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#27 Jul 28 2016 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
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You have to put my statement into the context of what was happening almost a decade ago.


Ok... they were still pretty different. With the exception of the races being identical because laziness, they were VERY different games even back in the caveman times of 2006.

And then a whole lot of ignoring their players later, 2.0 comes out and is even more different.

Even if FFXIV wasn't necessarily a good idea at the time (I don't concede that), it's certainly a good idea NOW with major FFXI development stopped. If anything it shows they took a bad idea and turned it into an advantage.


Just a few things...

As stated, XIV was originally intended to be the next gen FFXI that PS2 couldn't support. The reason I note 'PS2 limitations' as a valid excuse.

Also, the fact that XIV borrowed so heavily from games already on the market kinda ***** on the argument that it was a good idea in it's current state. The one thing that most players could agree on was that we wanted something different. We didn't want another XI, we didn't want an FF flavored WoW... we wanted XIV to be different.

The unfortunate irony is that XIV turned out different because it's so much trying to be everything else...
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#28 Jul 28 2016 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
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As stated, XIV was originally intended to be the next gen FFXI that PS2 couldn't support.


That may have been the intention but it wasn't what happened. At no point would anyone playing XIV 1.0 have reasonably said "yeah, this is pretty much FFXI but more up to date." That would have been a ridiculous statement.

Quote:
Also, the fact that XIV borrowed so heavily from games already on the market kinda ***** on the argument that it was a good idea in it's current state.


Which XIV are you talking about here? 1.0 or 2.0? 1.0 borrowed only from Tanaka's fevered brain. Part of the reason it was such a colossal failure at launch was because it seemed to go out of its way to not follow any market standards because it wanted to be arbitrarily different in random and meaningless ways that contributed nothing positive to the game.

Quote:
We didn't want another XI, we didn't want an FF flavored WoW...


Speak for yourself. That was exactly what I wanted. Actually I remember having that conversation with a friend of mine at the time, that what we really wanted XIV to be was WoW but in FF form. We were both big fans of FFXI (and had been playing it for years) but we'd found WoW to just be more fun to play. An FF-styled WoW was exactly what we wanted.

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The unfortunate irony is that XIV turned out different because it's so much trying to be everything else...


I'm not sure what this means.
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#29 Jul 28 2016 at 10:17 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
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We didn't want another XI, we didn't want an FF flavored WoW...


Speak for yourself. That was exactly what I wanted. Actually I remember having that conversation with a friend of mine at the time, that what we really wanted XIV to be was WoW but in FF form.

You were likely in the minority. When XIV was announced the knee jerk reaction was 'am I gonna be able to migrate all my data from XI into XIV'. As someone who worked his *** off for a slice of that relic pie, you can imagine that I wasn't at all excited about trying to start over just for the sake of more inventory space and shiny spell effects.

Nothing does WoW as well as WoW does, much less better than they do it. There's a reason why there isn't a WoW 2. It mainly has to do with already dominating the market. A caveat is that expanding and improving was never an issue because there was no console locking you into place.

Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
The unfortunate irony is that XIV turned out different because it's so much trying to be everything else...
I'm not sure what this means.

XIV set out to be the same(or at least very similar) as XI and ended up being different mostly because it was the same as everything that set XI apart from those games. Many of those things were reasons why XI was a preferred game for some players.

Also, it was more than just a preference. It was almost taboo to utter those 3 letters in an XI or XIV forum(see signature). This was at a point where I was lobbying for more of the basic systems that made WoW and other games more user friendly(UI, auto sorting, better options for gear swaps, more inventory... ect.).

It's a questionable decision to make the same game with better graphics and ask players to subscribe to both games. It's flat out nutty to put out a mediocre copy of other games that are already out and expect a better result. Just my opinion.




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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#30 Jul 28 2016 at 10:53 PM Rating: Excellent
Phone double post!

Edited, Jul 28th 2016 9:55pm by Thayos
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#31 Jul 28 2016 at 10:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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When XIV was announced the knee jerk reaction was 'am I gonna be able to migrate all my data from XI into XIV'.


And I think you were in the minority there.

I still have fun with XI, and it still offers a very different experience than XIV, but that's both good and bad. Take Ambuscade, for example. It's not really new and exciting content. And dear lord are the fights long and boring. But it's cool to have goals to grind for, and XI will always occupy that special place in my gaming heart, no matter how dated it gets.

Oddly, FFXI has more meaningful content still for solo players and groups of different sizes, while XIV is still stuck on eight-man content that highly favors statics. That is really holding XIV back.

Edited, Jul 28th 2016 9:57pm by Thayos

Edited, Jul 28th 2016 9:58pm by Thayos
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#32 Jul 29 2016 at 4:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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To this day, I still feel some people grossly underestimate just what an XI 2.0 would've meant in terms of cost and effort. I can ultimately see the decision to go for a different game entirely being based on the fact having a bunch of people already max level/pimped out wouldn't have made the most inviting experience for newcomers, as well as essentially making early content meaningless despite all that would've had to go into converting. Thus, the high end would've gotten bored more quickly while the fresh meat would just feel alienated and maybe not quite grasp the developed culture.

On the graphics end, the simplest tweak XI could hope for nowadays would be higher resolution textures. However, that would come at the cost of increased HD space and XI is already a pretty meaty install. Doing any more than that would require additional polygons being added to models, and with that all the mesh linking needed to make things run smooth. This would pretty much mean writing all cut-scenes from scratch, as you'd have data bits present the game wouldn't know what to do with then. New lighting/shadow engines also carry their own challenges, with environment design needing further (re)testing to make sure people can't fall through areas or get to places they aren't meant to, especially if jumping's involved.

So, to me, a new game seems like a no-brainer. I think the really head scratcher, however, is that SE basically decided to compete against themselves with another MMO while offering no real synergy between the products like a (permanent) joint monthly fee or even the reduction of XI's cost despite its present minimalist development. I'll be forever inclined to say both games have issues despite my sustained belief that no MMO justifies a monthly fee anymore, but that doesn't mean either is unplayable or automatically better than the other. XI's ilvl system doesn't confuse me at all, as an example, and I'd certainly take the game's current incarnation over 75 cap CoP era, or what the private scene seems to infer to as XI's golden age despite the sheer impossibility of replicating that experience with populations 90% or more smaller at peak times than that of the time.
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#33 Jul 29 2016 at 5:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
As stated, XIV was originally intended to be the next gen FFXI that PS2 couldn't support.


That may have been the intention but it wasn't what happened. At no point would anyone playing XIV 1.0 have reasonably said "yeah, this is pretty much FFXI but more up to date." That would have been a ridiculous statement.

Quote:
Also, the fact that XIV borrowed so heavily from games already on the market kinda ***** on the argument that it was a good idea in it's current state.


Which XIV are you talking about here? 1.0 or 2.0? 1.0 borrowed only from Tanaka's fevered brain. Part of the reason it was such a colossal failure at launch was because it seemed to go out of its way to not follow any market standards because it wanted to be arbitrarily different in random and meaningless ways that contributed nothing positive to the game.

Quote:
We didn't want another XI, we didn't want an FF flavored WoW...


Speak for yourself. That was exactly what I wanted. Actually I remember having that conversation with a friend of mine at the time, that what we really wanted XIV to be was WoW but in FF form. We were both big fans of FFXI (and had been playing it for years) but we'd found WoW to just be more fun to play. An FF-styled WoW was exactly what we wanted.

Quote:
The unfortunate irony is that XIV turned out different because it's so much trying to be everything else...


I'm not sure what this means.


I don't know if it was simply because I didn't play the at-launch 1.0 (I picked it up on the final build, the 1.23 under Yoshi about 4 months before Dalamud fell), but by then it really actually DID feel very much like a sequel to XI to me. Sure there were some differences like using partial TP for weapon skills and the like but the vibe and the combat felt a great deal like it was set out to be like XI but updated. Just my view of it though.
#34 Jul 29 2016 at 9:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
That is really holding XIV back.

I still think it's players holding themselves back. If SE suddenly dropped more difficult raids to 5 players instead of 8 you'd still have people showing up late, calling in sick or getting frustrated and quitting.

You also have to consider that there are only so many tanks in the world of Eorzea to go around. If you lower the group requirement numbers, you artificially inflate demand for tanks. All I played in XIV was a tank and I'll still tell you that's a bad thing. You already start at a tank deficit so this would make it worse.

I dunno. Perhaps the population of XIV has dwindled down to a point where lower requirements are necessary. I'm not making a judgement here because I really can't say, but that would be about the only reason for it. That's the reason why XI is so 'lowman friendly' anyway.

Seriha wrote:
To this day, I still feel some people grossly underestimate just what an XI 2.0 would've meant in terms of cost and effort. I can ultimately see the decision to go for a different game entirely being based on the fact having a bunch of people already max level/pimped out wouldn't have made the most inviting experience for newcomers


I don't think it would have cost that much more to be honest. I'd say it would definitely cost less in hindsight considering they had to develop XIV 3 times before it took.

As far as being daunting for new players, probably not any more daunting than ARR. They just gave new players the choice to roll on a new or old servers. Wouldn't have been much different for XI. Actually, considering the damage that the great inflation had already done, it probably woulnd't have mattered much at all from an economic standpoint.

As ro aesthetic, I think XI uses higher resolution textures that are scaled down(similar to the changes between 1.0 and ARR graphics). If they unlocked high resolution textures, unlocked frame rate and even spent just a few years tweaking and adding background and ambience, they could easily bring the game's looks up to at least 2010 standard. You'd still be able to run the game well on a cheap PC too.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#35 Jul 29 2016 at 10:54 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I still think it's players holding themselves back. If SE suddenly dropped more difficult raids to 5 players instead of 8 you'd still have people showing up late, calling in sick or getting frustrated and quitting.


No, it's not about that at all.

I logged into XI the other night, and two of my old friends who still play were running Ambuscade. I immediately jumped in with them and we pumped out several runs. It didn't matter that their gear was much better (essentially making them higher level) or that I hadn't played in awhile, or that a third person was going to join their two-person endeavor. The content in XI is flexible enough for players to randomly jump in without needing to know a song-and-dance routine in order for the group to succeed. People who don't play often can easily jump in with people who play all the time.

This is what XIV needs more of. It needs less rigid content that allows players to just play the **** game without having to memorize all kinds of dance routines.

Quote:
(The dwindling population is) the reason why XI is so 'lowman friendly' anyway.


This is half true. The game became much more lowman friendly with the launch of Abyssea, back when the population was quite healthy. And even in XI's heyday, there were various events people could participate in (both large and small groups) without any need for statics.

The Trust system took lowmanning content to entirely new levels. However, XIV has a large enough playerbase that no trust system would be needed. SE just needs to create content that people can do with greater flexibility.
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#36 Jul 30 2016 at 1:44 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
[quote]The content in XI is flexible enough for players to randomly jump in without needing to know a song-and-dance routine in order for the group to succeed. People who don't play often can easily jump in with people who play all the time.


Is the population in XIV not high enough? The reason why there are more lowman friendly events is because the population of XI is smaller. It doesn't have anything to do with our busy schedules or our unwillingness to find a static group.

I'm not arguing encounter mechanics because it doesn't have place here. That's a matter of personal preference. It's not actually a problem unless the players who are willing to participate in it are unable to for reasons out of their control. I hate to say it Thayos, but we knew that's what we were going to get. It's fair to say that you are disappointed by the lack of alternate content(I was too which is why I don't play anymore), but again we knew what kind of team Yoshi is working with.

Thayos wrote:
This is half true. The game became much more lowman friendly with the launch of Abyssea, back when the population was quite healthy. And even in XI's heyday, there were various events people could participate in (both large and small groups) without any need for statics.

Aside from a few times I've gone back for random things to gearswap, the vast majority of my time in Abyssea was spent in an alliance, sometimes one of several. Abyssea eventually became lowman content, but it didn't start out that way at all.

I honestly don't know what to think anymore. The draw of MMOs for me since the beginning was the social aspect. Meeting new people and teaming up for large scale battles. Anything from running through Ordelles with a bunch of lowbies, kiting droves of orcs around the outpost in garrisons, mashing skulls in events like Dynamis, Besieged and Einherjar...

It's almost as if players want a single player experience in an online game. They don't want to voice chat. They don't want large scale encounters. I mean... the trust system is great and all, but I'm beyond the need to level so I rarely use it. Most of the time there are folks in LS who are more than happy to team up because, well it used to be the point.

Edited, Jul 30th 2016 3:48am by FilthMcNasty
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#37 Jul 30 2016 at 8:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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I still think it's players holding themselves back. If SE suddenly dropped more difficult raids to 5 players instead of 8 you'd still have people showing up late, calling in sick or getting frustrated and quitting.


No, it's not about that at all.

I logged into XI the other night, and two of my old friends who still play were running Ambuscade. I immediately jumped in with them and we pumped out several runs. It didn't matter that their gear was much better (essentially making them higher level)


Actually, this does matter for Ambuscade. You mentioned some fights are "long and boring" and that's likely because your gear isn't as good as it could be or you're missing a lot of JP including the ability to equip Superior 1 & 2 gear. I get what you were saying in context but in current XI, this actually does matter most, but since you're with friend(s) they're not strict about it lol.

In actuality, it is the players holding this game back that Yoshi listens to more than anything. It's not a "good or bad thing", it's just, clearly when the dude outright says he won't change the formula and caused quite a lot of people to quit over the statement, I promise you someone will say:

"Well the game isn't for them"

or

"They were end-game/hardcore players"

Meaning people will easily blame the players when they don't like something about XIV and complain or quit, but not when the game stagnates because they may like the way it is and find things peachy.

Quote:
This is half true. The game became much more lowman friendly with the launch of Abyssea, back when the population was quite healthy. And even in XI's heyday, there were various events people could participate in (both large and small groups) without any need for statics.


While true, in XI's prime even during Abyssea/Voidwatch days, you more than likely had/were in/tried to join a linkshell dedicated specifically to events. There were pick ups for content (which is true with JP servers now on XIV) but they also usually had higher standards, ala "VW PIL looking for XYZ123 MUST HAVE RME90+" etc. So XIV does need "less rigid content" but it also needs more relevant progression content that isn't just "here you go" difficulty for groups.

In all honesty, I think the biggest problem is the extreme different cultures between JP and NA/EU, because on one side, you have people thinking you only need statics and the DF is designed to act like a mindless idiot in and on the other side, Statics are optional and the DF is only used when you actually know what you're doing so you don't waste people's time. (I mean do you know how the Japanese society is? They have even "less" time which is why their prime time is extremely late but is also why they tend to play the most efficiently.)

It wouldn't be so bad if yoshi didn't say "We won't change XIV's formula because it would be too big of a risk."

Didn't stop them from dropping content in patches, splitting up content because it would "overwhelm us" and quite frankly not care about the design because they know they'll have more than enough people happy to shell out money for nothing. I mean, the moogle mount on Mog station is $30.

People couldn't toss money at them any faster.

I think my biggest gripe is because they moved XIV to an "instanced base progression system" and not utilize it. It takes so little work to make instanced content in comparison to an MMO like XI where they have to take into consideration zone memory to do anything.



Edited, Jul 30th 2016 7:21am by Theonehio
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#38 Jul 30 2016 at 9:28 AM Rating: Excellent
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Is the population in XIV not high enough? The reason why there are more lowman friendly events is because the population of XI is smaller. It doesn't have anything to do with our busy schedules or our unwillingness to find a static group.


The population is fine, but also irrelevant.

FFXI had lowman-friendly content even before Abyssea. It has always been in the game. You could farm sky pops with six to 12 people. You could grab a few friends and do BCNM fights (even if those friends had never set foot in those fights). You could find a random group for assaults, again without fear of a first-timer dooming the entire effort. Or, you could be part of a larger linkshell and just come and go as you're able to.

Have an endgame linkshell that starts farming sky an hour before you get off work? Doesn't mean you get shut out of that content; just means you show up late. There's almost guaranteed to be room in one of the alliance parties, and it doesn't matter whether 12 or 24 people are there (or more, if you form a second alliance). And yes, even Abyssea had lowman groups at the very beginning -- it just became more popular later on.

FFXI has always had content that's friendly for both lowman groups and larger groups of variable sizes. That content gave us actual reasons to form groups.

FFXIV doesn't have that, and it's holding the game back. We have a robust FC system that encourages people to join groups of large and small sizes -- but then very little for those groups to actually do. And that's despite the fact that the new XIV was clearly redesigned more for casual players than hardcore players. It's a huge disconnect that I've questioned since the launch of ARR.

Hio wrote:
Actually, this does matter for Ambuscade. You mentioned some fights are "long and boring" and that's likely because your gear isn't as good as it could be or you're missing a lot of JP including the ability to equip Superior 1 & 2 gear. I get what you were saying in context but in current XI, this actually does matter most, but since you're with friend(s) they're not strict about it lol.


That's my point though. FFXI still beats XIV by having content that friends can jump into together with variably sized groups and still make real progress while also being challenged (if you want the greater risk/reward). FFXIV still doesn't have anything like that. It's what the game is missing more than anything.
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#39 Jul 30 2016 at 10:08 AM Rating: Default
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Indeed, that's why I enjoyed duoing content and NMs (even during Abyssea's prime) with my girlfriend because you normally had at least a group of 6 or an alliance normally taking it out. Yeah it takes awhile and due to lack of jobs (in Abyssea/VW) the drops may not always be worth it, but the fact you can actually do it is what I loved most about XI's setup.
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#40 Jul 30 2016 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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The Japanese attitude towards the game sounds awesome and much more in line with how I play these days. I'd transfer but I don't feel like communicating with emotes 99% of the time.
#41 Jul 30 2016 at 12:04 PM Rating: Default
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BrokenFox wrote:
The Japanese attitude towards the game sounds awesome and much more in line with how I play these days. I'd transfer but I don't feel like communicating with emotes 99% of the time.


It's a lot more structured in my experience lol. Kind of like you tend to have tanks on NA side no move because no one wants to MT or because you have 2 WAR and a DRK and of course the 2 WARs dont want to tank so you end up having a healer or DPS pull the boss to get things going and the tanks still don't get off their **** etc.

So while it's not perfect on the JP servers, when you play on both...you REALLY notice the difference.
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#42 Jul 30 2016 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
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It's almost as if players want a single player experience in an online game.

Here's my take. I don't mind partying up for stuff. What I do mind is when the inability to find a party (that works) translates to not being able to get anything done. When this happens enough over enough play sessions, the appeal to play begins to drop in favor of other games where entertainment is better guaranteed. And I know I'm not alone in this philosophy.

MMOs really need to take a second look at the party scene. If people are preferring solo play, they need to ask why. Accessibility? Pacing? Not getting yelled at by elitist ********* There's more to the equation, sure, but the whole model of just putting better loot at the other end of the stick is only proving to build frustration and resentment. The moment partying makes things harder instead of easier, and I'm not just talking about bulkier targets, something's going terribly wrong.
Quote:
They don't want to voice chat.

I don't. And the reasons why have been spoken on by myself numerous times here in the past. And it's not just an anti-social thing.
Quote:
They don't want large scale encounters

What you're seeing more of is people not wanting the hassle of setting up for said encounters. Zone Events in Rift pretty much taught me that dozens of people can come together for a singular cause without ever actually having to party up. The only requirement to participate was that you had to literally be online and in the zone to play. No, none of these encounters were the scripted song and dance you'd see of raids, but they didn't need to be for people to enjoy themselves. Was there room for making things more difficult? Absolutely, but it also needs to be done intelligently.
Quote:
I mean... the trust system is great and all, but I'm beyond the need to level so I rarely use it. Most of the time there are folks in LS who are more than happy to team up because, well it used to be the point.

We'll just kinda revisit my 3 rules of doing content:
1) Do it for personal progress.
2) Do it for the progress of friends.
3) Do it to kill time.

Again, they're not mutually exclusive, but everyone's going to have a varying point of disinterest per piece of content. Your shellmates helping you out doesn't exactly mean the game then/now was better. They could've simply been striving to escape boredom. Trusts have uses beyond leveling, as well. In fact, I'd argue they save dragging people into some of the more mundane objectives people might've had to slog through in XI where rewards were minimal, if not non-existent.

Really, it just goes back to partying having issues some aren't willing to acknowledge.
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#43 Jul 30 2016 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
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The problem is players, not partying. Even in what you described:

Quote:
What you're seeing more of is people not wanting the hassle of setting up for said encounters


^ Nothing to do with Partying.

Quote:
Zone Events in Rift pretty much taught me that dozens of people can come together for a singular cause without ever actually having to party up.


As per programming, you are partied up, which is why everyone gets rewarded. You may not get the pretty UI element of xyz being in your party but you're essentially in a zone wide party or else that style of content wouldn't function properly. Then comes the other side of the chipped coin, where you have "zone events/overworld encounters" where the loot and any exp and so on will go towards whoever lands the killshot, thus also leading to MPKing and so on.

Quote:
I'd argue they save dragging people into some of the more mundane objectives people might've had to slog through in XI where rewards were minimal, if not non-existent.


It actually helps when there's no one available to help you. However due to their pathing being coordinate based like monsters, they're not going to be all too useful for certain encounters where the monster may power up based on people hit or an aura that will literally disable them from doing anything compared to an actual player knowing how to maneuver or recover from that kind of situation.

So yeah trusts do indeed have the issue, but it has nothing to do with the 'state of partying.'
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#44 Jul 30 2016 at 9:00 PM Rating: Good
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The problem is players, not partying.


I would suggest that the players can never be the problem when it comes to how they're interacting with content. A game's players will do what they do. It's up to the devs to react to that. People not liking a particular kind of content? Why? You don't blame the players for playing the game just because they're not playing the game the way you think they should.

If the data show players don't want to participate in a particular kind of content, it's incumbent on the devs or the community team to figure out why that is. Maybe the rewards aren't good enough for the time or effort involved... maybe putting together a party of a particular size or managing that party is too difficult or frustrating for some reason... maybe your players really just want to erp all over your favorite towns and don't really care about the content at all. No matter what it is, it isn't the players' fault for playing the game.

Quote:
Then comes the other side of the chipped coin, where you have "zone events/overworld encounters" where the loot and any exp and so on will go towards whoever lands the killshot, thus also leading to MPKing and so on.


Are you still talking about Rift here? Because I don't remember Rift's zone events working like that. You racked up contribution similar to the way XIV handles FATEs (albeit not quite as obviously) and were rewarded at the end of the rift/invasion/zone event based on that contribution. I could easily be remembering wrong here, it's been a long time since I played Rift, but I have no memory of killing blows being a thing or MPKing being a popular pastime.
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#45 Jul 30 2016 at 9:00 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
FFXI has always had content that's friendly for both lowman groups and larger groups of variable sizes. That content gave us actual reasons to form groups.

XI had those many of those things because it was designed knowing that people couldn't race to 75. Abyssea wasn't really a playground until later in the life cycle of the content. If you were killing things while they were still new then you weren't doing it lowman. Sure people were farming the lesser NMs, but people weren't doing that for higher tier NMs out of the box.

Seriha wrote:
Quote:
They don't want to voice chat.
I don't. And the reasons why have been spoken on by myself numerous times here in the past. And it's not just an anti-social thing.

It's more an ease of use thing than an anti-social thing. Honestly it doesn't really matter why you or anyone else prefers not to use it. It's your choice, just realize that this choice removes a lot of what facilitates raiding. Being prepared, making sure everyone is on the same page and being able to quickly communicate if something doesn't go according to plan. Because there are many players who do use it, encounters are developed with it in mind.

I never considered logging into voice chat or posting a RSVP on a group's website to be a hassle. In all but 1 of the endgame groups I've been in, voice chat was a requirement. What bothers me the most about not using it is that you're likely not the leader of your group... why not just login and listen? Though it was mandatory to login for all but 1 of my endgame groups across various MMOs, it was never a requirement to speak unless you were raid lead.

I think what XIV can't capture that XI had going for it was community. It was much easier for me to find players like myself who were trying to create a group. I think we'd probably both be surprised by the number of players who have no idea where the entrance to an instance was in XIV simply because they'd never done anything outside of queue up. It really wasn't any different in WoW until players started using map mods.

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#46 Jul 31 2016 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
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Stuff like not knowing where entrances are is more the consequence of open world trivialization. Why go to some corner of a map if a quest marker never takes you there? We can't have long spawn HNMs for obvious reasons, but at the same time, basic mobs are pretty much guaranteed to never drop anything special. Really, some of the trends that have developed over time need to be let go. I know they may play parts in the grand scheme of how one may perceive what an MMO is or isn't, but some doors have simply been opened that can never be closed again.

If we're at the point where a game can only be deemed good if like 1 out of 10 people actually like it, and the reason the other 9 don't is because of some disparaging jargon, I'd say that speaks more of the 1 than the 9. Overall, gaming is a more acceptable hobby nowadays, which brings with it the reality the age range is far wider than the likely (college) student base of a decade ago. Yes, you still have some people who will play a given title 18+ hours a day. You're also gonna have some who can only play 1-2 hours a week. The former might not care so much about long queue times or the occasional failure, but the latter is more likely to be pickier in their own way, especially with a monthly fee involved. And it's not really a secret that I don't want these games to treat everyone who's not in the former category as second class citizens with lesser goals to chase and an overall smaller content pool. The expected repetition of MMOs is exactly what makes this a **** sandwich for a lot of players. Forget beating something once and being proud. You've gotta beat it dozens of times, if not more, before you can even dream of thinking you're done with "important" content. And it's exactly that kind of repetition and monotony that has bred so many bad behaviors over time that devs had to react to. Some successfully, some not so much.

But in the end, the 9 aren't intrinsically asking for games the 1 can't enjoy, themselves. Odds are its the prejudices of those 1s that are leaving them disgruntled. There's more than one way to play together, after all. Devs just haven't quite embraced that philosophy in earnest yet. Or maybe they've forgotten how to. It's hard to say.
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#47 Jul 31 2016 at 10:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Abyssea wasn't really a playground until later in the life cycle of the content. If you were killing things while they were still new then you weren't doing it lowman. Sure people were farming the lesser NMs, but people weren't doing that for higher tier NMs out of the box.


And this is exactly the kind of content FFXIV needs more of. We need more inclusive content that both small and large groups can enjoy, where people don't need to worry about finding statics for hours upon hours of practice just to get to the point of having a shot at an RNG drop.

Just as important as lowman content is the need for large-scale content where the same principles hold true to groups of larger sizes. Sky, sea, dynamis and einherjar are all examples of XI content where first-timers could jump right in and contribute, and groups didn't have to be ultra-specific sizes.

The lack of this kind of content in XI is holding the game back.

Seriha wrote:
If we're at the point where a game can only be deemed good if like 1 out of 10 people actually like it, and the reason the other 9 don't is because of some disparaging jargon, I'd say that speaks more of the 1 than the 9. Overall, gaming is a more acceptable hobby nowadays, which brings with it the reality the age range is far wider than the likely (college) student base of a decade ago. Yes, you still have some people who will play a given title 18+ hours a day. You're also gonna have some who can only play 1-2 hours a week.


Yes, great point about gaming being more of an acceptable hobby nowadays. And the implications from aging are obvious. Back in 2004, the average MMORPG gamer was approximately 26 years old, according to studies at the time -- but that has likely changed significantly since then.

This year, a report by the Entertainment Software Association revealed this: "The average age of someone who plays games (not specifying MMOs, but I'm sure the correlation is close) is 31 years old. In fact, more gamers are over the age of 36 than between the ages of 18 to 35 or under the age of 18. They are also mostly men, but by a slimming margin. Men make up 52 percent. From 2012 to 2013, the number of women gamers over the age of 50 grew by 32 percent."

This is exactly why the lack of more inclusive content is holding FFXIV back.

Life after 30 is just tremendously different than life before 30. And while some 30+ adults haven't changed their priorities (which is totally fine), adults whose priorities do change over time can't (and shouldn't) be blamed. For many, playing video games just isn't as important as getting enough sleep, taking more time to cook healthy meals, going on runs, hitting the gym, doing contract work, hanging out with friends, making time for family, cleaning the house, working in the yard, etc. Even an adult who doesn't have barrels of other obligations may simply realize that spending so much time in a virtual world isn't exactly healthy.

And beyond the age of 35, there are more adults like me than there are adults who want to live in their games.

Don't blame game developers for designing games with those adults in mind. FFXIV was mostly designed exactly for that crowd. In the leadup to ARR, Yoshi-P talked extensively about how the game was redesigned for busier gamers who could enjoy the game in their pockets of free time. For the most part, he accomplished that goal -- right up until endgame, and then he fell a bit short.



Edited, Jul 31st 2016 9:59am by Thayos
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#48 Aug 01 2016 at 3:42 AM Rating: Good
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It is funny how these threads always turn into the exact same discussion every single time. Pretty sure we all "know" each others opinions well enough that we could write each others posts instead of our own at this point lol.

Anyway, I am curious Thayos what do you consider endgame in XIV? You say Yoshi managed to make a game for people who don't play a lot up until endgame, but personally I am not sure what you mean when you say endgame. Is it all the things you do at max level, or is it specific things at max level or something else?
#49 Aug 01 2016 at 6:54 AM Rating: Excellent
I consider end game to be progression oriented content that requires a measure of work and cooperation. I don't consider quick grind dungeons or face roll raids to be endgame.
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#50 Aug 01 2016 at 7:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd simplify more to progression you undertake once EXP no longer matters. Merit systems a slight exception, depending on grind factor. Though I've always felt "endgame" is a misnomer in MMOs.

Edited, Aug 1st 2016 10:00am by Seriha
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#51 Aug 01 2016 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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60 dungeons/raids pretty much

You're right about it being a misnomer in MMOs, and in XIV especially. Endgame implies the very highest, or the very final thing you could do, which would be Savage. But I see that more like.. Bonus endgame in this case. Kinda like the Dark Aeons or Ruby WEAPON.
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