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#52 Aug 01 2016 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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This is not what I thought this thread would turn into.
Anyway.
For me FFXIV the world does not feel real and in a mmo it does need to feel real.
Pretty impossible to get killed, nothing really goes on, everything is on a rubber band. Having everything in the game instance just does not feel right. Lots of people play the game but they all seem bored of the instances.

There is so much content pouring out but it is always the same. When cool content is added like housing it is pretty much useless and seems like that may never change. Subdivisions are completely dead.

The game does allot right. It is easy to pick up. It has a very easy to use control and interface. SE stories and cut-scenes are great. Mission are pretty straight forward and easy to follow. Crafting is actually fun and this is the first MMO where I could say that.

I had so much fun with this game 0-50. Then WP AK runs hit and that stunk. I was getting on every night just to do this. Then the game did not change since then and is exactly the same. Think about it not much has changed. I get on to run the last 3 dungeons over and over it has not changed since endgame started. I liked coil and thought hey this is what the game needs till we hit turn 5.

I like the raids but it is only a distraction really, it gear is not the best but is nice filler gear but again it is over and over. This game does not lack content it lack original content.

When I left FFXI for this game I did not want it to be FFXI exactly. I wanted a game that took up less time. I hated WOW so I did not want this game to be that. Anyway the game felt really cool for a while.

You know I love spending time to get something too.. I like having hard to get items like the original relic was even thought that was stupid and was not much better than other gear, then they take it away.. If I am going to spend time grinding I want something that is worth grinding for and I do not wan it outdated in a patch or two. I think that is the biggest short coming in this, nothing in this game is worth grinding or working for. I mean there are allot of people that just come back for patches and why is that? Tesee and I pretty much have become that with FFXIV. We come back to keep up so if we ever comeback we are not to far behind. That is what our problem is there is not much to fill in the time inbetween, they hand you gear pretty much. That is the problem for Me and Tesee the meat is not there. What do we do for those weeks inbetween patches and there is nothing to do but run the same dungeons over and over for worthless gear. You need a reason to play the game other than just story, if you want story just play a RPG and not a MMO.

You know last night we were listing things we wanted to do in FFXI and FFXIV.
FFXIV
Open last dungeon and open deep dungeon.
(We are not even looking forward to running them)
Finish melding crafting set (Melding stinks too when you get 30 breaks and again not looking forward to it)

FFXI
I want my Lu Shang's rod.
(There is nothing like this in FFXIV and there should be. This would give people something to do in between patches)
We want to finish the fishing quest up.
I need to finish sky the last fight.
The last fight in Rhapsodies
Finish seekers of Adoulin.
Finish AF gear and relic gear. (Again this what they need to fill in the time. All gear set in FFXI are still up gradable to be useful in this game)
Continue monster raising.
Do the quest for new mounts.
Collect more Trust
The list goes on.



For us we probably be best to play both games because we have the time but it cost to much with mules and retainers.






Edited, Aug 1st 2016 11:18am by Nashred
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#53 Aug 01 2016 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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I added allot to the above. I didn't want to start a new post.
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#54 Aug 01 2016 at 9:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I have to wonder why you're still playing FFXIV at all, Nash... it will never be the game you want it to be. It's ok to not play a game you don't enjoy.

I'm not going to go through and address all of that up there, but suffice it to say that FFXIV doesn't seem to be the kind of game you want to play.. so why are you playing it?

I don't want this to sound like "if you don't like it, leave" because it's not that. But you've spent like 3 years now playing this game and not enjoying the vast majority of it... at some point it has to be ok to just accept that it'll never be what you're looking for and move on.
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#55 Aug 01 2016 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
I have to wonder why you're still playing FFXIV at all, Nash... it will never be the game you want it to be. It's ok to not play a game you don't enjoy.

I'm not going to go through and address all of that up there, but suffice it to say that FFXIV doesn't seem to be the kind of game you want to play.. so why are you playing it?

I don't want this to sound like "if you don't like it, leave" because it's not that. But you've spent like 3 years now playing this game and not enjoying the vast majority of it... at some point it has to be ok to just accept that it'll never be what you're looking for and move on.


I do not know why sometimes too..

I actually enjoy allot of the game and It really is the only thing out there. I listed above allot I like. I like the main story allot and for a while loved crafting but again crafting is kind of useless with all the cheap pretty much free gear out there.

I just want something new in the game to do. I like the dungeons and the raids even though they could have a little more variety, What I do not like is having to run them over and over for no rewards.

I also am hoping maybe it will change eventually.
FFXI is not enough to fill the void to much either anymore and honestly it has become more like FFXIV than people want to admit but it still has something we want to do.

I think FFXIV may change eventually, I think it has too.. Problem with a game were people comeback for patches is they eventually stop. If FFXIV is a long term game eventually they will have to add some engaging content or people will quit.

Maybe you are right and the game is not for us. We came close to stopping our subscription a little while ago.

I think for us is we will eventually play both. We will use FFXI as fill in for what FFXIV is missing,.
We will unsubscribe from FFXIV in between patches except Tesee main character too keep her house.

I just do not get how you love a game from 0-50 and end game is so boring.


Thayos wrote:
I consider end game to be progression oriented content that requires a measure of work and cooperation. I don't consider quick grind dungeons or face roll raids to be endgame.


agreed.







Edited, Aug 1st 2016 11:47am by Nashred

Edited, Aug 1st 2016 11:50am by Nashred
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#56 Aug 01 2016 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I just do not get how you love a game from 0-50 and end game is so boring.


Actually that's exactly what happened with SWTOR for me.

I loved the class stories, they were superb. Then the endgame was just kinda ... meh. So I subscribed to that game for about 2 months leveling characters up and enjoying the **** out of the stories and then I was done.

Quote:
I think FFXIV may change eventually, I think it has too..


While the structure of the content may one day change, the nature of it won't. There will always be something to grind for an eventual reward. That's just how MMOs and other long-term games work. MMOs function on repetition... a lot of repetition. It's the nature of the beast and it has been for 20 years.
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#57 Aug 01 2016 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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Belcrono wrote:
It is funny how these threads always turn into the exact same discussion every single time. Pretty sure we all "know" each others opinions well enough that we could write each others posts instead of our own at this point lol.

Ha ha, seriously. That's part of why I've stayed out of this one. There's nothing I could say here that I haven't already said a hundred times in other threads.
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#58 Aug 01 2016 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
I have to wonder why you're still playing FFXIV at all, Nash... it will never be the game you want it to be. It's ok to not play a game you don't enjoy.

I'm not going to go through and address all of that up there, but suffice it to say that FFXIV doesn't seem to be the kind of game you want to play.. so why are you playing it?

I don't want this to sound like "if you don't like it, leave" because it's not that. But you've spent like 3 years now playing this game and not enjoying the vast majority of it... at some point it has to be ok to just accept that it'll never be what you're looking for and move on.

It's kind of like being a fan of a hardcore movie or band. If you have come to expect Heavy metal from Metallica for 12 years and they play Pop on one album, you hope they go back to the previous.

Nashred wrote:

I do not know why sometimes too..

I actually enjoy allot of the game and It really is the only thing out there. I listed above allot I like. I like the main story allot and for a while loved crafting but again crafting is kind of useless with all the cheap pretty much free gear out there.

I just want something new in the game to do. I like the dungeons and the raids even though they could have a little more variety, What I do not like is having to run them over and over for no rewards.

I also am hoping maybe it will change eventually.
FFXI is not enough to fill the void to much either anymore and honestly it has become more like FFXIV than people want to admit but it still has something we want to do.

I think FFXIV may change eventually, I think it has too.. Problem with a game were people comeback for patches is they eventually stop. If FFXIV is a long term game eventually they will have to add some engaging content or people will quit.

Maybe you are right and the game is not for us. We came close to stopping our subscription a little while ago.

I think for us is we will eventually play both. We will use FFXI as fill in for what FFXIV is missing,.
We will unsubscribe from FFXIV in between patches except Tesee main character too keep her house.

I just do not get how you love a game from 0-50 and end game is so boring.

People always come back unless they hate a game completely or don't care for it at all. Even I can come back so often and I think the combat and ilevel system is the most horrid things in the industry. I absolutely detest that no concept of a skill chain system, gw2 combo system, ESO synergy system, LOTR fellowship maneuver system has made it's way into the game.

Thayos wrote:
I consider end game to be progression oriented content that requires a measure of work and cooperation. I don't consider quick grind dungeons or face roll raids to be endgame.


I consider endgame to be progression to keep the game from ending, perpetual long term progression. A game that uses dailies and short life gear cycles to keep me there fails. When I think of longterm, I think of 9 month-1.5 year gear cycles, ESO champion like systems, merit point systems, adventure zones like FFXI Abyssea or ESO Craglorn, Open World Dungeons like Sky and Sea, areas with short term goals and long term goals. The key is flexible grouping and persistent goals.


#59 Aug 01 2016 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I just do not get how you love a game from 0-50 and end game is so boring.


Guild Wars 2 for me.
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#60 Aug 01 2016 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
I just do not get how you love a game from 0-50 and end game is so boring.


Actually that's exactly what happened with SWTOR for me.

I loved the class stories, they were superb. Then the endgame was just kinda ... meh. So I subscribed to that game for about 2 months leveling characters up and enjoying the **** out of the stories and then I was done.

Quote:
I think FFXIV may change eventually, I think it has too..


While the structure of the content may one day change, the nature of it won't. There will always be something to grind for an eventual reward. That's just how MMOs and other long-term games work. MMOs function on repetition... a lot of repetition. It's the nature of the beast and it has been for 20 years.


I do not mind grind, I played FFXI for a long time and Tesee longer than me so I understand grind. I just want a reward for the grind that is not outdated in a month.
I appreciate your input too, everyone has been pretty civil.

I just am having a hard time deciding what to do.. If we did not need another computer for FFXI it would not be a issue or if the game was less to play then again if we were completely happy with FFXIV it would not be a issue. Playing ESO you do realise how much good is in FFXIV.
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#61 Aug 01 2016 at 10:37 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I do not mind grind, I played FFXI for a long time and Tesee longer than me so I understand grind. I just want a reward for the grind that is not outdated in a month.


This will always be FFXIV. However, to be fair, rewards you get in XIV are valid for much longer than one month, especially if you're not doing savage-level raids or the newest extreme primals. One set of gear can last for six months or more, depending on what you're actually doing in the game.

That doesn't solve the problem though of casual/midcore players not having real endgame content to participate in.
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#62 Aug 01 2016 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
I just do not get how you love a game from 0-50 and end game is so boring.


Actually that's exactly what happened with SWTOR for me.

I loved the class stories, they were superb. Then the endgame was just kinda ... meh. So I subscribed to that game for about 2 months leveling characters up and enjoying the **** out of the stories and then I was done.


While the structure of the content may one day change, the nature of it won't. There will always be something to grind for an eventual reward. That's just how MMOs and other long-term games work. MMOs function on repetition... a lot of repetition. It's the nature of the beast and it has been for 20 years.

Swtor. In my opinion, the best class stories of all time if you like on rail story, 50 hours worth per character on 8 classes. ESO feels way more realistic on one initial character with open quest, better quest, but less variety per playthrough.

I agree on repetition and the nature. Something has to be there to keep people subscribed. And I have yet to see any mmo create enough reasons to stay subscribed due to content unless the content is heavily gated or pinned down in exuberant amounts of slow progress.
#63 Aug 01 2016 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
I do not mind grind, I played FFXI for a long time and Tesee longer than me so I understand grind. I just want a reward for the grind that is not outdated in a month.


This will always be FFXIV. However, to be fair, rewards you get in XIV are valid for much longer than one month, especially if you're not doing savage-level raids or the newest extreme primals. One set of gear can last for six months or more, depending on what you're actually doing in the game.

That doesn't solve the problem though of casual/midcore players not having real endgame content to participate in.


While equipment is valid that long I do agree with that, It is not what I meant.
Gear pretty much every month is replaced by better gear and not just one piece all of it.
Why grind if by the time you get it it no longer is the best gear.
Problem with the highest level content is by the time you beat it there is gear that someone running the same easy dungeon 30 times gets ahead of you.
I remember coil and focusing on that. People that do that should have the highest gear and for a very long time. If you can do that content fast enough it might be the highest for about 2 months.
So what happens in this game? Allot just runs duty roulette and it has been that way since 50 for gear or they run raids for fill in gear.

I am talking gear like the torques in FFXI which are still good, Blackbelt..
Relics and AF gears.

Edited, Aug 1st 2016 1:07pm by Nashred
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#64 Aug 01 2016 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Swtor. In my opinion, the best class stories of all time if you like on rail story, 50 hours worth per character on 8 classes. ESO feels way more realistic on one initial character with open quest, better quest, but less variety per playthrough.


I've tried a couple of times with ESO and I can see what you're saying with the story being cool (it really is) but I hate the gameplay so... yeah...

Quote:
While equipment is valid that long I do agree with that, It is not what I meant.
Gear pretty much every month is replaced by better gear and not just one piece all of it.
Why grind if by the time you get it it no longer is the best gear.


There can be a valid complaint here without the hyperbole. High end gear stays that way for 6-8 months depending on content release scheduling. Even when it's "obsolete" though, it's still every bit as good as it was, there's just something better available. What do you think people farm for the best gear with? They farm with the gear that used to be the best and is now "obsolete." Can't be THAT bad if it still kills bosses.

Quote:
I am talking gear like the torques in FFXI which are still good, Blackbelt..
Relics and AF gears.


Vertical games don't work like that. The idea is that you're always moving forward, not farming content from 10 years ago because it's still somehow your best in slot. Horizontal progression is valid when that's the game... but that isn't FFXIV.
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#65 Aug 01 2016 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Vertical games don't work like that. The idea is that you're always moving forward, not farming content from 10 years ago because it's still somehow your best in slot. Horizontal progression is valid when that's the game... but that isn't FFXIV.


But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.
I would rather work my but off or do the hardest content for gear that is the best for a long time..
That will probably never change in this game either.


Edited, Aug 1st 2016 1:19pm by Nashred
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#66 Aug 01 2016 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.
I would rather work my but off or do the hardest content for gear that is the best for a long time..
That will probably never change in this game either.


Which brings me back to things about this game that aren't ever going to be what you're looking for.
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#67 Aug 01 2016 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.


Boom, there is your answer.

FFXIV is a vertical-progression game. This is NEVER going to change.

The development team is definitely experimenting with new types of content to diversify the grind, and I expect we'll see more systems added with the 4.0 expansion, but the vertical nature of this game will never change.

And thus, your feelings will never change.

You will never like this game unless you learn to appreciate the benefits of vertical progression.
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#68 Aug 01 2016 at 11:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.


Boom, there is your answer.

FFXIV is a vertical-progression game. This is NEVER going to change.

The development team is definitely experimenting with new types of content to diversify the grind, and I expect we'll see more systems added with the 4.0 expansion, but the vertical nature of this game will never change.

And thus, your feelings will never change.

You will never like this game unless you learn to appreciate the benefits of vertical progression.


That's what drove me away from the game eventually--I hung on for as long as I could, hoping to make peace with it. And having wonderful friends from XI that moved over to form a FC helped a lot, because at least it was fun to talk to them. But when they started leaving and I started looking at how my gear would be replaced every few months I just couldn't take it, I despise that system. That and the combat change was by far the hardest things to accept coming from 1.23 for me, and it's probably why, to use the analogy someone did a bit ago, I kept hoping they'd get away from "pop" and go back to the heavy metal I signed up for originally. Eventually I simply realized the game was not for me, not in the way that XI or 1.23 were.
#69 Aug 01 2016 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
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And of course after my previous post I'm going to chime in with my normal shtick anyway. I should really know better by now...


Horizontal progression only worked in FFXI because of gear swapping. Having ten different ways to get twenty different belts worked because you could actually use all of those belts at the same time and it was worth it to collect them all. In any other game you'd pick the best one and that would be it.

There's also the boredom and burnout aspect. I have crazy nostalgia for FFXI just like everyone else but I can be objective enough to admit that it was often really boring. Sky, dynamis, etc, were all valid endgame for YEARS. Even as more events were added over time people still ran dynamis and killed Byakko. At some point it's OK to let old content die in favor of the new.
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#70 Aug 01 2016 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
I just do not get how you love a game from 0-50 and end game is so boring.


Actually that's exactly what happened with SWTOR for me.

I loved the class stories, they were superb. Then the endgame was just kinda ... meh. So I subscribed to that game for about 2 months leveling characters up and enjoying the **** out of the stories and then I was done.


That's what happened to most people and it's why the game crashed as hard as it did.

I'm still salty about how it all turned out for SWTOR. Probably the game I looked forward to the most, ever.
#71 Aug 01 2016 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.


Boom, there is your answer.

FFXIV is a vertical-progression game. This is NEVER going to change.

The development team is definitely experimenting with new types of content to diversify the grind, and I expect we'll see more systems added with the 4.0 expansion, but the vertical nature of this game will never change.

And thus, your feelings will never change.

You will never like this game unless you learn to appreciate the benefits of vertical progression.

Which is?

Vertical Progression Pros/Con
Constant new gear grinds to stay meta.
Gear tiers being surpassed and recycled every few months.
No True Cross Classing only trees.
Content becoming obsolete unless higher rewards are given in lower content
Content becoming obsolete unless content is scaled
Never far behind meta as long as you play every now and then
Interesting stats can be on gear depending on how strict party play is

Horizontal Progression Pros/Cons
Less Constant Gear grinds to stay meta
Less new rewards since surpassing and recycling happens less often
Big Cross Classing but often most are illusion of choice
Content remains relevant longer due to high range and slow progress
Content becomes relevant longer because the max level and ceiling doesn't raise much
Always far behind the meta unless you play for long durations
Interesting stats are on gear because the gear has to progress sideways rather than a flat increase overall[/ul]

It took me awhile to see, but XIV definitely is not moving from Vertical progress due to the rise of casual mmo gaming, strict reliance on groups, and probably a hundred other reasons I didn't list.

If Horizontal progression is what you wish from XIV Nashred, I wouldn't hold my breath. Most mmos build towards the vacationer nowdays because that is where all the money is. There are a few that still build toward the residents. The nature won't change much, that's like asking the sun to shower water instead of sunlight.


#72 Aug 01 2016 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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It doesn't actually matter whether or not vertical or horizontal progression is better or worse than the other. What matters is, if you heavily prefer one of them over the other, you need to look at which one the game you're playing is designed with. Expecting a game to radically shift its entire progression system just because you think it should is ridiculous.

Quote:
No True Cross Classing only trees.


Btw while this is a totally valid complaint about FFXIV that I completely agree with, it actually has nothing whatsoever to do with the vertical progression system.
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#73 Aug 01 2016 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.


Boom, there is your answer.

FFXIV is a vertical-progression game. This is NEVER going to change.

The development team is definitely experimenting with new types of content to diversify the grind, and I expect we'll see more systems added with the 4.0 expansion, but the vertical nature of this game will never change.

And thus, your feelings will never change.

You will never like this game unless you learn to appreciate the benefits of vertical progression.


Defiantly a big part of it. I hoped they would come out with a better way instead of just running the last 3 dungeons to get better gear as the best way. Why not have up-gradable gear?
For a while crafting was cool when they had Supra and lucis. That equipment I liked it was hard to get and made a difference for crafting and was clearly the best for its time. Then they came out with quest-able gear that was better and made it feel like a complete waste of time doing the lucis. Now they have tomes gear for crafting too.. You do not have to be a good at crafting to get it either. Hard to handle.. I think that is what stinks a poor player can have as good gear than a hardcore or good player.

I could live with one flaw if there was content worth doing. I just do not see how vertical can work for long. People need rewards for doing the grind. I mean if I am going to spend hour upon hour doing something and I want it to be worth it. I do not want some crap level 1 piece of glamour gear.

I do not think anyone is going to like a game 100. I didn't always like FFXI.

Edited, Aug 1st 2016 2:24pm by Nashred
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#74 Aug 01 2016 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
It doesn't actually matter whether or not vertical or horizontal progression is better or worse than the other. What matters is, if you heavily prefer one of them over the other, you need to look at which one the game you're playing is designed with. Expecting a game to radically shift its entire progression system just because you think it should is ridiculous.

Quote:
No True Cross Classing only trees.


Btw while this is a totally valid complaint about FFXIV that I completely agree with, it actually has nothing whatsoever to do with the vertical progression system.

I see it the same.

If I can't go sideways and grow my character beyond one role and one spec, or customize current skills or traits or utilize different stats on gear to perform differently in content, then that to me is what I consider going upwards or vertical.

Where as in FFXI, I can go go sideways and grow my character beyond one role and one spec with subjobs, I can customize my skills or traits with free cross class, and I can customize my builds on gear to perform differently in various content.

This is why I love Elder Scrolls Online Vanilla. I can pick a class,morph my skills, pick a weapon, pick an attribute, level my champion points, put different traits on gear with crafting, armor and weapons have their own traits, race adds even more sideways variety, unlocking guilds adds more customization.

You say you don't like the combat. I absolutely adore it. It is an mmo version of Dark Souls with it's maneuver finesse system. Synergy provides a skillchain type system yet is more simplified and more boring than Renkai. NO GCD, the one thing I despise most in XIV. GCD dictates what skills you use and what order.
My problem with ESO is I notice it is starting to lose some of it's Horizontal magic with imbalance and performance issues.

I still like XIV alot. Because while not as grandiose as I would like. Most of the systems work so fugging fluid and with good performance.
#75 Aug 01 2016 at 12:36 PM Rating: Excellent
Some benefits of vertical progression, off the top of my head:

- No need to spend months/years grinding for single pieces of gear.
- When gear becomes "obsolete" after six months or longer, then it doesn't really matter because you didn't spent months grinding for it to begin with.
- Easier to get a full set of gear suitable for endgame.
- Constant influx of new content... no running the same content/instances for years on end (hello, sky/dynamis).

There are other benefits, but those are the big ones for me.

That said, I can easily see how those benefits can be turned into negatives by people who favor horizontal progression. But these are certainly benefits for people who like vertical games.
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#76 Aug 01 2016 at 12:36 PM Rating: Decent
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The cross class system in XIV needs to be eradicated completely and Jobs just given their own versions of the abilities (WAR and DRK getting their own Provoke, etc)

It's a relic from 1.0 that was never fully fleshed out. Shouldn't be in the game at this point.
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