Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Reply To Thread

I dont think anyone can disagree with this article.Follow

#1 Aug 11 2016 at 7:15 AM Rating: Decent
****
5,038 posts
(despite the title yes it is FFXIV related... assuming you read the article)

http://kotaku.com/final-fantasy-xi-was-so-challenging-it-brought-people-1785114506
#2 Aug 11 2016 at 10:07 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
*****
12,810 posts
It is a good article, sadly the ones who tend to disagree are also the ones that usually says:

"It just took time, it wasn't difficult. (And in the same breath say XIV is difficult when it's just memorizing a script)"
"People don't have time to play MMOs these days so XIV is superior"
"The game was so slow blah blah"
"Nostalgia only made you like the game" (This seems to be the main argument from people that feel XIV is overall the better game.)

Since if Nostalgia/ "Rose tinted glasses" makes you like something, gaming and television sure did survive a long time being terrible and we just didn't realize it. Smiley: lol

Honestly, MMOs used to bring people together far more, which was the main appeal to an MMORPG despite what some people try to say. People didn't play online games to play solo in a "changing world"..that actually makes no sense when you really think about it. These are different times, but very little in these modern MMOs tend to actually bring people together, and the few content that does..is virtually meaningless or more of an annoyance depending on your experiences.

That's why they need more 8man content and more content that isn't there to just hold your hand, since even in the group content, this game has conditioned you to "work for yourself" since very little of the story could be experienced with friends, which isn't necessarily bad, but the tunnelvision is insane because there's very little working together aside mechanics that REQUIRE a group effort. XI and most older MMOs (even WoW) conditioned you to work together and rely on each other almost from the get go. You could solo, sure, but once you hit a certain level range or story segment, you had to work together.

The only issue was LATER in a game's life that it was hard to complete older content that people had no more use for doing. The same happens with XIV, which is why instead of creating new content, they force us into old content to keep it populated DESPITE following a vertical progression design.

____________________________

#3 Aug 11 2016 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
"It just took time, it wasn't difficult. (And in the same breath say XIV is difficult when it's just memorizing a script)"
"People don't have time to play MMOs these days so XIV is superior"
"The game was so slow blah blah"
"Nostalgia only made you like the game" (This seems to be the main argument from people that feel XIV is overall the better game.)


Fortunately, very few people here (if any) agree with these points.

I will say though that the type of difficulty that made FFXI great is not the kind of scripted difficulty that exists in XIV. Success in XIV was about mastering the game within the game. It was as much about endgame logistics as much as it was perfectly timing your abilities with attacks that could come at any time. Without the logistics, though, you had no chance -- and ultimately that (combined with the lack of instanced dungeons and duty finders) is why people came together.

And FFXI also made it much, much easier for people to come together than in FFXIV. The latter needs more XI-style endgame content for groups of variable sizes where less-experienced players can jump right in without dooming the entire run.

Edited, Aug 11th 2016 9:52am by Thayos
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#4 Aug 11 2016 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
****
5,723 posts
Theonehio wrote:
It is a good article, sadly the ones who tend to disagree are also the ones that usually says:

"It just took time, it wasn't difficult. (And in the same breath say XIV is difficult when it's just memorizing a script)"
"People don't have time to play MMOs these days so XIV is superior"
"The game was so slow blah blah"
"Nostalgia only made you like the game" (This seems to be the main argument from people that feel XIV is overall the better game.

Except that most of that is true.


Quote:
"It just took time, it wasn't difficult."

Mostly true. While there was some legitimately difficult content, most things in FFXI fell into the category of "waiting around for something." Be it a NM pop, party invite, coffer spawn, JP midnight, whatever. I don't know about you, but I spent WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more time waiting for things than actually doing things.

That's not inherently bad, but you can't deny that it's true.

Quote:
"People don't have time to play MMOs these days so XIV is superior"

This is also true for a lot of people. It's not 2004 any more. The average player is older now and doesn't necessarily have the time or inclination to sit around doing nothing meaningful for most of their play session. That's why modern MMOs are such much faster paced, and why things like MOBAs are so popular. People like being able to have fun immediately and quickly. Yes, there's something to be said for the feeling of satisfaction that comes from waiting, but if you don't have the time to dedicate to it then you'll never get that feeling anyway. In that case you may as well play something with faster, if lesser rewards.

Quote:
"The game was so slow blah blah"

You're not seriously going to try and argue this one, are you?

Quote:
"Nostalgia only made you like the game"

Of course not. Nostalga doesn't happen in real time. It does however probably play a large part in how us former players see it now.

This many years and several games later, FFXI is still the most fun I've ever had in an MMO. That said, I have no interest in starting it up again because intellectually I know that it won't live up to my memories. That doesn't negate all the fun I had all those years I spent playing, but there's no denying that nostalgia plays at least some part in how I see the game now.

Quote:
Since if Nostalgia/ "Rose tinted glasses" makes you like something, gaming and television sure did survive a long time being terrible and we just didn't realize it.

To some extent that true. Not that all television is bad, but I dare you to look at it objectively and tell me that there aren't some really terrible things that you like anyway just because you have fond memories of watching them.

There are a lot of shows I liked as a kid that I wonder about now. Was it really that good, or did I like it because I was 12 and they made a fart joke?
____________________________
75 Rabbit/75 Sheep/75 Coeurl/75 Eft/75 Raptor/75 Hippogryph/75 Puk
75 Scorpion/75 Wamoura/75 Pixie/75 Peiste/64 Sabotender
51 Bird/41 Mandragora/40 Bee/37 Crawler/37 Bat

Items no one cares about: O
Missions no one cares about: O
Crafts no one cares about: O
#5 Aug 11 2016 at 11:28 AM Rating: Excellent
Karlina, just wanted you to know that I agree with everything you say.

My comment above about how "nobody here agrees with this" (paraphrasing myself) is only a reference to the loaded language and flawed connections Hio made in her post.

Like "FFXIV is superior because it takes less time!" We all know that's BS. To say "FFXIV is preferable because it takes less time!" would be far more honest and accurate.

For many of us, the question has never been which game is superior to the other. It's more about which game would we rather be playing right now, with all the perspective and responsibilities we have being 10 years older.
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#6 Aug 11 2016 at 12:16 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,712 posts
Quote:
For many of us, the question has never been which game is superior to the other. It's more about which game would we rather be playing right now, with all the perspective and responsibilities we have being 10 years older.


This exactly. It isn't about one being superior to the other, which is an entirely subjective statement anyway. Everyone's going to have their own preference when it comes to how they want to spend their leisure time. FFXI is inarguably a slower paced game, that doesn't make it better or worse than another game, just slower. So if someone prefers a faster-paced game, they might prefer FFXIV over FFXI because of that. That doesn't make FFXIV a superior game, just more preferred by that person at that time.

I have a ton of great memories from playing FFXI back "in the day." But after 12 years more experience and being 12 years older than I was then, I can also objectively look back on FFXI and recognize that it wasn't a perfect game. Recognizing it wasn't a perfect game doesn't mean I didn't have fun with it and it doesn't invalidate my memories.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#7 Aug 11 2016 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
******
49,737 posts
Theonehio wrote:
"It just took time, it wasn't difficult."
That one was true though. XI wasn't difficult, we were just stupid for the first year.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#8 Aug 12 2016 at 5:48 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,104 posts
I hate the nostalgia argument. Such a copout.

When I said I preferred Uematsu's music to anything in XIV this dude said "no, it's not better. You're just blinded by nostalgia."

I wanted to punch him through the screen.
#9 Aug 12 2016 at 6:49 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
The thing about nostalgia is it tends to be one-sided. For one person who had no issue doing any content in XI, you'd have another who hated all the logistics/grind/waiting. Neither are technically wrong, but the former have a bad habit of even imagining the latter type existed, if not putting them down in the process because they're impatient/unskilled/anti-social. As for those who hated something or other, presuming they're even willing to talk about the game objectively, then there's likely something they did enjoy.

Thing about older generation MMOs is that they often promoted micro-communities (guilds/linkshells) as opposed to the greater good of every player. In some cases, this meant directly competing. In others, it meant you weren't getting something done if you weren't part of XYZ group. I still balk at the fact people demanded applications then, and perhaps even now, depending on how hardcore you approach these titles. The lessons learned from back then have translated to things like cross-server matchmaking and other LFG mechanisms, as others have pointed out, people want to the play their given game not so much as waiting to have a chance to.

Technically, we still haven't really slain the demon of exclusivity, and at that root, the exclusionary practices of MMO endgames. And it's not that people want hand-outs or whatever, but the realization that forcing highly organized group content simply isn't consistently feasible for everyone. And these players still deserve a meaningful endgame as long they're buying the titles, paying the sub fees, and contributing to the community in their own ways. Put bluntly, for all the progress the genre has made in the past decade, it's still shallow both mechanically and socially.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#10 Aug 12 2016 at 10:36 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,779 posts
The thing about hardship bringing people together...

is that it's still hardship. There really isn't much more that needs to be said there. FFXI was wildly criticized for it's difficulty and grind, and it kept so many people away. The positive trade off was that those that stayed, were forced to become closer knit.

You objectively cannot argue that FFXI was anything but a niche game. Was that niche happy with 'their' game, absolutely. That world had something special going on for it for those that conformed to the environment and the social circles stemming from it.

The rest is rose tinted glasses.

Wild Cheating, the constant bickering and talking down to players who did not conform to the meta of the patch, the RMT, the PKs, the massive miss behaviors, the poor turn around on any and all updates until FFXIV came out.

All of that gets glossed over when we remember the things we miss about a game. That's the nostalgia factor. We argued, complained, ranted, banged our heads against the wall when it came to FFXI, for years. Time takes out the sting of these things and you begin to value the good times that aren't repeatable - that's nostalgia, and yes, it effects people's hindsight. It's right to call it out.

Yes, cool, the community was pretty neat together (if you were in the right crowds for yourself). I still find that in FFXIV (I actually went looking.) - I'm just not forced to try to mesh with people I don't like for the sake of getting anything done now.

Cept Raiding, That's still ********* (Wow, even European curses are filtered.)


Edited, Aug 13th 2016 12:46am by Hyrist
#11 Aug 12 2016 at 10:54 PM Rating: Good
***
3,712 posts
Quote:
I still balk at the fact people demanded applications then, and perhaps even now, depending on how hardcore you approach these titles.


It's still a thing in most serious progression guilds. It works really well too. If someone isn't willing to spend 10 minutes filling out a form and talking to you for a little while, they probably aren't going to be putting in the effort necessary for serious progression.

It's all about what you want out of the game and then finding other people who want to play at the same level (whatever level that may be).
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#12 Aug 13 2016 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Except one's ability to compose a sentence, paragraph, or whatever the "employer" is specifically looking for doesn't translate to how well they can actually play. It's why you should just cut that step and actually play with someone to see if they both fit and seem sociable enough.

Further, it's the super serious tone that leads to things like probation periods where someone can spend weeks/months really getting nothing out of the arrangement only to potentially find they're better off elsewhere, or worse, get kicked, repeating the cycle elsewhere. I know token systems mitigate this to a degree, but as long as random drops are still a thing, priority lists will continue to exist and that just feeds into the exclusivity angle.

For all the moaning people may do about being forced to play the way a dev demands, its hypocritical to not find fault in players doing the same to themselves. Especially if there are alternatives.

Edited, Aug 13th 2016 12:24pm by Seriha
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#13 Aug 13 2016 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
***
3,712 posts
Quote:
Except one's ability to compose a sentence, paragraph, or whatever the "employer" is specifically looking for doesn't translate to how well they can actually play. It's why you should just cut that step and actually play with someone to see if they both fit and seem sociable enough.


You're right, composing a sentence has little bearing on ability to play (although it may have bearing on ability to communicate and receive instruction but that's another matter). But the fact of the matter is a serious raiding guild (and I used to be the recruitment officer for one) can receive literally dozens of applications per month. You have 4 raid lockouts in most months and you have room for maybe 2 or 3 trials per raid night without putting your runs at risk. So you need something to help you screen out people who are just obviously unsuitable to begin with (so you're not wasting your time and their's). Asking someone to fill out a form correctly and have a short conversation with you isn't asking a lot and it saves a ton of hassle later. I can tell you that of the people who got through our application and interview process, about 75% of them went on to become solid raiders. Imagine if we didn't have one.

Quote:
Further, it's the super serious tone that leads to things like probation periods where someone can spend weeks/months really getting nothing out of the arrangement only to potentially find they're better off elsewhere, or worse, get kicked, repeating the cycle elsewhere. I know token systems mitigate this to a degree, but as long as random drops are still a thing, priority lists will continue to exist and that just feeds into the exclusivity angle.


We used EPGP which, if you're not familiar with it, is a system that rewards attendance directly while keeping drops fairly distributed and attempts to forestall the problems other point systems have with (for instance) hoarding or collusion. Trials were at a lower priority than raiders when it came to drops, but they earned points just the same so that when their trial period was over most of them immediately got 1 or 2 pieces of gear they wanted because they hadn't gotten much during their trial. Again, we took steps ahead of time to ensure that the people we accepted as trials had a high likelihood of becoming raiders.

Quote:
For all the moaning people may do about being forced to play the way a dev demands, its hypocritical to not find fault in players doing the same to themselves. Especially if there are alternatives.


Of course there are alternatives. They can play with a different group of people that have different standards or want something different out of their raid nights. Every raiding guild is unique and every group of people is unique. My suggestion for someone who wants to join a top guild but objects to the application process is to pick a different guild.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#14 Aug 13 2016 at 12:57 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
Avatar
*****
12,810 posts
Hyrist wrote:
You objectively cannot argue that FFXI was anything but a niche game.


Considering the era it was released, it was also wildly successful. Most niche MMOs didn't get anywhere near as much popularity as XI did. Which, in your own words:

Quote:
All of that gets glossed over


It didn't hit millions upon millions of subs, but no MMO back then did besides Maple Story, which not only came out a year after XI, but at the time was THE most played MMORPG, ever. MS still technically beat out WoW despite how successful it was however it wasn't until WoW did MMOs slowly move out of the "niche" category. So realistically, MMORPGs in general was a niche genre, so it's kind of hard to be a niche MMO in a niche genre, unless it's something like comparing Smash Bros to other fighters of the time. Since you can't really argue that there was a certain group of players who played MMOs and a certain who played every other kind, very rarely did you find gamers who set MMOs into their gametime with every other game back then because as said, it was niche.

You had the odd person or two who played WoW full time then cracked out their GBA and DS, but it wasn't as common as it was today to play an MMO for 2 hours, crack out some Halo, then go back to your MMO. Once MMOs became far less structure is when it started becoming mainstream and honestly, when the design of MMOs started going downhill. MMOs simply weren't designed to be played "casually" back then which people love to forget that the whole reason they were niche to begin with is because it was the type of game you dedicated actual time to compared to playing 20 rounds of Halo or a Lan party at a sleep over.

Quote:
Wild Cheating


This happens in every MMO, including XIV, so no one really "glosses over" that. It would be unheard of to see an MMO with no cheating. The thing with XI, however, is the progression and itemization were quite different from the norm at the time, so the cheating only really happened with ground kings, which only A FEW people in the grand scheme of things did. That's why, when speaking of glossing over things, you joined an HNMls which were indeed known for cheating, or you joined linkshells that did every other content where cheating rarely if at all ever was a problem.

Quote:
the constant bickering and talking down to players who did not conform to the meta of the patch


Happens in every MMO, including "non-niche" MMOs of today. Even more so in vertical progression MMOs because there's literally nothing else you can do because there's only 1 progression that "matters." XIV for example, there's no excuse to not have at minimum full enhanced Eso gear or a set of Lore gear by now if you were a consistent player. That is when people "talk down" to others because not caring doesn't necessarily mean other people are "conforming"...that kinda just sounds like personal bitterness.

Quote:
the RMT, the PKs, the massive miss behaviors


Every MMO. Just like no one forgets 2005 when IGE sold 1mil gil per 1$ and you would be lying through your teeth if you say no one bought gil back then or even halfway got tempted yourself because the economy of XI was FOREVER changed since that day. So it'd be hard to say someone would gloss over the "negatives" when at the same time you tend to have people get attacked/berated for only focusing on negatives or shortcomings of a particular game, so I don't think anyone ever has glossed over anything bad, especially when it comes to XI. Smiley: wink

Quote:
Time takes out the sting of these things and you begin to value the good times that aren't repeatable - that's nostalgia, and yes, it effects people's hindsight. It's right to call it out.


Which goes right back to when I stated, people tend to always state nostalgia makes you like something that supposedly wasn't good to begin with. Just like I can guarantee I can state I loved XI's soundtrack far more than XIV's and it'll be "because of nostalgia, the music wasn't really good because it was compressed and certain instruments were low quality. Now XIV's, THAT'S a masterpiece of a soundtrack!"

Quote:
Further, it's the super serious tone that leads to things like probation periods where someone can spend weeks/months really getting nothing out of the arrangement only to potentially find they're better off elsewhere, or worse, get kicked, repeating the cycle elsewhere. I know token systems mitigate this to a degree, but as long as random drops are still a thing, priority lists will continue to exist and that just feeds into the exclusivity angle.


Let's put it this way, we all know from the XI days you were basically a huge supporter of a particular style of RDM, which clearly didn't fit well into most Raiding styles and content. If it were not for "probation periods", said new RDM who only used their RDM for solo content or meleeing ending up getting the drops that would help the raid..would just hinder progression. Not even saying that in a bad way, but what was stopping you from getting gear you could ONLY get if you joined an actual EGLS (since you couldn't solo Dynamis and Limbus/Einherjar back then) and bailing during your probation period if they allowed free lots?

Yeah priority lists existed but it's how you rewarded your players in a fair manner or else joe blow DRG who has a naked 75 RDM could walk out with a duelist chapeau compared to main RDM who needed it that walks out with nothing simply because DRG had 781 DKP, DL.Chap costs 45 DKP, 75 RDM only had 30 DKP, realistically it goes to DRG, yes? There's the reason for priority lists.

Quote:
Except one's ability to compose a sentence, paragraph, or whatever the "employer" is specifically looking for doesn't translate to how well they can actually play. It's why you should just cut that step and actually play with someone to see if they both fit and seem sociable enough.


In all honesty though, while playing on the NA side for raiding I did notice that while it doesn't really translate to actual skill people that could actually form a proper sentence and properly fill out an application versus "lolz invite me pls i 1800 dps drg lore wep a7s on farm mode fam" seemed to always actually been the better players because they not only took the time to fill out the app, but they seem far more reasonable when you start talking to them than the person who feels their 1800 dps should speak for itself when you try them out and they still get outdps'd by the DRK. I know this from experience because I pull 1200-1400 DPS on my DRK and our WAR/PLD pulls 1300-1450 (WAR)/ 1100-1280 (PLD) dps as of now and the NA group I run with actually use me as a barrier of entry because if you can't outdps a tank you're honestly not playing your DPS job right. Not gloating but, it definitely says a lot if your tanks are lifting most of the dps burden.

The step isn't cut because it shows if someone is actually serious, much like you won't find ANY employer that will cut the resume step or interview step and go straight to hiring you because it's not so much what's on it (though helps) it's the effort. Sure you could get shoved it if someone you know works there or if the boss is your mother ala family business, but that's what the probation period is for, to see if you can walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

____________________________

#15 Aug 13 2016 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Give me a f*cking break. Just because I believe SE screwed up with RDM in XI has no bearing on my ability to play and interact with others. Because I'll give you a hint: I mastered more than one job. If I'm really going to generally critique that particular back-in-the-day endgame scene, it'd involve people demanding you set alarm clocks around pop timers, among the general rarity of things/loot RNG. Sure, I hated how people treated RDM like a WHM and left WHM in the dust, but no amount of me telling people WHM was still functional could sink in to the collective hivemind. All I could personally do was play with and include other WHMs if on RDM. Otherwise, you have zero ******* knowledge about how I played and don't even pretend to think you did. That's just the usual BG-tier bullsh*t I put up with back in the day both here and in their "Let's collude to pick on people on the OF!" type threads. And when they wind up getting banned for their generally asinine behavior, they try to wear at as a badge of honor while being all, "Well, it's a cesspool anyway!"

That's not the kind of community I personally seek to reward and encourage. And if you want to take a step further with the implication I've never aided anyone here while waving that flag of, "She liked RDM melee, so she's a moron!" well, again, kindly go f*ck yourself. Actually, forget the pleasantries. Your own history of putting down NA players and slinging the typical elitist rhetoric really should remind me that you've earned no kindness.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#16 Aug 13 2016 at 4:48 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
Avatar
*****
12,810 posts
Seriha wrote:
Your own history of putting down NA players and slinging the typical elitist rhetoric really should remind me that you've earned no kindness.


When you play in two distinctly different communities of course it will seem like "putting down" since you belong to one of them. Also drop the "elitist" term, there's nothing elitist about the fact people preferred a certain playstyle when you hit end-game. Though once again, that's typically what's seen in NA communities. You take that as putting down, that's just the culture.

Just like people who "master content" quickly tend to be considered Hardcore, rather than just realizing the content itself isn't exactly challenging. That's something you find more so in NA servers in MMOs because that's just how they define the general "standard" of what's casual and hardcore. In Japanese servers, it's not really seen as "hardcore" or "casual" in the same light.

However you did kind of prove my point about some things though.

Quote:
Just because I believe SE screwed up with RDM in XI has no bearing on my ability to play and interact with others.


Which is exactly my point, you may feel one way about something and it may not mesh too well with others, which is why they want to see if you can walk the walk.

Quote:
Otherwise, you have zero ******* knowledge about how I played and don't even pretend to think you did.


Quote:
slinging the typical elitist rhetoric


Yet you can do exactly that. Alright then.

Quote:
And when they wind up getting banned for their generally asinine behavior,


You do realize you can get banned on the OF of FFXIV for merely stating facts, right? No matter how you slice it all it takes is someone to get **** blasted and report you and you'll trigger a ban. It's not even properly moderated most of the time, people can get banned if they show a screenshot with someone's name it. So don't even try to link it with a certain attitude/behavior lol.
____________________________

#17 Aug 13 2016 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Quote:
Yet you can do exactly that. Alright then.

When you time and time and time again effectively espouse that NA players are retards, then yes, I put that in the label of elitist rhetoric right along with talk of welfare, not wanting challenge, getting **** mailed to you when you log in, and other buzzwords.

You want to come off as really confident knowing what "we" are, but as someone more prone to wading in this particular scene because I don't jump from game to game with a specific circle of friends, what I CAN tell you is that most people are actually pretty chill. Bad apples here and there? Absolutely. Yet, we don't exactly log in thinking how we might ***** some people over today. I can't quite say the same for some people about XI back in the day.

Otherwise, I may as well point out a particular trend of the XI elitist. Let's use DRK's elemental magic as an example.
A) It sucks. Don't use it ever. If you use it, you're dumb.
or
B) What could we do to make it work?

I happen to fall into the B category, and certainly applied it to RDM in those particular topics. Naturally, I was met with counters of impossibility, that it shouldn't happen, or worse. Yet, I dare not confuse complacency with enlightenment. Just because that's how something is doesn't mean that's how it should remain, and stagnation being anathema to MMOs has been one of my long-standing philosophies.

You're mad things have changed, we get it. That doesn't mean they're worse. No one really wants to read the MMO equivalent ramblings of "Back in my day..." stuff. And that's really where people harp on the nostalgia argument. We're not in the Wild Wild West of MMOs anymore. Cope.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#18 Aug 13 2016 at 5:56 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
Avatar
*****
12,810 posts
Seriha wrote:
Quote:
Yet you can do exactly that. Alright then.

When you time and time and time again effectively espouse that NA players are retards


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/298113-Forcing-NA-Duty-Finder-to-be-better-we-need-a-grading-system.

Since you know, I'm the sole person in the world that finds things tend to be on the bad side more so than good on the NA clusters, nor have I ever used the word "retards"...so don't add that word to my thought process (btw even the linked topics got far more traction, so you know...) ;) So it's not even putting anyone down, it's simply stating what A LOT of people state and feel, you just can't always openly express it on OF because, as said, you will EASILY get banned even if you're not being mean.

Quote:
You're mad things have changed, we get it. That doesn't mean they're worse. No one really wants to read the MMO equivalent ramblings of "Back in my day..." stuff. And that's really where people harp on the nostalgia argument. We're not in the Wild Wild West of MMOs anymore. Cope.


I don't recall being mad about anything though, I just don't sugarcoat things.

Quote:
Otherwise, I may as well point out a particular trend of the XI elitist. Let's use DRK's elemental magic as an example.
A) It sucks. Don't use it ever. If you use it, you're dumb.
or
B) What could we do to make it work?


I fall into B as well, but I'm not going to fall for the "traps" that others seem to. A is certainly true though and has nothing to do with elitism. You are infact dumb if you sit there and nuke with DRK's elemental magic. You're wasting MP you could have saved for Absorbs, Drain/Aspir, Dread Spikes or ****, stuns. Someone saying "you're dumb" isn't really an insult or anything..you really aren't being that smart with your casting lol. Heck I tank and solo some stuff on my DRK even back pre Abyssea era, so I know all too well how DRK's magic situation is. It'd be like if a PLD only ever cast Cure and Banish II.

Quote:
I put that in the label of elitist rhetoric right along with talk of welfare, not wanting challenge, getting **** mailed to you when you log in, and other buzzwords.


The thing with this though...people keep wanting SE to nerf content that isn't anywhere near challenging, so it's VERY easy to think people don't want want an actual challenge.
____________________________

#19 Aug 13 2016 at 6:12 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,712 posts
Quote:
The thing with this though...people keep wanting SE to nerf content that isn't anywhere near challenging, so it's VERY easy to think people don't want want an actual challenge.


I saw a great forum juxtaposition a few weeks ago...

Thread titled: Blizzard took away all the buttons, rotations are mindless

Right above

Thread titled: Rotations are too complicated, I can't keep up

I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the exact titles here and those threads are lost to the nether regions of that particular site's backlog at this point. They were started by different people each with thousands of posts on their record (so probably not socks). Right there next to each other like that. It was amazing.

Y'know what it signifies pretty clearly? That people are different. Different people at different skill levels with different experiences and different expectations want different things out of a game.

I've mentioned to you before that generalizing is basically always wrong. "People keep wanting SE to..." is too broad. Some dude on the forums wanted SE to nerf something he or his static couldn't handle. That's a far cry from an entire userbase making a demand, and frankly you're never going to get an entire userbase to agree on anything... ever.

When Seriha talks about your tone being elitist, I believe this is what she's talking about:
Quote:
Though once again, that's typically what's seen in NA communities. You take that as putting down, that's just the culture.

Quote:
That's something you find more so in NA servers in MMOs because that's just how they define the general "standard" of what's casual and hardcore. In Japanese servers, it's not really seen as "hardcore" or "casual" in the same light.


Neither of those statements was probably intended to come off as super snobby, but they both did. And it's hardly the first time you've alluded to NA players just being inherently inferior to JP players. That not only sounds elitist, it IS elitist. It may not be what you're intending, but it's what you're doing. So maybe pay attention to that (unless it's intentional, then go nuts, but don't try to hide behind denial then).
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#20 Aug 13 2016 at 6:37 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Attempting to grade people is a horrible metric since it's subject to so much variance it's not even funny.

Nonetheless, I call it all "rhetoric" because it's been commonly observed enough for myself and others to have noted a trend out of it, and it's not something one should really be proud about not being alone on. Vocal minority? Most likely. I wouldn't really take their feedback to heart just as I wouldn't some random person asking for nerfs without some compelling logic behind the request. Otherwise, it behooves any MMO dev to have some logging mechanisms in place tracking things like how often a dungeon was accessed, how many times it was cleared, who wiped to what, and then some. It's when you compare that kind of data against complaints where you decide whether or not something is warranted. And if a dev isn't even taking those steps, then they're failing to really monitor the quality of their product.

As it is, most forum content you're going to see will be negative. That's just how it is. Some of it is happy people simply playing the game. A fair bit is some people just not having the time to dedicate to the forum PvP. There will be noise, but there will also be truths. Sugarcoated or not, however, not all truths are facts.

Then there's just people trolling for the sake of trolling. PLD joins a DF and refuses to tank? Well, you kick him. Waiting for a replacement sucks, but this arguably segues into the discussion about party (in)flexibility, and I mean more from the dev end than that of player trending. And some people are understandably bitter about how MMOs have (not) changed in recent years. I'm not immune to this, if it isn't obvious, but it's pretty rare you'll find me speaking from the position of exclusivity/prestige. I'd rather people have more opportunity to experience all content and progress equally than locking things off to a small subset (because we make it hard for all the wrong reasons). It's not asking for something for nothing. It's asking for something to get that something since the something else doesn't really jive.

Finally, figuring out how games work isn't an issue for me, and I'm not afraid to ask or look into something if I don't know. Not everyone is like that, so I also need to be willing to teach to the receptive. I won't hesitate to kick troublemakers in environments where it's possible, but sometimes people are a nuisance outside of direct interaction. And we're still kinda helpless on that front, too, as I don't believe individual blacklists lead to fixing problems, it just ignores them. Anyone who thinks removing stuff like LFG tools will make a game community better isn't looking at it from the right angle.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#21 Aug 13 2016 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,104 posts
If you find WoW's rotations difficult at this point you're just a terrible player. Which is fine, play the game how you want. Those players shouldn't be catered to though, especially to the detriment of everyone else that knows what they're doing.
#22 Aug 13 2016 at 9:50 PM Rating: Good
***
3,712 posts
BrokenFox wrote:
If you find WoW's rotations difficult at this point you're just a terrible player. Which is fine, play the game how you want. Those players shouldn't be catered to though, especially to the detriment of everyone else that knows what they're doing.


It was to show the juxtaposition and illustrate how all sorts of different people of all skill levels play these games.

But I guess I know which side you fall on.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#23 Aug 13 2016 at 11:48 PM Rating: Good
****
5,723 posts
Also, those statements are sort of both true at the same time. Blizz removed a lot of buttons, but in many cases what's left got more complicated.
____________________________
75 Rabbit/75 Sheep/75 Coeurl/75 Eft/75 Raptor/75 Hippogryph/75 Puk
75 Scorpion/75 Wamoura/75 Pixie/75 Peiste/64 Sabotender
51 Bird/41 Mandragora/40 Bee/37 Crawler/37 Bat

Items no one cares about: O
Missions no one cares about: O
Crafts no one cares about: O
#24 Aug 14 2016 at 12:01 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
*****
12,810 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
I've mentioned to you before that generalizing is basically always wrong. "People keep wanting SE to..." is too broad. Some dude on the forums wanted SE to nerf something he or his static couldn't handle. That's a far cry from an entire userbase making a demand, and frankly you're never going to get an entire userbase to agree on anything... ever.


Which lies the problem: Even if it's "some dude"...SE, namely Yoshi, listens to said player more often than not. Take Amdapor Keep (normal), it was by far no where near a hard dungeon. Yet patch after patch people complained and complained for it to get nerfed more and more because they simply didn't want to deal with mechanics. This is why I "generalize" and largely why I say between playing with both playerbases, you truly do notice things. For example in comparison, Amdapor Keep complaints on the JP side were largely bosses had too much HP for that point in the game's progression since it was related to acquiring a relic weapon, so the dungeon itself was seen as being "too buffed" for how weak we were.

Complaints on the NA side largely fell in the realm of "things hit too hard" and "the adds on demon wall makes the boss too hard" which is why you get the "elitist response" of "you shouldn't even be seeing hornet spawns" because realistically, it should indeed be dead before the hornets spawns. Even in the early days you normally could kill the demon wall shortly after the hornets spawned or you killed the hornets then went back to the wall but that seemed like the most impossible thing to do, which of course lead to AK being nerfed about a good 4 times during ARR lol.

Pharos too got hit with the nerf bat even though it too wasn't hard which again came down to people not wanting to do mechanics. It's not even about the learning curve comparatively, it's about flatout refusal you run into a lot. The only legit complaint was the gear it dropped (old 1.0 Darkhold gear) was far too low ilvl for the dungeon difficulty.

Then came Steps of Faith. You not only had NPCS YELLING AT YOU WHAT TO DO, but the boss largely ignored you meaning maybe you should focus on what the NPCs were saying to get through it? People were flooding the forums begging for nerfs because yeah it walled storyline, but why not earn the story, like every other FF game? People literally just had to work cannons and a dragon killer and you won...but somehow that was just....so hard. It's hard not to generalize a playerbase because you could say "a lot of people in general complained" but it would be sort of wrong because it really is apparent which playerbase tends to do the most complaining about stuff lol. People say SE never listens to anyone but the JP...but honestly, they listen to the JP far less than anything because the bigger playerbase is the NA+EU playerbase combined.

****, on a more relevant note, the Midas Savage nerfs ****** everyone off who did it because while it was a nice change overall, they;ve NEVER nerfed raid content DURING the actual raid cycle before, which means above all they do indeed listen to "very few people" because really no one openly complained about Midas, especially not Midas 5 and 6, at least none who were able to actually get through it. You mostly had people who couldn't do mechanics (notice pattern?) complain the most.

That's why you see the saying "it seems like people don't want a challenge" because something that technically isn't a challenge, seem to get nerfed pretty frequently. **** look at how quick on NA/EU's OF you seen people pushing for Weeping City and Final Steps nerf during the first week lol. It wasn't even the typical "no one knows how to do it" because gear wise, you technically outgear it because upgraded Eso and Lore gear has already been LONG established, it was just people not wanting to learn the content for quite awhile. That's why if you do it now you'll see people do it extremely smoothly or horrendously and it all comes down to mechanics and not because they don't know it either because you can't have multiple pieces of Weeping City gear and not know the mechanics, because that means you've done at least 2-3 weeks of it to learn the easy mechanics.

Quote:

Y'know what it signifies pretty clearly? That people are different. Different people at different skill levels with different experiences and different expectations want different things out of a game.


Which above all is why they need to go back to the format of making content where people are expected to actually IMPROVE if they want to complete it rather than pandering to the type of people who would sooner quit if something is "too hard". Not saying it in a bad way as I know that would be money walking out the door, but honestly, this game doesnt really give you a reason to "get better" or "learn how to play" with most of its content because by chance there is a type of check like DPS or such, good chances you're paired up with enough people that can carry you through it. We've all been in those Titan HMs where 5/8 people die to dumb mechanics or fall off and you have a tank and healer or two basically chipping away for the next 30 minutes carrying the whole team. Same with alliance content, if it wasn't for VERY specific mechanics, ONE party could actually clear the majority of Weeping City, there's just mechanics that require more than 8 people to properly do or else, well you don't even need more than a single party. This is why up until 2.5/3.x the game's content setup was perfect because you could actually go in order and improve as you go because the difficulty actually ramped up slowly - Coil was the ultimate end-game but you could still get gear in order to tackle it outside of coil because EX primials (especially Shiva and Ramuh) and Syrcus Tower/World of Darkness provided not only alternate BiS pieces but a stepping stone of fights with having to work together far more than Labyrinth for example.
____________________________

#25 Aug 14 2016 at 12:17 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Even if it's "some dude"...SE, namely Yoshi, listens to said player more often than not. Take Amdapor Keep (normal), it was by far no where near a hard dungeon. Yet patch after patch people complained and complained for it to get nerfed more and more because they simply didn't want to deal with mechanics. This is why I "generalize" and largely why I say between playing with both playerbases, you truly do notice things.


Hio, most of your generalizations are extremely loaded and/or completely absurd.

No, SE doesn't listen to said player "more often than not." SE does what SE wants, and changes to the game have reflected the wishes of the full spectrum of gamers. Hardcore players complained that Coil was too easy, so then we got Coil 2. Then midcore players complained Coil 2 was too hard (while casuals still couldn't complete it), and then we got Coil 3. And then casuals were satisfied with story mode in Midas while the hardcores got Savage Mode. And since then, Savage Mode has been adjusted based on outcry from the hardcore players.

Do you hardcores get everything you want on a silver platter at the end of a red carpet? No? Well boo effing hoo. Neither does anyone else.

Also, remember that your experiences in FFXIV are not normal. I've already broken down the data in past posts. You play on the one JP server that has a "high" raiding completion rate (which is still ridiculously low for content you say is stupidly easy, especially on your mega-awesome JP server); all the other JP servers are right on par with the completion rates on NA servers. Hardcore endgame raiders make up a silver of this game's playerbase, and for you to repeatedly project your biases from such a skewed perspective is bonkers.

Quote:
Which above all is why they need to go back to the format of making content where people are expected to actually IMPROVE if they want to complete it rather than pandering to the type of people who would sooner quit if something is "too hard"


No, no, no. Just no.

As we've covered repeatedly in these forums -- and as you should have known before you became emotionally invested in 2.x and beyond -- the relaunch of XIV was not designed to be a hardcore game. The game already has enough hardcore-oriented eight-man content. We need a more diverse endgame scene so that people who don't like hardcore raiding have more reasons to stay engaged.


Edited, Aug 13th 2016 11:27pm by Thayos
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#26 Aug 14 2016 at 1:48 AM Rating: Good
****
5,723 posts
Theonehio wrote:
Complaints on the NA side largely fell in the realm of "things hit too hard" and "the adds on demon wall makes the boss too hard" which is why you get the "elitist response" of "you shouldn't even be seeing hornet spawns" because realistically, it should indeed be dead before the hornets spawns. Even in the early days you normally could kill the demon wall shortly after the hornets spawned or you killed the hornets then went back to the wall but that seemed like the most impossible thing to do, which of course lead to AK being nerfed about a good 4 times during ARR lol.

I always laugh a little when you make statements like this. Maybe your amazing JP server really is just that amazing, but you and I seem to remember 2.0 very differently.

The boss should be dead or close before the adds even spawn? Sure, for raiders in i90 gear maybe. Not so much for the random DF party where everyone is only i50ish with maybe a couple pieces of darklight. Between the adds and the time limit that boss could be literally unkillable depending on gear and party comp (if you had 2 BRDs you didn't have stuns to stop Final Sting and didn't even get an offensive LB.)

People didn't want it nerfed because "waaaa, I'm too lazy to kill adds." The wanted it nerfed because it was actually overtuned compared to the rest of the dungeon.
____________________________
75 Rabbit/75 Sheep/75 Coeurl/75 Eft/75 Raptor/75 Hippogryph/75 Puk
75 Scorpion/75 Wamoura/75 Pixie/75 Peiste/64 Sabotender
51 Bird/41 Mandragora/40 Bee/37 Crawler/37 Bat

Items no one cares about: O
Missions no one cares about: O
Crafts no one cares about: O
« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 121 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (121)