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#102 Aug 29 2016 at 6:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
And I'm not really undermining ****. I poke at the hornet's nest of the hardcores because they're a ridiculously sensitive bunch terrified of the casual boogeyman traipsing onto their turf.


See, "hardcore" players aren't sensitive. They're not the ones constantly saying they don't belong in the game or "this game doesn't need you or your kind" and other stuff like that. If anything "hardcore players" are the ones belittled the most. The only reason you'd see progression players "terrified" is because no one likes to see a game dumbed down continually to suit people rather than having said people improve, you know?

WHY is it such a bad thing to GET BETTER at a game you play or expect the players to improve as they go? This is a phenomenon only seen in the FFXIV community. Even the most casual MMO you can think of the players strive to get better rather than ask for the game to get easier. So it's fine to poke at the hornets nest, but realize it's not them that sensitivity, when you finally get challenging content, how fast is it nerfed or how often do you hear:

"This isn't accessible to your playerbase, only 0.5-1% of your players can even do this content" despite parsing Sephirot Ex weapons shows no less than 52700 people have at least 1 seph weapon obtained. If the playerbase is "500k" active that means 10.5% of the playerbase obtained a seph weapon.... And yes, people do say "ex primals are inaccessible." So while 10% is low, it doesn't account for the people who cleared it and got no drops or the people who turn in/break down primal weapons. So I understand what you get at with the "poking" but when you think about it, "casual" players aren't the ones that get brushed aside or ridiculed.

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Training dummies, as Hio brought up, don't teach you how to play well. They just sit there and accept damage. If players are supposed to be learning specific rotations we come to consider standard, then the game needs to be teaching that itself. And if you can't pass a specific task relative to that knowledge, then certain content should remain locked.


They don't - But they do teach you your rotation. Sky, Sea, Stone or whatever has a set HP% based on the balance for your job for that specific content. If you cannot destroy it in the time allocated, your rotation is terrible. If you go from not being able to destroy it to destroying it as you improve your rotation...

CONGRATULATIONS!

You learned how to DPS on your job. They don't teach you the mechanics, however, you learn how to maximize your DPS while dealing with mechanics, but you have to take the first step and actually learn how to play the job you're on first. I said it before but I'll say again, if you're doing less DPS than me as an actual DPS job, you're doing something horribly wrong.

Common response?

"you're hardcore"
"you're an elitist"

Rather...the fact I do 1200+ DPS on DRK kind of simply says I just know how to play. A game designed around ilvl and soft dps checks (every content has it) is very easy to maximize. If you don't care to maximize, more power to you, but realize:

the 'sensitive" ones you're talking about are elitist more so than hardcore players.

I don't give two ***** if you want that ilvl240 piece with boring stats, this game has boring itemization. However, if you're going to toss challenging content or only 1 set of end-game content (based by definition) every 6-7 months..make the rewards worthwhile if you're just going to hand out better/same gear at the same time. For example obsoleting Nidhogg Ex with EXTREMELY casual content in the same patch. That should never happen. I don't even care that it's an alternate, it's the fact they literally obsoleted a set of content.

This game needs more content, not less lol.
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#103 Aug 29 2016 at 8:36 AM Rating: Excellent
Hio, being called a hardcore player isn't an insult, at least not when I point it out. Same as when I say certain people might be happier in other games. That isn't an attack. It's a logical conclusion. You shouldn't take that as a put-down.

Edited, Aug 29th 2016 7:37am by Thayos
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#104 Aug 29 2016 at 5:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Hio, being called a hardcore player isn't an insult, at least not when I point it out. Same as when I say certain people might be happier in other games. That isn't an attack. It's a logical conclusion. You shouldn't take that as a put-down.

Edited, Aug 29th 2016 7:37am by Thayos


I always figured the logical conclusion was to hope and push for SE to improve the game (and by improve doesn't mean get rid of hard content or continue to make it worthless to do), since that's all people ever did during the XI and prime DQX days instead of telling people they shouldn't be here, but times have indeed changed, it wasn't viewed as 'weird' or 'bad' to hope to see players improve rather than cry until SE makes everything faceroll.

I don't see it as an "insult" it's more the context that it seems "hardcore players" are simply just tagged as such because they actually do this game's content. It's not like people are saying go low man Vagary or VD Shadow Lord + 3 Beastmen King fight (good ******* luck lol), that would make you hardcore and honestly, amazing. We're talking about content that you can master if you take the time to learn it rather than brush it off because you can...die...in it or find it punishing because you mess up...mechanics...rather than being able to shrug off every mechanic. I mean go into Shiva Ex Or Ramuh Ex or any older mid 2.x content that isn't coil and notice how people just gives no ***** about mechanics and powers through everything lol. At least it's what I seen when I'm working on my alt on NA datacenter, so while you are much stronger now than you were before..the fact people largely push to ignore mechanics (that can still wipe you, btw) kind of shows what people truly prefer. Savage isn't for everyone, but even saying going back to coil difficulty gets met with "NO!"

Even Yoshida said it himself, it's largely the people who go for World First that are the main ones clearing the harder content because most people who raid, did coil and went into Savage Alexander expecting to be able to at least do it..boy were we wrong. When the ONLY thing a top JP raid group can say when they hit A3S was "Fu*k" you know something is wrong.

As for being happy in other games...no MMO is designed for longevity these days, they're designed for short term profit gain. If it survives, cool! Good chance their main profit comes from a cash shop though.



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#105 Aug 29 2016 at 7:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Part of the problem is the presumption that everyone's play environment is the same. Someone can't do a particular piece of content? It's totally their fault. These are the types of hardcores I rib at, because the refusal to accept why certain things aren't working is just perpetuating all the bad. Not everyone has an awesome guild/linkshell with enough bodies to reliably tackle a certain piece of content (repeatedly). Not everyone happens to play the in-demand classes, which may allow some wiggle room in personal skill/gear. Not everyone's life affords them the ability to set aside multiple nights a week exclusively and without risk of interruption.

Yet, we're just supposed to accept that they'll have to settle for a lesser experience. I'm sorry if me trying to point out the flaws in the system is undermining the devs, but it just seems like genre is paralyzed because change is scary or the few people who like it now might get their feelings hurt. I'm not terribly fond of relating this all to various social movements across history, as it downplays their own severity, but there are parallels to be drawn. Refusal to acknowledge problems, downplaying the plight of the affected, blaming for factors outside their control, the sky falling if the norm is tweaked, and just a general ignorance of the situation at large.

I have no issue with good players who also play a lot and are understanding about it all. Realistically, it's pretty rare to see them piping up on either side of the issue, perhaps in fear of alienating their peers. MMOs being what they are, though, it's also difficult to unite these like-minded players due to how server structure tends to play out. And when you factor in things like lockouts and RNG/grind, it's not surprising they don't help others as much as they'd really like. As I've said before, how games are designed will influence how we play them. MMO design has turned some people into real a-holes, or at least brought it out of them through the power of anonymity.
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#106 Aug 29 2016 at 9:41 PM Rating: Excellent
Two words: Wife aggro.
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#107 Aug 29 2016 at 10:41 PM Rating: Good
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Stop being so noob Thayos and put her in the kitchen where she belongs. :(
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#108 Aug 29 2016 at 11:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Ha ha. You laugh, but growing up no one would ever have eaten anything if my mother and I weren't around to cook.

True story: One time years ago when I was still living at home with my parent and my brother, my mother left town for a week or two on business. During that time I worked late one day and didn't get home from work til like 9pm. I asked if there was any dinner left and my father and brother just kind of stared at me because they hadn't eaten anything.
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#109 Aug 30 2016 at 12:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Stop being so noob Thayos and put her in the kitchen where she belongs. :(


Ha yeah, because this would go over so well!

Seriously, though, this is the kind of thing that Hio never thinks about. When you have family -- whether that's one spouse and/or multiple kids -- then you can't guarantee the same set hours to play video games each night. Even if you -think- you're free, it all depends on whether your loved ones need you when they get home.

And that's just one thing that comes up.

This whole ongoing argument is stupid, because obviously responsible adults with families and full-time jobs can't guarantee specific weekly video game schedules -- which is why static raid parties are becoming a thing of the past.

Edited, Aug 30th 2016 7:15am by Thayos

Edited, Aug 30th 2016 7:16am by Thayos
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#110 Aug 30 2016 at 12:48 AM Rating: Decent
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SE really needs to just add that third tier already. The execution that players are consistently failing to execute in XIV happens far more in WoW, but I don't feel like XIV's content is nearly as difficult. I think people could be happy with a hardmode on training wheels tier in XIV.

Actually, I think we should kill XIV. If you really think about what SE did with XI since XIV was in the picture, it would make sense. You'd get easy currency farming, you'd get abyssea style gearing/leveling areas and you'd get updated versions of old content. People would stop blaming progression, but still suck. I would come back for that.



Edited, Aug 30th 2016 3:10am by FilthMcNasty
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#111 Aug 30 2016 at 1:49 AM Rating: Good
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Ha yeah, because this would go over so well!

The sad thing is there are people who genuinely think like that and just telling your SO to eff off or consistently put off various RL things will end all a-ok. I mean, we can point to the hilariously ironic log-in message about XI here, and while it means well, the culture just grew to ignore it.

I had "fun" explaining why I don't use voice chat programs to people the other day. My folks are creeping ever-deeper into the elderly/handicapped side of the spectrum, which inevitably fuels my unpredictability of access. Can't wear a headset because I won't be able to hear them. Can't really have anything loud going on for the same reason. What it really boiled down to was some being too lazy to simply type "/sea all linkshell" and be like, "Hey, wanna do something?" in chat. Because I do catch various groups just up and doing something saying they used voice to organize it even though I'd been sitting in-game for hours. Then they go on to complain I'm not as-geared, so can't really help, inviting the whole catch 22 of what Filth brought up earlier about people demanding achievement links. Those without aren't going to improve if you keep excluding them.
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#112 Aug 30 2016 at 3:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
I'm not as-geared, so can't really help, inviting the whole catch 22 of what Filth brought up earlier about people demanding achievement links. Those without aren't going to improve if you keep excluding them.

Proving grounds in WoW served as a substitute for players who hadn't yet raided but could still hold their own. IIRC SE was planning on adding(or already added) content similar to that. If there were some achievement or reward for the more difficult challenges it could serve as proof of performance.

Regarding voice... I'm in the same boat caring for old folks so I rarely call raids, but I'm always listening even if it is only one of my ears. I feel like things unravel more times than not in difficult content. The ability to call out adjustments to your strategy on the fly is all but necessary these days; especially when you consider that encounters are designed with that kind of efficiency in mind.

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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#113 Aug 30 2016 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Stop being so noob Thayos and put her in the kitchen where she belongs. :(


Ha yeah, because this would go over so well!

Seriously, though, this is the kind of thing that Hio never thinks about. When you have family


< Currently taking care of cancer ridden mother, hence why I'm even in america to begin with and can do only so few work projects while here. So it's not that I "don't think about it", it's because you hear every excuse in the book as to why people "aren't good." So trust me, I know full well how hectic play environments can be, but I also know this game in particular is designed for short play sessions, including end-game content, since the longest time you spend ever on content is learning it, then once you learn it and get an efficient flow going you tend to blow through content like nothing.

Or do we not remember farming ex primals for weapons and accessories and how battles tend to last only minutes?

Quote:
which is why static raid parties are becoming a thing of the past.


Which is why statics are largely a concept on NA/EU servers because that simply seems to be the culture. XIV's content base doesn't really require such, it just circles right back around to the game not pushing players to get better as they progress, so actual progression content tend to "require" a static.
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#114 Aug 30 2016 at 4:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Or do we not remember farming ex primals for weapons and accessories and how battles tend to last only minutes?


I don't buy that it's purely a cultural thing, because even on JP servers completion rates for various types of content are quite low. But to reference this quote, it might shock you that most players are never able to farm these battles because they're not able to learn the fights -- and that's a direct result of not having a good environment to do so. Part of that is the pressure to join statics because PF groups are so terribly inefficient (and sometimes downright hostile/exclusionary to people who need help).

So, no, I don't remember farming ex primals for weapons and accessories. I've never had that privilege. Even with my static, I don't have that privilege. The next primal on our list is Sephy Ex, and we've had members too busy over the past month to do anything but Weeping City or Aquapolis.

I'm still holding out hope that SE diversifies endgame and gives the game's actual playerbase more realistic endgame content.
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#115 Aug 30 2016 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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Or do we not remember farming ex primals for weapons and accessories and how battles tend to last only minutes?


I don't buy that it's purely a cultural thing, because even on JP servers completion rates for various types of content are quite low.


It's low because, as I've explained and as any actual raider would explain to you:

Most people that raided in 2.x, stopped touching XIV's raid content when we all hit the A3S wall. All it takes is a look at the Coil completion rates pre and post echo and compare it to pre and post echo alexander savage. not only did the playerbase siginificantly dip, but people didn't bother touching it again after that BS with the difficulty spike. 1 and 2 were no problems, you see the LARGEST drop off once 3 hits then even higher when 4 hits.

The same happened with Midas, 5 and 6 has the highest completion rates, 7 wall (it's not THAT hard but still a wall) then 8.

So using your words:

Quote:
it might shock you


That people just simply didn't want to bother with it and it has nothing to do with they "can't" clear it. Believe me, people can clear it, especially post echo, there's no reason to and Midas even less so and every catchup patch furthers negates the reason to do Savage alexander, unless SE pulls a 180 and realize "hey, maybe we should make better itemization!." This is why I said unless you actually raid you will honestly never know how things truly are. You can read as much as you want but until you're actually doing it, nothing becomes quite clear.

Quote:

So, no, I don't remember farming ex primals for weapons and accessories. I've never had that privilege. Even with my static, I don't have that privilege. The next primal on our list is Sephy Ex, and we've had members too busy over the past month to do anything but Weeping City or Aquapolis.


Which is why I feel it's just from speaking largely in your personal experience than observing the community. Because like I've said in the past, I don't just speak in terms of "what I do/don't do" I actually watch numbers. I actually do my own parsing. I record -everything- I do which is why I have a 2 TB HDD dedicated purely to XIV videos and logs from 2013 to now much like I have a 1 TB HDD dedicated to my XI and PSO2 stuff. So if you've never had that privilege, then I'm telling you now, that people farmed the **** out of EX primals, which is why if you miss the initial rush, good chance you "need" a static to do it because the "good players" for a lack of better term are usually done pretty quickly.

My only hope is they stop lying about no resources and money (the reports don't lie, which is why them talking about players I can see as a reason they want to be careful with resources) and go back to making content work with each other.

Also, as for the culture comment: NA culture is far less group (social) oriented in comparison to Japanese culture, which reflects heavily in MMOs, even Yoshida said it in the same interview you read, because it's expected that you pull your own weight even in a group setting, which is why JP DF is well known to be far better than NA DF because over on NA side, people have no trouble queuing up DF into content for blind runs whereas JP DF people expect if you queue you're there to clear it and you'd use PF for practicing. So what I was meaning was you always state "static this" "static that"..you never hear that being the "norm" when playing on a Japanese server (they exist but the simple PF/DF differences alone makes it a lot less necessary) which means it's clearly just different cultures since YOU (an NA player) constantly states that you need statics to do even EX primals and perusing the NA OF, many others state this as well.

So I'm not sure what's confusing about that, since the "logical conclusion" is it's mostly NA/EU players who feel you need statics for every content which gives the wrong idea about this game's content overall.

Edited, Aug 30th 2016 6:45pm by Theonehio
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#116 Aug 30 2016 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
[quote]I don't buy that it's purely a cultural thing, because even on JP servers completion rates for various types of content are quite low.

JP completion rate for raids wasn't high on it's own, but it was definitely high in comparison to NA/EU... as was their story completion rate. Cultural or coincidental, the reasons don't really matter. The facts are that JP players are actually willing to challenge more content. The bottom line is that NA/EU players clearly aren't as motivated as JP players, whatever the reason(s).

This forum isn't the only place where the stigma of requiring a static and a ton of time and patience is being perpetuated. The same cannot be said of JP so we're left to speculate, but it puts the developers in a unique situation. How(or even why) would SE shift resources into creating other similar content when players choose not to participate in the content they're already getting? Content they already expected and knew was coming.

Honestly it's kinda embarrassing to see people complain about how hard it is to get into raiding. If you don't like it then you don't like it. That's fine, but we make ourselves look like kids at the dinner table who take a few bites, complain about a bunch of things completely unrelated to how satisfying a meal is and expecting dessert...
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Rinsui wrote:
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#117 Aug 30 2016 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
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And when you infer they're whining kids, of course they'll fight back.
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#118 Aug 30 2016 at 11:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Honestly it's kinda embarrassing to see people complain about how hard it is to get into raiding.


Credible.
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#119 Aug 31 2016 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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To be fair, it isn't hard to get into raiding at all, no matter the resistance this isn't FFXI. FFXIV was designed to be easy, it can't suddenly go from "this game is so accessible" to "this content is inaccessible to players." You literally only have to do a quest to two to access raid content in this game, the biggest requirement tend to be "complete storyline to x point" or "clear previous ex primal" which they later dropped due to complaints, not by the hardcore players or raiders or people already farming ex primals.

But by people who complained needing to clear Garuda > Titan > Ifrit > Leviathan > Ramuh Ex in order to access Shiva Ex, said people were indeed casual players. Which is why all ex primals after had no requirement of needing the 2.x primals cleared to acesss later ones, MAIN REASON Bismarck Ex was dead on arrival, because they didn't want to "wall" players from Ravana Ex.

Also, Final Coil overall completion rate pre Echo:

NA Average = 1.97%
EU Average = 1.91%
JP Average = 9.33%

Back when the player population per unofficial parse was around 770k. Breaking down the server averages, most NA/EU servers were sub 1% per server while JP servers were all 2-15%. That's just final coil, because no one cared to keep tally during Binding Coil and Second Coil aside SE, because the game was still fairly fresh and had hope. Then 3.0 happened and well, we seen that they're going to ride the same formula.

So unless JP version of FFXIV is completely different from the version NA/EU players play...then I'm not sure how it's too hard to get into raiding when the overall completion rate of JP servers shows otherwise. You're NEVER going to get extremely high completion rates because EVEN UNDER 40% OF PLAYERS DIDNT FINISH THE EXTREMELY ACCESSIBLE AND EASY STORYLINE TO BE READY FOR ISHGARD!

Since a common mantra around here is "think about players who xyz or only care for the story blah blah" and not even the majority of players did 2.55 because they were too busy wiping to Steps of Faith.

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#120 Aug 31 2016 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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FFXIV was designed to be easy, it can't suddenly go from "this game is so accessible" to "this content is inaccessible to players."


Most of the game is highly accessible. It's just the raiding that people struggle to get into either because they don't like it or their schedules don't allow them to progress efficiently.

When folks such as myself talk about how the game is accessible, we very clearly define that we're not talking about raiding.

And no, the ability to queue up for something in the DF doesn't make it accessible -- that isn't what any of us are talking about, and you should know that by now. To say that makes content accessible is like saying I have easy access to drive to New York because I have a car, money for gas and roads to get there (without thinking about other factors like needing a pet sitter, needing time off work, other commitments, etc.).

Edited, Aug 31st 2016 12:15pm by Thayos
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#121 Aug 31 2016 at 3:31 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
FFXIV was designed to be easy, it can't suddenly go from "this game is so accessible" to "this content is inaccessible to players."


Most of the game is highly accessible. It's just the raiding that people struggle to get into either because they don't like it


And that has nothing to do with accessibility. That's, as even yoshida stated, player choice. "Schedules" don't mean much when it's already been proven you don't "need" a static, raid content is like any other content in this game because once you learn the content, it's easy to do.

Sadly, yoshida confirmed 4.0 will keep the 3.0 format of "normal" and "savage", no "third tier" or "branched" content, "Savage" may be easier though.



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#122 Aug 31 2016 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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And that has nothing to do with accessibility.


Only it does.

Which is why they're keeping Normal Mode, because Yoshi recognizes that barely anyone does the hardcore version.

Yay for normal mode! And also, hopefully they make savage easier, too. My static might eventually do a raid that's on par with how coil was. (Fun fact, though, tonight we're doing coil to get wins for the several members who could never get wins back when coil was relevant.)

Edited, Aug 31st 2016 3:48pm by Thayos
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#123 Aug 31 2016 at 5:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
And when you infer they're whining kids, of course they'll fight back.

The analogy was framed the way it was because children don't have the option to go out and work to earn money to buy whatever food they want to eat. There is an expectation that while you're a child your parents will provide for you. It's not a jab at age or maturity.

I just don't like seeing all of the completely unrelated excuses as to why players 'cant' raid when in actuality they just choose not to. Just like there is a difference between complaining and whining, there is a difference between can't and won't.

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Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#124 Aug 31 2016 at 5:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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I just don't like seeing all of the completely unrelated excuses as to why players 'cant' raid when in actuality they just choose not to.


Well obviously, people choose not to.

But that's being very liberal with the concept of choice; it's also being somewhat tone-deaf to how people actually want to spend their time in the game.

I mean, you're right that literally nothing is stopping people from raiding. We all have access to the Internet, the client, a mouse, keyboard (or gamepad) and the duty finder, raid finder, whatever.

So... why aren't more people raiding? And why are clear rates so abysmal?

You and Hio seem to be blaming this on players rather than developers for pushing a form of endgame that most people find to be 1) a waste of time without a static and 2) not fun. And you also seem to be giving a pass to SE for not being innovative and finding better ways to create a more inclusive form of endgame.

Once again, the data is on my side. So few people are raiding that the dev team is keeping the normal/savage split. They know that even "coil-level difficulty" isn't going to be appetizing for the bulk of the playerbase.

Seriously, it's time for this dev team to think outside the box regarding endgame. This is a fair, important criticism of this dev team, and I actually think it's kind of funny that you've chosen this as the one thing where you'll repeatedly stick up for SE.

Edited, Aug 31st 2016 4:41pm by Thayos
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#125 Aug 31 2016 at 8:58 PM Rating: Decent
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It's not surprising or funny. It's predictable really.

There are fundamental ideas which people will defend to the death regardless of what evidence is brought before them, and the motivation of doing so is simple: People defend what they enjoy, even if it is imperfect or upsetting them at the time. Because an uncertain dramatic change will always seem worse off than a idealized past experience, even if what you currently experience now only faintly resembles that.

Rather a rotting carcass hoping for a return to the 'good ole days' than leaping blindly into a future you may completely reject.

You'll see this sort of fandom happen in other FF games, defending titles from the detractors even if the criticism is valid, simply because they enjoy it enough otherwise.

Suffice to say, it's not that I don't think that Hio and Filthy are not entitled to their opinions - I just summarily dismiss that opinion as antiquated, and disagree that the notion improving upon a system that is fundamentally showing heavy fatigue across the boards is preferable compared to a complete breakdown and re-assembly of said systems while integrating many of the ideas that have given rise to some of the most popular games in other genres.

One of the best ways to win in a contest of well established front-runners is to not compete on their terms, but to take the chance and strike your own way.

In this case I think FFXIV is both well poised and capable of doing so by 5.0 - if they were to dismiss the surface level assertions of a shrinking interest base and look deep at what really attracts players of all kinds.
#126 Aug 31 2016 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
You and Hio seem to be blaming this on players rather than developers for pushing a form of endgame that most people find to be 1) a waste of time without a static and 2) not fun. And you also seem to be giving a pass to SE for not being innovative and finding better ways to create a more inclusive form of endgame.

Who else fault would it be? A new player I can excuse, but you Thayos? You have been here for years. You've seen this game from it's initial concepts through it's changes. This really should come as no surprise to you.

Thayos wrote:
Seriously, it's time for this dev team to think outside the box regarding endgame. This is a fair, important criticism of this dev team, and I actually think it's kind of funny that you've chosen this as the one thing where you'll repeatedly stick up for SE.

Yoshi and his team can't even maintain standard development pace with a single facet endgame. Do you really expect them to be able to create and maintain alternative endgame?

I'm not sticking up for SE. I simply realize how incredibly short-sighted it is to expect more than what they can promise. I also didn't want XIV to become a mediocre copy of any other vertical progression MMO on the market, but it's become what they said it would so I can't really fault them for that.

If you were really concerned with how this game has evolved then you probably should have joined me on the boat all those years ago instead of taking up your shield in blind defense. Reap what you sow. I shouldn't, but I do pity you. I think that you actually realize that being critical of something is borne out of a desire to see something succeed, but I realize that it's probably too late now. Unless of course you're still waiting on that miracle patch...

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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#127 Aug 31 2016 at 11:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Hyrist wrote:
I just summarily dismiss that opinion as antiquated, and disagree that the notion improving upon a system that is fundamentally showing heavy fatigue across the boards is preferable compared to a complete breakdown and re-assembly of said systems while integrating many of the ideas that have given rise to some of the most popular games in other genres.

One of the best ways to win in a contest of well established front-runners is to not compete on their terms, but to take the chance and strike your own way.

In this case I think FFXIV is both well poised and capable of doing so by 5.0 - if they were to dismiss the surface level assertions of a shrinking interest base and look deep at what really attracts players of all kinds.


Very well said. Couldn't agree more, especially regarding the first part.

Filth wrote:
If you were really concerned with how this game has evolved then you probably should have joined me on the boat all those years ago instead of taking up your shield in blind defense. Reap what you sow.


This makes no sense.

I enjoy most of FFXIV. I just don't think SE is smart to invest so solely and heavily on raids as the only real form of progression endgame. You and I are on boats that are floated in completely different ways.

Filth wrote:
I think that you actually realize that being critical of something is borne out of a desire to see something succeed


Of course! This is common sense. And I've been consistent on my criticisms of FFXIV (ARR and beyond) for years now. I've also been realistic with my criticism, where you have not. While I've lobbied for changes that could actually make the game better for people who enjoy it, you've been vague and all over the map regarding what you want and how it would actually benefit people who play the game.

In fact, for much of the past year you've done nothing but trash the game's playerbase while offering no real constructive, meaningful criticism at all.

Filth wrote:
I shouldn't, but I do pity you.


Huh? Why? It's a video game, dude.

And if you'd engage your noggin for more than a couple seconds, you'd know why I'd be perfectly fine if the game shut down tomorrow. That's exactly why I like this game and don't want to deal with another horizontal grind fest.


Edited, Aug 31st 2016 10:32pm by Thayos
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#128 Sep 01 2016 at 12:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
I enjoy most of FFXIV. I just don't think SE is smart to invest so solely and heavily on raids as the only real form of progression endgame.

What specifically are you talking about when you say SE should invest in other forms of progression? Vertical and Horizontal are the standards but you go on to say.:
Thayos wrote:
I like this game and don't want to deal with another horizontal grind fest.

AFAIK, raiding is what you do in vertical progression so I'm not certain what you're asking for if you clearly don't want a horizontal shift...

Edited, Sep 1st 2016 2:47am by FilthMcNasty
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#129 Sep 01 2016 at 5:48 AM Rating: Good
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AFAIK, raiding is what you do in vertical progression

Which is the problem a number of us have been trying to emphasize. If you can't/don't want to raid, your progression potential plummets. And the whole "The hardest stuff should have the best stuff!" is part of the antiquated thinking. "Well, you don't need the gear if..." can be met with the simple fact more casual content could actually be created with higher gear demands.

So, how could things happen?
- Improved crafting.
- Sensible quest chains.
- Rewarding open world events.
- Hunts being more low-man friendly with varied spawning conditions.
- Treasure maps being less about a fight and more about legitimate exploration/discovery.

Stuff like Diadem and Deep Dungeon could technically be included, perhaps with revamps as needed, but I could also infer to stuff like personal chocobos and leveling/training retainers eventually mirroring XI's Trust system. Basically, a lot of this stuff already "exists" in some form within the game, but their ceiling is capped low because people are afraid of the RMT, someone no-lifing everything in a few days/weeks, raiders feeling pressured to "do it all" to keep competitive, and the fear that no one would actually raid if they didn't have to.

That last one is important because it'd emphasize the reality of the current paradigm. With exclusivity removed, you discover who really finds it fun and who is exercising that loaded choice about how far they'd like to grow their character.
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#130 Sep 01 2016 at 7:55 AM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
And that has nothing to do with accessibility.


Only it does.

Which is why they're keeping Normal Mode, because Yoshi recognizes that barely anyone does the hardcore version.


Incorrect:

Quote:
At this present we are confirmed to go with Normal and Savage format as the specifications for 4.0 as well. Since we have made it this far, there are many players who were happy with this setup and thanks to normal mode there are players who normally didn't get into this type of content in the Bahamut days, but interest in Savage content have since then increased, and that's the current situation we are seeing here. So we would like to remain this way. We also understand that this setup has contributed as a huge step up to a lot of the players.


In HIS OWN WORDS, the interest increased, because it means PARTICIPATION levels increased due to having a "story mode" which was further true for Midas as it is easier than Gordias. This is why I said unless you raid you will never see how things truly are. So in the guy who runs the game's own words, they're happy with the setup, hence "the formula won't change", not because "barely anyone does the hardcore version", you want to so believe that simply because the CLEAR rate is low. Everyone who doesn't sit around saying "it's too hard" "you can only static it" "there's no accessibility" are busy clearing the easier floors of it. Remember, NOT EVEN THE MAJORITY of the playerbase did the storyline prior to 3.0 and THE MAJORITY isn't even flagged for 3.4 yet, that would mean the storyline content is inaccessible too since the clear rate is low based on how accessible the content is to you, like any other content.

But like I said, playing in a culture that constantly says you need statics for even easy content like ex primals, I guess I can see why you'd believe accessibility is tied to scheduling.

Quote:
You and Hio seem to be blaming this on players rather than developers for pushing a form of endgame that most people find to be 1) a waste of time without a static and 2) not fun. And you also seem to be giving a pass to SE for not being innovative and finding better ways to create a more inclusive form of endgame.


The problem is.

1. You do not need a static, stop saying this.
2. "not fun"

You're not allowed to say this when you've literally said in many topics "what's fun for you might not be fun for others", so you can't use "fun" as a argument on what the developers should/shouldn't do.

PoTD isn't fun, so they really shouldn't waste more time with that content. I guarantee I'll get told otherwise.



Edited, Sep 1st 2016 6:59am by Theonehio
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#131 Sep 01 2016 at 8:39 AM Rating: Excellent
Hio, you aren't making sense.

My two points about why people dont raid are valid. Yup, what's fun for some isn't fun for everyone, and a large number of people don't find raiding fun. You can't argue against this.

And yes, many people don't raid because they can't do it efficiently without a static. This is also a fact. Yes, certain people such as yourself don't mind doing it inefficiently, but then we're backto to what is and isn't fun. Many players don't find rapid-fire death sessions with a bunch of Randos who aren't prepared for the battle to be fun.

If raiding were really as universally fun and as accessible as you say it is, then more people would raid and fewer would leave the game.

So why don't YOU stop telling me to stop stating the obvious. Sorry if my pinpricks are hurting your bubble.

And you are also taking extreme liberties with yoshi'S words. In another part of that interview, he specifies the raid community among JP players as having grown, and that being the reason for maintaining raids. He isn't talking about across the board. Nor does he specify how large this subgroup of players is. And looking at the low completion rates on JP servers and the game's retention issues, I promise that growth is minimal.

Nevermind that the sentence before the one you bolded implies that far more people do the normal mode. And did you really need Yoshida to tell you that?

My points stand.

Raiding is yesterday's news. The data shows it. Yoshi knows it. We both know it. Time for SE to innovate in ways described above or like I've done in the past. At least normal mode opens up the content so large numbers of people actually do it. Otherwise all those resources really would be wasted.

And regarding PoTD, that isn't endgame and has nothing to do with this convo, although now I'll be expecting a frantically written wall of text from you trying to say otherwise.

Edited, Sep 1st 2016 7:54am by Thayos

Edited, Sep 1st 2016 7:55am by Thayos
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#132 Sep 01 2016 at 11:52 AM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:

Nevermind that the sentence before the one you bolded implies that far more people do the normal mode.


Actually, as per the original JP text, it implies more people are gaining interest in doing the "Savage" content (as in the actual raid content) because the normal mode introduced them into "end-game" content as said:

Quote:
and thanks to normal mode there are players who normally didn't get into this type of content in the Bahamut days,


whereas the ones who didn't didn't do coil didn't have an "introduction" tier. That's why they're keeping both normal and savage even for 4.x, or else they would have actually done the "third tier."

Quote:
and a large number of people don't find raiding fun


Yet in your words you stated they should stop creating content people don't find fun. Yet there's plenty of people who find the raid content and ex primals fun even if it gets repetitive when it's the only content left to do. Which goes back to my point of PoTD, a lot of people were disappointed with it and don't find it fun at all but if you so much as say "they shouldn't waste time on it" you'll get told otherwise, as you pretty much proven.

Quote:
If raiding were really as universally fun and as accessible as you say it is, then more people would raid and fewer would leave the game.


Fewer people would leave the game if the game itself was better, don't try to say Raiding is why people quit this game. Trust me, I also play on THE MOST social NA server (Balmung) and I know plenty who left for reasons far, far away from raiding.

You read the OF and probably FB and Reddit groups too you know full well a lot of people get bored quickly with every patch being the SAME THING over and over.

Quote:
And looking at the low completion rates


Here's your problem. There's low completion rates of people completing STORYLINE quests. Something EXTREMELY ACCESSIBLE to EVERYONE. So no, there's no "liberties taken" other than you simply wanting to believe so badly raiding is the cause for this game's issues.

Quote:
Raiding is yesterday's news. The data shows it.


Per server the data show storyline completion is also "yesterday's news" - let's get rid of that too. The data isn't accurate until SE reveals HARD numbers, because unofficial parsing uses a method that doesn't count everyone.

Once a week Minion.
Once a week Mount (if it even drops.)

Who's to say the person even uses said mount or minion item? You already lose numbers and thus skewed %.

You're extremely biased against harder content, which is fine.

Edited, Sep 1st 2016 10:54am by Theonehio
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#133 Sep 01 2016 at 12:14 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Yet in your words you stated they should stop creating content people don't find fun.


I never said this in the context you're implying.

Quote:
Fewer people would leave the game if the game itself was better, don't try to say Raiding is why people quit this game.


Never said that, either.

Quote:
You read the OF and probably FB and Reddit groups too you know full well a lot of people get bored quickly with every patch being the SAME THING over and over.


EXACTLY!!!!!! YES!!!! God, Hio, it's like you can't see the forest through the trees.

Quote:
You're extremely biased against harder content, which is fine.


What???

Blah, deleted the rest of my post. Hio, stop putting words in my mouth! You're being a dweeb.

I'll keep calling you out for lying or taking people out of context -- whichever term you prefer -- but I'm going to stop dignifying your posts with actual rebuttals until you start being honest. This has gone on long enough already.

Edited, Sep 1st 2016 12:20pm by Thayos

Edited, Sep 1st 2016 2:44pm by Thayos
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#134 Sep 01 2016 at 6:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
And the whole "The hardest stuff should have the best stuff!" is part of the antiquated thinking. "Well, you don't need the gear if..." can be met with the simple fact more casual content could actually be created with higher gear demands.

I don't really see how this would be considered antiquated at all. Working harder to earn more is something that's universal across more than just gaming.

Players in NA already don't PUG nearly as much as JP. Changes like you suggest here would make it much more difficult to find out if players you're inviting to your groups are vetted. How do you discern whether or not a prospective group member has any sort of tested experience? If raid tier gear is restricted to players who raid, you at least know that person was able to execute the mechanics of a given encounter.

I don't think it's a leap to say that this would push players more toward the 'must have a static' mentality since knowing the players you're grouping with is the only real guage of performance. I don't think that's your intent.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#135 Sep 01 2016 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
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AFAIK, raiding is what you do in vertical progression

Which is the problem a number of us have been trying to emphasize. If you can't/don't want to raid, your progression potential plummets. And the whole "The hardest stuff should have the best stuff!" is part of the antiquated thinking. "Well, you don't need the gear if..." can be met with the simple fact more casual content could actually be created with higher gear demands.


It doesn't even need that. Raiding right now technically doesn't need raid gear. It's an absolute misnomer due to the fact that the current raiding system relies upon moving goal posts of combat stats, relying upon relative power crep to continually push the player's performance down compared to the monster's stats. Palace of the Dead proves that such progression could be simply done in-house with a system similar to how the silver chests work. All raiding gear does is make the rest of the game seem easier to the players who already think the rest of the game is too easy, while doing nothing to make the game see more fun in return.

Again, this is a self-depreciating system all around. Anyone who says otherwise is blind, worse, they're defending a system designed to sap fun out of them. Progression should be about building up, not stripping down.
#136 Sep 01 2016 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
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I don't really see how this would be considered antiquated at all. Working harder to earn more is something that's universal across more than just gaming.

Earn more, sure, but not a monopoly. That's the rub.

MMOs are in the unfortunately unique situation that you have to rely on other players for the harder content, and that's more a matter of design than necessity. While you're stuck thinking people who don't deserve whatever will be fooling those who want quality players, it's just as possible a higher personal gear level (and collectively across the group) can help mitigate ***** ups on mechanics. And if mechanics don't even allow that, well, whether or not the content is designed well is another matter entirely.
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#137 Sep 01 2016 at 8:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
MMOs are in the unfortunately unique situation that you have to rely on other players for the harder content, and that's more a matter of design than necessity.

It's a multiplayer game Seriha. You have to rely on other players by design and by necessity. It doesn't matter who either of us thinks is deserving of gear. The idea is that the content is balanced so that defeating encounters is proof that you're deserving.

This is also why I asked if SE had implemented their version of WoW's proving grounds. Even if I didn't have the achievement for already killing the boss of the raid I wanted to join, I could still prove to whoever was leading the group that I was deserving of a spot. That's really the only person you have anything to prove to unless you're running the group yourself.




Edited, Sep 1st 2016 10:37pm by FilthMcNasty
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#138 Sep 02 2016 at 12:43 AM Rating: Good
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Putting incentive for content is one thing, promoting exclusivity of content is another. Raids don't need to be alone on top loot wise for it to be worthwhile. Honestly most raiders are going to want to raid regardless of the loot table involved. They want to have the best gear primarily for bragging rights and to entice others to try raiding to keep their numbers populated - That alone should tell you that they're aware of the turnover rate of participation. (Sadly, those who are not interested in raiding won't be drawn by such things, and do feel disenfranchised by a narrow endgame, probably part of why there was a larger drop off this lul cycle.)

But there will always be the problem of raid structure problems. Fewer people these days than ever really have the time to dedicate to raiding. Not so much in the effort or skills department - but in the logistics of it. THE most called for feature in Destiny is a Raid finder. The highest participation base in any MMO is the difficulty raiding that allows you to queue for pugs, in spite of the terrible reputation pugs get.

The most popular game genres right now feature drop-in play, even when they're heavily multiplayer. These days accessibility is the default formula for success.

The trick is balancing that with content longevity. SE's not too far off the mark with that right now, it just needs more methods of doing so, as gear right now is more akin leveling than an actual collection, like in horizontal progression games. Again I feel like contextual skills that share the five skill limit of our secondary/subclass skills would potentially add a lot of depth to our current mechanical, teamwork, and progression systems that is sorely needed at this juncture - especially if they come with a built in leveling and progression system. As far as Gear progression. I feel like if they had given raid tier gear to floors 101+ of Deep Dungeon they'd have something good on their hands there.

Diadem needs a content rework, but I don't feel as if their focus of using it to provide crafting materials and materia leveling is too far off. They'd have to fundamentally change it from the ground up to make it raid-level and I'm not sure that's a worthwhile venture at this point, given how most players will still view it as damaged goods even after a revision.

Anyways, lots that can be done here. We're never going to agree on what should be done. We're just too divergent in philosophies.
#139 Sep 02 2016 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Palace of the Dead proves


Actually, Coil and Ex Primals in the 2.x era proved it long before PoTD did. You geared up through multiple venues and you got rewarded as you progressed through the raid content with even better gear, you didn't do raids JUST to get the better gear as the only way to get said better gear is to do raiding in 3.x era.

Which even then the gear is worthless when they hand out better gear every update so in reality, raiding is perfectly fine, they just have to go back to the Coil format.

Quote:
All raiding gear does is make the rest of the game seem easier to the players who already think the rest of the game is too easy, while doing nothing to make the game see more fun in return.


Mostly because you're actually applying yourself and having to worry about mechanics in raid content, versus literally standing around and doing nothing in other content, especially alliance content. How many people do you see sneak out before the barrier goes up or suddenly "afk" everytime you're past trash mobs? They get rewarded with an easy 230 piece and ability to upgrade lore gear to 240..meanwhile raiders have to actually learn content, clear content and hope they get the drop or spend 20+ weeks getting books to buy the gear they want...for inferior gear.

So in comparison, how could you not realistically see everything outside of raiding easier and less fun? **** we get an easy, slightly challenging (easy to wipe) primal they obsolete near instantly for PoTD by offering the same reward for SIGNIFICANTLY less work. So sadly, Sophia will be obsolete within the first 2-4 weeks of the PoTD update unless they push it back further. People hated gear lasting forever in XI (though no one complained about that until vertical progression started becoming the norm and only really complained that the gear clashed in design), but XIV 3.x-4.x gear is barely lasting at all in some cases.

Throw in the fact 3.4 introduces EASIER to obtain 250 crafted pieces...like...every even patch is a reset when it shouldn't be.

Quote:
Progression should be about building up, not stripping down.


That's why raiding content exists. You're building up - However XIV players largely don't want to improve themselves in order to tackle harder content. People use the excuse "RESPONSIBILITIES" for not doing raid content...

Then will have an excuse for not doing "harder" ex primals....

There's an excuse for everything, which is why in the end we should just really be honest and say people just want things handed out to them because there's an excuse for everything.

"Go back to coil era where you could gear through tomestones and ex primals then tackle Coil and use the rewards to clear the higher turns and get rewarded with a cool story that literally ties together 3 storylines."

"NO! NO ONE HAS TIME FOR THAT!"

"Okay, use ex primals..."

"NO! YOU NEED A STATIC FOR THAT TOO"

"Okay..make Diadem Hard Mode drop the high ilvl gea..."

"NO! THAT'S PLAYER EXCLUSION! NO ONE CAN DO HARD MODE!"

And so on so forth. There's very little you can do without basically admitting that people don't want any kind of challenge, even Yoshida admits this because he said floor 101+ is WORTHLESS outside of bragging rights, meaning the one hope for PoTD being a good alternate just went out the window.

And Thayos..
Quote:
If raiding were really as universally fun and as accessible as you say it is, then more people would raid and fewer would leave the game.


English isn't my first language but this is literally saying that people wouldn't leave the game if the raid component was better, which means essentially you're linking raiding to the reason people leave the game, so I wasn't incorrect in my statement. Raiding is accessible to everyone unless someone can show me a screenshot where it says you're not allowed to do the content after you've unlocked it.
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#140 Sep 02 2016 at 11:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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People use the excuse "RESPONSIBILITIES" for not doing raid content...


I got this far and just couldn't go on.
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#141 Sep 02 2016 at 11:31 AM Rating: Excellent
Hyrist, awesome post. I was looking for part of it to quote, but it's all pretty good.

There's a lot of truth to what you say about XIV's vertical progression being much more like leveling than gear collecting. In a perfect world, perhaps that's an area where SE could make the game more interesting? Like instead of regularly moving the goal posts by resetting tomestones, dungeon gear, basic iLevels, etc., what if the advancement of iLevel wasn't quite so uniform? What if RNG played more of a role? What if a new patch scattered higher iLevel drops across different types of content? What if, periodically, there were ways to craft higher iLevel gear using items from much older content?

EDIT: I don't expect anything like that ^ to actually happen.

I agree, there are many ways SE could make the "leveling" process through itemization more interesting. And there's enough infrastructure in the game now to really get creative. We've got Deep Dungeons, Aquapolis, maps, Diadem, tons of old dungeons...

The one thing this game is still sorely lacking is another form of true endgame other than raiding. And it's not just about having content to engage the masses of players who don't like raiding, but also to give raiders something to do when they've cleared their raid tiers (or hit a wall due to difficulty or a lack of players for their statics)

In FFXI, I was always partially motivated during endgame events by how the items I earned would help me/my linkshells in other types of endgame. In XIV -- where raiding is really the only show in town -- there's really none of that. Yeah, gear helps marginally in different fights, but we all know success is more about memorizing mechanics than having good gear.

The silver lining is that XIV is a great MMO to play casually. Over time, my once-per-week static will accomplish more than the average player and nearly as much as many groups that can play more often, and we're less likely to get burned out (*cough cough Hio*). Shame, though, that the game can't do better to engage more people. Folks like me would definitely play more often -- and I'm sure many more would remain subscribed year round, and not just at patch time -- if they actually had more to do other than grind easy dungeons with Randos.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2016 10:47am by Thayos

Edited, Sep 2nd 2016 10:48am by Thayos
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#142 Sep 02 2016 at 3:52 PM Rating: Default
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Hio, no offense, but you're talking out of your ***. Making accusations on the player base that doesn't exist. If Players 'diddn't want to improve' they'd never get past the 24 mans. It's as simple as that. What you state is absolute bull and nothing short of it.

There are, a very rare subset of players who absolutely don't want to improve at all. They probably seem larger to you by comparison because they likely comprise the same overall numbers as raiders. Most players, however, are willing to learn mechanics, work as a team, and learn a fight.

What they don't want is to straight out memorize sixty different mechanics over the course of two months while being saddled with what is effectively a second work schedule. I don't know how this hasn't gotten through to you in three years of Thayos explaining it aside from you flat out being disrespectful to the perspective and the facts behind it. The majority of people simply don't have the time to be not doing content in order to even start getting a static together. Let alone having a regimented time schedule.

I for one certainly don't lack the drive to better my skills (aside from the limits of carpel tunnel beginning to set into my wrists). But from the time I get home to the time I have to go back to bed for work in the morning, I've got five hours on a week day, total, between getting myself fed, making sure everything's taken care of in the house (with a disabled SO and multiple pets, no less) and anything else than FFXIV. And one of those days is already taken up by a weekly table-top night my SO and I do together.

Just how am I going to fit in the daily roulettes multiple days a week for me to cap currency each week, let alone the gilmaking necessary to keep up with the consumable costs required for me to raid effectively? Let alone finding the two days a week open to raid -and before you say weekend days, I'll have to remind you that house chores do need dedicated time as well to keep up.

For someone who has obligations, or even something as simple as one contrasting hobby and a work life - the way raiding is required to have attention to is obstructively cumbersome. If there was a way to, on my own, play at my own pace when I had free time and get the mechanics down without worry of other people messing up and stalling my own practice time out - I'd have no problems - because then I could hop in whenever I had a free moment to do so and train till I got it down.

But that's not how this system works. The system as it stands now might have worked in 2006. It flat out doesn't for me now. And the reward system in general just isn't enticing enough for me to squeeze more effort into the sardine can of my schedule.

I don't think I'm wrong for saying I want a valid endgame that I could jump into at my own pacing, without having the schedule time. There is a lifestyle out there that would benefit from that sort of option. Availability is not a question of skill or dedication. This is a video game, for crying out loud and it should be aware of it's place of priority in peoples lives. Exclusively rewarding those who decide it to be its only hobby to the alienation of everyone else is bad. Bad business sense, it's bad for communities and it's bad for the average skill levels of players to boot.

SE would be wise to get with the times.

This all said, accessibility is only one pillar of four that makes content healthy.

Accessibility, Longevity, Engagement, and Encouragement. When one or more of these are lacking, the content suffers and the players are discontent.

Raiding has decent engagement. But it lacks in encouragement and accessibility, and its method of longevity is antiquated. It really needs to be reanalyzed on how it can better meet these four keynote goals.
#143 Sep 03 2016 at 6:58 PM Rating: Default
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Oh, here's a good site to keep an eye on, btw as it "deep parses" for a minion that's accessible to everyone. https://ffxivcensus.com/


Hyrist wrote:
Hio, no offense, but you're talking out of your ***. Making accusations on the player base that doesn't exist


If you say so, OF proves otherwise though. Certain topics wouldn't exist nor be some of the most popular if I were indeed incorrect and many topics wouldn't spring up if players did want to improve largely. ****, even SE's failed attempt to try to help goes unused largely when it's a legit way to learn your rotation. I run a parser in every content I do via DF and PF, I can see the numbers. A DRG should not be under 1200 DPS ever, with as current gear as possible. Even missing key pieces I should not be outparsing you. There's even a site dedicated to showing parsing that gives you a VERY eye opening look at things...but people brush it off as "for elitist" or some ****.

Quote:
What they don't want is to straight out memorize sixty different mechanics over the course of two months while being saddled with what is effectively a second work schedule. I don't know how this hasn't gotten through to you in three years of Thayos explaining it aside from you flat out being disrespectful to the perspective and the facts behind it.


Ironically, every content in FFXIV requires memorizing mechanics in order to clear it. So what this says to me essentially is "players don't want a challenge", if the boss does only 2-3 mechanics..how is that challenging in any fashion? Let alone 2-3 mechanics that can't really kill you unless you absolutely ignore it?

Do you really not remember the cries for Steps of Faith to be nerfed when there's NO MECHANICS going out at all aside Visshap attacking the barrier and occasionally an AoE stun? The fact UNDER 40% OF THE TOTAL PLAYERBASE didn't get past that prior to HW's launch kind of says a lot, don't you think? It's not even "I just didn't want to do the storyline" because some content and dungeons requires you to do storyline and unless you absolutely don't care at all...well, further proves my point that players just "don't care" which means for example if you personally don't care for raiding, you're not going to touch it or bother to really keep up for it, same deal with the other players who "don't care" to even get through the VERY EASILY accessible content and VERY EASY in difficult content. That's not a tiny subset at all.

"Aside from you being disrespectful"

I'm not the one constantly saying "get out of the game" and "kick them to the curb" and "that style of content is dead so people wanting it need to move on"..when you really look at it, people are actually far more disrespectful to the perspective of the other players asking for challenging content and to actually have proper rewards behind it.

Seriously, you even have people use the word "Filthy casuals" when responding to them despite said person NEVER ONCE using that term or even insinuating that. Think about that.

Quote:
For someone who has obligations, or even something as simple as one contrasting hobby and a work life - the way raiding is required to have attention to is obstructively cumbersome.


So...people like me, who still completed every raid content in this game because this game is 100% about memorization and knowing how to play before anything. **** I'm even classified as casual because my playtime isn't even every day, let alone longer than 3 hours in the time I do play and I still manage to get things done.

The biggest issue, is indeed the players.

You either do, or do not attempt the content. NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL is preventing you from taking time to learn the harder content just like you took the time to learn the faceroll content. They're all the same. However, playing on the NA datacenter, as I said, despite the hate I get for it, I can see why the view is so heavily skewed, because quite honestly, there is a very big difference in play culture, even Yoshida said it, which people are legit trying to argue against the guy who can see raw numbers and actually watch the content statistics.

Quote:
Accessibility, Longevity, Engagement, and Encouragement. When one or more of these are lacking, the content suffers and the players are discontent.


And this is why Alexander is a failure, because the only reason it has longevity is because they tuned it absurdly high and the rewards are worthless outside of the weapon, which only drops from the final floor, which most casual raiding groups never make it beyond the first intermission.

THAT is why Coil format was perfect. Like Alexander it was EXTREMELY accessible (don't kid yourselves, nothing blocks you from accessing it), highly engaged (no serious progression raider would support enrage abusing tactics or sacrificing people to make mechanics easier, which is why A4S was ******* on) and getting a storyline and rewards that wraps up not only 1.x but ties into 3.x story was extremely encouraging of clearing it - which is why people complained so hard for a "story mode" without realizing the repercussions of such.

Quote:
Exclusively rewarding those who decide it to be its only hobby to the alienation of everyone else is bad.


Realistically, it rewards people who choose to do the content, yet people want the same rewards for less. XIV is just badly designed, it's not even the concepts because they worked when SE pulled ALL TEAMS to work on it during 2.1-2.4. PoTD should have NEVER dropped an ilvl235 weapon, let alone one that obsoletes most rewards from an EX PRIMAL...for doing almost no work at all.

So no one is wrong in wanting something better.,,it's just kind of ironic people can try to support GETTING RID OF PLAYERS and a content concept they personally don't like, but if the shoe is on the other foot..well, you only have to read some topics here to see what happens. There was honestly nothing wrong with the Coil+Ex Primal working together format, them spending additional resources on a "normal/story mode" is what changed everything for the worse. Yeah you're allowed to get your story...but it wasn't a good story at all, so raiders don't even give a **** about it like with Coil. When you finally hit Turn 9 then Turn 12 and Turn 13..that was absolutely amazing.

Hitting Floor 4? Eh. Hitting floor 8? Dear god kill me now.

Clearing Floor 8?

Yay gotta do this for another 20+ weeks! OH BOY OH BOY.
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#144 Sep 03 2016 at 8:50 PM Rating: Excellent
Hio wrote:
See, "hardcore" players aren't sensitive.



Mmmmhmmmm.
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#145 Sep 03 2016 at 10:08 PM Rating: Decent
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bluh

Edited, Sep 4th 2016 12:18am by Fynlar
#146 Sep 03 2016 at 10:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
THAT is why Coil format was perfect. Like Alexander it was EXTREMELY accessible (don't kid yourselves, nothing blocks you from accessing it),


You comparing the accessibility of Coil to Alexander is a friggin joke, and is pretty much exactly why people here are not looking at you as a "casual" player.

For actual casual players the difference is like night and day.

And no, the old system was not perfect, unless you consider storyline content too difficult to complete until it's way outdated / the following expansion has already hit to be "perfect". I, for one, do not.

Edited, Sep 4th 2016 12:16am by Fynlar
#147 Sep 03 2016 at 10:18 PM Rating: Good
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Perhaps the term "accessibility" is being taken the wrong way? Having physical access to content is not the same as it being accessible to players.

Accessible content is content that is readily completable by the average player (not the average raider and certainly not the average hardcore raider). Accessibility is also measured in degrees. T2 is more accessible than T5 for instance even though they unlock in the duty finder at the same time. T2 is more readily completable by an average player than T5 is.

Does that help clear this up?
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#148 Sep 04 2016 at 2:27 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, as Thayos tried to emphasize earlier, accessibility is more than just being able to click it in the DF or just walking up to some entrance and triggering it. The likelihood of completion is also a factor in determining whether or not it should even be considered such. And conversation from there just veers into the whole schedule, job of choice, static preference, and other factors we've beaten into dead horse territory.

The PUG scene for any content deemed difficult pretty much boils down to nobody ever really wanting to help people get good at it or even benefit, but instead take advantage of those who have already done so. Requesting ilvls above the prescribed minimum? Happens. Demanding linked achievements? Happens. Not wanting classes that aren't listed in some cookie cutter guide they view as gospel? Happens. Somewhere along the way, the thought of challenge has been confused for minimizing risk. And it's completely understandable no one would want to throw themselves at something for a few hours and walk away with nothing to show for it. Yet, the raiding scene seems content in arguing against their own self-interest because tradition or whatever. It's almost the same BS as the concept of the American Dream, where it's hella easy to say someone can be/do anything if they just tug on the ol' bootstraps and soldier on, but outside factors are constantly working against the individual, and not always out of malice.

These kinds of games, like society, are meant to grow and evolve. If you're starting off from the perspective there has to be winners and losers, then it's already game over. The thought that raiding should be "kicked to the curb" is more of a sentiment of experimentation. After all, this genre is proliferated with games that have been raidraidraid for years now. And there is a certain degree of hypocrisy there in refusing to acknowledge that people might want a different way to play and grow, as it's either conform or go away. So, if you truly feel that a bitter sentiment, well, welcome to how everyone who has tried argue against the system has felt. Fortunately, MMOs aren't as constrained as reality is when it comes to enacting change. Lord knows, though, the thought of some people I've played with over time possibly holding power over others is a scary, scary thought. And it's not because they couldn't get out the red.
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#149 Sep 04 2016 at 7:28 AM Rating: Good
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if the boss does only 2-3 mechanics..how is that challenging in any fashion? Let alone 2-3 mechanics that can't really kill you unless you absolutely ignore it?


I understand what you're saying Hio (and I agree with a lot of it) but this is why I often say that T2 and T7 were the best fights. They were fairly difficult (how many statics did T7 broke?) while only having 3 noteworthy mechanics. Though they were all one hit kill/wipe mechanics.

Personally I prefer that set up over grinding and memorizing each phase's setup. Repeating the same first phases over and over for two minutes of practice on the last phase before the inevitable wipe is what killed raiding to me, it feels very unrewarding and tiring.

The ideal to me would be WoW's setup of more bosses with fewer mechanics on the first half of the tier. So even if you get stuck somewhere, at least you're getting kills and progressing your character, motivating the party to come back next week rather than giving up due to unsatisfatory progress.
#150 Sep 04 2016 at 6:00 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
Realized it is indeed the "casual playerbase" that are sensitive based on this silly response


Smiley: nod

Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
THAT is why Coil format was perfect. Like Alexander it was EXTREMELY accessible (don't kid yourselves, nothing blocks you from accessing it),


You comparing the accessibility of Coil to Alexander is a friggin joke, and is pretty much exactly why people here are not looking at you as a "casual" player.


Because....both content are accessible if you're willing to put the time and effort into it rather than sit around and say it's too hard and not even bother. People have always said "Being casual doesn't mean you're bad or can't do content", so "casual" is a matter of convenience in an argument as I said. It's why I even said "Alexander failed" because in comparison to coil, they made a serious misstep in design due to the inclusion of story/normal mode, because the story itself wasn't worth much..which left one of the reasons people did Coil, for example, not present in Alexander Savage. So casual seem to have a broad range of definitions, since everytime the argument comes up, "time" "responsibilities" and "need a static" seem to always come up..which is funny, because I have limited time, tons of responsibilities and still managed to do this game's content because unsurprisingly, the content isn't that hard when all you're basically doing is reading from a script and the game's itemization is tossed at you compared to XI where you actually have to take awhile gearing before you can be useful in some end-game content based on job (no one wants a RDM that can't land debuffs.) So who knows what "Casual" actually means, other than to claim someone isn't casual because they do content in an easy MMORPG. Smiley: dubious

Quote:
unless you consider storyline content too difficult to complete until it's way outdated


It wasn't though. Nothing prevented you from clearing it just like nothing prevented you from completing the Ex primals, which people say is "too hard even for midcore players." People always wait until content is outdated to go through it, which is why SE forces us into older content and even forced us into older ex primals back in the day because when most people who could/wanted to clear it got all they wanted, no one touched the content leaving newer players (the ones who wait) hard up in terms of queues. Look at "Learning Party" party finders versus farming ones. At this point in time there's literally no reason to do Nidhogg Ex because SE handed out ilvl235 and 240 weapons, but a big problem is they lock new ex primals to server only, which depending on your server, heavily influences your views on content, which honestly makes sense, because if I solely played on Balmung for example, I too would think no one could clear ex primals or coil until nerfs and 50% echo.

There's got to be a point when we just admit content in general is just "too hard" for certain players because there's only so many tiers of content this game has that kind of leads the arguments towards 'people just don't want to bother with anything other than content that is extremely easy and want to be handsomely rewarded for it.'

Callinon wrote:
Perhaps the term "accessibility" is being taken the wrong way? Having physical access to content is not the same as it being accessible to players.

Accessible content is content that is readily completable by the average player (not the average raider and certainly not the average hardcore raider). Accessibility is also measured in degrees. T2 is more accessible than T5 for instance even though they unlock in the duty finder at the same time. T2 is more readily completable by an average player than T5 is.

Does that help clear this up?


T2 is more accessible because people came up with the strategy to completely negate actually fighting ADS by healing through enrage which even lead to Yoshida responding about it, which leads back to "there being mechanics." So instead of fighting the content which to this day is still the only branched encounter in this game (same end boss though) per design..people would rather kill only 1 ADS in the span of time you could normally kill 2-4 depending on people with you. So outside of Enrage, if "accessibility" is the ability to complete it by an average player, T2 wasn't accessible till enrage became the norm for pickups, so sadly..in terms of XIV as of today, "accessible content" for the average player...isn't a good outlook for this game because people still consider even Final Steps of Faith normal "too hard"...and since it's measured in degrees based on your example..

Gordias Savage 1 and 2 are easy.
Gordias Savage 3 and 4 are not.
Midas Savage 1 and 2 are easy
Midas Savage 3 is easy but mechanic heavy.
Midas Savage 4 is not.

The average player could clear Gordias Savage 1 and 2 since it's literally the same fight from normal with obvious changes (we all knew the fact there's 4 adds it was nerfed for normal mode) and the only other large change is baiting acid pools to NOT being on the boss..which means if people still chose not to do even the easier ones (A1/2/5/6 have the highest clear rates) then it comes down to players just not wanting to improve, which people take it in a bad way. For example A1 and 2 are a DPS check..it's basically 2 glorified trash pull encounter. This is why both are extremely accessible and why A3S got the hate it did and why it broke a lot of statics, because people COMING FROM THE COIL DAYS did 1 and 2 fine..then 3 just..was unnecessary. However, when we define "average player"..I naturally want to assume the average player knows how to play the game and their job because pretty much every content in XIV is designed as per yoshida's own words on an "overall dps goal", meaning if the raid DPS has to be 1000 to clear the content, it means everyone has to pull their weight, most other content in the game people tend to shoulder the weight of others, something yoshida said at gamescom himself whenever he sees another BLM "not doing well."

However, the fact Coil had PUGs even on NA servers shows just how accessible it was compared to Alexander Savage by large, which was my point. I've been watching since 3.0 on Balmung and Sarga and I can safely say, no one PUGs Alexander Savage, 99% of the time it's trying to REPLACE or recruit for a static but not a straight up PUG **** I've only seen 6 Savage learning parties between 3.0-3.3, compared to my main's server which has quite a lot more pugs for content people keep saying "you need a static for."

So I guess it comes down to what people mean, in their own words, what an "average" player is, because people still wipe to Ravana Ex to this day and he was easier than Bismarck Ex by design since he spends most of his time charging attacks (it is a Waltz after all) but you have people who can clear Seph Ex and still wipe to Ravana simply because Seph has a very limited rotation of mechanics (much like Titan) that he repeats until auto-wipe.

Quote:
I understand what you're saying Hio (and I agree with a lot of it) but this is why I often say that T2 and T7 were the best fights. They were fairly difficult (how many statics did T7 broke?) while only having 3 noteworthy mechanics. Though they were all one hit kill/wipe mechanics.


Fights like these I loved, but they didn't need more mechanics considering messing up shriek or voice even once was gameover, which is why statics broke a lot in T7 from what I hear on Sarga. T8 was the wall for many "Casual raiders" and T9 was probably the best designed of the first 2 coils because it mixed everything (mechanics, dps check if you want to make your life easier and party coordination.)

Oh and as a side note on the whole "disrespect thing", you have certain people on the OF even saying raiders have "stockholm syndrome"..so I don't think anyone here is in the right of saying I'm "disrespectful."



Edited, Sep 4th 2016 5:16pm by Theonehio
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#151 Sep 04 2016 at 7:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
After all, this genre is proliferated with games that have been raidraidraid for years now. And there is a certain degree of hypocrisy there in refusing to acknowledge that people might want a different way to play and grow, as it's either conform or go away.

Mechanics in MMOs these days are pretty streamlined. Stack in a certain area, spread out, interrupt a dangerous spell or ability, dispel or cleanse a debuff...ect, do a certain amount of damage within a window of time... ect. The scale is different(size of area or damage/healing done), but the concepts are not at all new.

It's not the games that are antiquated, it's the mentality. If you're only doing normal content than sure, you can look at is as 'we wiped' or 'we won'. As you start to transition into more difficult content however, you should realize that the steps you make along the way from wipe to win are more meaningful.

I was pushing mythics in WoW during the WoD expansion and honestly, I never really considered wipes a bad thing. If I got to the second phase, I felt accomplished. When getting to phase two was consistent and we were pushing close to phase three, I felt accomplished. Phase four? Check. Boss at sub 10% health? **** yeah!

Too much focus on not getting a kill rather than focusing on how much further you're getting this week as opposed to last week.


Edited, Sep 4th 2016 10:07pm by FilthMcNasty
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