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Red Mage in 4.0?Follow

#1 Jun 14 2016 at 1:13 AM Rating: Good
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Apologize if this has already been asked on this forum alone like eleventy billion times already, but...

It's been heavily hinted that Red Mage will be included in the next expansion (which is probably due to be officially announced any day now). I'm personally hoping it will be, as I have to admit that in defiance of popular opinion I am very fond of that FF Job in general.

Many things made the FFXI RDM - the Enfeebling spells, the whole concept, the ease of soloing. On the flip side, though, many broke it, including the addition of several far superior hybrid "Advanced" Jobs, the ultimate pigeonholing into a support role, and the lacking abilities compared to WHM/BLM/WAR.

Now that FFXIV has moved away from base classes, I think they could easily fit RDM as a Rapier-wielding Job, probably as a melee dps Discipline of Magic. Even more interesting would be the storyline, as it could open some exciting new avenues as to how and why they existed, and exploring the "balance" of White and Black Magic in more depth (as CNJs/WHMs and THMs/BLMs seem to always be at odds in the Eorzean universe).

So if RDM does indeed make it in the 4.0 expansion, would you be excited to level it up on your character right away? Or is there some other Job you'd rather see instead? (Blue Mage? Geomancer?)

Edited, Jun 14th 2016 3:15am by JFrombaugh
#2 Jun 14 2016 at 1:45 AM Rating: Good
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Even if there have been some hints I am not sure we will see it. If anything I think SAM has been hinted at more and either way I doubt we will get an announcement about new jobs before fanfests. They have said E3 will be about patch 3.3 and deepest dungeon and I don't think they will surprise us with much aside from maybe confirming the expansion in some way. As for new jobs I think so many want RDM that it would be a good choice if they can manage to make an interesting version of it. I would personally love BLU but again it depends on implementation entirely. Also I really hope they make a more interesting healer this time around, the game really needs it.
#3 Jun 14 2016 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
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4.0? is that gong to be a pay expansion?
Sorry have not played in a while or kept up much...
RDM would be something I would be interested in.. I could give a rats a## about another DD class with a stupid rotation and really is no different than any other DD class..

Maybe with red mage things can change from a rotation to actually reacting to the situation.
I really did Not play much RDM till the end of FFXI for me but I enjoyed it.

I played mainly WHM like in FFXI just like FFXIV.. FFXIV there is too much hate against whm where anything that happens is always the WHM fault. SE tries to make a game harder by adding more dodging but all it does it make it harder for a whm not DD classes. A whm can not heal while dodging So more dodging means less time to heal and if a dd or tank decides he aint going to move it means more healing. So basically anytime they make a battle harder it really is just mainly on the whm since this game is full of the laziest players.

I wonder if they did would it be a new healer class?
This game certainly does not need another DD class..



Edited, Jun 14th 2016 11:33am by Nashred
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#4 Jun 14 2016 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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Belcrono wrote:
As for new jobs I think so many want RDM that it would be a good choice if they can manage to make an interesting version of it.


I feel that while the whole concept of the Red Mage is just fantastic, it could have been executed with so much more elegance, with so much more chique, in XIV than it actually has been in XI.

The thing is, the "jack-of'all-trades" ability of XI RDM wasn't as good as we're led to believe. In many cases in a group you'd be relegated to a support role regardless of your sub-job, you could help out with DPS or Healing depending on whether you Subbed WHM or BLM, but it really isn't as all-rounded and able to fill multiple roles as perhaps it should've been.

Instead, for XIV's RDM, I would personally like to see something similar to Enhance Shammy from WoW or Harbinger from Rift. He could have some passive skill that allows his melee attacks to benefit from Intelligence while also setting up combos that involve casting short-range spells similar to NIN's Ninjutsu. He could also learn the En- and Spikes lines of spells for some added buffs and effects.

The melee aspect of XI's RDM troubled me. To me, it seems to be sword skills for the sake of sword skills. I've read through some of the Job guides written in the early days of FFXI and it seems like it was only recently that they actually buffed RDM's sword skill rating/damage to actually make it viable as an alternative to casting Black Magic.

Belcrono wrote:
Also I really hope they make a more interesting healer this time around, the game really needs it.


Personally I would like to see Geomancer be the new Healer (maybe some kind of Far Eastern Astrologian that uses a new mechanic?). GEO uses a Bell as its weapon so there'd be no problem with the Armory system.
#5 Jun 14 2016 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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Though, XIV is a "rotation" based MMO, which would further niche RDM to a certain role, since if it's a healer, it HAS to play like WHM/SCH/AST with it's own unique version of x heal, as per the XIV design. If it's a caster, it HAS to play like BLM or SMN. If it's a melee, it HAS to play like MNK, NIN or DRG. If it's a sword user it HAS to play like Gladiator and so on. So unless they completely change the gameplay, RDM that we know of it in FF/FFXI isn't possible sadly.

It'd be interesting to see what they do, but after seeing Dark Knight, I don't know...as much as I love DRK, just..could have been so better if it at least had "Dark Magic" or something. So many times I wish I could self-heal like a PLD or WAR...but I have nothing. Abyssal Drain? Enjoy sucking away all of that MP for minimal heal, especially on single target lol. Bloodbath? Doesn't outweight the damage going out.

As for XI RDM, it was a pretty good jack of all trades, the issue is, much like NInja, the community had its own idea for it. RDM melee was fine but like even THF, it wasn't suited for high def/eva mobs in the early days. it was an amazing crowd control, since a lot of people compare it to the "RDM of the offline titles" when even BLM could use daggers in older FF games, but you never really see them complain about wanting to melee more..which the one time they did, SE gave them access to Scythes and it didn't change much.

So honestly, as much as I love RDM, I think this game need to significantly change at 4.0, maybe they're using deep dungeon to test some concepts.
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#6 Jun 14 2016 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, Samurai is pretty much a given since we already have the class trainer telling you she will be back to teach you.

Beastmasters have been around a while too in XIV as an enemy class, and even more so in the latest dungeon. That would be on the list too.

I dont see any of the "hints" towards RDM though? Maybe that's just wishful thinking. Cant think of any npc, job or quest that has that. Nor do i really see a way to implement it since we are bound to "DPS", "Tank" and "Healer" roles.
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#7 Jun 14 2016 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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In a shocking event, I actually agree with Hio. I just don't see SE being able to implement RDM into the game in it's current form. Not in the manner that people want anyway.

Red Mage, historically, is a hybrid job. It's THE hybrid job in most FF games. Problem is that roles in FFXIV are highly specialized. The game doesn't have a place for a hybrid. They could make RDM a melee DPS with some weaponskills that look like magic, or a healer, or even a tank, but is that really what people want when they say they want to play a Red Mage?
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#8 Jun 14 2016 at 3:35 PM Rating: Excellent
For RDM to work as a hybrid, it would have to be an all-new class type that took the place of a DPS role in party setups. I do think this could work, though. Perhaps the fourth spot in four-man dungeons could be filled with either a hybrid or DPS, based on what's in the DF.

I think it's totally doable, but yeah, would have to be done with a new expansion when the level cap goes up and effectively resets the content.
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#9 Jun 14 2016 at 8:27 PM Rating: Good
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You won't find me disagreeing that SE dropped the ball with RDM in XI. Unfortunately, when you evoke the "Jack of all trades" axiom when it comes to MMOs, "suck at them all" is the unspoken suffix since you'll inevitably have "specialists" get antsy that someone dares compete while having other tricks up their sleeve. Of course, what SE did with XI isn't entirely pertinent here, presuming they don't just seek to recreate their mistakes.

When I envision RDM for XIV, however, I inevitably see it as a DPS/Support hybrid. At the basic level, you'd have a sword combo that gains steps as you level. Something like Fast Blade > Death Blossom > Chant du Cygne could be throwbacks in name and graphic. FB could just be basic damage, DB does damage and increases the amount of damage a mob would take from magical attacks, then CdC could increase damage from physical sources for a time. They could also add some other abilities to branch off FB for HP/MP recovery.

Loosely covering the martial side, we then look at the magical. The trick here is to not fall into XI's trap where the melee is never, ever used. Further, the job honestly can't hope to replace a WHM or SCH for the healing slot. And as is, XIV has handled the elements in a funky way, so you can't really be all "give them a tier less than the specialist" too. Single-target buffs are also something I'd call a gameplay no-no, which means if we want some form of Haste and Refresh, it has to come in an AoE form. But overall, I'm not against a basic cure. A unique nuke type that tiers up would be a basic magic damage solution. A DoT or two also wouldn't be unheard of.

Lastly, I guess that leaves the Enspell concept. This is where they could technically do funky things with (de)buffs based on what your party needs. They'd be applied to both auto attacks and melee abilities, possibly stackable. If they go that route, they could also gain an ability to consume stacks for an additional effect and/or damage.

A rough wish list, sure, but I think those hoping for old school RDM/NIN or the Pink Mage are looking in the wrong place when it comes to humoring the job concept.
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#10 Jun 15 2016 at 5:00 AM Rating: Good
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Out of curiosity Seriha could you elaborate a little about the "suck at them all" part? I never felt like that was the case in XI (Not sure how it is past 75). I mean it just feels like it depends on how you define roles.

In FFXIV I feel it is pretty clearly DD, Healer, Tank whereas in XI I never felt that to the same extent. To me it always felt a lot more fluid/flexible because some jobs could fit several of those roles at the same time. Now if you said RDM sucked at being a DPS then I would agree of course, but I mean they could tank, heal/support, kite solo NM, melee solo NM/farm. To me that means they could heal really well but not in all situations, they could melee but not in all situations etc. Now some people might have wanted RDM melee to be more prominent and I can understand that, but it does not mean I necessarily think they should therefore be able to melee in every situation or have to do it to be played optimally always.

In XIV it would have to fit one of the roles DD, Healer; Tank a lot more rigidly and be balanced with the other jobs in that category, but I think RDM was really well done in XI and fit perfectly into the type of game that XI was where you didn't need to fit a defined role in the same sense as XIV. Like I said though of course they could have made melee a bit stronger or a bigger part of RDM playstyle, but I was very happy with how it was and would not have wanted it for myself, but rather because some others wanted it so badly.
#11 Jun 15 2016 at 6:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I'm not sure how 'jack of all trades' translates to sucks at them all when RDM is one of the most powerful jobs in XI to the point they literally needed no updates, which I know upset some RDMs during XI's run when everyone else was getting updates but for the longest period of time a good RDM was the only job that could properly debuff and crowd control certain content. SCH and GEO eventually came into the scene but RDM to this day is still the only job that could solo the Sky gods back in the prime of 75 cap era...if that's "sucking" then yeah, RDM truly needed nothing lol.

I mean, it sucks RDM weren't melee gods ontop of being amazing casters but you had Black Mage and Blue Mage to fit those roles in 75 cap era then later tossed in Geomancer which has melee on par of RDM and WHM (since it uses clubs and has access to basically every club WS.)

So unless XIV adds in the ability to be a hybrid job and not locked down to a "rotation" RDM, GEO, BLU, DNC and so on I wouldn't want them to add because these jobs above all were more of a "fit the situation" rather than queue up for DF as x role. I mean, look at the Warrior and Ninja situation - if you have both present, let alone in an alliance with a couple of them, they have debuffs that override each other.

Why? Why couldn't War have it's debuff, then NIN have a separate different that worked together, rather than WAR/DRK/NIN/MNK having essentially the same debuff skill thus actually making part of your toolset worthless in a raid situation? I'd love to see what they can come up with, but I'd want the game to actually change before they even think of complex jobs being added. Every other MMO has "Tank/DPS/Heal/Support" slots and some have "Tank/DPS/Heal/Support (or Hybrid or "free")" slots.

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#12 Jun 15 2016 at 8:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

So if RDM does indeed make it in the 4.0 expansion, would you be excited to level it up on your character right away?


Depends. I doubt they'd let red mage to (properly) be both healer and caster at once, which is the job's appeal to me.

Quote:
Or is there some other Job you'd rather see instead? (Blue Mage? Geomancer?)


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#13 Jun 15 2016 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
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Holhorse wrote:
Quote:

So if RDM does indeed make it in the 4.0 expansion, would you be excited to level it up on your character right away?


Depends. I doubt they'd let red mage to (properly) be both healer and caster at once, which is the job's appeal to me.

Quote:
Or is there some other Job you'd rather see instead? (Blue Mage? Geomancer?)


Summoner. A proper summoner.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but currently SMN is a lot like RDM from FFXI. I mean they enfeeble and assist healing. They just use a pet instead of a sword. I'd love to have a RDM here, but it would need to bring something new to the party.
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#14 Jun 15 2016 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
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SMN in XIV is more like a Warlock from WoW than anything. So while it can assist heal (realistically main heal in early dungeons) but due to the INT base the only heal it has access to is pretty terrible. it'd be like asking a BLM to main heal with Physick.

If SMN mimicked XI's SMN Garuda egi for example would also be able to assist in healing and party support.
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#15 Jun 15 2016 at 10:28 AM Rating: Excellent
I'd totally play as a melee-heavy rdm with white/black enspells and little-to-no healing.
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#16 Jun 15 2016 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
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Belcrono wrote:
Out of curiosity Seriha could you elaborate a little about the "suck at them all" part? I never felt like that was the case in XI (Not sure how it is past 75). I mean it just feels like it depends on how you define roles.

Suck is a strong word but the idea isn't wrong. Yeah, RDMs weren't bad at anything, but in MMO terms "not bad" may was well be worthless when you could have "great" instead. RDMs were really great at a few specific things and decent at everything else. Decent is fine when you're solo but meaningless in a party setting when people want efficiency.

But RDMs can heal, nuke, melee, tank, etc, all with just a quick gear swap! Yeah, but did anyone actually let you do any of those things? I spent a lot of years as a 75 RDM and my memories mostly involve main heal or GTFO. In a party I was there for cure, haste, refresh, sleep, and occasionally chainspell>stun. The only time I got to do other stuff was solo or messing around in small groups.
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#17 Jun 15 2016 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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It really depended on the group you rolled with. We actually used a RDM tank a few times even before the Sleep II enmity glitch because their stubborness of dying rivals DNC and quite frankly, our PLD was just being lazy those raiding days so since DNC wasn't really up to par for tanking yet, we went with the next best thing, since they too could also kite.

So the "general community" didn't let a RDM do all it could, but in terms of design it could do a **** of a lot which is why it went untouched for years while every other job got adjustments. Aside SE removing Cure V, Regen II and Marksmanship/Gun access to RDM in the early days, they honestly had RDM "perfect" for what it was. It was SMN that was never in a good spot in the early days.

Them slapping in the magic resistance patch though, that's when RDM actually started to suffer, but also exceed because only they were able to properly debuff certain NMs for quite some time.
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#18 Jun 15 2016 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd like to see RDM, SAM, and RUN in 4.0 and the way I want them to unlock is:

(Healer) Red Mage= must have a lvl 60 WHM and BLM
(Melee DPS, because they did ranged dps in HW) Samurai= must have a lvl 60 WAR and NIN
(Tank) Runefencer= must have a lvl 60 PLD and...ummm.....BLM again? SMN?
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#19 Jun 15 2016 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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I'm still waiting for beast and/or puppetmaster. Give me a physical pet job already!
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#20 Jun 15 2016 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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Karlina wrote:
I'm still waiting for beast and/or puppetmaster. Give me a physical pet job already!


The game definitely needs this. I think they'd go with a PUP since they're melee if I'm not mistaken, and I doubt they'd want to introduce a ranged dps 2 xpacs in a row.

Edited, Jun 15th 2016 2:04pm by garethrogue
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#21 Jun 15 2016 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
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AngusX wrote:
Holhorse wrote:
Quote:

So if RDM does indeed make it in the 4.0 expansion, would you be excited to level it up on your character right away?


Depends. I doubt they'd let red mage to (properly) be both healer and caster at once, which is the job's appeal to me.

Quote:
Or is there some other Job you'd rather see instead? (Blue Mage? Geomancer?)


Summoner. A proper summoner.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but currently SMN is a lot like RDM from FFXI. I mean they enfeeble and assist healing. They just use a pet instead of a sword. I'd love to have a RDM here, but it would need to bring something new to the party.


I wasn't a XI player so I don't know, but to me the ideal would be SMN getting streamlined (replacing support options with DPS options through their pets) and RDM maybe taking that role if people want, so both sides can be more like their classic versions.

These times I think Yoshida should be less stubborn and just add specs, skill trees, etc. Right now we have 2 casters and 3 melee, if RDM ends as melee we'll have an imbalance, if they're casters then I know a lot of people will be disappointed. So just let us choose.
#22 Jun 15 2016 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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I wasn't a XI player so I don't know, but to me the ideal would be SMN getting streamlined (replacing support options with DPS options through their pets) and RDM maybe taking that role if people want, so both sides can be more like their classic versions.


But classic summoners ARE hybrid support/dps. It's hard to express that in XIV which doesn't recognize a support role, but it's pretty apparent when you look at past Final Fantasy games that while summoners have their heavy dps abilities, most of what they do is support oriented.

FFV's summoner was arguably more useful putting up Golem shields than it was summoning Bahamut. FF6, 7 and 8's summons ran the gamut from healing to utility to damage. FF9's two summoners both had powerful white magic backing them up which they tended to use a lot more frequently than their summons. FF10's summoner WAS a white mage... she was your only one unless you did some wacky sphere grid shenanigans. FF11's SMN had a mix of support and dps abilities on their summons.

It's rare that a summoner has been a pure dps. I can only really think of one and it's Rydia, and even then it's only Rydia when she returns to your party later in the game. When you get her she's some kind of weirdo omni-mage that can do everything albeit not very well.
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#23 Jun 15 2016 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
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Karlina wrote:
Belcrono wrote:
Out of curiosity Seriha could you elaborate a little about the "suck at them all" part? I never felt like that was the case in XI (Not sure how it is past 75). I mean it just feels like it depends on how you define roles.

Suck is a strong word but the idea isn't wrong. Yeah, RDMs weren't bad at anything, but in MMO terms "not bad" may was well be worthless when you could have "great" instead. RDMs were really great at a few specific things and decent at everything else. Decent is fine when you're solo but meaningless in a party setting when people want efficiency.

But RDMs can heal, nuke, melee, tank, etc, all with just a quick gear swap! Yeah, but did anyone actually let you do any of those things? I spent a lot of years as a 75 RDM and my memories mostly involve main heal or GTFO. In a party I was there for cure, haste, refresh, sleep, and occasionally chainspell>stun. The only time I got to do other stuff was solo or messing around in small groups.

Slow to get back for the reply, but Karlina basically covered it. The MMO meta doesn't really want 2nd or 3rd string anything when the 1st rate options are available. This point is further emphasized when a given piece of content limits your party size for whatever reason. How things fall in the pecking order is something you'd further have to math down. 5% difference? Probably not so bad. 30% difference or more? Yeah, get out.

Something I frequently encountered back in the day while clamoring for buffs to melee game were people who felt the class would become both OP and that no on would ever play anything else. Now, buffs is a broad term, and I'd even broken down the weaknesses of RDM's melee game into multiple points at that time. Things like gear availability (including inventory restrictions), WS access, food options, TP feed, unique benefits, and then some were all facets I tried to approach the argument from. Some counters simply came from embittered WHMs angry about RDMs stealing their role as healer. Some came from RDMs themselves who didn't want to have to get new gear or (re)learn the job to play it to a new standard. Others were just plain stuck in that zone of irrationality where just because they couldn't see it working, no one else must be able to. Oh, and because some people poopsocked some HNMs, we weren't allowed nice things, either.

In the end, XI's RDM was in somewhat of an awkward place, in part due to gear swapping being a thing. My ultimate take is that if you wanted to melee, subbing WAR or NIN should've been enough with the right gear. Want to heal? /WHM and /SCH. Nuke? /BLM and /SCH, or heck, maybe even /DRK for Stun. But the reality of XI's RDM is that it wound up more mage-heavy as time progressed while playing healer was a low-gear demand side. After all, the expectation was that all you had to do was ride Refresh and Convert, nevermind the other aspect of the equation that involved your party both mitigating damage well and killing mobs in a timely manner. If they failed at that, even the best RDM would eventually run dry. RDM was perhaps "the job" everyone knew how to play, but few wanted to. Why? Well, arguably because a lot of other jobs were more fun and less stress. SE eventually building "better" RDMs through BLU, DNC, and SCH is just a proverbial twist of the dagger.
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#24 Jun 16 2016 at 5:25 AM Rating: Good
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Personally I see RDM as a jack of all trades in the sense that I can do a lot of different things depending on the situation and the surroundings. Not everything always. If I am solo I am a beast in every single way, if I am in a larger group I get more of a supportive role or tank (both of which they crushed atm although tanking was nerfed), if I am in a smaller group I get more flexibility in what I do. I was a RDM, BLU and SCH for several years and honestly all I can say is that RDM had everything and I was allowed to use most of it unless I wanted to melee at things like HNM etc.

If all you measure RDM flexibility in is its ability to melee and in how many events it could do it effectively sure then it was not up to snuff so to speak, but honestly to me that is just pigeonholing RDM into something it never was, just something you wanted it to be as well as claiming XI was a very restricted type of game which it never was either. Like I said, I am not saying it was perfect, but I do think they did a great job of making a jack of all trades that fit into the game at basically every level in different ways, just not in every way or a specific way in every situation.
#25 Jun 16 2016 at 6:21 AM Rating: Good
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I think we will know reasonably soon what jobs be included in 4.0. Based on where the 3.* is right now, I will guess there may be 2 more major updates (up to 3.5) for 3.*. There are probably 1 more addition to Alexander and Sky Pirate raid, and Nidhogg arc is kind of closed now so the story will move toward Warrior of Darkness. My guess is 4.0 be released sometime in the 1st or 2nd quarter of 2017, so info about 4.0 new jobs (and the possibility of red mage) be revealed sometime late summer or in autumn - likely by the North America and Japan fanfest.

Anyway it is always fun to guess. I do think by FFXIV mechanics, it is not easy to introduce hybrid jobs (as other posters have indicated). Rather than "red mage" as a hybrid caster, it is probably better to introduce red mage as a magic sword enchanter class, and it probably make story consistent sense considering what we know about the dual at the end of 2.*. I actually prefered that our lovely lalafell queen to stay dead from our Ala Mingo magic sword user as I think it will giving better options in plot twists in 3.0; instead we get a Deux Ex Machina from Lolorita intervention. Plot wise, I actually think it is harder to introduce Samurai as I don't think foreshadowing is clear (the foreshadowing for Machinst and Astrologer were quite clear even some players may have overlooked them). If anything, watch out what happen in that side plot with our Lalafell - Mithra duo with the masked guy. It may tell us what the new jobs be.

Edited, Jun 16th 2016 8:23am by scchan

Edited, Jun 16th 2016 8:24am by scchan
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#26 Jun 16 2016 at 6:34 AM Rating: Good
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Fanfests are like Oct for NA and Dec for JP unless I am mistaking so will probably have to wait until December before we know.
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