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#77 Aug 01 2016 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
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But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.


Boom, there is your answer.

FFXIV is a vertical-progression game. This is NEVER going to change.

The development team is definitely experimenting with new types of content to diversify the grind, and I expect we'll see more systems added with the 4.0 expansion, but the vertical nature of this game will never change.

And thus, your feelings will never change.

You will never like this game unless you learn to appreciate the benefits of vertical progression.


Though, they could do Vertical progression better. The problem is, the VP that XIV uses is shoddy and sadly Yoshida said flatout recently that it won't change due to being too risky to change it. He's scared of xyz (usually player/job inclusion) but every content, casual or otherwise, is designed with exclusion in mind unless the content is handholdingly easy.
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#78 Aug 01 2016 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.


Boom, there is your answer.

FFXIV is a vertical-progression game. This is NEVER going to change.

The development team is definitely experimenting with new types of content to diversify the grind, and I expect we'll see more systems added with the 4.0 expansion, but the vertical nature of this game will never change.

And thus, your feelings will never change.

You will never like this game unless you learn to appreciate the benefits of vertical progression.


Though, they could do Vertical progression better. The problem is, the VP that XIV uses is shoddy and sadly Yoshida said flatout recently that it won't change due to being too risky to change it. He's scared of xyz (usually player/job inclusion) but every content, casual or otherwise, is designed with exclusion in mind unless the content is handholdingly easy.

Except for me XIV instance are harder than XI. I feel like the harder XIV instances are on par with CoP difficulty pre nerf.I suck at reflex based things and the endgame revolves mostly around pounding keys while dodging stuff, versus more of "You can overcome stuff with your brains and less people by paying attention to the battle and environment, counters for each sequence,"

I care more about open world and deeper progression more so than just difficulty. As long as I have to think about more than time to move out of the way or toggle this thingy/switch in environment.





Edited, Aug 1st 2016 2:52pm by sandpark
#79 Aug 01 2016 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
The cross class system in XIV needs to be eradicated completely and Jobs just given their own versions of the abilities (WAR and DRK getting their own Provoke, etc)

It's a relic from 1.0 that was never fully fleshed out. Shouldn't be in the game at this point.


I agree. If it isn't something they can do well, they need to stop doing it. FFXI's job system blows it away, as does FFV's and FFT's. It's patently obvious that they either can't or don't want to fix the implementation of this system, so it really should go. It's holding them back at this point as far as developing new and interesting jobs goes.

Every physical dps needs to be able to cross class lancer for Invigorate....
Every healer has to be able to cross class conjurer for protect...
Every tank has to be able to cross class gladiator for provoke...

These are artificial limitations on the system that don't need to exist. Give the physical dps jobs unique methods for regaining TP... give the healers equivalent spells to protect... give the tanks their own versions of provoke. Permanently shackling all future jobs to this system is terrible and needs to stop.
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#80 Aug 01 2016 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.


Boom, there is your answer.

FFXIV is a vertical-progression game. This is NEVER going to change.

The development team is definitely experimenting with new types of content to diversify the grind, and I expect we'll see more systems added with the 4.0 expansion, but the vertical nature of this game will never change.

And thus, your feelings will never change.

You will never like this game unless you learn to appreciate the benefits of vertical progression.


Though, they could do Vertical progression better. The problem is, the VP that XIV uses is shoddy and sadly Yoshida said flatout recently that it won't change due to being too risky to change it. He's scared of xyz (usually player/job inclusion) but every content, casual or otherwise, is designed with exclusion in mind unless the content is handholdingly easy.


Yoshida deserves a ton of credit for turning this ship around but I really wish they'd bring in some new blood to shake things up a bit, but I'm sure the guys in suits in are equally to blame.
#81 Aug 01 2016 at 1:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yoshida deserves a ton of credit for turning this ship around but I really wish they'd bring in some new blood to shake things up a bit, but I'm sure the guys in suits in are equally to blame.


Was anyone from XI's dev team brought over to the XIV team after the end of significant XI development?

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#82 Aug 01 2016 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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@ Thayos

I know for sure Komoto was.
#83 Aug 01 2016 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Yoshida deserves a ton of credit for turning this ship around but I really wish they'd bring in some new blood to shake things up a bit, but I'm sure the guys in suits in are equally to blame.


Was anyone from XI's dev team brought over to the XIV team after the end of significant XI development?



They've all been on it except for the obvious few (Matsui in particular.) Since looking at credits, the few that still work on XI also work on XIV but given the contrast, I think it still comes down to them not really being "allowed" to do much more.

Honestly, they said they were giving Yoshi the freedom he needs (and he's even said it at one point during 2.0 interviews) so the suits definitely are to blame (president said for XIV to basically be the focus on making them money in simple terms on the last report) but yoshi has far more control than Tanaka or Matsui ever had.
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#84 Aug 01 2016 at 4:10 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
And this is exactly the kind of content FFXIV needs more of. We need more inclusive content that both small and large groups can enjoy, where people don't need to worry about finding statics for hours upon hours of practice just to get to the point of having a shot at an RNG drop.


Even in WoW where raids are actually decently programmed to scale to group size, the 'sweetspot' raid size for heroic dungeons(WoW's version of midcore) was 9 players. 2 tanks, 3 healers and 4 or 5 DPS. It was like this mostly because it struck the balance between content difficulty and organizing the actual group. Encounters generally tended to get easier as group size increased, but it was like that more because of in-combat raises, encounters being possible with dead players and other things of this sort.

I dunno. Maybe I'm just a ****, but I had no problem removing players from groups if they weren't at least making notable progress in understanding encounter mechanics. To be fair, most of these are the same things we saw leveling up just in larger scale, more frequently and dealing more damage.

I just don't see smaller group content with the same difficulty coming to XIV unless Yoshi decides to rip challenge modes from WoW or something like that. Even then, that mode in WoW required raid level gear to clear with any consistency so you'd have to be raiding anyway...
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#85 Aug 01 2016 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
the 'sweetspot' raid size for heroic dungeons(WoW's version of midcore) was 9 players. 2 tanks, 3 healers and 4 or 5 DPS.


Minimum raid size in WoW has been 10 players for about 10 years now. And actually 10-man raiding is one of the more difficult things you can attempt because of the limited resources you're able to bring to any given encounter. In general the more players you have, the easier the encounter gets because the margin of individual player error goes up the more of you there are.

Mythic raiding (the top-end hardcore version of raiding that eats your pets) is set at a hard 20 players.

Quote:
Even then, that mode in WoW required raid level gear to clear with any consistency so you'd have to be raiding anyway...


Actually challenge modes cap your item level to about heroic 5-man levels. So no matter how decked out you are in unimaginable power, your item level is basically what a fresh max level character has after a couple days of dungeons. And then they give you a stopwatch and say go.
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#86 Aug 02 2016 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
But that is what I like, I do not like the vertical progression.


Boom, there is your answer.

FFXIV is a vertical-progression game. This is NEVER going to change.

The development team is definitely experimenting with new types of content to diversify the grind, and I expect we'll see more systems added with the 4.0 expansion, but the vertical nature of this game will never change.

And thus, your feelings will never change.

You will never like this game unless you learn to appreciate the benefits of vertical progression.


Though, they could do Vertical progression better. The problem is, the VP that XIV uses is shoddy and sadly Yoshida said flatout recently that it won't change due to being too risky to change it. He's scared of xyz (usually player/job inclusion) but every content, casual or otherwise, is designed with exclusion in mind unless the content is handholdingly easy.


Yoshida deserves a ton of credit for turning this ship around but I really wish they'd bring in some new blood to shake things up a bit, but I'm sure the guys in suits in are equally to blame.



I agree with this...
No doubt he turned the game around.
I just wonder if he has the resources to actually do more. You can have all the freedom in the world but if you do not have the resources what can you do.
I sometimes feel like they do not believe the game is successful themselves.
But I think they have a formula that works for now and are also afraid to change it, or better yet just add to it.
To me is they have change something or people will eventually get bored.


You know Tesee and I were talking about things last night..
You know the rewards in this game are so bad. You finished Heavensward and what did you get? A level 1 gear, a minion and some gill... A whole expansion you paid 60.00 for and that is the reward for finishing the whole expansion?

We are going to go to FFXI but still Comeback for the patches, probably not every patch it only takes a few days to do them anyway so we can do a few at a time.



Edited, Aug 2nd 2016 11:29am by Nashred
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#87 Aug 02 2016 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:


- Constant influx of new content... no running the same content/instances for years on end (hello, sky/dynamis).

That said, I can easily see how those benefits can be turned into negatives by people who favor horizontal progression. But these are certainly benefits for people who like vertical games.


I think a good example of that would be that there is more room for new types of content to be developed in a game with horizontal progression. In a vertical system you have to replace everything every few months. XIV is a good example of that as they have these big patches that they put a lot of effort into, but for the most part it isn't actually new content, it is just a new skin on the same content. Two new dungeons and/or a remake of an old dungeon, all of which have the exact same straight layout with three bosses, a raid either 8-man or 24-man depending on which patch, a bit of story and a primal with a few different difficulties. Every now and then you get a new type of content, like Diadem or w/e, but that isn't actually content that stays relevant unless they keep updating it and since they can't update too many things all the time it is hard to make it have much use for more than a couple of weeks. Also on top of this, you do still have to do old content to get roulette done.

Comparing that to a horizontal system like XI you keep on building on everything which gives you a lot more freedom to build on and develop new types of content.

Like you said I have negatives for every positive you listed and more, but that is how everything is. We all like different things after all.

Anyway, Karlina mentioned that horizontal progression worked so well in XI because of gear swapping and I agree, but I do think there was one other thing that also played a large role. The very thing that Thayos mentioned earlier about content being a lot more flexible in how you could approach it. You could do Dynamis with ten people if you wanted to and it had its perks, but you could also go in with 64(?) people if you wanted to. The same thing applied to a lot of the content to an extent at least and for the most part there were pros and cons to each way like one being faster but you have to split the loot vs slower killing but less people to split loot with etc.

The reason this was so important in my opinion (in regards to horizontal progression) is that people often talk about how it is so much easier to come back and catch up in vertical progression games, but for me that has never been true in the sense that I don't "need" to catch up in a horizontal system. And that isn't because of how horizontal progression itself works, but how most horizontal games I've seen work. In XI I always have things to work for at my own pace when coming back, but I could always participate in endgame even when I didn't have the best gear available. Why? Because for the most part I was just an extra helping hand and not a liability that took someone elses spot for anything. I was just someone more to chat and have fun with. In games like XIV that isn't true and that is mostly why catching up even matters in the first place. Regardless of if a game is vertical or horizontal I think this is a much better way of making content.

Edited, Aug 2nd 2016 12:40pm by Belcrono
#88 Aug 02 2016 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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Belcrono wrote:
Thayos wrote:


- Constant influx of new content... no running the same content/instances for years on end (hello, sky/dynamis).

That said, I can easily see how those benefits can be turned into negatives by people who favor horizontal progression. But these are certainly benefits for people who like vertical games.


I think a good example of that would be that there is more room for new types of content to be developed in a game with horizontal progression. In a vertical system you have to replace everything every few months. XIV is a good example of that as they have these big patches that they put a lot of effort into, but for the most part it isn't actually new content, it is just a new skin on the same content. Two new dungeons and/or a remake of an old dungeon, all of which have the exact same straight layout with three bosses, a raid either 8-man or 24-man depending on which patch, a bit of story and a primal with a few different difficulties. Every now and then you get a new type of content, like Diadem or w/e, but that isn't actually content that stays relevant unless they keep updating it and since they can't update too many things all the time it is hard to make it have much use for more than a couple of weeks. Also on top of this, you do still have to do old content to get roulette done.

Comparing that to a horizontal system like XI you keep on building on everything which gives you a lot more freedom to build on and develop new types of content.

Like you said I have negatives for every positive you listed and more, but that is how everything is. We all like different things after all.

Anyway, Karlina mentioned that horizontal progression worked so well in XI because of gear swapping and I agree, but I do think there was one other thing that also played a large role. The very thing that Thayos mentioned earlier about content being a lot more flexible in how you could approach it. You could do Dynamis with ten people if you wanted to and it had its perks, but you could also go in with 64(?) people if you wanted to. The same thing applied to a lot of the content to an extent at least and for the most part there were pros and cons to each way like one being faster but you have to split the loot vs slower killing but less people to split loot with etc.

The reason this was so important in my opinion (in regards to horizontal progression) is that people often talk about how it is so much easier to come back and catch up in vertical progression games, but for me that has never been true in the sense that I don't "need" to catch up in a horizontal system. And that isn't because of how horizontal progression itself works, but how most horizontal games I've seen work. In XI I always have things to work for at my own pace when coming back, but I could always participate in endgame even when I didn't have the best gear available. Why? Because for the most part I was just an extra helping hand and not a liability that took someone elses spot for anything. I was just someone more to chat and have fun with. In games like XIV that isn't true and that is mostly why catching up even matters in the first place. Regardless of if a game is vertical or horizontal I think this is a much better way of making content.

Edited, Aug 2nd 2016 12:40pm by Belcrono

Since Horizontal progression isn't aimed at providing you new content every 3 months but instead focuses on providing longer investment and longer sustain into that content. It is usually resigned as Hardcore while Vertical progression is aimed at providing you additional content every 3 months and focuses on shorter term investments and shorter sustain into that content usually resigned Casual. You have your residents and your vacationers.

I believe there can be a compromise. Both Hardcore and Casuals want rewarding interesting content. Hardcore want something that requires a lot of time to invest in but not necessarily long single play durations. Casual want something that requires some investment with a bit less time investment than a hardcore and definitely not in long play durations.

The framework for endgame is already there for both casual and hardcore, meaning most things don't require 3-10 hour play durations but 1 hour or shorter. The only thing keeping content in the elite or hardcore realm is the enemy mechanics with the jump roping, strict builds, and the focus on solo rotations being the prime goal versus team dynamics being the prime goal which forces players to either have the highly competent participants with flexible schedules or have issues progressing.

Hey If Yoshi likes and has reasons that instanced strict rule content is the fairest way and the easiest way to maintain fairness, that is great. However, that shouldn't mean that everything has to be the same or should be the same. There can be dungeons and raids like there are now. But there could also be 2-3 hours open dungeons/zones likes Sky, Sea, Abyssea within the game.
#89 Aug 02 2016 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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Belcrono wrote:
Thayos wrote:


- Constant influx of new content... no running the same content/instances for years on end (hello, sky/dynamis).

That said, I can easily see how those benefits can be turned into negatives by people who favor horizontal progression. But these are certainly benefits for people who like vertical games.


I think a good example of that would be that there is more room for new types of content to be developed in a game with horizontal progression. In a vertical system you have to replace everything every few months. XIV is a good example of that as they have these big patches that they put a lot of effort into, but for the most part it isn't actually new content, it is just a new skin on the same content. Two new dungeons and/or a remake of an old dungeon, all of which have the exact same straight layout with three bosses, a raid either 8-man or 24-man depending on which patch, a bit of story and a primal with a few different difficulties. Every now and then you get a new type of content, like Diadem or w/e, but that isn't actually content that stays relevant unless they keep updating it and since they can't update too many things all the time it is hard to make it have much use for more than a couple of weeks. Also on top of this, you do still have to do old content to get roulette done.

Comparing that to a horizontal system like XI you keep on building on everything which gives you a lot more freedom to build on and develop new types of content.

Like you said I have negatives for every positive you listed and more, but that is how everything is. We all like different things after all.

Anyway, Karlina mentioned that horizontal progression worked so well in XI because of gear swapping and I agree, but I do think there was one other thing that also played a large role. The very thing that Thayos mentioned earlier about content being a lot more flexible in how you could approach it. You could do Dynamis with ten people if you wanted to and it had its perks, but you could also go in with 64(?) people if you wanted to. The same thing applied to a lot of the content to an extent at least and for the most part there were pros and cons to each way like one being faster but you have to split the loot vs slower killing but less people to split loot with etc.

The reason this was so important in my opinion (in regards to horizontal progression) is that people often talk about how it is so much easier to come back and catch up in vertical progression games, but for me that has never been true in the sense that I don't "need" to catch up in a horizontal system. And that isn't because of how horizontal progression itself works, but how most horizontal games I've seen work. In XI I always have things to work for at my own pace when coming back, but I could always participate in endgame even when I didn't have the best gear available. Why? Because for the most part I was just an extra helping hand and not a liability that took someone elses spot for anything. I was just someone more to chat and have fun with. In games like XIV that isn't true and that is mostly why catching up even matters in the first place. Regardless of if a game is vertical or horizontal I think this is a much better way of making content.

Edited, Aug 2nd 2016 12:40pm by Belcrono



This is a great post and is exactly my feelings.

I agree to with sandpark though why cant there be compromise.

Look at the original relic in FFXIV it took time and offered a better piece of gear. It was not done right but it is just a example that it could be done.
Why can you not have some gear that takes work to get for those with the time to do it? Why not have both. This gives a path that is easy to catch up and those that put time in have something to be proud of. FFXI rarely had new people because of the issue of catching up.. They have changed that too in FFXI for those who want to come back with sparks gear. Sparks gear makes it easy to gear up.. They also have a easy way to upgrade all AF and relic gear in FFXI.
I just do not know why a hybrid system would not work.


For me I want some original content not just cookie cutter dungeons. It feels like they are throwing out content just to throw it out. there is not lack of content but lack of new original content. Game companies are starting to make me feel like I am stupid and gamers are stupid and the lack any imagination or skill anymore. No one wants challenge. If that is so why do I see so many people looking for challenge.

You are right they are just re skinning everything and adding a few moves different by renaming some abilities.

Pretty soon this game is going to be so big they are going to have to shut dungeons down or areas because once done they are useless.

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#90 Aug 02 2016 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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By the way just purchased a refurb laptop to play FFXI on...
AMD A8-7410U Quad Core Processor 2.2GHz /4 Cores / Max boost 2.5GHz

17.3" HD+ (1600x900) LED Display with Turelife and HD Web Camera

8GB DDR3L 1600MHz RAM

1TB SATA 5400rpm Hard Drive

8X DVD +/- RW Drive

Integrated AMD R5 Graphics with One HDMI Port

I think this should be fine..
Should we move to server Asura?

I will probably go to the FFXI forums for this.



We are going to play both games for a while but come back every few patches for FFXIV.
Tesee is keeping her main so she can go into her house every so often but dropping retainers for now.
I am dropping everything between patches.
Who knows maybe they will come out with some new engaging material or a hybrid progression.


Edited, Aug 2nd 2016 3:31pm by Nashred
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#91 Aug 02 2016 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Minimum raid size in WoW has been 10 players for about 10 years now.

This statement is incorrect. 'Flex raid'(the official term for it if you want to search) was available even prior to the last expansion. It was built into the LFR with WoD expansion.

I say that 9-10 man was the sweetspot, but that's mostly due to people not wanting to search for more players than that for PUGs. Generally speaking though, the more people you threw at the content, the more it rewarded you and the easier it became to defeat.

Archmage Callinon wrote:
Actually challenge modes cap your item level to about heroic 5-man levels. So no matter how decked out you are in unimaginable power, your item level is basically what a fresh max level character has after a couple days of dungeons. And then they give you a stopwatch and say go.

Trinkets. Plain and simple.

While it's true that your item level was capped and also that you couldn't use set bonuses from raid gear, trinkets still granted much higher benefits than any other single slot item. There are programs and websites for WoW that you can use to calculate which items are upgrades and by how much. Trinkets were almost always at the top of the list in terms of how much benefit was gained from a single slot.


Edited, Aug 2nd 2016 4:29pm by FilthMcNasty
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#92 Aug 02 2016 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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Best part is.

All they need to do is add a "Battle Arena" to the Gold Saucer and throw in battles there through half updates and you could satisfy people quite easily because the thing that ALWAYS lasts every update:

-Raid
-Alliance (weekly lockout forces this to last)
-Primal.

Any other content introduced is obsoleted, exhausted or ignored within the first week. Palace of the Dead would suffer the same fate if it didn't offer a content obsoleting weapon and materia. Literally, I've amassed more Tier V materia (70) in a short span of time than I did in all the inclusion of Derpadem, VoidArk and Weeping City. Not even going to talk about gear conversion.

"Battle Arena" can suit the purpose of not only redoing old battles as people requested (the game's core supports this as we've found out when working on a private server...) but it also serves the purpose of things like "the Dragon's Neck", can throw in fights based on other FF games (it is a fan service title) which can either be difficult (for progression themed based gear) or on the easy side for theme based glamour or offer a venue for people to "grow" their skills as it gets progressively harder.

Takes far less work too because they already reuse assets and recolors (The Vault versus Vault revisit or Research Facility vs the revisit etc.)

Like I said, there's just so much more they can actually do if they truly wanted to, but yoshi has basically said he won't divert from current plan. He's even said they CAN do a lot with the itemization but choose not to as well. So in all reality, its less about "no resources or manpower" and more about "everyone is happy with what we throw at them now, why do anything else?"

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#93 Aug 02 2016 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
This statement is incorrect. 'Flex raid'(the official term for it if you want to search) was available even prior to the last expansion. It was built into the LFR with WoD expansion.

I say that 9-10 man was the sweetspot, but that's mostly due to people not wanting to search for more players than that for PUGs. Generally speaking though, the more people you threw at the content, the more it rewarded you and the easier it became to defeat.


The flexible raid size was introduced in Siege of Orgrimmar, the final raid of the Mists of Pandaria expansion as a difficulty between LFR and Normal in which you could bring between 10 and 25 players and the raid would adjust its numbers accordingly.

Starting in Warlords of Draenor, the flexible raid difficulty as a name was removed and the functionality was added to the Normal and Heroic difficulties. The upper limit of players was also bumped up to 30 at this time. WoD LFR is built by a matchmaking system and will always fill to 25 people. While it can technically scale itself the same way as normal and heroic, the system will work to backfill until it's a 25 person raid. The only way to do LFR with more than 25 people is to build the raid yourself. Even then, the raid size is between 10 and 30 players.

No raid in World of Warcraft has ever been built for fewer than 10 people.

While you can technically enter a raid by yourself, the minimum scaling point for the numbers in the raid is for 10 players. At no point in World of Warcraft has it ever been advantageous to enter a raid with fewer than the minimum number of players (except for an achievement at the beginning of Wrath of the Lich King that asked you to do just that... but that was an achievement, not an advantage).

As for the sweet spot in PUGs it tends to fall somewhere between 15 and 20 players when using scalable raids, and before that it was always the maximum number of players possible (either 10 or 25 depending on the raid difficulty).
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#94 Aug 02 2016 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Either way, more players meant more loot(up to cap), raid difficulty went down as player numbers increased and vice versa. Time searching for more players and time spent practicing were mentioned in the same sentence but have the opposite relation of what was being represented.

You also forgot to consider secondary stats as motivation to get better pieces of gear for challenge modes. Just because your 630 gear gives you the same amount of base attributesas the scaled down ilvl 700 gear gives doesn't mean you that they're the same. Depending on your spec, a piece of gear with 100 Str/Stam that has crit and mastery may **** all over a piece of gear that has 100 Str/Stam that has multistrike and versatility...

I think we're back to the point in the discussion where someone mentions that they want lowman content that offers the same rewards as larger scale raiding. What were the rewards for challenge modes?
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#95 Aug 02 2016 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
What were the rewards for challenge modes?


Cosmetic gear for getting gold times in all dungeons, a mount for getting silver times in all dungeons. In Legion however, the mythic+ dungeons will award raid level gear and can scale their difficulty up to however high you'd like to go.

Quote:
You also forgot to consider secondary stats as motivation to get better pieces of gear for challenge modes.


Maybe if you weren't itemizing your character properly in the first place? Stat weights change a little as gear levels go up, but not a ton.
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svlyons wrote:
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#96 Aug 02 2016 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
[quote]Cosmetic gear for getting gold times in all dungeons, a mount for getting silver times in all dungeons. In Legion however, the mythic+ dungeons will award raid level gear and can scale their difficulty up to however high you'd like to go.

Challenge modes just essentially take what is there, impose limitations so that you're somewhat gear balanced to the content and then challenge you to clear as quickly as possible. It's lowman content, but it's ^not going to be more punishing than if they just slapped some limitations on current dungeons and handed out glamours, mounts and minions.

I know that some players won't be happy with it not awarding raid level gear, but I also don't think those players would want to put in the time if something like mythic dungeons came to XIV. I guess we'll see how it shakes out in WoW, but I imagine since it's actually difficult and not just a speedrun, players will opt toward specific group compositions and spend quite a bit of time clearing.


Edited, Aug 3rd 2016 2:16am by FilthMcNasty
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#97 Aug 03 2016 at 8:46 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I know that some players won't be happy with it not awarding raid level gear, but I also don't think those players would want to put in the time if something like mythic dungeons came to XIV. I guess we'll see how it shakes out in WoW, but I imagine since it's actually difficult and not just a speedrun, players will opt toward specific group compositions and spend quite a bit of time clearing.


Maybe. I quite like the concept of the Mythic+ dungeons and XIV could benefit from having content like that.

I'll break it down here for people who might not be up to date on what's happening in a game they don't play..

Basically you purchase a keystone that's attuned to one dungeon. This keystone starts at level 1 and each time you clear the dungeon using the keystone, the keystone levels up. Every level the keystone goes up, the dungeon gets slightly harder. Every few levels the keystone gains a new affect like "all mobs enrage at 30%" or "threat generation is greatly reduced" that sort of thing. Each level the keystone goes up also increases the level of gear awarded at the end of the dungeon up to the current tier of raid gear. However, if you fail to clear the dungeon, your keystone is destroyed and you have to start again with a new one the following week (you get one per reset). Only the leader's keystone is used to make the dungeon.

It's small party content that awards high end gear if and only if you're good enough to get through the higher difficulties. It requires only a single party (no raid) and while the dungeon will probably take a little longer to complete, it's still just a dungeon and not a full blown raid.
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svlyons wrote:
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#98 Aug 03 2016 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
I'll break it down here for people who might not be up to date on what's happening in a game they don't play..


Hunh, that sounds pretty fun... Thanks for the description.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2016 2:34pm by Yelta
#99 Aug 03 2016 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
It's small party content that awards high end gear if and only if you're good enough to get through the higher difficulties. It requires only a single party (no raid) and while the dungeon will probably take a little longer to complete, it's still just a dungeon and not a full blown raid.

I like the idea personally, but I still don't think it's going to be for players who don't raid. It's static fodder since most players won't have time to finish in a single sitting. If you're bad time out on floor 1 then it's about an hour of time lost, no sweat. If you're successful and keep climbing however... you're looking at having to split progress over more than one session. Already looking at way more time spent in a day than I'd ever throw at someone I called casual Smiley: grin
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#100 Aug 04 2016 at 2:14 AM Rating: Good
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I'd say what kills it or me is the stone shattering. Much as I loathe lockouts, I'd rather see a specific level locked to like a 2h timer than forcing everyone to go 1-whatever again, as the over time effect is likely more consuming. Plus lower levels will eventually reward things nobody'll want/need. Otherwise, leveling up your personal starting point would simply require beating them sequentially. 1 > 2 > 3 = level 4. Starting at 5 from someone else would still leave you at 1 (or 4 if using prior).
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#101 Aug 09 2016 at 12:53 AM Rating: Good
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Gave The Elder Scrolls Online a try since it was on sale. Looked fun and felt good at first. 5 levels later i quickly realised why the game was horrible, or any free to play game for that matter.

Lets start with, i noticed you could swim, but not dive. Not a big deal, easily added, though the ocean floors were all flat and empty, no seaweed or anything even. Minor point perhaps, but thats not where i'm going with this. It would have been easily added, but the game is free (and has been out for a while). The only way the devs are getting money is from making silly hats or mounts they can sell in the cashshop. Their time wouldnt be spend redecorating the ocean and adding underwater swimming since that would be a waste of time that they could have spend on making money.

Then i had a look at the map when i was finally out of the starting island. Everything is locked behind a paywall. Everything. Its a mostly empty world map, with some lands here and there. Center of the map Cyrodill? Money. Dungeons? Money. Lands around the edges? Yup, money, the only features and maps they are going to add are all going to have to be purchased. I dont mind purchasing an expansionpack, but i'm not handing over €15-20 so i can access one extra guild. Or €120 for all of them. Or €15 for each little piece of the map, which is still mostly empty. And the only way people are going to get more pieces is if the devs make them and put them on sale.

Which, ok, is their business model. I understand. But they're rushing, not putting in as much work as they should or could, since they have to move on to the next thing to make for cash. And that are just the extra features... The base game is never going to be adjusted since time is money, and it feels like we'll forever be stuck with an unfinished game with 4 classes, 7 diffirent weapons and every little piece that needs to be bought inside an infinitely incomplete and lacking world.

That said, it woke me up and got me back to XIV fully again.

Free-to-play will forever be the downfall of any game.

(Sorry, typed on phone on my way to work, some errors)

Edited, Aug 9th 2016 8:58am by KojiroSoma
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