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#202 Mar 22 2016 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Simply put people like myself and Thayos enjoy high challenging games but hate all the bulls***/commitment that surrounds hardcore online raiding

Edited, Mar 22nd 2016 6:50pm by BrokenFox
#203 Mar 22 2016 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
In a fantasy land in which I could put everything else on pause -- and find seven other mature adults with the same magic power -- I'd love hardcore raiding!
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#204 Mar 22 2016 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Plus throwing seven other people into the equation just makes it a massive chore
#205 Mar 22 2016 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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BrokenFox wrote:
Simply put people like myself and Thayos enjoy high challenging games but hate all the bulls***/commitment that surrounds hardcore online raiding

Edited, Mar 22nd 2016 6:50pm by BrokenFox


And luckily, XIV has no hardcore raiding. It's either faceroll easy in order to not "halt player progress" in Yoshi's own words, or it's content that requires knowing how to play the game and how to maximize your job (which said prior content doesn't need so it just seems "hardcore" in comparison.) This is why people tend to get pissed off easier in this game, not only is it more accessible (thus bigger range of players including the jackoffs) but the game is just so easy from a design standpoint it's just, how do you have issues after the game is purposefully setup to teach you how to play?

Like the infamous Ice Mages, never were you taught spamming Blizzard I - IV was good damage or a proper rotation, you're told (by both the game and other players with a brain) Fire is your main DPS spell and swapping umbral/astral is part of the strategy. Yet somehow, we got into a trend where certain BLMs for quite awhile during HW decided Blizzard is the new rotation and "Enochain" is optional. (Why no one would want faster and harder hitting spell casting is beyond me.)

Then again, after working on my Sarga alt in this raid cycle, I've noticed quite the decline in...so to say, "decent" people from a social aspect, so I guess it's not too surprising why some would feel a certain way about this game's endgame. Even 2 of the new people who joined today that joined my alt's FC basically quit after running her first dungeon because people absolutely railed into her for not knowing how to tank properly yet.
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#206 Mar 22 2016 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
Simply put people like myself and Thayos enjoy high challenging games but hate all the bulls***/commitment that surrounds hardcore online raiding

Edited, Mar 22nd 2016 6:50pm by BrokenFox


And luckily, XIV has no hardcore raiding. It's either faceroll easy in order to not "halt player progress" in Yoshi's own words, or it's content that requires knowing how to play the game and how to maximize your job (which said prior content doesn't need so it just seems "hardcore" in comparison.) This is why people tend to get ****** off easier in this game, not only is it more accessible (thus bigger range of players including the jackoffs) but the game is just so easy from a design standpoint it's just, how do you have issues after the game is purposefully setup to teach you how to play?

Like the infamous Ice Mages, never were you taught spamming Blizzard I - IV was good damage or a proper rotation, you're told (by both the game and other players with a brain) Fire is your main DPS spell and swapping umbral/astral is part of the strategy. Yet somehow, we got into a trend where certain BLMs for quite awhile during HW decided Blizzard is the new rotation and "Enochain" is optional. (Why no one would want faster and harder hitting spell casting is beyond me.)

Then again, after working on my Sarga alt in this raid cycle, I've noticed quite the decline in...so to say, "decent" people from a social aspect, so I guess it's not too surprising why some would feel a certain way about this game's endgame. Even 2 of the new people who joined today that joined my alt's FC basically quit after running her first dungeon because people absolutely railed into her for not knowing how to tank properly yet.


Noticed some terrible players leveling PLD from 50-60. Had two Ninjas in Somh Al that barely used dots and at the most random times. When I called them out they were like "hey man chill out it's just a leveling dungeon who cares"

Don't notice that stuff as much when I'm DPSing cause I'm more in the moment but as a tank it's like a front row seat to ****** playing. A lot of people just don't care enough to play well.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2016 7:39pm by BrokenFox
#207 Mar 22 2016 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Also had a Monk ignoring his positionals completely and stood in front of mobs 90% of the time

GG
#208 Mar 22 2016 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Yep sadly. I tend to just go about my business, but it saddens me simply because they're usually the ones wiping people in DF content outside of leveling, because they chose not to learn how to play or decide it was worth while to practice during leveling dungeons. Its why I feel bad for that girl yesterday because she generally seemed to like this game only to be instantly turned off because people were ***** to her in her very first dungeon.

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#209 Mar 22 2016 at 5:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
Yep sadly. I tend to just go about my business, but it saddens me simply because they're usually the ones wiping people in DF content outside of leveling, because they chose not to learn how to play or decide it was worth while to practice during leveling dungeons. Its why I feel bad for that girl yesterday because she generally seemed to like this game only to be instantly turned off because people were ***** to her in her very first dungeon.



Yeah. There are new players and there are sh***y players.
#210 Mar 22 2016 at 8:14 PM Rating: Excellent
They've focused on making the game about being pretty and accessorizing above all else, this is what you get. It's one thing for the game to look nice, but when just about every thread and dev reply revolves around what dresses need to be available...there's a problem.

Just look at the first page of the official forums: Real world clothes, marriage hook up thread, poses while on a mount, show your whatever race, legalize plot selling (not pot). There is...I think maybe 2 threads about actual events one being hunts and the other RNG. No one actually cares about any of the EX or Savage fights. I'm not saying that everyone who's huge into the fashion of the game won't be good at end game, but generally, you're attracting a certain type of player right now. That type of player doesn't really care for rotations, optimization, etc.

You don't have to look any further then Ravana Hard, which is still ridiculous no matter what you explain. Kill the adds, everyone ignores the adds. "OMG WHY'D WE DIE!?" Remember those Gana we mentionned? Kill them. Fight starts again, usually only two of us attacking them, wipe...people rage quit and the process repeats itself until everyone abandons. This is for content that's beyond easy, it requires little to no knowledge to win on your first couple tries. So you can imagine on a NA server, ramping up the difficulty 10 fold and trying to have success as a pug. They had to NERF Steps of Faith because people couldn't use a friggen cannon and time snares properly. The smallest amount of teamwork ever, and people still couldn't figure it out.

Actually, when there is a thread about any savage end game, it degrades into 50 pages of everyone calling a few players elitists. This game has attracted some pretty atrocious players, and I'm not sure why. The problem is, many of them try to defend their "play style", while not wanting to learn anything.
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#211 Mar 22 2016 at 9:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Yep, that's why people say the OF are generally bad unless you want to see what the "general" playerbase is.
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#212 Mar 22 2016 at 11:30 PM Rating: Decent
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BrokenFox wrote:
Simply put people like myself and Thayos enjoy high challenging games but hate all the bulls***/commitment that surrounds hardcore online raiding.

I feel like the more they develop toward casual players who aren't willing to put in what many would call 'standard' time and commitment, these games will turn into online single player experiences. Obviously players aren't looking to meet other players of like skill to team up with.

Calling content 'difficult' is not what makes it difficult. Player 'skill'(read: attention and reaction) determines how difficult things are. Many people spend several days(or much longer) grinding a single boss in 'difficult' content. What exactly would you add that could be completed in a reasonable amount of time when players already surpass that against a single foe?
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#213 Mar 22 2016 at 11:58 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
Simply put people like myself and Thayos enjoy high challenging games but hate all the bulls***/commitment that surrounds hardcore online raiding.

I feel like the more they develop toward casual players who aren't willing to put in what many would call 'standard' time and commitment, these games will turn into online single player experiences. Obviously players aren't looking to meet other players of like skill to team up with.

Calling content 'difficult' is not what makes it difficult. Player 'skill'(read: attention and reaction) determines how difficult things are. Many people spend several days(or much longer) grinding a single boss in 'difficult' content. What exactly would you add that could be completed in a reasonable amount of time when players already surpass that against a single foe?


The scene simply isn't fun anymore, and most of the players are annoying. But I'm not against it, I just won't take part it in.

And I'd add something that wasn't a dance routine that required 7 other people to be exactly in sync. Something that felt like an actual fight that tested player skill/reflex/intelligence and not just memorizing a pattern.

Edited, Mar 23rd 2016 2:11am by BrokenFox
#214 Mar 23 2016 at 12:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Oil and water. I'm talking about oil and water. Smiley: sly
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Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#215 Mar 23 2016 at 12:15 AM Rating: Decent
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What we are witnessing is essentially the beginning death throes of the old MMO Era - where organized content is falling further and further into a minority, holding essentially the same rotating number of people in spite of the popularization of the medium.

It's why these discussions of time commitments and different definitions of what is consitered 'endgame' or 'hand holding' are rising up. Much of the population of people who prioritize MMO as their primary or perhaps only hobby, and have habitually since childhood run in a disconnect from those who either fell out of the habit or were raised in a different time, in which the pace of real life is a very different beast.

Needless to say, dedication is an entirely different beast these days than it was twenty years ago. MMO's popualrities are failing to hold people above the more focused content type games such as MOBAs, where the real dedication and co-ordination habits actually factor competitively. I have personally always considered the idea of 'hardcore' to be a continually dated concept in the recourse of what is predominantly a social game. Put bluntly: MMO's aren't where the hardcore should be pursuing their cravings.

That's not to say that there shouldn't be challenging content. But I do feel as if team coordination should be about refinement and betterment of rewards, not a straight pass/fail system we currently have in the genre. Save the Dark/(Demon/Blood) Souls/(Borne) content to their respective games and stop marketing the content as something that would appeal to that base alone.

I actually would point back to what FFXI is doing at this point with their revitalized content: Difficulty settings. The reward structure for the content itself is the same pool, but the harder mode you do the better chances at the good reward and the more of the base reward you get. The way FFXIV does difficulty modes in contrast however isn't that way. Normal and Extreme, Story and Savage may as well be two entirely different pieces. They have differing loot pools and mechanics and no gradation between minimum and maximum. To me that's a missed opportunity.

Still, I see more melding of the genres in the future, which will keep discussions of game mechanics and what a game 'should' appeal to quite decisive until Developers finally understand that to have a wide appeal, they have to have a wide array of options. So far, FFXI in its twilight years is beating out FFXIV in that department even with the difficulty issues at the Apex.
#216 Mar 23 2016 at 12:20 AM Rating: Good
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Instead of "I'd love to tackle that boss fight!" it's "Nah not in the mood to join a dance recital."

Look at some of these boss guides. That isn't game difficulty that's homework.
#217 Mar 23 2016 at 12:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Look at some of these boss guides. That isn't game difficulty that's homework.


Smiley: nod

And that's why I give so much credit to (certain elements of) FFXI's endgame. Overall, the difficulty was much lower, but battles were undeniably more fun and engaging. Newcomers could participate and were often welcomed even by veteran groups. Having a few new people didn't doom everyone else to failure. And rather than having battles be dance routines, they were ultimately won and lost by people knowing how to play their jobs and using their abilities in harmony.

Also, in FFXI, a person could commit to endgame activities for just one night/week and realistically work toward goals without each play session being a total exercise in frustration.

I find tons of enjoyment in XIV, but the fundamentals of XI's endgame really does beat its pants off.
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#218 Mar 23 2016 at 12:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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FFXI's endgame really only worked because of horizontal progression, which can't realistically be applied to FFXIV's model at this point. Not to the extent we saw it in FFXI anyway. Part of why FFXI's endgame worked is that there was just so much of it, and the lack of set gear tiers meant that you could pick and choose what you did or didn't want to do. You weren't locked out of Limbus because you didn't have dynamis gear.

It's not like FFXI's endgame had so much real challenge. Mostly it was about having enough people and knowing what order to kill stuff in. Most fights had few or no mechanics beyond "stun and/or kite the 2hr." While I agree that some FFXIV bosses are just mechanics overload, at least the fights are more engaging than most FFXI's bosses.
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#219 Mar 23 2016 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
Instead of "I'd love to tackle that boss fight!" it's "Nah not in the mood to join a dance recital."

Look at some of these boss guides. That isn't game difficulty that's homework.


Yeah, and that's only like that because of the HEAVY scripted gameplay design of this game.

Karlina wrote:
It's not like FFXI's endgame had so much real challenge. Mostly it was about having enough people and knowing what order to kill stuff in. Most fights had few or no mechanics beyond "stun and/or kite the 2hr." While I agree that some FFXIV bosses are just mechanics overload, at least the fights are more engaging than most FFXI's bosses.


Actually, it didn't come down to only "just stun or kite" especially in the later years because XI's AI design was far more randomized where you only know for sure if/when an NM or monster will use a certain skill at 50% or so but in between it can be damn near anything. For example Byakko could choose to roar you into submission while spamming Holy/Banishga III in between said roars and claw cyclones. But you know at 75-50% he'll use Perfect Dodge..that's the only guarantee, same with Dynamis Lord you want to stun his chainspell, but that's not the only thing that would allow you to win even if you "threw bodies at it" you were just tossing people to their deaths without some form of coordination..

A lot of Kited fights were one strategy in a multi strategy game. XIV has no strategies. It has ONE way to do everything. Kiting was popular because it let you get risk free damage (and quite frankly, early on in XI 1/2 hand melee was tough to maximize) since you also didn't want to constantly have 6-18 people taking tons of damage, but once you had tanks who were able to take a proper hit, you didn't use a kite strategy unless they have insane attacks.

In comparison of battle systems, XI's "engaging fights" were always in specific content rather than the open world spawns (like say ground kings versus doing Nyzul/Salvage.)

Edited, Mar 23rd 2016 2:17pm by Theonehio
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#220 Mar 23 2016 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Reinstalling FFXI lol
#221 Mar 23 2016 at 4:04 PM Rating: Excellent
Hio, what is the latest on updates for FFXI?
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#222 Mar 23 2016 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Hio, what is the latest on updates for FFXI?


Only thing they've talked about so far for the next update in early April is something that's potentially going to be ilvl Legion and more Mog House extensions (along with a "mount" system and adding Crystals to the currency tab like the Beastmen seals.) Anything else probably won't hear until Friday at the earliest.
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#223 Mar 23 2016 at 7:22 PM Rating: Decent
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PlayOnline music always brings the nostalgia Smiley: blush
#224 Mar 23 2016 at 7:33 PM Rating: Decent
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BrokenFox wrote:
PlayOnline music always brings the nostalgia Smiley: blush


Especially the 2001-2002 launcher music.
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#225 Mar 23 2016 at 7:55 PM Rating: Decent
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ilvl Legion


Ewww. I hope there's more to that event than just Perfect Defense and/or Chainspell Stun rotations, because all I heard about it back in the day was that if you didn't have those things you weren't getting it done
#226 Mar 23 2016 at 8:05 PM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
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ilvl Legion


Ewww. I hope there's more to that event than just Perfect Defense and/or Chainspell Stun rotations, because all I heard about it back in the day was that if you didn't have those things you weren't getting it done


Perfect Defense was used mostly because you didn't know which NMs you were getting in the rotation, so getting full strength Wyrms ontop of a Sandworm was quite a bit hectic. Legion also came after people were too used to being gods in Abyssea so going back to actually having to crowd control and mitigate tons of damage took a lot of people by surprise.
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