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#127 Jan 11 2017 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
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You know exactly what I mean. I love mmos and played FFXI for a very long time and anyone who still plays FFXI knows the game has changed the last year or so.


Honestly man, I've been trying to figure out what you mean when you say things for years now. That's why I keep pressing you on it, because I don't understand what you want. You want FFXIV to do "something new" but have no earthly idea of what that means, or at least nothing you're willing to put into words. At the same time you want FFXI to stop doing new things and focus on years-old content. I don't think my confusion is unreasonable here.

I know FFXI has changed. I played it back in caveman times too; I've also played it recently, the difference is astonishing. But what you seem to be asking for is for SE to do new things right up until they hit on something you like and then to keep doing that afterwards and stop doing new things. Is that about right?


I have said many times what I mean and what i am looking for..
You just have selective reading.

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#128 Jan 11 2017 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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I have said many times what I mean and what i am looking for..
You just have selective reading.


Every time I asked you to elaborate your response was "something new"
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#129 Jan 11 2017 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Karlina wrote:
Seriha wrote:
In most other MMOs, XI would be at the point where a cap increase would probably be a good idea, but that's simply not going to happen because maintenance mode or people getting uppity about older gear getting outclasses with potentially easier acquisition paths.

I understand the reluctance to change in FFXI. Gear took so long to get and the 75 cap lasted so many years that it's hard to even think about having to replace [item-that-took-2-years-to-get]. The very concept of having years of work instantly obsoleted is terrifying. It has to be done occasionally, but that doesn't make it any less scary.



Even though I know it will not happen anymore but a cap increase would be good for the game.
Personally new i-level works about the same without actually leveling but I do not like i-level.

In FfXIV when they made the relic obsolete it felt horrible, all that work.
I like in FFXI where there is a upgrade path for most things to keep them relevant.

Something were stupid hard in FFXI but things do not need to be as stupid easy either. Why cant they be right in the middle. Balance is so lost in modern day MMO's

FFXI was for people who played mainly one game and actually had a decent amount of free time.
It is hard for a game to actually provide that much content that takes up that much time.
Just no more mmo's like that. You put in the time and things feel like a accomplishment, things are handed to you it does not feel as good.

Edited, Jan 11th 2017 1:53pm by Nashred
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#130 Jan 11 2017 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
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I have said many times what I mean and what i am looking for..
You just have selective reading.


Every time I asked you to elaborate your response was "something new"


No I just do not answer you because I have said what I am looking for enough times.
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#131 Jan 11 2017 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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No I just do not answer you because I have said what I am looking for enough times.


Something new?

Then help me out here please. Can you direct me to the post where you actually gave a straight answer? It's possible I just missed it or didn't recognize it for what it was.
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#132 Jan 11 2017 at 2:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nashred wrote:
Something were stupid hard in FFXI but things do not need to be as stupid easy either. Why cant they be right in the middle.

"Hard" is subjective. What's hard for one person may be easy for another. For people with bad gear, killing a high level mob is hard. For people with limited play time, anything that takes a long time is hard. For people without friends or a good FC, anything that requires a lot of people is hard, etc. There is no magical balance point that pleases everyone.

Nashred wrote:
Balance is so lost in modern day MMO's

What are you talking about? Most modern MMOs are more balanced now then ever. Nothing will ever be perfectly balanced of course, but look at old school FFXI and modern day WoW/FFXIV/whatever and tell me what's more balanced.
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#133 Jan 11 2017 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
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If anything things are too balanced and homogenized in most new games now. The crazy imbalances in old school RPGs were fun.
#134 Jan 12 2017 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Karlina wrote:
Nashred wrote:
Something were stupid hard in FFXI but things do not need to be as stupid easy either. Why cant they be right in the middle.

"Hard" is subjective. What's hard for one person may be easy for another. For people with bad gear, killing a high level mob is hard. For people with limited play time, anything that takes a long time is hard. For people without friends or a good FC, anything that requires a lot of people is hard, etc. There is no magical balance point that pleases everyone.

Nashred wrote:
Balance is so lost in modern day MMO's

What are you talking about? Most modern MMOs are more balanced now then ever. Nothing will ever be perfectly balanced of course, but look at old school FFXI and modern day WoW/FFXIV/whatever and tell me what's more balanced.



You know what I mean! FFXI was considered hard and FFXIV is considered easy, not individual person ability.. Matter of fact if you talk to people who do not play FFXIV allot consider FFXIV to be for people who prefer glamor to actual gameplay/combat. You would not believe some of the stuff people say about FFXIV. To me since I played it a while it is a little offensive plus i have not decided if I will never comeback.

By balance I am not talking job balance and I knew it would lead to this and should have made it clearer. What I mean is a game that is for all types of players: hardcore or non hardcore or those who prefer to solo mostly. That is hard to do in a game.

Edit
I myself prefer something just a little less changeling than FFXI was, I do not have as much time as I did then. FFXIV doesn't really have much of any and usually gets nerfed in no time. FFXI was hard on the newbie where FFXIV it is easy to pick up and catch up. When FFXIV launched I was looking for something a little closer to FFXI than FFXIV is. I wasn't looking for the same game ( I left FFXI for a reason) But something a little closer on challenge.


Also I did not start this thread to be another debate thread. I started it to see what people were up to and keep in touch. See if anything new is happening in the game.

If someone doesn't enjoy a game there is nothing anyone can say to change someones mind.



Edited, Jan 12th 2017 12:46pm by Nashred
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#135 Jan 12 2017 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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You know what I mean! FFXI was considered hard and FFXIV is considered easy, not individual person ability..


The fact you keep having to tell people they know what you mean should tell you that perhaps you're not communicating your intentions clearly. That aside, "hard" and "easy" can mean a bazillion different things when it comes to games in general and MMOs in particular. I think that's what Karlina was trying to say up there. What's hard for someone may be easy for another. For instance in caveman-times-FFXI, leveling was "hard" because it took a long time; you had to devote hours at a sitting to making any meaningful progress on that front, and it could legitimately take over a year to reach level 75. By contrast FFXIV's leveling is "easy" because it's a guided process that takes a few weeks at most. But what kind of gameplay is that?

So FFXI's hard leveling has more to do with time commitment than anything else. If you can put enough time into it, you'll get there eventually because the actual gameplay is quite simple... stand around and auto attack something until it's time to push a button which only happens every couple of minutes or so. FFXIV's leveling a great deal more involved even though the time commitment aspect is significantly less, the gameplay involved is a lot more complex. So is FFXIV's leveling "hard" because you have to deal with fight mechanics and an ever-growing kit of abilities that eventually turn your combat into a kind of keyboard dance? It's subjective. It's all subjective.

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By balance I am not talking job balance and I knew it would lead to this and should have made it clearer. What I mean is a game that is for all types of players: hardcore or non hardcore or those who prefer to solo mostly. That is hard to do in a game.


God, that's nearly impossible to do in a game. Hardcore players consume content at a lightning pace, whereas casual players can take much much longer to consume their content. At the same time casual players can consume their content quickly and then just do it over and over again casually and be happy (or not). Making a game for all types of players is something developers have been trying to do forever and they've basically never done it. If that's the kind of balance you're looking for, good luck.. let us know if you find it because it's probably a unicorn in disguise.
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#136 Jan 12 2017 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
I'm just chipping away at the story missions. Once I finish SoA, then I'll knock out the rest of Rhapsodies and that will be that. It sucks, because FFXI's use of "wait until the next game day" walls always nullifies my erratic chunks of lengthy playtime.


Well definitely can tell you don't raid in this game, since XIV has much, much longer waits that breaks up the action. Just saying.

Callinon wrote:
Quote:
I have said many times what I mean and what i am looking for..
You just have selective reading.


Every time I asked you to elaborate your response was "something new"


Think a big part of this is, no matter what you say, unless it's in support for XIV, you'll get told off or told you're wrong/MMOs not for you/insert any other "gtfo the genre" response.

So while difficulty is indeed subjective especially when it comes to XIV where people consider dodging AoEs to be insanely difficult, some things aren't because when a designer specifically states they designed x to be easy, if you still find it hard, that means it's not a matter of content and more player skill. For the style of MMO XI was, there was "hard" and "easy content", but there were also multiple ways to tackle harder content, some even down to using very niche setups (unless you were crazy rich or in a crazy good HNMLS, one option was available to so few.)

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Most modern MMOs are more balanced now then ever. Nothing will ever be perfectly balanced of course, but look at old school FFXI and modern day WoW/FFXIV/whatever and tell me what's more balanced.


Oldschool FFXI because joe blow Samurai won't be a powerhouse, nor will joe blow Paladin be an amazing tank. XI wasn't the pinnacle of balance, but you HAVE to work to get "overpowered", especially in the old school design, it's not like XIV where everyone can scrape by doing even less than the bare minimum in 90% of the content. If anything, Modern WoW and XIV for example are the worst examples of balance, because it's "balanced" in a way that nothing matters.

Like, realistically, XIV is designed that there's no goals that matter because the game is "Balanced" in that way. It's nice to have x, but it doesn't matter in the long run, which is why people want the raid setup to be changed, which Yoshida thankfully listened to and 4.x MAY actually be worthwhile in terms of reward structure.

Callinon wrote:
God, that's nearly impossible to do in a game. Hardcore players consume content at a lightning pace, whereas casual players can take much much longer to consume their content


Then comes the: "Who is a hardcore player and who is a casual player" since what seems to define "casual" is subjective based on argument. I'm a casual player as my playtime is extremely limited, but then I get told I'm not a casual player because I do the savage raids and ex primals in this game.

It's like..having the ability to clear content that requires knowing how to play makes you "hardcore." It takes less than an hour to learn an ex primal, especially if you're quick on the uptake. If you're not quick on learning content, it'll take you longer, doesn't make you any less or more casual either way. When talking about XIV specifically, the content gets consumed quickly because..there's not much content there.

Realize there's only 4-8 bosses at best in a year in terms of actual "hardcore content", whereas there's plenty of "casual" content scattered through the year - which even the most casual gamers complain about going through quickly unless there's...surprise, a time gate of some kind. XI's setup had a "content rotation" due to being horizontal, so even if you farmed x content to death, chances are you were already working on a different set of content as well. Unless you do Savage Raids and ex primals in XIV, your content base is actually fairly limited in the grand scheme of things because they obsolete content faster than they bring it out.

You can argue that if you join now you have tons of content...but how much of that content is relevant even to a causal player? So in terms of content consumption, it really falls down to:

Those who do content.
Those who choose not to do content.

None of the content in this game is really that difficult and even when they make 'hard content' it's hard because of the wrong reasons, which most raiders didn't even care for (Gordias) which is why you generally had only world first runners caring for it. Midas fixed that situation and Creator went towards the extreme opposite and being a bit too easy, as in you were able to skip phases at the start of the cycle, which is usually a bad thing for any content design, you're normally supposed to slowly get stronger and start bypassing phases later in the cycle like most vertical progression MMOs.

So I guess it comes down to, who are the causal players? Because as far as any "official" definition, SE's definition of casual are the players who aren't even max level during any phase of XIV (ARR/HW.)



Edited, Jan 12th 2017 8:21am by Theonehio
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#137 Jan 12 2017 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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Think a big part of this is, no matter what you say, unless it's in support for XIV, you'll get told off or told you're wrong/MMOs not for you/insert any other "gtfo the genre" response.


I don't do that and I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't put words in my mouth. I've been critical of FFXIV myself in the past and I'm willing to listen to and have conversations about reasonable complaints about the game. My problem tends to come along when someone wants it to be a completely different kind of game than it is. If you want to talk about making the game better, cool. If you want to talk about turning it into a first-person shooter or something, we're going to have an issue

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it's not like XIV where everyone can scrape by doing even less than the bare minimum in 90% of the content.
.

Do you know what "minimum" means? Your disdain for casual players is well-known and is on full display here.

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Then comes the: "Who is a hardcore player and who is a casual player" since what seems to define "casual" is subjective based on argument.


It is, that's true. You always have to recontextualize what someone means when they use those terms so that you're having the same conversation as the person you're talking to. I don't like the terms personally because they tend to be vague and have wildly conflicting definitions. But those terms are the norm when it comes to discussing games, so those are the terms I used.

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Unless you do Savage Raids and ex primals in XIV, your content base is actually fairly limited in the grand scheme of things because they obsolete content faster than they bring it out.


That's...impossible. If you want to claim that older content is obsoleted by newer content ok.. in some cases it is. But content can't be obsolete before there's something to replace it. That's just not how that word works.

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You can argue that if you join now you have tons of content...but how much of that content is relevant even to a causal player?


All of it for a while, then such a player will settle into those things they want to spend their time on. Maybe they want to build an anima weapon, so they spend their time FATE grinding for crystals and then do a bunch of roulettes each day for lore. Maybe they want to learn EX primals and so they do that, maybe they want to stand around and have beauty contests or put on plays (btw did you see that? that was cool as ****).

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So I guess it comes down to, who are the causal players? Because as far as any "official" definition, SE's definition of casual are the players who aren't even max level during any phase of XIV (ARR/HW.)


I don't know that SE has ever defined what a casual player is. My metric for casual/hardcore has to do with how seriously someone takes their play time. You, for instance, have limited playtime but you focus on the hardest content in the game. I'd consider you a hardcore player because you've spent your time mastering the game and learning both how to play at the highest levels and how to handle the hardest content. I don't focus on savage raids and EX primals but I do focus on improving my character and my play. I consider myself a midcore-hardcore player because no matter what I'm doing, I want to do it the best I possibly can and I care about playing whatever I'm playing to the best of my abilities. I have a few friends who I'd describe as casual players. They enjoy doing content, but aren't super concerned about doing their rotations perfectly or necessarily getting every mechanic right as long as the fight is won eventually (may take a couple tries). They spend their time in-game enjoying themselves in different ways than I do and that has to be ok.

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#138 Jan 12 2017 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well definitely can tell you don't raid in this game, since XIV has much, much longer waits that breaks up the action. Just saying.


Ha, the vast majority of FFXIV players don't raid.

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I don't know that SE has ever defined what a casual player is. My metric for casual/hardcore has to do with how seriously someone takes their play time. You, for instance, have limited playtime but you focus on the hardest content in the game. I'd consider you a hardcore player because you've spent your time mastering the game and learning both how to play at the highest levels and how to handle the hardest content. I don't focus on savage raids and EX primals but I do focus on improving my character and my play. I consider myself a midcore-hardcore player because no matter what I'm doing, I want to do it the best I possibly can and I care about playing whatever I'm playing to the best of my abilities. I have a few friends who I'd describe as casual players. They enjoy doing content, but aren't super concerned about doing their rotations perfectly or necessarily getting every mechanic right as long as the fight is won eventually (may take a couple tries). They spend their time in-game enjoying themselves in different ways than I do and that has to be ok.


Nailed it. I'm solidly midcore. I mostly use my limited playtime to get things done and advance my character, whether by leveling another job or (once per week) doing Primal Extremes with my static.

I'm not hardcore enough to put up with the rigors of savage-level raiding or max out all of my jobs/crafts/etc. And I'm definitely more than casual, as I do try to be the best I can be at whichever job I play.

Edited, Jan 12th 2017 10:15am by Thayos
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#139 Jan 13 2017 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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It's pretty much a given that on whatever MMO board you speak up, especially an official one, about some other MMO, it's going to be called trash, a failure, or whatever. In reality, these games are often more similar than some are willing to admit, with the most dramatic differences lying between aesthetic. I can't even put story in there out of good faith, because the actual act of caring about lore means **** in the grand scheme of these mathematically stilted endgames. In terms of combat, rotations are more common a theme than they should be (and I'd even point back to the olden Refresh/Haste cycle for RDM in XI as an example of this there), with the occasional slight variations here and there like blocking in Tera or dodge rolling in GW2. Barest of bones, kill things and get stuff has been the root of progression, be it EXP, gold, items, etc..

And Hio forgot the third type of player: Those who try, but can't get the content done. And if anything, a perpetual history of that eventually turns someone into a player who never tries.

Nonetheless, we've done this song and dance about what a casual player is before. Time affords more flexibility, and that includes past experiences and connections. Someone who only plays 5 hours a week but has a guaranteed group of quality friends/help is far more likely to get things done than someone who throws 20 hours at the game and is constantly relying on PUGs or playing the crumbling static game. The former is not inherently a smarter player because of this, just more often lucky to have those resources available to make the gaming experience easier. Otherwise, more time provides more opportunities, and in games where content is more freely accessible, time can lend to the illusion of a more hardcore player even if what they do actually isn't difficult, just grindy.
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#140 Jan 14 2017 at 9:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Someone who only plays 5 hours a week but has a guaranteed group of quality friends/help is far more likely to get things done than someone who throws 20 hours at the game and is constantly relying on PUGs or playing the crumbling static game.


That's one of the biggest things I noticed when working on my alts to play with friends on Balmung and Sarga. So said "third type of player" wasn't forgotten, it just seems your mileage will vary based on what game and server you play it seems since I've had plenty of success with PUGs with my main on Chocobo, but on Balmung....

So it really is mostly people who do content and people who choose not to do content. The "try but fail" seems to be the rarest group, especially if you use any community forums as a metric because they're too busy complaining easy content is hard and waiting for it to get nerfed into the ground before even touching it or claiming the content type is "obsolete and shouldn't be in the game."

Since in 5 hours in this game specifically that's capped tomes for the week, weekly item in alliance based content (unless you're constantly wiping), complete run through of 4 floors of Alexander (normal) if you get lucky and get your items on first try. So that's quite a bit of content you can go through in a limited amount of time, not even counting Savage since people will forever believe the "MUST HAVE STATIC" train of thought and not counting smaller stuff that doesn't necessarily count as 'content.'

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It's pretty much a given that on whatever MMO board you speak up, especially an official one, about some other MMO, it's going to be called trash, a failure, or whatever


Yep, especially XIV boards because when you really look at other MMOs, they still seemed to have done some basic features so much better..request those features for XIV: "This ain't (MMO)/Go play (MMO)/All hail YoshiP/etc" even though it would only serve to make the game better.

Now that Yoshida finally admitted nothing is holding this game back besides their own desires, it's a matter of if/when they'll choose to evolve this game. The whole 'Rotation' based system is what kills anything interesting in this game because unless the battle system changes from what it is now, everyone so hyped for RDM will end up heavily disappointed, especially if they remember the Hype around MCH.

While MCH is an anomaly, a lot of features and gameplay ended up getting cut simply because it would be "too complex" for players..yet it was set to play on a similar system to PUP from XI..which everyone who's played XI/PUP knows it wasn't exactly that complex..you simply had to know what parts did what and how to maximize it. As of now we only know they'll prune/combine/alter skills players don't use (due to not touching the content where many come into play) and not much else besides possibly dropping Accuracy and Parry stats altogether.

At this point they may as well just combine everything into one overall stat like other MMOs have been doing lately.

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#141 Jan 14 2017 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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especially if you use any community forums as a metric


And you really shouldn't because people who participate in forums tend to be the most dedicated fans of a game. The overwhelming majority of players of any game don't participate in forum discussions and will usually not even be aware the forums exist unless they have a technical problem or something (and then customer service websites direct you to the forums).

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because they're too busy complaining easy content is hard and waiting for it to get nerfed into the ground before even touching it or claiming the content type is "obsolete and shouldn't be in the game."


Hyperbole aside, what's easy for you may be hard for someone else. I feel like we've talked about this already.

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Since in 5 hours in this game specifically that's capped tomes for the week, weekly item in alliance based content (unless you're constantly wiping), complete run through of 4 floors of Alexander (normal) if you get lucky and get your items on first try.


That takes me days, not hours. Most people don't play their games like wind sprints. You do, that's fine, but please don't assume you're in a majority there.



Edited, Jan 15th 2017 9:01am by Szabo
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#142 Jan 14 2017 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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and not counting smaller stuff that doesn't necessarily count as 'content.'


Which content is not content? I'm curious.

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ep, especially XIV boards because when you really look at other MMOs, they still seemed to have done some basic features so much better..request those features for XIV: "This ain't (MMO)/Go play (MMO)/All hail YoshiP/etc" even though it would only serve to make the game better.


I don't see this, but then I also don't go out looking for it to reinforce my confirmation bias.

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The whole 'Rotation' based system is what kills anything interesting in this game because unless the battle system changes from what it is now, everyone so hyped for RDM will end up heavily disappointed, especially if they remember the Hype around MCH.


New classes generate hype in MMOs. This has been true since time immemorial. The fact most people don't end up sticking with the new hotness has nothing to do with rotations existing. It has to do with people trying the new thing because it's the new thing, and then deciding later they liked their old thing better. A good recent example of this is WoW's Demon Hunter class that was just introduced. There were approximately 6 hojillion double jumping elves running around when those were introduced, but the number of people that actually stuck with the class is very small. Lots of hype, mediocre retention. The numbers will even out eventually, but that's just how this kind of thing works. It always has and it always will and it has nothing to do with rotations being a thing.


Callinon wrote:
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O...k?

Zam forum software... stellar as always.

Edited, Jan 15th 2017 9:02am by Szabo
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#143 Jan 14 2017 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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Well, now I'm curious what you said.
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#144 Jan 15 2017 at 8:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Its some new antispam feature for the EQ database site thats very buggy, cutting a portion of his post seems to fix whatever triggering it.

I went ahead and broke his post into two.
#145 Jan 15 2017 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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Szabo wrote:
Its some new antispam feature for the EQ database site thats very buggy, cutting a portion of his post seems to fix whatever triggering it.

I went ahead and broke his post into two.


Maybe it was all the in-line quotes... It makes me wonder what kind of toxic nonsense is going on with the EQ comment sections though.
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#146 Jan 16 2017 at 9:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
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especially if you use any community forums as a metric


And you really shouldn't because people who participate in forums tend to be the most dedicated fans of a game. The overwhelming majority of players of any game don't participate in forum discussions and will usually not even be aware the forums exist unless they have a technical problem or something (and then customer service websites direct you to the forums).


Main reason I say that is because people want to shrug off Database parsing, even though it gives an accurate number outside of A4/A8/A12s clear numbers due to the special nature of those achievements. So unless SE gives us their numbers, which as proven by the 2016 census they won't, we'll never know the 100% state of the game, only what we can parse ourselves. That's a big part of why as much as people want to brush off unofficial parsing, it counts said "don't participate in forums" players.

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Hyperbole aside, what's easy for you may be hard for someone else. I feel like we've talked about this already.


Sadly, it's not Hyperbole, as certain people on these forums have even said they won't touch content until it gets nerfed. Also, what's easy for one may not be for others, which is true, but if you can realistically say dodging AoEs (that gives you plenty of time to do so) is hard for some people..well, we can no longer state content is hard and it comes down to player skill. We did indeed talk about it before and I was told I was wrong to "blame the players." There's really no "hard" content in this game, since the only detrimental situations in most accessible content comes down to people just not caring, so it largely comes down to me assuming players would know the basics of the game because outside of Savage Raids, they don't introduce "new" mechanics, usually a variation of a mechanic you've already seen. For example you should not be running away from "GATHER TO SOAK THIS DAMAGE" mechanic you've seen before.

If you can honestly say grasping that concept is "hard for some people" despite how easy of a mechanic is, then you're misunderstanding what I'm talking about. Especially since the only content that utilize that mechanic requires you to clear content before it that has used it before. I'm sure you've seen plenty of people run away with the stack indicator especially in Ravana and Weeping City, especially since there's very few content even during 2.x days, let alone 3.x, that has an indicator that says to "get away from me", it's usually gather or gather with a partner with similar indicator.

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That takes me days, not hours. Most people don't play their games like wind sprints. You do, that's fine, but please don't assume you're in a majority there.


Incorrect - Considering the nature of this game, if your playtime is limited to 5 hours or less a day, you can do A LOT in that time frame unless you're just ******* around basically, it's hard to deny that unless, yet again, it comes down to CHOOSING not to do content. PoTD caps out your tomes extremely quickly IF your goal is to get tomes because playing on your level 60 job nets you Scripture tomes at a fairly high rate clearing the floors, which will not take you long at all unless you unfortunately get terrible parties. Clearing 4 floors of Alexander doesn't take that long either, which is why I said IF you get your drops on first try each time. Current alliance content (Weeping City) takes 20-30 minutes at current ilvl, you'll obviously get that run that takes the full time, but as people on these forums love to say "that's an exception."

We already know the "majority" of players aren't even max level.or even stick around beyond 2.x's main storyline, because Yoshida even said that base on their research before deciding on introducing Jump potions which is why the main users of it will most likely be people running alts (character/jobs.)



Callinon wrote:

Quote:
ep, especially XIV boards because when you really look at other MMOs, they still seemed to have done some basic features so much better..request those features for XIV: "This ain't (MMO)/Go play (MMO)/All hail YoshiP/etc" even though it would only serve to make the game better.


I don't see this, but then I also don't go out looking for it to reinforce my confirmation bias.


You don't have to "seek it out", you simply have to look at any community, including this one, and you'll see it fairly often, you simply have to mention another MMO, especially one by the same Developers.

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New classes generate hype in MMOs. This has been true since time immemorial. The fact most people don't end up sticking with the new hotness has nothing to do with rotations existing.


It does, actually, even more so in this game, because they wanted the new jobs to be something different than what they already have been playing. People dropped MCH pretty quickly when it didn't turn out to be what was advertised, and I'm talking about the general playerbase, which even proven by SE's census data for the last year was in the minority.

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It has to do with people trying the new thing because it's the new thing, and then deciding later they liked their old thing better.


Since we're not allowed to bring up raiding or "OMG IT'S ONLY 0.0000000000000000001% OF THE PLAYERBASE!", a lot of people dropped MCH early on because it couldn't keep up and it was essentially the same thing as BRD..yet BRD did BRD better. This is the biggest reason for MCH dying off. However post adjustments, it's become the top DPS in game when the moons align for you. For WoW it definitely makes sense, especially considering the setup of that game in comparison to this one. XIV is homogonized, WoW actually has wiggle room even if it'd be ineffcient. For example you can deviate from "set" strategies in WoW all you want, if you do so in XIV, bad things happen because jobs and the game is not designed to do as such.

My point is more, people thinking RDM will be 'unique' or 'different' as per current battle system, will be disappointed because it'll fall into the MCH hype train of how it was supposed to be "unique" and "complex" and "your turret will be customizable/a key part of the job."

Edited, Jan 16th 2017 7:17am by Theonehio
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#147 Jan 16 2017 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
Hardcore Hio strikes again!

Quick-hit responses:

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Sadly, it's not Hyperbole


Yes, your views on this subject are totally hyperbole.

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There's really no "hard" content in this game


There is lots of hard content in this game; it's just difficult to varying degrees, and it becomes easy once scripts are memorized.

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if your playtime is limited to 5 hours or less a day, you can do A LOT in that time frame unless you're just ******* around basically, it's hard to deny that unless, yet again, it comes down to CHOOSING not to do content.


You can't expect everyone to play from a hardcore mindset. Your "******* around" is someone else's "helping FC mates with dungeons, decorating my house or gathering scrips, etc."

Quote:
You don't have to "seek it out", you simply have to look at any community, including this one


Again, silly hyperbole. Perhaps we'll call it Hiobole.

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It does, actually, even more so in this game,


I'm so flabbergasted by how wrong you were about everything else that I can't even remember what you're wrong about here. But you are wrong.

Quote:
My point is more, people thinking RDM will be 'unique' or 'different' as per current battle system, will be disappointed


People often don't stick with secondary jobs because they've already forged an identity to their first jobs. However, when jobs get stigmatized as being behind, that also affects casual and midcore players -- even if maximizing DPS is only really necessary for hardcore raiders. This is FFXIV, and most players don't expect the jobs to be substantially different. The game is clearly designed without support/hybrid roles, and that is not changing.
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Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#148 Jan 16 2017 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
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49,744 posts
Callinon wrote:
Maybe it was all the in-line quotes...
It was a combination of character count and overuse of naughty words like poop and assassin. Situation should be corrected for now.
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George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#149 Jan 17 2017 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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1,726 posts
Thayos wrote:
Hardcore Hio strikes again!

Quote:
There's really no "hard" content in this game


There is lots of hard content in this game; it's just difficult to varying degrees, and it becomes easy once scripts are memorized.



I agree there is no hard content in this game.. It is sad when you can watch a video and learn more than playing the game. All there is in any fight in this game is dodging and either you can or you cannot. Make a fight harder by adding more dodging and all that does is make the whm job harder because they can heal while moving. You get lazy dps who do not want to move which makes it even harder on the whm. Whm and tank are the only job with any challenge at all... All dps jobs are is rotation which also can be learned from a video. You have a dps check in some fights wooo and again if you know rotation should be nothing. Hey if you can not doge in a month or two they will nerf the content.

Lag in the game is about the only real challenge to over come for some or trying to get a party together where someone actually wants to learn the content without being carried and keeping them together. Thayos your right no one
Thayos wrote:
Ha, the vast majority of FFXIV players don't raid.
Well at least hardcore mode.

You said scripted yourself and that really is it. A fight needs to change and be different and it needs to create situations where you need to react different. The game does not even require to understand any skills it is amazing as long as you know rotation and again even if you do not understand it. There are never any surprises in this game ever.

A friend of mine, he is the one who got me into FFXI, He also played FFXIV the first version and hated it and this version. We were chatting the other night on the ps4 and talking about this thread and he said FFXIV is not for the casual gamer it is for the lazy gamer, the game who wants it all and it is just handed to them. Then again he is the one who talked me into play ESO which was terrible.

I think in a way he has something though. I think the real draw to the game is it is easy. With not much work you can get pretty much anything in this game and if you cannot get it then wait a month or two till they nerf the content and if you still stink someone can carry you at this point.

I think what made me realise this was the Relic. OMG it took allot of time which is cool with me but then as soon as I finished a section they Nerfed it and made it easy.
Then they took it way instead of expending on it. I think that is what broke my back and said why try to be on top anymore if they are going to just hand stuff to people.


I wanna comeback for the story, We loved the story. Tesee loved her house but what good is a house in this game anyway. You do not need it not even for storage. Housing could be so expanded upon and be awsum but they are in such a rush to bring in more content because the game is so easy people fly through content which does not allow the developers to do anything else in the game. FFXIV has so much potential but all it will ever get is cookie cutter scripted dungeons and fights. I think that is why I keep coming back is I see potential in this game. I do not want a game as hardcore as FFXI used to be either.






Edited, Jan 17th 2017 1:06pm by Nashred
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Server: Phoenix

FFXIV : Sir Nashred
server: Ultros
#150 Jan 17 2017 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
You said scripted yourself and that really is it. A fight needs to change and be different and it needs to create situations where you need to react different. The game does not even require to understand any skills it is amazing as long as you know rotation and again even if you do not understand it. There are never any surprises in this game ever.


Totally agree with the gist of this, but there is still difficulty involved -- otherwise, you'd be able to just watch a video and then one-shot the fights, which never happens. Most people need several hours of repetition with the same group in order to win these fights.

It's not real difficulty in the sense that you have to adapt to unpredictable situations, but to say these fights are "easy" or "very easy" is total hyperbole.
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Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#151 Jan 17 2017 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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3,712 posts
MMO fights cannot be unpredictable. Actually I don't know of any video game fight that can be unpredictable. A boss has a certain set of abilities that have been programmed into it and it will use those abilities when its programming tells it to. That's it.

With enough repetition you can learn what to do in any given circumstance. A well-crafted guide video makes this process easier because you're not seeing something you've literally never seen before. But that's literally all video games, so I'm not really sure what the complaint is this time. Is the complaint that a truly random fight can never happen? Ok, but then would you be ok with a fight that is randomly unwinnable? I suspect you would not be ok with that (be honest). At that point your chances of success have nothing to do with your skill as a player and everything to do with what hand you got dealt. At the reverse end of that too you have a fight that randomly just hands its loot to you because you won the dice roll. That'd make those world first groups feel great.

If all the content in FFXIV were easy because youtube exists then you'd have a lot more people sitting on full savage clears because it'd just be a matter of spending 10 minutes on youtube and pushing a couple buttons, then all the gear gets mailed to you? Right? Is that the argument here? But that's not the case because even if you technically "know" how a fight works, you still have to execute that while also doing your job and dealing with any mistakes your group makes that complicate the situation.
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svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
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