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#52 Aug 01 2016 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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This is not what I thought this thread would turn into.
Anyway.
For me FFXIV the world does not feel real and in a mmo it does need to feel real.
Pretty impossible to get killed, nothing really goes on, everything is on a rubber band. Having everything in the game instance just does not feel right. Lots of people play the game but they all seem bored of the instances.

There is so much content pouring out but it is always the same. When cool content is added like housing it is pretty much useless and seems like that may never change. Subdivisions are completely dead.

The game does allot right. It is easy to pick up. It has a very easy to use control and interface. SE stories and cut-scenes are great. Mission are pretty straight forward and easy to follow. Crafting is actually fun and this is the first MMO where I could say that.

I had so much fun with this game 0-50. Then WP AK runs hit and that stunk. I was getting on every night just to do this. Then the game did not change since then and is exactly the same. Think about it not much has changed. I get on to run the last 3 dungeons over and over it has not changed since endgame started. I liked coil and thought hey this is what the game needs till we hit turn 5.

I like the raids but it is only a distraction really, it gear is not the best but is nice filler gear but again it is over and over. This game does not lack content it lack original content.

When I left FFXI for this game I did not want it to be FFXI exactly. I wanted a game that took up less time. I hated WOW so I did not want this game to be that. Anyway the game felt really cool for a while.

You know I love spending time to get something too.. I like having hard to get items like the original relic was even thought that was stupid and was not much better than other gear, then they take it away.. If I am going to spend time grinding I want something that is worth grinding for and I do not wan it outdated in a patch or two. I think that is the biggest short coming in this, nothing in this game is worth grinding or working for. I mean there are allot of people that just come back for patches and why is that? Tesee and I pretty much have become that with FFXIV. We come back to keep up so if we ever comeback we are not to far behind. That is what our problem is there is not much to fill in the time inbetween, they hand you gear pretty much. That is the problem for Me and Tesee the meat is not there. What do we do for those weeks inbetween patches and there is nothing to do but run the same dungeons over and over for worthless gear. You need a reason to play the game other than just story, if you want story just play a RPG and not a MMO.

You know last night we were listing things we wanted to do in FFXI and FFXIV.
FFXIV
Open last dungeon and open deep dungeon.
(We are not even looking forward to running them)
Finish melding crafting set (Melding stinks too when you get 30 breaks and again not looking forward to it)

FFXI
I want my Lu Shang's rod.
(There is nothing like this in FFXIV and there should be. This would give people something to do in between patches)
We want to finish the fishing quest up.
I need to finish sky the last fight.
The last fight in Rhapsodies
Finish seekers of Adoulin.
Finish AF gear and relic gear. (Again this what they need to fill in the time. All gear set in FFXI are still up gradable to be useful in this game)
Continue monster raising.
Do the quest for new mounts.
Collect more Trust
The list goes on.



For us we probably be best to play both games because we have the time but it cost to much with mules and retainers.






Edited, Aug 1st 2016 11:18am by Nashred
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#53 Aug 01 2016 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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I added allot to the above. I didn't want to start a new post.
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#54 Aug 01 2016 at 9:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I have to wonder why you're still playing FFXIV at all, Nash... it will never be the game you want it to be. It's ok to not play a game you don't enjoy.

I'm not going to go through and address all of that up there, but suffice it to say that FFXIV doesn't seem to be the kind of game you want to play.. so why are you playing it?

I don't want this to sound like "if you don't like it, leave" because it's not that. But you've spent like 3 years now playing this game and not enjoying the vast majority of it... at some point it has to be ok to just accept that it'll never be what you're looking for and move on.
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#55 Aug 01 2016 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
I have to wonder why you're still playing FFXIV at all, Nash... it will never be the game you want it to be. It's ok to not play a game you don't enjoy.

I'm not going to go through and address all of that up there, but suffice it to say that FFXIV doesn't seem to be the kind of game you want to play.. so why are you playing it?

I don't want this to sound like "if you don't like it, leave" because it's not that. But you've spent like 3 years now playing this game and not enjoying the vast majority of it... at some point it has to be ok to just accept that it'll never be what you're looking for and move on.


I do not know why sometimes too..

I actually enjoy allot of the game and It really is the only thing out there. I listed above allot I like. I like the main story allot and for a while loved crafting but again crafting is kind of useless with all the cheap pretty much free gear out there.

I just want something new in the game to do. I like the dungeons and the raids even though they could have a little more variety, What I do not like is having to run them over and over for no rewards.

I also am hoping maybe it will change eventually.
FFXI is not enough to fill the void to much either anymore and honestly it has become more like FFXIV than people want to admit but it still has something we want to do.

I think FFXIV may change eventually, I think it has too.. Problem with a game were people comeback for patches is they eventually stop. If FFXIV is a long term game eventually they will have to add some engaging content or people will quit.

Maybe you are right and the game is not for us. We came close to stopping our subscription a little while ago.

I think for us is we will eventually play both. We will use FFXI as fill in for what FFXIV is missing,.
We will unsubscribe from FFXIV in between patches except Tesee main character too keep her house.

I just do not get how you love a game from 0-50 and end game is so boring.


Thayos wrote:
I consider end game to be progression oriented content that requires a measure of work and cooperation. I don't consider quick grind dungeons or face roll raids to be endgame.


agreed.







Edited, Aug 1st 2016 11:47am by Nashred

Edited, Aug 1st 2016 11:50am by Nashred
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#56 Aug 01 2016 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I just do not get how you love a game from 0-50 and end game is so boring.


Actually that's exactly what happened with SWTOR for me.

I loved the class stories, they were superb. Then the endgame was just kinda ... meh. So I subscribed to that game for about 2 months leveling characters up and enjoying the **** out of the stories and then I was done.

Quote:
I think FFXIV may change eventually, I think it has too..


While the structure of the content may one day change, the nature of it won't. There will always be something to grind for an eventual reward. That's just how MMOs and other long-term games work. MMOs function on repetition... a lot of repetition. It's the nature of the beast and it has been for 20 years.
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#57 Aug 01 2016 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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Belcrono wrote:
It is funny how these threads always turn into the exact same discussion every single time. Pretty sure we all "know" each others opinions well enough that we could write each others posts instead of our own at this point lol.

Ha ha, seriously. That's part of why I've stayed out of this one. There's nothing I could say here that I haven't already said a hundred times in other threads.
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#58 Aug 01 2016 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
I have to wonder why you're still playing FFXIV at all, Nash... it will never be the game you want it to be. It's ok to not play a game you don't enjoy.

I'm not going to go through and address all of that up there, but suffice it to say that FFXIV doesn't seem to be the kind of game you want to play.. so why are you playing it?

I don't want this to sound like "if you don't like it, leave" because it's not that. But you've spent like 3 years now playing this game and not enjoying the vast majority of it... at some point it has to be ok to just accept that it'll never be what you're looking for and move on.

It's kind of like being a fan of a hardcore movie or band. If you have come to expect Heavy metal from Metallica for 12 years and they play Pop on one album, you hope they go back to the previous.

Nashred wrote:

I do not know why sometimes too..

I actually enjoy allot of the game and It really is the only thing out there. I listed above allot I like. I like the main story allot and for a while loved crafting but again crafting is kind of useless with all the cheap pretty much free gear out there.

I just want something new in the game to do. I like the dungeons and the raids even though they could have a little more variety, What I do not like is having to run them over and over for no rewards.

I also am hoping maybe it will change eventually.
FFXI is not enough to fill the void to much either anymore and honestly it has become more like FFXIV than people want to admit but it still has something we want to do.

I think FFXIV may change eventually, I think it has too.. Problem with a game were people comeback for patches is they eventually stop. If FFXIV is a long term game eventually they will have to add some engaging content or people will quit.

Maybe you are right and the game is not for us. We came close to stopping our subscription a little while ago.

I think for us is we will eventually play both. We will use FFXI as fill in for what FFXIV is missing,.
We will unsubscribe from FFXIV in between patches except Tesee main character too keep her house.

I just do not get how you love a game from 0-50 and end game is so boring.

People always come back unless they hate a game completely or don't care for it at all. Even I can come back so often and I think the combat and ilevel system is the most horrid things in the industry. I absolutely detest that no concept of a skill chain system, gw2 combo system, ESO synergy system, LOTR fellowship maneuver system has made it's way into the game.

Thayos wrote:
I consider end game to be progression oriented content that requires a measure of work and cooperation. I don't consider quick grind dungeons or face roll raids to be endgame.


I consider endgame to be progression to keep the game from ending, perpetual long term progression. A game that uses dailies and short life gear cycles to keep me there fails. When I think of longterm, I think of 9 month-1.5 year gear cycles, ESO champion like systems, merit point systems, adventure zones like FFXI Abyssea or ESO Craglorn, Open World Dungeons like Sky and Sea, areas with short term goals and long term goals. The key is flexible grouping and persistent goals.


#59 Aug 01 2016 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I just do not get how you love a game from 0-50 and end game is so boring.


Guild Wars 2 for me.
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#60 Aug 01 2016 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
I just do not get how you love a game from 0-50 and end game is so boring.


Actually that's exactly what happened with SWTOR for me.

I loved the class stories, they were superb. Then the endgame was just kinda ... meh. So I subscribed to that game for about 2 months leveling characters up and enjoying the **** out of the stories and then I was done.

Quote:
I think FFXIV may change eventually, I think it has too..


While the structure of the content may one day change, the nature of it won't. There will always be something to grind for an eventual reward. That's just how MMOs and other long-term games work. MMOs function on repetition... a lot of repetition. It's the nature of the beast and it has been for 20 years.


I do not mind grind, I played FFXI for a long time and Tesee longer than me so I understand grind. I just want a reward for the grind that is not outdated in a month.
I appreciate your input too, everyone has been pretty civil.

I just am having a hard time deciding what to do.. If we did not need another computer for FFXI it would not be a issue or if the game was less to play then again if we were completely happy with FFXIV it would not be a issue. Playing ESO you do realise how much good is in FFXIV.
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#61 Aug 01 2016 at 10:37 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I do not mind grind, I played FFXI for a long time and Tesee longer than me so I understand grind. I just want a reward for the grind that is not outdated in a month.


This will always be FFXIV. However, to be fair, rewards you get in XIV are valid for much longer than one month, especially if you're not doing savage-level raids or the newest extreme primals. One set of gear can last for six months or more, depending on what you're actually doing in the game.

That doesn't solve the problem though of casual/midcore players not having real endgame content to participate in.
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#62 Aug 01 2016 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
I just do not get how you love a game from 0-50 and end game is so boring.


Actually that's exactly what happened with SWTOR for me.

I loved the class stories, they were superb. Then the endgame was just kinda ... meh. So I subscribed to that game for about 2 months leveling characters up and enjoying the **** out of the stories and then I was done.


While the structure of the content may one day change, the nature of it won't. There will always be something to grind for an eventual reward. That's just how MMOs and other long-term games work. MMOs function on repetition... a lot of repetition. It's the nature of the beast and it has been for 20 years.

Swtor. In my opinion, the best class stories of all time if you like on rail story, 50 hours worth per character on 8 classes. ESO feels way more realistic on one initial character with open quest, better quest, but less variety per playthrough.

I agree on repetition and the nature. Something has to be there to keep people subscribed. And I have yet to see any mmo create enough reasons to stay subscribed due to content unless the content is heavily gated or pinned down in exuberant amounts of slow progress.
#63 Aug 01 2016 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
I do not mind grind, I played FFXI for a long time and Tesee longer than me so I understand grind. I just want a reward for the grind that is not outdated in a month.


This will always be FFXIV. However, to be fair, rewards you get in XIV are valid for much longer than one month, especially if you're not doing savage-level raids or the newest extreme primals. One set of gear can last for six months or more, depending on what you're actually doing in the game.

That doesn't solve the problem though of casual/midcore players not having real endgame content to participate in.


While equipment is valid that long I do agree with that, It is not what I meant.
Gear pretty much every month is replaced by better gear and not just one piece all of it.
Why grind if by the time you get it it no longer is the best gear.
Problem with the highest level content is by the time you beat it there is gear that someone running the same easy dungeon 30 times gets ahead of you.
I remember coil and focusing on that. People that do that should have the highest gear and for a very long time. If you can do that content fast enough it might be the highest for about 2 months.
So what happens in this game? Allot just runs duty roulette and it has been that way since 50 for gear or they run raids for fill in gear.

I am talking gear like the torques in FFXI which are still good, Blackbelt..
Relics and AF gears.

Edited, Aug 1st 2016 1:07pm by Nashred
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#64 Aug 01 2016 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Swtor. In my opinion, the best class stories of all time if you like on rail story, 50 hours worth per character on 8 classes. ESO feels way more realistic on one initial character with open quest, better quest, but less variety per playthrough.


I've tried a couple of times with ESO and I can see what you're saying with the story being cool (it really is) but I hate the gameplay so... yeah...

Quote:
While equipment is valid that long I do agree with that, It is not what I meant.
Gear pretty much every month is replaced by better gear and not just one piece all of it.
Why grind if by the time you get it it no longer is the best gear.


There can be a valid complaint here without the hyperbole. High end gear stays that way for 6-8 months depending on content release scheduling. Even when it's "obsolete" though, it's still every bit as good as it was, there's just something better available. What do you think people farm for the best gear with? They farm with the gear that used to be the best and is now "obsolete." Can't be THAT bad if it still kills bosses.

Quote:
I am talking gear like the torques in FFXI which are still good, Blackbelt..
Relics and AF gears.


Vertical games don't work like that. The idea is that you're always moving forward, not farming content from 10 years ago because it's still somehow your best in slot. Horizontal progression is valid when that's the game... but that isn't FFXIV.
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#65 Aug 01 2016 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Vertical games don't work like that. The idea is that you're always moving forward, not farming content from 10 years ago because it's still somehow your best in slot. Horizontal progression is valid when that's the game... but that isn't FFXIV.


But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.
I would rather work my but off or do the hardest content for gear that is the best for a long time..
That will probably never change in this game either.


Edited, Aug 1st 2016 1:19pm by Nashred
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#66 Aug 01 2016 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.
I would rather work my but off or do the hardest content for gear that is the best for a long time..
That will probably never change in this game either.


Which brings me back to things about this game that aren't ever going to be what you're looking for.
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#67 Aug 01 2016 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.


Boom, there is your answer.

FFXIV is a vertical-progression game. This is NEVER going to change.

The development team is definitely experimenting with new types of content to diversify the grind, and I expect we'll see more systems added with the 4.0 expansion, but the vertical nature of this game will never change.

And thus, your feelings will never change.

You will never like this game unless you learn to appreciate the benefits of vertical progression.
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#68 Aug 01 2016 at 11:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.


Boom, there is your answer.

FFXIV is a vertical-progression game. This is NEVER going to change.

The development team is definitely experimenting with new types of content to diversify the grind, and I expect we'll see more systems added with the 4.0 expansion, but the vertical nature of this game will never change.

And thus, your feelings will never change.

You will never like this game unless you learn to appreciate the benefits of vertical progression.


That's what drove me away from the game eventually--I hung on for as long as I could, hoping to make peace with it. And having wonderful friends from XI that moved over to form a FC helped a lot, because at least it was fun to talk to them. But when they started leaving and I started looking at how my gear would be replaced every few months I just couldn't take it, I despise that system. That and the combat change was by far the hardest things to accept coming from 1.23 for me, and it's probably why, to use the analogy someone did a bit ago, I kept hoping they'd get away from "pop" and go back to the heavy metal I signed up for originally. Eventually I simply realized the game was not for me, not in the way that XI or 1.23 were.
#69 Aug 01 2016 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
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And of course after my previous post I'm going to chime in with my normal shtick anyway. I should really know better by now...


Horizontal progression only worked in FFXI because of gear swapping. Having ten different ways to get twenty different belts worked because you could actually use all of those belts at the same time and it was worth it to collect them all. In any other game you'd pick the best one and that would be it.

There's also the boredom and burnout aspect. I have crazy nostalgia for FFXI just like everyone else but I can be objective enough to admit that it was often really boring. Sky, dynamis, etc, were all valid endgame for YEARS. Even as more events were added over time people still ran dynamis and killed Byakko. At some point it's OK to let old content die in favor of the new.
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#70 Aug 01 2016 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
I just do not get how you love a game from 0-50 and end game is so boring.


Actually that's exactly what happened with SWTOR for me.

I loved the class stories, they were superb. Then the endgame was just kinda ... meh. So I subscribed to that game for about 2 months leveling characters up and enjoying the **** out of the stories and then I was done.


That's what happened to most people and it's why the game crashed as hard as it did.

I'm still salty about how it all turned out for SWTOR. Probably the game I looked forward to the most, ever.
#71 Aug 01 2016 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.


Boom, there is your answer.

FFXIV is a vertical-progression game. This is NEVER going to change.

The development team is definitely experimenting with new types of content to diversify the grind, and I expect we'll see more systems added with the 4.0 expansion, but the vertical nature of this game will never change.

And thus, your feelings will never change.

You will never like this game unless you learn to appreciate the benefits of vertical progression.

Which is?

Vertical Progression Pros/Con
Constant new gear grinds to stay meta.
Gear tiers being surpassed and recycled every few months.
No True Cross Classing only trees.
Content becoming obsolete unless higher rewards are given in lower content
Content becoming obsolete unless content is scaled
Never far behind meta as long as you play every now and then
Interesting stats can be on gear depending on how strict party play is

Horizontal Progression Pros/Cons
Less Constant Gear grinds to stay meta
Less new rewards since surpassing and recycling happens less often
Big Cross Classing but often most are illusion of choice
Content remains relevant longer due to high range and slow progress
Content becomes relevant longer because the max level and ceiling doesn't raise much
Always far behind the meta unless you play for long durations
Interesting stats are on gear because the gear has to progress sideways rather than a flat increase overall[/ul]

It took me awhile to see, but XIV definitely is not moving from Vertical progress due to the rise of casual mmo gaming, strict reliance on groups, and probably a hundred other reasons I didn't list.

If Horizontal progression is what you wish from XIV Nashred, I wouldn't hold my breath. Most mmos build towards the vacationer nowdays because that is where all the money is. There are a few that still build toward the residents. The nature won't change much, that's like asking the sun to shower water instead of sunlight.


#72 Aug 01 2016 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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It doesn't actually matter whether or not vertical or horizontal progression is better or worse than the other. What matters is, if you heavily prefer one of them over the other, you need to look at which one the game you're playing is designed with. Expecting a game to radically shift its entire progression system just because you think it should is ridiculous.

Quote:
No True Cross Classing only trees.


Btw while this is a totally valid complaint about FFXIV that I completely agree with, it actually has nothing whatsoever to do with the vertical progression system.
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#73 Aug 01 2016 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.


Boom, there is your answer.

FFXIV is a vertical-progression game. This is NEVER going to change.

The development team is definitely experimenting with new types of content to diversify the grind, and I expect we'll see more systems added with the 4.0 expansion, but the vertical nature of this game will never change.

And thus, your feelings will never change.

You will never like this game unless you learn to appreciate the benefits of vertical progression.


Defiantly a big part of it. I hoped they would come out with a better way instead of just running the last 3 dungeons to get better gear as the best way. Why not have up-gradable gear?
For a while crafting was cool when they had Supra and lucis. That equipment I liked it was hard to get and made a difference for crafting and was clearly the best for its time. Then they came out with quest-able gear that was better and made it feel like a complete waste of time doing the lucis. Now they have tomes gear for crafting too.. You do not have to be a good at crafting to get it either. Hard to handle.. I think that is what stinks a poor player can have as good gear than a hardcore or good player.

I could live with one flaw if there was content worth doing. I just do not see how vertical can work for long. People need rewards for doing the grind. I mean if I am going to spend hour upon hour doing something and I want it to be worth it. I do not want some crap level 1 piece of glamour gear.

I do not think anyone is going to like a game 100. I didn't always like FFXI.

Edited, Aug 1st 2016 2:24pm by Nashred
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#74 Aug 01 2016 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
It doesn't actually matter whether or not vertical or horizontal progression is better or worse than the other. What matters is, if you heavily prefer one of them over the other, you need to look at which one the game you're playing is designed with. Expecting a game to radically shift its entire progression system just because you think it should is ridiculous.

Quote:
No True Cross Classing only trees.


Btw while this is a totally valid complaint about FFXIV that I completely agree with, it actually has nothing whatsoever to do with the vertical progression system.

I see it the same.

If I can't go sideways and grow my character beyond one role and one spec, or customize current skills or traits or utilize different stats on gear to perform differently in content, then that to me is what I consider going upwards or vertical.

Where as in FFXI, I can go go sideways and grow my character beyond one role and one spec with subjobs, I can customize my skills or traits with free cross class, and I can customize my builds on gear to perform differently in various content.

This is why I love Elder Scrolls Online Vanilla. I can pick a class,morph my skills, pick a weapon, pick an attribute, level my champion points, put different traits on gear with crafting, armor and weapons have their own traits, race adds even more sideways variety, unlocking guilds adds more customization.

You say you don't like the combat. I absolutely adore it. It is an mmo version of Dark Souls with it's maneuver finesse system. Synergy provides a skillchain type system yet is more simplified and more boring than Renkai. NO GCD, the one thing I despise most in XIV. GCD dictates what skills you use and what order.
My problem with ESO is I notice it is starting to lose some of it's Horizontal magic with imbalance and performance issues.

I still like XIV alot. Because while not as grandiose as I would like. Most of the systems work so fugging fluid and with good performance.
#75 Aug 01 2016 at 12:36 PM Rating: Excellent
Some benefits of vertical progression, off the top of my head:

- No need to spend months/years grinding for single pieces of gear.
- When gear becomes "obsolete" after six months or longer, then it doesn't really matter because you didn't spent months grinding for it to begin with.
- Easier to get a full set of gear suitable for endgame.
- Constant influx of new content... no running the same content/instances for years on end (hello, sky/dynamis).

There are other benefits, but those are the big ones for me.

That said, I can easily see how those benefits can be turned into negatives by people who favor horizontal progression. But these are certainly benefits for people who like vertical games.
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#76 Aug 01 2016 at 12:36 PM Rating: Decent
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The cross class system in XIV needs to be eradicated completely and Jobs just given their own versions of the abilities (WAR and DRK getting their own Provoke, etc)

It's a relic from 1.0 that was never fully fleshed out. Shouldn't be in the game at this point.
#77 Aug 01 2016 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.


Boom, there is your answer.

FFXIV is a vertical-progression game. This is NEVER going to change.

The development team is definitely experimenting with new types of content to diversify the grind, and I expect we'll see more systems added with the 4.0 expansion, but the vertical nature of this game will never change.

And thus, your feelings will never change.

You will never like this game unless you learn to appreciate the benefits of vertical progression.


Though, they could do Vertical progression better. The problem is, the VP that XIV uses is shoddy and sadly Yoshida said flatout recently that it won't change due to being too risky to change it. He's scared of xyz (usually player/job inclusion) but every content, casual or otherwise, is designed with exclusion in mind unless the content is handholdingly easy.
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#78 Aug 01 2016 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.


Boom, there is your answer.

FFXIV is a vertical-progression game. This is NEVER going to change.

The development team is definitely experimenting with new types of content to diversify the grind, and I expect we'll see more systems added with the 4.0 expansion, but the vertical nature of this game will never change.

And thus, your feelings will never change.

You will never like this game unless you learn to appreciate the benefits of vertical progression.


Though, they could do Vertical progression better. The problem is, the VP that XIV uses is shoddy and sadly Yoshida said flatout recently that it won't change due to being too risky to change it. He's scared of xyz (usually player/job inclusion) but every content, casual or otherwise, is designed with exclusion in mind unless the content is handholdingly easy.

Except for me XIV instance are harder than XI. I feel like the harder XIV instances are on par with CoP difficulty pre nerf.I suck at reflex based things and the endgame revolves mostly around pounding keys while dodging stuff, versus more of "You can overcome stuff with your brains and less people by paying attention to the battle and environment, counters for each sequence,"

I care more about open world and deeper progression more so than just difficulty. As long as I have to think about more than time to move out of the way or toggle this thingy/switch in environment.





Edited, Aug 1st 2016 2:52pm by sandpark
#79 Aug 01 2016 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
The cross class system in XIV needs to be eradicated completely and Jobs just given their own versions of the abilities (WAR and DRK getting their own Provoke, etc)

It's a relic from 1.0 that was never fully fleshed out. Shouldn't be in the game at this point.


I agree. If it isn't something they can do well, they need to stop doing it. FFXI's job system blows it away, as does FFV's and FFT's. It's patently obvious that they either can't or don't want to fix the implementation of this system, so it really should go. It's holding them back at this point as far as developing new and interesting jobs goes.

Every physical dps needs to be able to cross class lancer for Invigorate....
Every healer has to be able to cross class conjurer for protect...
Every tank has to be able to cross class gladiator for provoke...

These are artificial limitations on the system that don't need to exist. Give the physical dps jobs unique methods for regaining TP... give the healers equivalent spells to protect... give the tanks their own versions of provoke. Permanently shackling all future jobs to this system is terrible and needs to stop.
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#80 Aug 01 2016 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.


Boom, there is your answer.

FFXIV is a vertical-progression game. This is NEVER going to change.

The development team is definitely experimenting with new types of content to diversify the grind, and I expect we'll see more systems added with the 4.0 expansion, but the vertical nature of this game will never change.

And thus, your feelings will never change.

You will never like this game unless you learn to appreciate the benefits of vertical progression.


Though, they could do Vertical progression better. The problem is, the VP that XIV uses is shoddy and sadly Yoshida said flatout recently that it won't change due to being too risky to change it. He's scared of xyz (usually player/job inclusion) but every content, casual or otherwise, is designed with exclusion in mind unless the content is handholdingly easy.


Yoshida deserves a ton of credit for turning this ship around but I really wish they'd bring in some new blood to shake things up a bit, but I'm sure the guys in suits in are equally to blame.
#81 Aug 01 2016 at 1:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yoshida deserves a ton of credit for turning this ship around but I really wish they'd bring in some new blood to shake things up a bit, but I'm sure the guys in suits in are equally to blame.


Was anyone from XI's dev team brought over to the XIV team after the end of significant XI development?

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#82 Aug 01 2016 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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@ Thayos

I know for sure Komoto was.
#83 Aug 01 2016 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Yoshida deserves a ton of credit for turning this ship around but I really wish they'd bring in some new blood to shake things up a bit, but I'm sure the guys in suits in are equally to blame.


Was anyone from XI's dev team brought over to the XIV team after the end of significant XI development?



They've all been on it except for the obvious few (Matsui in particular.) Since looking at credits, the few that still work on XI also work on XIV but given the contrast, I think it still comes down to them not really being "allowed" to do much more.

Honestly, they said they were giving Yoshi the freedom he needs (and he's even said it at one point during 2.0 interviews) so the suits definitely are to blame (president said for XIV to basically be the focus on making them money in simple terms on the last report) but yoshi has far more control than Tanaka or Matsui ever had.
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#84 Aug 01 2016 at 4:10 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
And this is exactly the kind of content FFXIV needs more of. We need more inclusive content that both small and large groups can enjoy, where people don't need to worry about finding statics for hours upon hours of practice just to get to the point of having a shot at an RNG drop.


Even in WoW where raids are actually decently programmed to scale to group size, the 'sweetspot' raid size for heroic dungeons(WoW's version of midcore) was 9 players. 2 tanks, 3 healers and 4 or 5 DPS. It was like this mostly because it struck the balance between content difficulty and organizing the actual group. Encounters generally tended to get easier as group size increased, but it was like that more because of in-combat raises, encounters being possible with dead players and other things of this sort.

I dunno. Maybe I'm just a ****, but I had no problem removing players from groups if they weren't at least making notable progress in understanding encounter mechanics. To be fair, most of these are the same things we saw leveling up just in larger scale, more frequently and dealing more damage.

I just don't see smaller group content with the same difficulty coming to XIV unless Yoshi decides to rip challenge modes from WoW or something like that. Even then, that mode in WoW required raid level gear to clear with any consistency so you'd have to be raiding anyway...
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#85 Aug 01 2016 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
the 'sweetspot' raid size for heroic dungeons(WoW's version of midcore) was 9 players. 2 tanks, 3 healers and 4 or 5 DPS.


Minimum raid size in WoW has been 10 players for about 10 years now. And actually 10-man raiding is one of the more difficult things you can attempt because of the limited resources you're able to bring to any given encounter. In general the more players you have, the easier the encounter gets because the margin of individual player error goes up the more of you there are.

Mythic raiding (the top-end hardcore version of raiding that eats your pets) is set at a hard 20 players.

Quote:
Even then, that mode in WoW required raid level gear to clear with any consistency so you'd have to be raiding anyway...


Actually challenge modes cap your item level to about heroic 5-man levels. So no matter how decked out you are in unimaginable power, your item level is basically what a fresh max level character has after a couple days of dungeons. And then they give you a stopwatch and say go.
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#86 Aug 02 2016 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.


Boom, there is your answer.

FFXIV is a vertical-progression game. This is NEVER going to change.

The development team is definitely experimenting with new types of content to diversify the grind, and I expect we'll see more systems added with the 4.0 expansion, but the vertical nature of this game will never change.

And thus, your feelings will never change.

You will never like this game unless you learn to appreciate the benefits of vertical progression.


Though, they could do Vertical progression better. The problem is, the VP that XIV uses is shoddy and sadly Yoshida said flatout recently that it won't change due to being too risky to change it. He's scared of xyz (usually player/job inclusion) but every content, casual or otherwise, is designed with exclusion in mind unless the content is handholdingly easy.


Yoshida deserves a ton of credit for turning this ship around but I really wish they'd bring in some new blood to shake things up a bit, but I'm sure the guys in suits in are equally to blame.



I agree with this...
No doubt he turned the game around.
I just wonder if he has the resources to actually do more. You can have all the freedom in the world but if you do not have the resources what can you do.
I sometimes feel like they do not believe the game is successful themselves.
But I think they have a formula that works for now and are also afraid to change it, or better yet just add to it.
To me is they have change something or people will eventually get bored.


You know Tesee and I were talking about things last night..
You know the rewards in this game are so bad. You finished Heavensward and what did you get? A level 1 gear, a minion and some gill... A whole expansion you paid 60.00 for and that is the reward for finishing the whole expansion?

We are going to go to FFXI but still Comeback for the patches, probably not every patch it only takes a few days to do them anyway so we can do a few at a time.



Edited, Aug 2nd 2016 11:29am by Nashred
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#87 Aug 02 2016 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:


- Constant influx of new content... no running the same content/instances for years on end (hello, sky/dynamis).

That said, I can easily see how those benefits can be turned into negatives by people who favor horizontal progression. But these are certainly benefits for people who like vertical games.


I think a good example of that would be that there is more room for new types of content to be developed in a game with horizontal progression. In a vertical system you have to replace everything every few months. XIV is a good example of that as they have these big patches that they put a lot of effort into, but for the most part it isn't actually new content, it is just a new skin on the same content. Two new dungeons and/or a remake of an old dungeon, all of which have the exact same straight layout with three bosses, a raid either 8-man or 24-man depending on which patch, a bit of story and a primal with a few different difficulties. Every now and then you get a new type of content, like Diadem or w/e, but that isn't actually content that stays relevant unless they keep updating it and since they can't update too many things all the time it is hard to make it have much use for more than a couple of weeks. Also on top of this, you do still have to do old content to get roulette done.

Comparing that to a horizontal system like XI you keep on building on everything which gives you a lot more freedom to build on and develop new types of content.

Like you said I have negatives for every positive you listed and more, but that is how everything is. We all like different things after all.

Anyway, Karlina mentioned that horizontal progression worked so well in XI because of gear swapping and I agree, but I do think there was one other thing that also played a large role. The very thing that Thayos mentioned earlier about content being a lot more flexible in how you could approach it. You could do Dynamis with ten people if you wanted to and it had its perks, but you could also go in with 64(?) people if you wanted to. The same thing applied to a lot of the content to an extent at least and for the most part there were pros and cons to each way like one being faster but you have to split the loot vs slower killing but less people to split loot with etc.

The reason this was so important in my opinion (in regards to horizontal progression) is that people often talk about how it is so much easier to come back and catch up in vertical progression games, but for me that has never been true in the sense that I don't "need" to catch up in a horizontal system. And that isn't because of how horizontal progression itself works, but how most horizontal games I've seen work. In XI I always have things to work for at my own pace when coming back, but I could always participate in endgame even when I didn't have the best gear available. Why? Because for the most part I was just an extra helping hand and not a liability that took someone elses spot for anything. I was just someone more to chat and have fun with. In games like XIV that isn't true and that is mostly why catching up even matters in the first place. Regardless of if a game is vertical or horizontal I think this is a much better way of making content.

Edited, Aug 2nd 2016 12:40pm by Belcrono
#88 Aug 02 2016 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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Belcrono wrote:
Thayos wrote:


- Constant influx of new content... no running the same content/instances for years on end (hello, sky/dynamis).

That said, I can easily see how those benefits can be turned into negatives by people who favor horizontal progression. But these are certainly benefits for people who like vertical games.


I think a good example of that would be that there is more room for new types of content to be developed in a game with horizontal progression. In a vertical system you have to replace everything every few months. XIV is a good example of that as they have these big patches that they put a lot of effort into, but for the most part it isn't actually new content, it is just a new skin on the same content. Two new dungeons and/or a remake of an old dungeon, all of which have the exact same straight layout with three bosses, a raid either 8-man or 24-man depending on which patch, a bit of story and a primal with a few different difficulties. Every now and then you get a new type of content, like Diadem or w/e, but that isn't actually content that stays relevant unless they keep updating it and since they can't update too many things all the time it is hard to make it have much use for more than a couple of weeks. Also on top of this, you do still have to do old content to get roulette done.

Comparing that to a horizontal system like XI you keep on building on everything which gives you a lot more freedom to build on and develop new types of content.

Like you said I have negatives for every positive you listed and more, but that is how everything is. We all like different things after all.

Anyway, Karlina mentioned that horizontal progression worked so well in XI because of gear swapping and I agree, but I do think there was one other thing that also played a large role. The very thing that Thayos mentioned earlier about content being a lot more flexible in how you could approach it. You could do Dynamis with ten people if you wanted to and it had its perks, but you could also go in with 64(?) people if you wanted to. The same thing applied to a lot of the content to an extent at least and for the most part there were pros and cons to each way like one being faster but you have to split the loot vs slower killing but less people to split loot with etc.

The reason this was so important in my opinion (in regards to horizontal progression) is that people often talk about how it is so much easier to come back and catch up in vertical progression games, but for me that has never been true in the sense that I don't "need" to catch up in a horizontal system. And that isn't because of how horizontal progression itself works, but how most horizontal games I've seen work. In XI I always have things to work for at my own pace when coming back, but I could always participate in endgame even when I didn't have the best gear available. Why? Because for the most part I was just an extra helping hand and not a liability that took someone elses spot for anything. I was just someone more to chat and have fun with. In games like XIV that isn't true and that is mostly why catching up even matters in the first place. Regardless of if a game is vertical or horizontal I think this is a much better way of making content.

Edited, Aug 2nd 2016 12:40pm by Belcrono

Since Horizontal progression isn't aimed at providing you new content every 3 months but instead focuses on providing longer investment and longer sustain into that content. It is usually resigned as Hardcore while Vertical progression is aimed at providing you additional content every 3 months and focuses on shorter term investments and shorter sustain into that content usually resigned Casual. You have your residents and your vacationers.

I believe there can be a compromise. Both Hardcore and Casuals want rewarding interesting content. Hardcore want something that requires a lot of time to invest in but not necessarily long single play durations. Casual want something that requires some investment with a bit less time investment than a hardcore and definitely not in long play durations.

The framework for endgame is already there for both casual and hardcore, meaning most things don't require 3-10 hour play durations but 1 hour or shorter. The only thing keeping content in the elite or hardcore realm is the enemy mechanics with the jump roping, strict builds, and the focus on solo rotations being the prime goal versus team dynamics being the prime goal which forces players to either have the highly competent participants with flexible schedules or have issues progressing.

Hey If Yoshi likes and has reasons that instanced strict rule content is the fairest way and the easiest way to maintain fairness, that is great. However, that shouldn't mean that everything has to be the same or should be the same. There can be dungeons and raids like there are now. But there could also be 2-3 hours open dungeons/zones likes Sky, Sea, Abyssea within the game.
#89 Aug 02 2016 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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Belcrono wrote:
Thayos wrote:


- Constant influx of new content... no running the same content/instances for years on end (hello, sky/dynamis).

That said, I can easily see how those benefits can be turned into negatives by people who favor horizontal progression. But these are certainly benefits for people who like vertical games.


I think a good example of that would be that there is more room for new types of content to be developed in a game with horizontal progression. In a vertical system you have to replace everything every few months. XIV is a good example of that as they have these big patches that they put a lot of effort into, but for the most part it isn't actually new content, it is just a new skin on the same content. Two new dungeons and/or a remake of an old dungeon, all of which have the exact same straight layout with three bosses, a raid either 8-man or 24-man depending on which patch, a bit of story and a primal with a few different difficulties. Every now and then you get a new type of content, like Diadem or w/e, but that isn't actually content that stays relevant unless they keep updating it and since they can't update too many things all the time it is hard to make it have much use for more than a couple of weeks. Also on top of this, you do still have to do old content to get roulette done.

Comparing that to a horizontal system like XI you keep on building on everything which gives you a lot more freedom to build on and develop new types of content.

Like you said I have negatives for every positive you listed and more, but that is how everything is. We all like different things after all.

Anyway, Karlina mentioned that horizontal progression worked so well in XI because of gear swapping and I agree, but I do think there was one other thing that also played a large role. The very thing that Thayos mentioned earlier about content being a lot more flexible in how you could approach it. You could do Dynamis with ten people if you wanted to and it had its perks, but you could also go in with 64(?) people if you wanted to. The same thing applied to a lot of the content to an extent at least and for the most part there were pros and cons to each way like one being faster but you have to split the loot vs slower killing but less people to split loot with etc.

The reason this was so important in my opinion (in regards to horizontal progression) is that people often talk about how it is so much easier to come back and catch up in vertical progression games, but for me that has never been true in the sense that I don't "need" to catch up in a horizontal system. And that isn't because of how horizontal progression itself works, but how most horizontal games I've seen work. In XI I always have things to work for at my own pace when coming back, but I could always participate in endgame even when I didn't have the best gear available. Why? Because for the most part I was just an extra helping hand and not a liability that took someone elses spot for anything. I was just someone more to chat and have fun with. In games like XIV that isn't true and that is mostly why catching up even matters in the first place. Regardless of if a game is vertical or horizontal I think this is a much better way of making content.

Edited, Aug 2nd 2016 12:40pm by Belcrono



This is a great post and is exactly my feelings.

I agree to with sandpark though why cant there be compromise.

Look at the original relic in FFXIV it took time and offered a better piece of gear. It was not done right but it is just a example that it could be done.
Why can you not have some gear that takes work to get for those with the time to do it? Why not have both. This gives a path that is easy to catch up and those that put time in have something to be proud of. FFXI rarely had new people because of the issue of catching up.. They have changed that too in FFXI for those who want to come back with sparks gear. Sparks gear makes it easy to gear up.. They also have a easy way to upgrade all AF and relic gear in FFXI.
I just do not know why a hybrid system would not work.


For me I want some original content not just cookie cutter dungeons. It feels like they are throwing out content just to throw it out. there is not lack of content but lack of new original content. Game companies are starting to make me feel like I am stupid and gamers are stupid and the lack any imagination or skill anymore. No one wants challenge. If that is so why do I see so many people looking for challenge.

You are right they are just re skinning everything and adding a few moves different by renaming some abilities.

Pretty soon this game is going to be so big they are going to have to shut dungeons down or areas because once done they are useless.

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#90 Aug 02 2016 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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By the way just purchased a refurb laptop to play FFXI on...
AMD A8-7410U Quad Core Processor 2.2GHz /4 Cores / Max boost 2.5GHz

17.3" HD+ (1600x900) LED Display with Turelife and HD Web Camera

8GB DDR3L 1600MHz RAM

1TB SATA 5400rpm Hard Drive

8X DVD +/- RW Drive

Integrated AMD R5 Graphics with One HDMI Port

I think this should be fine..
Should we move to server Asura?

I will probably go to the FFXI forums for this.



We are going to play both games for a while but come back every few patches for FFXIV.
Tesee is keeping her main so she can go into her house every so often but dropping retainers for now.
I am dropping everything between patches.
Who knows maybe they will come out with some new engaging material or a hybrid progression.


Edited, Aug 2nd 2016 3:31pm by Nashred
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#91 Aug 02 2016 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Minimum raid size in WoW has been 10 players for about 10 years now.

This statement is incorrect. 'Flex raid'(the official term for it if you want to search) was available even prior to the last expansion. It was built into the LFR with WoD expansion.

I say that 9-10 man was the sweetspot, but that's mostly due to people not wanting to search for more players than that for PUGs. Generally speaking though, the more people you threw at the content, the more it rewarded you and the easier it became to defeat.

Archmage Callinon wrote:
Actually challenge modes cap your item level to about heroic 5-man levels. So no matter how decked out you are in unimaginable power, your item level is basically what a fresh max level character has after a couple days of dungeons. And then they give you a stopwatch and say go.

Trinkets. Plain and simple.

While it's true that your item level was capped and also that you couldn't use set bonuses from raid gear, trinkets still granted much higher benefits than any other single slot item. There are programs and websites for WoW that you can use to calculate which items are upgrades and by how much. Trinkets were almost always at the top of the list in terms of how much benefit was gained from a single slot.


Edited, Aug 2nd 2016 4:29pm by FilthMcNasty
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#92 Aug 02 2016 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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Best part is.

All they need to do is add a "Battle Arena" to the Gold Saucer and throw in battles there through half updates and you could satisfy people quite easily because the thing that ALWAYS lasts every update:

-Raid
-Alliance (weekly lockout forces this to last)
-Primal.

Any other content introduced is obsoleted, exhausted or ignored within the first week. Palace of the Dead would suffer the same fate if it didn't offer a content obsoleting weapon and materia. Literally, I've amassed more Tier V materia (70) in a short span of time than I did in all the inclusion of Derpadem, VoidArk and Weeping City. Not even going to talk about gear conversion.

"Battle Arena" can suit the purpose of not only redoing old battles as people requested (the game's core supports this as we've found out when working on a private server...) but it also serves the purpose of things like "the Dragon's Neck", can throw in fights based on other FF games (it is a fan service title) which can either be difficult (for progression themed based gear) or on the easy side for theme based glamour or offer a venue for people to "grow" their skills as it gets progressively harder.

Takes far less work too because they already reuse assets and recolors (The Vault versus Vault revisit or Research Facility vs the revisit etc.)

Like I said, there's just so much more they can actually do if they truly wanted to, but yoshi has basically said he won't divert from current plan. He's even said they CAN do a lot with the itemization but choose not to as well. So in all reality, its less about "no resources or manpower" and more about "everyone is happy with what we throw at them now, why do anything else?"

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#93 Aug 02 2016 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
This statement is incorrect. 'Flex raid'(the official term for it if you want to search) was available even prior to the last expansion. It was built into the LFR with WoD expansion.

I say that 9-10 man was the sweetspot, but that's mostly due to people not wanting to search for more players than that for PUGs. Generally speaking though, the more people you threw at the content, the more it rewarded you and the easier it became to defeat.


The flexible raid size was introduced in Siege of Orgrimmar, the final raid of the Mists of Pandaria expansion as a difficulty between LFR and Normal in which you could bring between 10 and 25 players and the raid would adjust its numbers accordingly.

Starting in Warlords of Draenor, the flexible raid difficulty as a name was removed and the functionality was added to the Normal and Heroic difficulties. The upper limit of players was also bumped up to 30 at this time. WoD LFR is built by a matchmaking system and will always fill to 25 people. While it can technically scale itself the same way as normal and heroic, the system will work to backfill until it's a 25 person raid. The only way to do LFR with more than 25 people is to build the raid yourself. Even then, the raid size is between 10 and 30 players.

No raid in World of Warcraft has ever been built for fewer than 10 people.

While you can technically enter a raid by yourself, the minimum scaling point for the numbers in the raid is for 10 players. At no point in World of Warcraft has it ever been advantageous to enter a raid with fewer than the minimum number of players (except for an achievement at the beginning of Wrath of the Lich King that asked you to do just that... but that was an achievement, not an advantage).

As for the sweet spot in PUGs it tends to fall somewhere between 15 and 20 players when using scalable raids, and before that it was always the maximum number of players possible (either 10 or 25 depending on the raid difficulty).
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#94 Aug 02 2016 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Either way, more players meant more loot(up to cap), raid difficulty went down as player numbers increased and vice versa. Time searching for more players and time spent practicing were mentioned in the same sentence but have the opposite relation of what was being represented.

You also forgot to consider secondary stats as motivation to get better pieces of gear for challenge modes. Just because your 630 gear gives you the same amount of base attributesas the scaled down ilvl 700 gear gives doesn't mean you that they're the same. Depending on your spec, a piece of gear with 100 Str/Stam that has crit and mastery may **** all over a piece of gear that has 100 Str/Stam that has multistrike and versatility...

I think we're back to the point in the discussion where someone mentions that they want lowman content that offers the same rewards as larger scale raiding. What were the rewards for challenge modes?
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#95 Aug 02 2016 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
What were the rewards for challenge modes?


Cosmetic gear for getting gold times in all dungeons, a mount for getting silver times in all dungeons. In Legion however, the mythic+ dungeons will award raid level gear and can scale their difficulty up to however high you'd like to go.

Quote:
You also forgot to consider secondary stats as motivation to get better pieces of gear for challenge modes.


Maybe if you weren't itemizing your character properly in the first place? Stat weights change a little as gear levels go up, but not a ton.
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#96 Aug 02 2016 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
[quote]Cosmetic gear for getting gold times in all dungeons, a mount for getting silver times in all dungeons. In Legion however, the mythic+ dungeons will award raid level gear and can scale their difficulty up to however high you'd like to go.

Challenge modes just essentially take what is there, impose limitations so that you're somewhat gear balanced to the content and then challenge you to clear as quickly as possible. It's lowman content, but it's ^not going to be more punishing than if they just slapped some limitations on current dungeons and handed out glamours, mounts and minions.

I know that some players won't be happy with it not awarding raid level gear, but I also don't think those players would want to put in the time if something like mythic dungeons came to XIV. I guess we'll see how it shakes out in WoW, but I imagine since it's actually difficult and not just a speedrun, players will opt toward specific group compositions and spend quite a bit of time clearing.


Edited, Aug 3rd 2016 2:16am by FilthMcNasty
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#97 Aug 03 2016 at 8:46 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I know that some players won't be happy with it not awarding raid level gear, but I also don't think those players would want to put in the time if something like mythic dungeons came to XIV. I guess we'll see how it shakes out in WoW, but I imagine since it's actually difficult and not just a speedrun, players will opt toward specific group compositions and spend quite a bit of time clearing.


Maybe. I quite like the concept of the Mythic+ dungeons and XIV could benefit from having content like that.

I'll break it down here for people who might not be up to date on what's happening in a game they don't play..

Basically you purchase a keystone that's attuned to one dungeon. This keystone starts at level 1 and each time you clear the dungeon using the keystone, the keystone levels up. Every level the keystone goes up, the dungeon gets slightly harder. Every few levels the keystone gains a new affect like "all mobs enrage at 30%" or "threat generation is greatly reduced" that sort of thing. Each level the keystone goes up also increases the level of gear awarded at the end of the dungeon up to the current tier of raid gear. However, if you fail to clear the dungeon, your keystone is destroyed and you have to start again with a new one the following week (you get one per reset). Only the leader's keystone is used to make the dungeon.

It's small party content that awards high end gear if and only if you're good enough to get through the higher difficulties. It requires only a single party (no raid) and while the dungeon will probably take a little longer to complete, it's still just a dungeon and not a full blown raid.
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#98 Aug 03 2016 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
I'll break it down here for people who might not be up to date on what's happening in a game they don't play..


Hunh, that sounds pretty fun... Thanks for the description.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2016 2:34pm by Yelta
#99 Aug 03 2016 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
It's small party content that awards high end gear if and only if you're good enough to get through the higher difficulties. It requires only a single party (no raid) and while the dungeon will probably take a little longer to complete, it's still just a dungeon and not a full blown raid.

I like the idea personally, but I still don't think it's going to be for players who don't raid. It's static fodder since most players won't have time to finish in a single sitting. If you're bad time out on floor 1 then it's about an hour of time lost, no sweat. If you're successful and keep climbing however... you're looking at having to split progress over more than one session. Already looking at way more time spent in a day than I'd ever throw at someone I called casual Smiley: grin
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#100 Aug 04 2016 at 2:14 AM Rating: Good
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I'd say what kills it or me is the stone shattering. Much as I loathe lockouts, I'd rather see a specific level locked to like a 2h timer than forcing everyone to go 1-whatever again, as the over time effect is likely more consuming. Plus lower levels will eventually reward things nobody'll want/need. Otherwise, leveling up your personal starting point would simply require beating them sequentially. 1 > 2 > 3 = level 4. Starting at 5 from someone else would still leave you at 1 (or 4 if using prior).
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#101 Aug 09 2016 at 12:53 AM Rating: Good
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Gave The Elder Scrolls Online a try since it was on sale. Looked fun and felt good at first. 5 levels later i quickly realised why the game was horrible, or any free to play game for that matter.

Lets start with, i noticed you could swim, but not dive. Not a big deal, easily added, though the ocean floors were all flat and empty, no seaweed or anything even. Minor point perhaps, but thats not where i'm going with this. It would have been easily added, but the game is free (and has been out for a while). The only way the devs are getting money is from making silly hats or mounts they can sell in the cashshop. Their time wouldnt be spend redecorating the ocean and adding underwater swimming since that would be a waste of time that they could have spend on making money.

Then i had a look at the map when i was finally out of the starting island. Everything is locked behind a paywall. Everything. Its a mostly empty world map, with some lands here and there. Center of the map Cyrodill? Money. Dungeons? Money. Lands around the edges? Yup, money, the only features and maps they are going to add are all going to have to be purchased. I dont mind purchasing an expansionpack, but i'm not handing over €15-20 so i can access one extra guild. Or €120 for all of them. Or €15 for each little piece of the map, which is still mostly empty. And the only way people are going to get more pieces is if the devs make them and put them on sale.

Which, ok, is their business model. I understand. But they're rushing, not putting in as much work as they should or could, since they have to move on to the next thing to make for cash. And that are just the extra features... The base game is never going to be adjusted since time is money, and it feels like we'll forever be stuck with an unfinished game with 4 classes, 7 diffirent weapons and every little piece that needs to be bought inside an infinitely incomplete and lacking world.

That said, it woke me up and got me back to XIV fully again.

Free-to-play will forever be the downfall of any game.

(Sorry, typed on phone on my way to work, some errors)

Edited, Aug 9th 2016 8:58am by KojiroSoma
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