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#77 Aug 22 2016 at 11:39 AM Rating: Excellent
I think we are on the same page, Hyrist. I'm just saying of Yoshida is going to cling to raiding, then he might as well do it right.

And Hio, Yoshida clearly isn't speaking for all players in those posts you made. He is referencing the raid community, which the data shows is quite small.

Also, Hio, your argument that you can't be hardcore because the game isn't hardcore is completely flawed -- and you MUST know this. To better show why your argument is flawed, let's turn this around on make it applicable to me.

I'm a pretty avid runner. For a 37-year-old, I'd say I'm hardcore. I don't just run around my neighborhood, I'll actually drive one to two hours to go running on long, mountain trails. I'll do things that are a bit risky, such as try to run from my place to downtown Portland (20 miles away). I'm actually just about to head out and by some stability shoes to help me run through a small flareup of tendonitis, ha. Doing a long-distance relay later this week and hopefully a full marathon in early October. I watch what I eat and often plan my sleep/diet around running. So, yeah... hardcore.

A few weeks ago, I did a little 5k fun run in downtown Oregon City (took eighth overall, my first-ever top-10 finish). It was definitely NOT a hardcore run. The field was far from elite, and the course was quite difficult (lots of steps and uphill, not what you'd expect from a well-known 5k where people go to set PRs).

Does the fact that I ran in a 5k fun run make me any less of a hardcore runner? **** no. I still prepared for it as I would any other race, I ran just as hard, and my training/recovery regimen didn't change one bit. I prepared/ran just as I would for anything else, because I'm a hardcore runner, and that's what I do.

You're a hardcore gamer. It's crystal clear. Just because you're playing a game that wasn't designed for a hardcore audience doesn't diminish the fact that you're hardcore.

And that's not a criticism -- it just doesn't fit with your arguments here, so you deny it.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2016 10:52am by Thayos
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#78 Aug 22 2016 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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I think the question that remains, and therefore still the subject of debate is " right by who?" You and I may side with appealing to the majority. However, we have standing evidence right here on how quickly the majority is belittled and misrepresented - regardless of any baring in the realm of fact or reality.
#79 Aug 22 2016 at 8:16 PM Rating: Good
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That's really where SE or any other MMO dev holds all the cards. We can correlate our experiences all we like, but the moment anyone has a different one, there's conflict. Instead, they're capable of comparing people who've had active accounts after a certain piece of content's release and find out just how many cleared it. This is certainly important in gauging whether or not something needs nerfs or the reward system improved for the sake of expediency (often in part due to gear antiquity).

Now, you're far more likely to see midcore/hardcore people posting on forums like this or the OF. If time to play is limited, it's not much of a stretch that wasting time to Forum PvP is off the table for many. Meanwhile, you've got others who wanna be right even if being right is an entirely subjective matter. I won't profess immunity to this, instead reminding that I favor enabling content for more players than just focusing on a few. Especially so when said few only want whatever for negative reasons. There's a frequently made assertion that casual players are less knowledgeable about the game they play (as if "this is not fun" is non-viable feedback to some--remember, game, not job/work/chore/etc.). This goes on to the rhetoric about being lazy, wanting handouts, never listen, blah blah blah. Hio can dig up all sorts of complaint posts and be like, "THIS IS HOW IT REALLY IS!" when you've gotta stop and think those are just a small handful of people in a community of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of players. And you simply can not forget the fact some do it solely to be antagonistic.

I white knight for the casual, in part, because I do fall into that demographic from time to time, but also because a large number of friends I've made over time would qualify, too. It also "needs to happen" because silence has a bad habit of correlating to assent in this genre, and I don't believe "Quit if you don't like it!" is enough to send a message. So, the sooner these games are less about affirming caste systems, that there's only one right way to play, the better. Everyone understands that tough mobs who need lots of people to down can be fun. The rub is that some don't want to accept people want more than that, even going so far as to claim it would hurt their experience. Carrot, stick, etc.. And a little less worrying about people we'll never interact with are doing.
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#80 Aug 23 2016 at 3:28 AM Rating: Decent
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but after all, you're a lot more "free" here as it only takes 1 report to get you banned from the OF if someone feels slightly upset.



That has GOT to be a myth. I've gone back and forth with people over many pages on the OFs and not once have I ever been banned. And perhaps that just means that most people on the OFs are reasonable and aren't personally offended by what I say.


It isn't a myth. I'm permabanned off the XI forums solely because I posted something unpopular, not even offensive or rule-breaking, and I'm far from the only one that has suffered this same fate. I don't know if the XIV forums are modded by the same people but I have heard similar sorts of reports.

Generally if they nuke a thread due to it getting too heated or something, they'll just ban the people in it that were either the most frequent contributors, or the most reported ones. I don't feel like they even actually look at the content of the posts, they just look at the reports/outcry.
#81 Aug 23 2016 at 8:13 AM Rating: Excellent
That is so weird. I guess I am incredibly fortunate! I don't post there often, but when I do, I definitely hold my ground if wrongfully challenged.
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#82 Aug 23 2016 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
is belittled and misrepresented


Oh that's just precious, clearly the "majority" are the ones being told should be kicked to the curb and "don't understand how the rest of the players play." **** you can't even admit to being a casual player without, well, you can see what happens. In your words of "reality", people ridicule and misrepresent raiders the most, especially the XIV community. I mean, really look at the subject at hand. Normally people knew the difference between "elitist" and other players, which is why I've always said you normally get a certain attitude from elitist, which people lump everyone into. But clearly not "all casuals" are the same since apparently I'm not casual despite fitting all definitions besides the fact I actually do content in this game. What's the difference between my 1-3 hours a day (not even every day) and someone else's 1-3 hours a day? The fact I choose to do every content in this game rather than shake my head and refuse to do things? o.O

Thayos wrote:
That is so weird. I guess I am incredibly fortunate! I don't post there often, but when I do, I definitely hold my ground if wrongfully challenged.


It's literally in their rules you can be banned if you do what I did in a few responses ago and posted a picture that simply showed someone's player name. The biggest issue with OF is they're inconsistent. You can load up plenty of topics and see people go at it hard, but if you say anything against XIV even if it's as simple as "this game is boring" you'll not only get attacked by the typical white knights, but you'll also likely get reported and thus trigger a ban, which isn't moderated, it's part of the software based on how many reports you get.

They THEN review it which is when people get permabanned or not. I know because the modified software SE uses the company I work for currently uses.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2016 10:50am by Theonehio
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#83 Aug 23 2016 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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You can load up plenty of topics and see people go at it hard, but if you say anything against XIV even if it's as simple as "this game is boring" you'll not only get attacked by the typical white knights, but you'll also likely get reported and thus trigger a ban, which isn't moderated, it's part of the software based on how many reports you get.


Like I said, either I'm fortunate or I haven't been banned because I don't word my posts as attacks on other posters.

I've criticized the game plenty on the OFs though, just as I have here. I've especially criticized endgame, Diadem, "early pullers," the lack of FC content and SE's inability to retain new players. I've also called out people who distort the facts for the (alleged) purpose of trolling. Even then, though, I don't resort to namecalling or other juvenile tactics -- rather, I just take aim at what they've actually said and point out how it's wrong.

(Note: Nor have I ever reported anyone on the OFs, even when they resort to namecalling and what not. In fact, I've only ever reported one player for harassment in-game, and that was a guy in a DF party who started using racial slurs toward another player because of his name.)

Just like here, though, I don't shy away from controversial subjects on the OFs, and nobody has complained. Lucky and/or fortunate. I'll take either one.

And Hio, you're not a casual. Heck, I wouldn't even call myself a casual, and you're certainly more hardcore than I am. As I said up above, just because you're playing a game not designed as a hardcore haven doesn't make you less of a hardcore player. It just means you're out of your element, which is a probably a big reason why you don't like so many elements of the game -- which is what I've been saying for months, really. I think you'd be happier in a more hardcore game. But if you have friends who insist on playing XIV, and if you're just tagging along with them, then I understand your frustration.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2016 12:08pm by Thayos
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#84 Aug 24 2016 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
And Hio, you're not a casual. Heck, I wouldn't even call myself a casual, and you're certainly more hardcore than I am. As I said up above, just because you're playing a game not designed as a hardcore haven doesn't make you less of a hardcore player. It just means you're out of your element, which is a probably a big reason why you don't like so many elements of the game -- which is what I've been saying for months, really. I think you'd be happier in a more hardcore game. But if you have friends who insist on playing XIV, and if you're just tagging along with them, then I understand your frustration.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2016 12:08pm by Thayos


No, but one of the "requirements" of being casual is having limited playtime. I don't play any longer than most casual players I know or read about that get classified as casual. That's why I asked what makes my 1-3 hours a day different from someone else's 1-3 hours besides the fact I actually choose to do other content than sit around and say it's too hard or inaccessible. I don't think the fact I can clear easy and scripted content makes me hardcore, especially when you can't consider someone hardcore for clearing Hard Mode dungeons because they're tagged "Hard Mode." My "Frustration" comes with the fact they had a perfectly fine raid design that just needed the difficulty to be upped (Coil), because it not only had a better story (which Yoshida admitted at Gamescom), but the raid design was far better.

Otherwise, this game doesn't really have hard content. A game designed around ilvl strictly is going to always be in a weird spot because once you're at a particular ilvl, everything is like encountering a slime in Dragon Quest, however prior to that, everything will seem like walking outside of a starting town and bahamut suddenly laying waste to everyone - you stand no chance.

The reason I don't like many elements of this game is because: They're poorly done. No matter how much someone may want to defend this game, they were not hiding the fact they were building it after WoW and heavily inspired by WoW.

yet WoW did the systems better. It's not even because the game was designed on the PS3 because FFXI has better systems and it was designed in the late 90s. When you look at the game as not just a player, you really sit and think:

"Do they come up with these great ideas then decide how they can ruin it?"

A lot of systems literally are so good in concept and initial implementation until you hit the "Okay what the ****" part of the system, for example weekly lockouts or REMOVING loot because you SO MUCH AS DARED to help someone else clear after you've cleared it. That's just the proof that the system isn't really designed for concurrent players which is why I always said, and get ridiculed for, that if they seriously think keeping the same formula will work a 2nd time for them with 4.0, they're in for a big surprise. There's plenty of people who perfectly love XIV, but 3.0 woke a lot of people up to the way this game really is. So while difficulty and whatnot may change for 4.x, if they keep the same format just with swimming added and it serves NO PURPOSE WHATSOEVER to content despite being one of the focused elements, then I don't know what to so say.

Even XI incorporated elements of the game into the dungeons but then again, XI's dungeons weren't literally hallways people complained about with FFX/X-2/XIII. ****, if XI had flight you can guarantee some of the dungeons would have been designed with it in mind, I sit and look at HW and see not one dungeon where you have to fly through it or realistically use the flight mechanic for anything other than faster travel, which is fine, but I do remember yoshida saying something about a grand aerial battle, probably against Shinryu, but somehow I'm doubting that since unless there's a sudden "NOPE DRAGONSONG WAR AIN'T OVER YET!" I don't see us having an encounter with any more dragons...

I mean, Weeping City could have been perfect for flight (since it's the last alliance based content of 3.x unless they going to "delay" the expansion again) as there's CLEARLY numerous paths designed in the ..well, city, but we're stuck in one hallway. Which I've said before and I'll always say because of the sheer hilarity of it, but people used "Long hallways" as a reason to hate the XIII games but praises XIV's content design which is literally one long hallway with vendors on the side to enter instanced content. I don't know though, I get ridiculed for it but it's very easy to see that Yoshi and SE knows they don't have to do much to keep people happy. I'm not a person who complains about a cash shop as I actually play and have played many MMOs, but the sheer fact they could have introduced a lot of the Mog Station elements as content rewards, actual content, proves it.

Same with the primal birds/ponies. What prevented them from using the Golden Saucer to introduce battles where you can win them instead of forcing us into 99% obsolete content? The Golden Saucer from VII had a battle arena where you obtained rewards based on points gained, so you'd assume that would have been a feature. Like I said, my "hate" for this game's elements is they really don't seem to be trying with a lot of it as so many other games, their own 2 other MMOs included, does things better that this game should do FAR SUPERIOR in every way.



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#85 Aug 24 2016 at 11:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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No, but one of the "requirements" of being casual is having limited playtime.


Totally not true.

I had friends who pretty much LIVED in FFXI, and they were some of the most casual players I knew. You see, it goes both ways. People who play more often are more likely to be hardcore, while people who play less often are more likely to be casual -- I believe these things are often true.

HOW you play matters more than how often you play. It matters even more in FFXIV, which is a game that literally wasn't designed to be played for long periods of time.
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#86 Aug 25 2016 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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Simmer down, you're all filthy casuals.
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#87 Aug 25 2016 at 12:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
HOW you play matters more than how often you play. It matters even more in FFXIV, which is a game that literally wasn't designed to be played for long periods of time.


Which means in the end I was correct. "Casuals" are the ones complaining every content is too hard because they choose to not "git gud" as Yoshida himself said? Since there's really only 2 styles of gameplay in XIV:

Those that actually choose to learn how to play the game
Those that just choose to get carried or learn nothing beyond how to hit 123 and sit around and say every content is inaccessible because as a 60 dps with lore gear they still pull 100 dps under level 50 numbers. (Not even being snarky here, at ilvl 220+ you should not be dpsing under 700 when it's proven and designed for every content for dps to pull around 1200+ minimum given the overall party dps numbers needed to clear certain ex primals and savage.)

There's no in-between, and if you read the latest famitsu interview (http://www.famitsu.com/news/201608/26114162.html ), even Yoshida said it's heavily black & white when it comes to player gap (as a tl;dr on that section) especially compared to the level 50 days because jobs changes quite a bit once you hit 60.

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It matters even more in FFXIV, which is a game that literally wasn't designed to be played for long periods of time.


Indeed, which is why every piece of content is exactly the same and seriously won't continue to work because sooner or later your playerbase will get fed up, we've all seen it in the extended time between between 3.0 > 3.1, so regardless if the game is meant to be played or not for long periods of times matters not when you run out of things to do. There are some people who don't go through all of the story in the same patch cycle, but if you play for any period of time, especially longer than an hour, unless you purposefully avoid doing it, you can get through this game's story, especially on a new patch, extremely quickly, without skipping text.

Take for example 3.2 and 3.3, that had the fewest actual MSQ addition, people still aren't done with it simply means they're CHOOSING not to do it, and if CHOOSING not to do something = Casual, then indeed I am not casual, but the fact I took the time and effort to learn how to play the 3 main jobs I do and more than capable of clearing content, simply makes me competent, not hardcore, because if this game was XI where you can go off and solo ADL prior to ilvl on jobs that aren't PUP and BST, that makes you hardcore, but in a game where content gives you so many hints, telegraphs and handholding for 99% of its content? Can you really consider anyone hardcore outside of people who run for world first every even 6-7 months?

Also:

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Totally not true.


Every time the argument crops up on any forum, people almost always state "Don't have time"...so...

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#88 Aug 25 2016 at 12:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Which means in the end I was correct. "Casuals" are the ones complaining every content is too hard because they choose to not "git gud" as Yoshida himself said? Since there's really only 2 styles of gameplay in XIV:


This is called moving the goal posts. It has nothing to do with the fact that you can be hardcore and only play up to a few hours per day.

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Can you really consider anyone hardcore outside of people who run for world first every even 6-7 months?


Yes, for reasons I've already explained enough.

Edited, Aug 25th 2016 11:28am by Thayos
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#89 Aug 26 2016 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Simmer down, you're all filthy casuals.

I'll have you know I took a nice, long shower this morning!

As for the "time" debate, it also boils down to how efficiently the time you have can be utilized. For those who don't have to wait for queues due to readily available friends, you can get a lot done in 1-3 hours. For others, simply waiting to play can be the brunt of your play time, itself. I'd nitpick that if you're playing every day, especially for at least 3 hours, you're probably not actually casual.

"Can I do XYZ whenever I'm in the mood to?" is another aspect of it. Someone who plays at a server's peak time will have a different experience than one who doesn't, for example. And that's one of my bigger issues replaying XI at the moment. If I miss the 8pm-11pm EST window, I may as well be looking for stuff I can solo since the JPs won't want my gaijin *** later in the evening.

Edited, Aug 26th 2016 7:46pm by Seriha
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#90 Aug 26 2016 at 8:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
I'd nitpick that if you're playing every day, especially for at least 3 hours, you're probably not actually casual.


Yeah, which is why I always say it gets confusing when people say "limited time" is part of being casual, then all of a sudden if you happen to fit that category "no no, wait that's not casual at all!" As if the "casual" argument is just more of a convenience thing rather than actual reason as to why they can't do content ("I don't want to or not skilled enough" is perfectly ok to admit.)

Considering the alt I play most that's on NA datacenter is on Balmung and I noticed quite a lot of people play far more than 'hardcore' players yet they don't actually do content most of the time. **** they play more than I do which depending on my current progression is usually 1-3 hours a day every other 2-3 days since it takes almost no time at all to get 450 lore (it really doesn't) and considering 99% of this game's content base is casual and honestly hands you the gear if you actually take the time to learn it, really hard to consider anyone but world first runners as hardcore players since most raiders that came in from 2.x did Coil, which wasn't "hardcore" in any shape or form, since Coil had the higher PUG rate and even strategies that the "casual gamers" thought up because no progression raider would ever support an enrage method of clearing content when you can clear the same encounter 2-3 times in the time it takes to do 1. That's why A4S was so controversial because one method is literally to kill yourself, that's terrible design.

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"Can I do XYZ whenever I'm in the mood to?" is another aspect of it.


Which is why even Yoshida says in terms of the JP populace it's not really a matter of "Casual/Hardcore", because with XIV IN PARTICULAR, it literally comes down to your personal choice, not because you define yourself as "casual" or "raider" because all of a sudden people want ilvl235 weapons but didn't want to do Nidhogg Ex and now people want ilvl240 weapons and still somehow can't pull more DPS than tanks. It's depressing all around honestly.

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#91 Aug 27 2016 at 10:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
Which is why even Yoshida says in terms of the JP populace it's not really a matter of "Casual/Hardcore", because with XIV IN PARTICULAR, it literally comes down to your personal choice, not because you define yourself as "casual" or "raider" because all of a sudden people want ilvl235 weapons but didn't want to do Nidhogg Ex and now people want ilvl240 weapons and still somehow can't pull more DPS than tanks. It's depressing all around honestly.


Nail on head.

I mean, I guess we could pick an arbitrary number of hours spent participating in 'endgame' events, but people have different goals and differing amounts of time to spend grinding toward them. For perspective, I have as much time now in a week to play as I used to spend daily back then.

I wouldn't consider myself 'hardcore' by general measure but based on how much of my free time I do commit and how much more focused it is on making progress, I'd say I'm more hardcore now than I ever was. That and the discrepancy between what grind used to mean and what it means today...

I think that the underlying issue in assembling groups that players don't like is more a cause of a shift in mentality rather than poor development. Players these days have far more tools to take advantage of the social aspect of the game, but they choose not to. I guess that's why I'm not really sympathetic.
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#92 Aug 28 2016 at 1:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's mainly why I've been so big on the "type" of endgame that's available. Because when you get down to it, if the PUG scene dictates harder content maybe sees a 1 in 3 clear rate (or worse), you're not going to be wild about participating in that content the Nth time when it's supposed to last 3 months or more. Reasons for failure will include first-timers simply not knowing what's up, people who DO know what's up not bothering to instruct, people who quit or play half-assedly when the group isn't vets, and people who just generally think others will pick up their slack regardless of their personal skill and gear level. On the other end, you'll have some who think they do know what's up, but give bad instructions or not know how to adapt (if DPS is lacking, for example). The ragers suck, and make it difficult to really want to reward their behavior by trying to tough it out, too. And yes, sometimes people are simply derp.

This is the dark side of forced social interaction. It's why some have thrown their hands up and want nothing to do with it if they can help it. Being all, "Oh, just suck it up!" does nothing to solve the problems of why they happen or the general inevitability of content repetition. It's not really a choice at this point, but more a predicament of strong-armed coercion because certain things, usually the best, have no alternative source.

Overall, it's why I pine for multiple paths. Don't like X? Do Y. Don't like Y either? Do Z. Like X and Y? Do them. Like Y and Z? Do those. Like all 3? Have at it. Accessibility should be a thing so someone can at least try each once to see if they like it, but end of the day, if someone only does Z, that should be cool. Right now, MMOs are more about being only X and it seems devs are too timid to branch out.
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#93 Aug 28 2016 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
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To be fair, it seems like Deep Dungeon does have a hardcore path past floor 100, by what they are advertising.

However they're doing with that what they should be doing with raiding: Making the hardcore aspect challenge/bragging rights only. They're so afraid of offending 1% of their base that they're too fearful to do what they did do back when the game was in its neo-honeymoon period.
#94 Aug 28 2016 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
people who DO know what's up not bothering to instruct, people who quit or play half-assedly when the group isn't vets


I've got a bit of a problem with this bit right here. Unless it's right after a patch and no one really knows the mechanics of a new fight, there is no excuse whatsoever for not know a fight before going in. It takes next to no effort to read a wiki or watch a video. Pure laziness is the only reason not to know mechanics ahead of time.
#95 Aug 28 2016 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Turin wrote:
Seriha wrote:
people who DO know what's up not bothering to instruct, people who quit or play half-assedly when the group isn't vets


I've got a bit of a problem with this bit right here. Unless it's right after a patch and no one really knows the mechanics of a new fight, there is no excuse whatsoever for not know a fight before going in. It takes next to no effort to read a wiki or watch a video. Pure laziness is the only reason not to know mechanics ahead of time.


People like going in blind, which I fault no one for as I don't mind if I go in blind but...

yeah...if you're going into 1month - 3 year old content and you keep wiping us, it's honestly not our job to teach you when it takes a few minutes (if that) to get a quick overview so you know what could happen. You learn better as you do, but getting caught off guard by everything including raid wiping mechanics (like running from nidhogg's akh morn even in normal mode will force him to target people at random after you die) is just....

That's exactly why people bail out instantly on certain trials/dungeons because there's mechanics you can't always carry people through.


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#96 Aug 28 2016 at 5:42 PM Rating: Excellent
I agree with Hio.
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#97 Aug 28 2016 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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Turin wrote:
Seriha wrote:
people who DO know what's up not bothering to instruct, people who quit or play half-assedly when the group isn't vets


I've got a bit of a problem with this bit right here. Unless it's right after a patch and no one really knows the mechanics of a new fight, there is no excuse whatsoever for not know a fight before going in. It takes next to no effort to read a wiki or watch a video. Pure laziness is the only reason not to know mechanics ahead of time.


As some noted, there are people who do like to go in blind, not dissimilar to those who hate spoilers, and it's the very nature of forced repetition that introduces the conflict between those who do and those who just want to get it over with because it's no loner new/fun to them. In general, I'm a big proponent of any game not needing outside resources to truly understand what's up, and if you've got some insta-fail mechanics tossed into your combat, then it needs to be obvious without being punishing (let's say less than a 3s reaction time).

Videos or attempts at guides also aren't always going to properly convey what's going on. If you're a healer, something filmed from the perspective of a DPS probably isn't going to be as informative. Just as someone who mains a healer may not understand how to employ a particular job's rotation to maximum effect while trying to react to stuff. "Every little bit helps!" is certainly a comforting sentiment to cling to, but again, just as some don't bother to haunt forums, what makes it obvious they're really going to know a particularly difficult boss is ahead and spend another 10-15m trying to wrap their head around potentially incomplete information?

You can't just segregate newbies into newbie-only parties, if attempting a solution. Eventually you'll run out of newbies and the queues will just get longer. Assert laziness, sure, but I could equally assert a lack of patience for those who just want everything perfectly lined up for them. In the end, it reeks eerily of not really enjoying the so-called challenge as much as the carrot at the end of the stick. And when a game is making one legitimately unhappy when playing it, then something's up. And it's not automatically the fault of one's peers.

Either way, you really can't just assume everyone learns the same way. It's a problem RL teachers face daily. And just as a student sometimes doesn't immediately "get" something, sometimes it's better to hear it from their peers in the moment. If one isn't even willing to get to that point, then yeah, such players are part of the social problem whether they like it or not.
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#98 Aug 28 2016 at 7:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I have all the patience in the world, but I also know with MMOs and RPGs in general, people tend to look up resources because I can assure you Skyrim for example of an offline title doesn't lay out all of the knowledge and what to do/get/where in-game and people usually consult external resources especially if they want to see if a quest is opened up or completed based on certain requirements and what they are. MMOs usually have forum communities with sections dedicated to guides for a reason.

Rotations for example you can't just spout off in the heat of things or before you go into a Level 60 trial or alliance content. By time you hit the level and ilvl, you should know how to play your job. You have access to sooooooo many training dummies from certain camps, to personal houses to a whole content dedicated to it by talking to an NPC outside of the level 60 hub.

I don't mind teaching people, but people have to teach themselves, which is a large reason why there's a "rift" between players to begin with because it becomes very obvious when it's just laziness rather than "avoid spoilers." This isn't FFXI where there's story content tied to the battle so looking up a very small overview of the fight you queued into isn't going to spoil anything.

"Akh Morn? OMG!"
"SUPER JUMP? OMG!"

I like doing things blindly but by time content is so old that you expect people to at least research....do some research. It's new to you but there's a good chance 6/8 people landed there in a roulette and do not want to spend that time wiping endlessly when all they wanted to do was their roulette for the day and go to work/school/sleep lol.
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#99 Aug 28 2016 at 9:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
As some noted, there are people who do like to go in blind, not dissimilar to those who hate spoilers, and it's the very nature of forced repetition that introduces the conflict between those who do and those who just want to get it over with because it's no loner new/fun to them. In general, I'm a big proponent of any game not needing outside resources to truly understand what's up, and if you've got some insta-fail mechanics tossed into your combat, then it needs to be obvious without being punishing (let's say less than a 3s reaction time).


3s reaction time is excessive. My background is mostly fighting games where reactions are measured in 60ths of a second, but even in my old age 3 seconds feels like forever.

For the sake of perspective, the GCD for WoW is 1.5 seconds(prior to reduction from haste). I would hope that if anyone realized that they pressed the wrong button the instant it was pressed, could correct that by the time the GCD was up. If they couldn't then I wouldn't say that I don't want to play with them, but I have no expectations for them ever being able to clear 'difficult' content.

I feel like you undermine yourself in almost encouraging poor play style if you reward players gear that allows access to difficult content simply because they were able to overcome something trivial by most standards. Not a good look for the players, the game or even the genre as a whole in my opinion.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#100 Aug 28 2016 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
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The time window includes what you do after. Since this isn't a fighting game, you can't block/jump/dodge/cancel or whatever. If you've gotta run to a certain spot to avoid the splat, it's probably safe to assume most will need at least a second to acknowledge something is about to happen, and that's not including latency issues. Ranged classes often have it easier in this regard, but melee not so much.

And I'm not really undermining ****. I poke at the hornet's nest of the hardcores because they're a ridiculously sensitive bunch terrified of the casual boogeyman traipsing onto their turf. My argument of self-containment would actually benefit in them in the long run, as well. Training dummies, as Hio brought up, don't teach you how to play well. They just sit there and accept damage. If players are supposed to be learning specific rotations we come to consider standard, then the game needs to be teaching that itself. And if you can't pass a specific task relative to that knowledge, then certain content should remain locked.

On the other hand, we gotta be mindful that enough is enough. 15+ step rotations aren't cool, and I've played too many of these games to see it's more common than it should be. Basically, everyone's going to have different levels of tolerance for high-demand input scenarios. If you're looking at a 10 minute boss fight with a 1.5 GCD and you're riding that hard, that's 400 potential inputs over that span before factoring in movement and oGCDs. I understand frustrations when things go south, truly, but some of these issues could be avoided if fair choice did exist.

Most of us here are probably old enough to recall that little pattern memorization game called Simon, right? I'd like to think I was pretty good at it, myself, and recall taking advantage of that at a semi-local pizza joint that offered rewards for various scores. Sometimes I'd watch my sisters play. Sometimes I'd watch strangers play. Some did well, some not so much. For those where memorization came easily, Simon was a game for them. Those same people that didn't do so well might totally hand me my **** at a game of pool or whatever else. MMOs aren't any different here, but I'm just emphasizing that a decade of playing Simon isn't cutting it for everyone, and getting dismissive because they want their pool-playing fairly recognized is just plain petty.
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#101 Aug 29 2016 at 3:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
The time window includes what you do after. Since this isn't a fighting game, you can't block/jump/dodge/cancel or whatever. If you've gotta run to a certain spot to avoid the splat, it's probably safe to assume most will need at least a second to acknowledge something is about to happen, and that's not including latency issues. Ranged classes often have it easier in this regard, but melee not so much.

Average Joe's brain doesn't need that much time to process information, especially considering that if he's in an organized raid, he already knows what to expect. If you sat 1000 random people down at a keyboard and told them to press the spacebar when a certain letter flashed on their screen, they're all generally going to fall between that quarter to half a second response time.

They've already said that they can't increase frequency of player positional checks by the server due to stress, but we also know these encounters are designed with that consideration. Zero point three seconds. Whether you measure it in milliseconds or frames, the point at which Joe experiences deteriorated gameplay isn't approaching an entire second.

Quote:
And I'm not really undermining ****. I poke at the hornet's nest of the hardcores because they're a ridiculously sensitive bunch terrified of the casual boogeyman traipsing onto their turf.

As for the undermining, I was speaking about the developers. It goes against the idea of progression if devs use trivial content as a springboard to being ready to raid.

There is a reason why players in WoW are asked to prove they've cleared achievement(s) in order to receive an invite to a raid. It could just be me, but I feel it's at least a testament to a players ability to pay attention or at least be able to follow direction well enough that it's not wasting other people's time.

It's not so much that hardcore players want better rewards as much as it is them wanting the reward to be consistent with the challenge. Imagine winning a 10 dollar gift card for scoring 20 on Simon Says at your local pizza joint. Do you fault someone for balling up their face when they get a 15 dollar gift card for scoring 100?


Edited, Aug 29th 2016 5:48am by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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