm by FilthMcNasty
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#29 Dec 28 2015 at 11:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah therein lies the fun part:

If Second and Final Coil is destroying you at level 60, it's more of a problem of people not learning the fight, but everyone who's had Second and Final Coil on farm status has said with the exception of 7 (original version), 8, 12 and 13 it was all extremely easy and hell Turn 12 was a victory lap in comparison to 10 and 11, especially final coil which is why YoshiP was actually upset when he heard FC was "easy" considering clear rate of FC was absurdly quicker than Binding Coil and Second Coil and I'm not talking about "world firsts", because that doesn't matter to people who raid for themselves, I'm talking about general clear rate people hit Turn 13 very fast compared to hitting Turn 5 and Turn 9. Turn 13 however a whole different ballpark.

Midas sitting in between Second and Final purely depends on the type of mechanics, otherwise that's not really difficult because Second Coil wasn't that tough, Final Coil was purely mechanics that could instantly end the run (T10 tethers for example) but not necessarily hard.

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No, it's more of a testament to how elitist you have to be to regularly clear this sort of content without getting utterly fed up by constant failures.


No..It's a testament of how easy the game's content is. Has nothing to do with elitism, especially since YoshiP stated himself the difficulty was set lower for Thordan but it's extremely mechanic driven (it is.) Ravana Ex is absurdly harder than Thordan Ex but Thordan Ex is simply longer, there's not even a DPS check in the fight aside hard enrage that every fight have. I mean, you do want to burn the add down quickly if you want to take overall less damage but that's more than doable if everyone is actually paying attention. Trust me, Elitism has nothing to do when the game's content is very easy, which is why A3S and A4S being overtuned is silly.

A3S is a wall for many raid groups because the coordination ONTOP of DPS check is insane, like I said if you mess up just ONE part of the fight in A3S you're done. There's no recovering because you run the risk of hitting hard enrage, the fight is literally designed to take the full enrage timer which is why you just barely beat it at times.

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So in other words, it's more of a testament of how impatient and intolerant the playerbase is. Doesn't really speak for the difficulty of the content at all, because no matter how easy/hard it is you will still get PF groups like that on day 1.


I agree people are impatient and intolerant, because you still have people who seemingly don't care about dodging AoEs and such, you too would get tired of people taking unnecessary damage or constantly messing up simple mechanics they've seen and dealt with before (thordan is basically a amalgamation of mechanics from 2.0 - 3.0 so if you have access you did primals and HW bosses before.)

For instance: Ramuh and Shiva circles (lightning/ice), you know to not stack for that, right? If anything they're consistent about keeping similar mechanics the same throughout the game, much like people I personally know have Second Coil clears (and cleared the HW storyline obviously) end up getting petrified endlessly by Echidna's Petrifaction. Turn 7 and Research Facility both has that mechanic, so you should know to look away and not tunnel vision DPS.

So yeah, I won't say it's elitism simply because the content itself isn't that hard. It's really not, but the fact there's so few capable of doing the content is more of a testament of the game not properly training players which is why those who decide to push themselves, can do the content and those who do not..well, you run into them in DF that wipes the party constantly for failing simple mechanics. (Like when we say: Stay off Bismarck if you have x stacks, people still flood onto his back and kill themselves.)

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SE needs to go back and re-tune the encounters and not just to give players an arbitrary buff. Fix A3S and A4S because they're broken, not because you don't want to upset casual players who want gear that is way overpowered for any of the content they're participating in.


This - It's overtuned. Raiders don't want easier content, just WELL DESIGNED content. Trust me, if you actually did A3S and A4S you'd agree immediately something is off. You have to cheese A4S as a basic strategy because it's that terribly designed. It's not like cheesing Caduceus in Turn 1 by not feeding and just burning him down nowadays, you literally can't complete A4S unless you cheese past certain checks.

I will say though - If for example Ravana Ex clear is a wall, that can warp your perception of the game because Ravana Ex isn't hard, at all. Compared to Bismarck Ex originally? ****, Bismarck was the REAL primal of 3.0, Ravana Ex was just a victory lap for an i190 weapon. This is why people were pissed about Bismarck dropping Obsolete weapons because it didn't match the difficulty, and with Ravana being easier (and based on Lodestone parsing, there's well over 240,000 ravana achivement gains) it just felt...bleh. So I don't doubt people can't get through content, but that doesn't change the content is in fact easy and Savage Alexander (3/4) is overtuned and poorly designed because Savage Coil was optional and thrown in as a fun little side thing to do for titles so people can see the original difficulty of Second Coil before hitting the live servers, no one requested that kind of difficulty for raid content for actual progression - not even the "top raiders" because in a game designed where bosses give you tells, having fight without telegraphs is just silly from a design perspective.

Hopefully by 3.3-4.0 things change.



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#30 Dec 28 2015 at 12:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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If Second and Final Coil is destroying you at level 60, it's more of a problem of people not learning the fight


I don't understand the insistence of these fights not being difficult. If they really were that easy, then they wouldn't have such steep learning curves requiring nearly mistake-free gameplay.

There's a middle ground here, though.

Learning these fights can be extremely difficult because you need people who are on the same page with you, hence the need for hardcore raiding statics. And even with a static, groups can spend weeks trying to beat single fights. Yes, that is difficulty. If the fights were easy, then it wouldn't take so long for statics to beat them. Note... I'm talking about the actual hardcore raids here and not extreme primals, which still aren't "easy" but not as difficult as the raids.

However, once you learn the fights, then suddenly they're easy. That's because these fights are dance routines. Once you've learned the dance routine, then you know it... it's not like the dance routine is every going to randomly change on you. But until you've memorized the routine, then it's hard because you don't yet know it.

I get why hardcore raiders think these fights are easy. Most of them have statics, and they were able to learn and execute these fights months ago, and they've been bored with nothing new to learn since then. It's easy to mistake that feeling of boredom for content being easy.

Also, FWIW, I also don't have a Ravana Ex clear yet. I was on the forefront of people who beat Bis Ex, but then I got busy with work for a couple weeks and missed out on the rush of people clearing Rav Ex. And I have absolutely zero desire to tackle the fight with people who I don't know, because chances are they wouldn't be prepared for serious attempts at winning. In addition to these fights being difficult, they're downright frustrating when you keep getting paired with people who obviously made no effort to prepare.

Edited, Dec 28th 2015 10:19am by Thayos
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#31 Dec 28 2015 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
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If Second and Final Coil is destroying you at level 60, it's more of a problem of people not learning the fight


I don't understand the insistence of these fights not being difficult. If they really were that easy, then they wouldn't have such steep learning curves requiring nearly mistake-free gameplay.

-Snip-


Because they're not, hence why in an interview yoshi was asked about what he thought of players saying FC felt easy in comparison to Binding Coil and even Second Coil. They're not cake walks because you need to learn it, but the difficulty of a lot of Second and Final Coil fights come from instant death mechanics, which honestly isn't really what you can consider difficulty. You mess up the Fires in Turn 12? Game over. Tanks don't properly swap in Turn 12 or 11? game over. You and your Tethered partner in Turn 11 run away from each other? Gameover. Stuff like that needs mistake free gameplay, yes..but that's not hard to do.

We all make mistakes but it's virtually impossible to make the same mistakes over and over and over for 80+ minutes every single day/week. Sooner or later you'll realize just how easy the fight is because Coil above all is extremely scripted. There's hints of randomness here and there but they aren't exactly going to randomly be a brand new fight every time you go into it.

It's not like in FFXI where take for example you go to fight King Behemoth and today he just feels like his only casting he'll do is dropping meteors on everyone and not once use his armor skill. Or you choose to fight Fafhogg back in the day and he decided he wanted to spam terror. XIV isn't like that, you know each and every time you go into an encounter they'll use x at y% or use Roar EVERY single time it swipes at you 3 times. This is why it's very easy to say the content isn't that difficult, because it's not. Once you learn the dance it becomes quite clear just how easy it really easy. Mechanics make things seem harder than it is, hence why I said Alexander Midas sitting between Second and Final Coil will be extremely disappointing DEPENDING on the mechanics they throw into it.

I bet at this point you could do Ifrit blind folded. The same concept with doing end-game content and why Savage Alexander is extremely silly, because it's overtuned that no matter how well you do, how geared you get how skilled your party is, the margin of error is significantly lower than ANY other content. You can recover from a messy tether in Final Coil, you can recover from a messy Megaflare in Turn 13...you cannot recover from a messy Nisi, you will not recover from 1 - 2 bombs dropping in AS1, you will not recover from terrible bomb control in AS2, you will not recover from a ****** up hands of pain or protein wave at the start of the fight.

Quote:
I get why hardcore raiders think these fights are easy. Most of them have statics, and they were able to learn and execute these fights months ago, and they've been bored with nothing new to learn since then. It's easy to mistake that feeling of boredom for content being easy.


Most of my clears weren't in statics, but that's because on the JP server people are...suffice to say, far more serious and understanding that you're playing with 7 other people. Just from my PUGs in Sarga and Balmung, it feels NA players are far more "me me me" than anything, they don't care if they sneak into a clear party or "have experience" since it'll be obvious when you get found out, but why sneak into it in the first place? Even on the JP server people that try to sneak in at least research, you never heard: "Why should I have to watch a video or read a guide?" It goes a long way to come in with some idea of the fight, people are more tolerant then. So yes, thing gets easier as you do it, but difficult encounters remain difficult even if you know it, because they're designed to put all of your skill and gear to the test.

A big problem is, Yoshi gloated about how You will NOT be able to clear Turn 12 without Turn 10 and 11 gear...we found that to be ABSOLUTELY false. It was overhyped in how difficult it was, that's why people find it easy because with Binding Coil 1, you actually struggled through 4 and 5 without gear even if you know the fight because it was balanced in such a way that the gear actually helps you rather than being an after thought compared to later content design.

This is why A3S shattered A TON of statics and caused people to hop servers to find salvation for new ones - It was overtuned and not really hard in a logical way, it was hard because even if you did every mechanic properly, if you didn't have the DPS..you enraged long before the fight is halfway over.

Edited, Dec 28th 2015 1:41pm by Theonehio
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#32 Dec 28 2015 at 3:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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They're not cake walks because you need to learn it, but the difficulty of a lot of Second and Final Coil fights come from instant death mechanics, which honestly isn't really what you can consider difficulty.


You and I seem to agree about how the fights are designed. But if something has a difficult learning curve, then that thing you're learning can logically be called difficult (otherwise it would be easy to learn, like Alexander NM).

I do believe (and I've said this before) that I feel memorization is kind of a cheap form of difficulty -- and that's why these fights become instantly easy once you learn the dance routine. But the learning curve is legit, as is the need for statics if you play on a NA server. Heck, I couldn't even clear Bismark Ex until I ran it with FC members because I couldn't find seven other people through the party finder who understood all phases of the fight... and still, my FC wiped several times before everyone finally made it through the fight relatively mistake free!

So, yeah... while I agree it's totally lazy for SE to base these fights so heavily on jump-rope mechanics -- and while I don't think jump-rope mechanics are a true test of skill as opposed to battles that actually make you think on your feet, rather than follow a script -- the degree of difficulty in trying to get eight people to perform free of mistakes can't be denied, nor can the initial difficulty of learning the dance routine.

Also, I can't pin it all on "everyone but me." Even after watching fight tutorial videos on YouTube, I often need to die several times before I develop the proper timing for skipping that rope. So, again, there is difficulty -- these fights aren't easy, or far more people would have clears.

Yoshi was talking about "ease" of content in the context of the small percentage of more hardcore players who've actually been messing with endgame raids. In the past, he's very plainly said that the current endgame raid tier is always designed to be difficult when first released, then eased up as time passes so more casual players can complete it.



Edited, Dec 28th 2015 1:59pm by Thayos
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#33 Dec 28 2015 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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I fear that developers have streamlined today's games so much that you don't even have to talk to anyone to get most of what you want out of the game. Everything I did in FFXI, all of the people I met and the knowledge I acquired was a result of me responding to other players asking for help or reaching out to others myself. Games really feel empty without that and I think that's one of the things XIV has working against it. For all of the gripes I've had with this game over the past going on 5 years now, my biggest is the lack of communication in the in-game community.

If someone told me I could broadcast any message to the entirety of the XIV community, it would be this...

It's better to be thought a noob for 5 minutes than to remain a noob for a lifetime.

People are so scared someone will look down on them for not knowing something that they'd rather hold themselves and everyone else around them back. I've generally found that the people who are willing to ask questions or respond to them are more likely to be successful in the more difficult content these games have to offer. That was pretty much the sole reason my HNM shell even had an application. Not because I was elitist and required only the best, but I wanted people who genuinely wanted to be there.

XIV started to feel more like a game that people occupied just for the sake of being there than actually enjoying it. "I want to raid because, well... I mean what else am I gonna do" sort of feeling. I see it all around the game too. So many players I ran across who refused to ask questions and the mere mention of a suggestion to self-educate evoked an equally uninspired response. Their lips would move and words would come out, but the only message coming across clearly is "I can barely motivate myself to show up to this raid. What makes you think I'd take the time to research what's expected of me by watching a clear, concise and well thought out youtube tutorial" Smiley: sly



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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#34 Dec 28 2015 at 6:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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For all of the gripes I've had with this game over the past going on 5 years now, my biggest is the lack of communication in the in-game community.


Filth, I've obviously found more enjoyment in the game than you have... but of the various things I've voiced concerns about, the lack of in-game communication has always been at the top of my list.

It's a two-part problem, imo:

1) Infrastructure.

In FFXI, linkshells were the primary tool for grouping, and you could join as many as you want. In FFXIV, FCs are the primary tool for grouping, and you can only join one. While linkshells still exist in FFXIV, not many people use them because it's just not part of the game's culture. I sincerely believe FFXIV's in-game community would have been immediately more vibrant had people not felt confined to just one sub-community. Months ago, Yoshi said FC alliances would be coming sometime during the HW cycle, but I haven't heard anything about this since.

2) Content requiring groups.

The only content in the game that encourages grouping are the endgame hardcore raids, which, by their unforgiving learning curves, provide strong incentives for people to form statics (to the point where Yoshi had to address that A4S was significantly damaging in-game communities by causing groups of friends to split apart as hardcore players sought more capable statics elsewhere). Nothing else in the game requires a group. Diadem COULD have filled this role, but it really doesn't. And from what Yoshi said in his last live letter, it sounds like the dev team is going to ease the need to make premade groups for the Diadem even further (by making it more palatable in the DF).

Until now, I've been satisfied with the casual banter that can happen within DF parties by taking some initiative to start convos. People often want to talk; we've ran the same dungeons countless times, and nobody really likes being bored. I'm at the point now though where I'm expecting the game to provide something more -- hence my disappointment with how the Diadem turned out.

Ironically, as I debate whether to continue my subscription to the game, one of the biggest factors toward wanting to stay is that I have a decent FC, and we've picked up several new members over the past three or four weeks. I really want to experience that social element of online gaming. But if I do log in, then what are we going to do? The lack of group-oriented content outside of hardcore raiding (which very few people in my FC do) kind of negates having a cool group to do things with.


Edited, Dec 28th 2015 4:16pm by Thayos
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#35 Aug 27 2016 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Right then, as per this half of the live letter:

Diadem changes weren't announced except for that they're adding new missions which will drop ilvl235, which means it's about to be DOA like Bismarck EX considering entry ilvl of 3.4 is 250 as per interviews (which are easily crafted as he said.)

So with lore tomes unlocking, easy to upgrade to 240, Nidhogg Ex/PoTD for 235 weapons...I don't think Diadem is going to be revived until much, much later. Unless he's holding back information for the TGS live letter, it sounds like the ilvls were decided and meant to happen sooner rather than later.

So as for now, it sounds like even with aetherial 235 gear, Diadem will be something to do outside of The Creator and Sophia since the other content they mentioned sounds like it's going to have some restrictions on it but his usual "please look forward to it" when he could have just spent 3-4 hours giving the full set of information -________-

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#36 Aug 27 2016 at 1:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I've never touched Diadem and the more I hear about it the less I want to
#37 Aug 27 2016 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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So unless it's for materials for the crafted 250 sets, I really don't think they know what they want to do with Diadem.

230 Lore Gear
230 Weeping City gear
235 Nidhogg Ex weapon/Palace of the Dead weapon
240 Augmented Lore (easily obtained
245 Midan Weapon

3.4:
235/240 Dungeon Gear
235 Diadem Gear
245 Sophia Ex Weapon (or accessories.)
250 Crafted/Creator (Normal)
270/275 Creator Gear (Savage)

So 240/250 will be a baseline which he even stated will be "mass produced as it will be easier than 3.2's crafted gear to make." So Diadem literally has no purpose unless they shoehorn in materials we'll need for the crafted gear which would explain why they'd change the spoil conversion rate. (No one does or did Prime Diadem strictly for the materia Vs with Craft/Gather being an exception.)

So if this version of Diadem is fun/different it could be worth doing for that purpose and everything else is optional..but since of course he doesn't want to show anything off until close to the patch, we won't know for a month.

Edited, Aug 27th 2016 3:38pm by Theonehio
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#38 Aug 27 2016 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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If 235 is all Diadem is getting, then yeah, nothing will change. It'll still just be for DoLing up materials for the few that care to do it, just like how it is now (or was, anyway, prior to 3.38, since I hear even that is less profitable now that the anima stuff no longer needs to be crafted)
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