No one is saying this but you.
to try to justify getting rid of a part of the game and its players
Have I missed something? Has Thayos been beating the drum for expelling raiders from the game? While I don't claim to have read all 5500ish of his posts, I seriously doubt he's advocating for the removal of raiding. He's asking (and several other people) for resources to be focused where the players actually are, which is at the casual-midcore level and not at the high end hardcore level where currently about 1% of the players are and about 50% of the development time seems to go.
That doesn't sound unreasonable to me. He's asking for a progression path aimed at the broader audience.
As said, it was definitely said, there's really no other way to take "kick raiders to the curb if it were up to me", as said english isn't my first language, but I know enough of it to know when you "kick people to the curb" you're not saying "this is how it should be done better." I just really hate how it seems like I simply made that up when you can pretty much read it on any community that has a thing against raiding. Hence why I repeat it a lot, because even on OF people have stated countless times, including some cross posters here, Raiding and Raiders should be gone and "move on" from that concept, but usually only when they reply to certain people.
How is that not saying get rid of it, I don't know. Maybe I don't understand English as well as I thought.
The only thing I'm sure is that I quit a few days ago, and I don't plan on coming back unless a better writer will be hired to actually close the story and not create an entire sidequest expansion(not going to happen) or the ridicolous tomestone cycle will be scrapped (and not for raiding, by the way, just that the repetition is way boring), something that I don't expect to happen either.
Save your money. Yoshida already confirmed twice now they're not diverting from this formula. The better writers did the storyline content people seem to hate (Binding Coil) and have since never touched the game in a large manner aside a quest here or there.
Can SE make moderately challenging progression based events without having it be too easy or too hard? The battle system just feels so limited with the current job setups. It seems to be the biggest problem with twitch mechanics, one shot skills from bosses or you can recover too easily and it takes away any challenge. Most "challenging" fights prior to echo all border on, one dies, the whole party dies. To me, that's just bad design.
By this point, they would of figured it out if there was a way to do it.
Edited, Sep 6th 2016 8:09pm by Montsegurnephcreep
Binding Coil + Ex Primal progression working together. That alone would solve a lot of the problems. Yoshida has went on record to say there's a lot they CAN do but CHOOSE NOT to do, so it's not that they can't figure it out, this "works" so they don't want to divert. The biggest problem is indeed the battle system which is why I always kind of chuckle when I see RDM suggestions and how they say it could "melee and use black/white magic" or "mix magic with melee.." sorry, FFXIV doesn't work that way. You're either/or.
You can't call something progression when raiders have to work for it and for longer, but casual players can make the same progress. No one would raid because the more 'accessible' content would obviously be quicker and easier. All that leads to is a bunch of geared casuals who are bored because they mashed the content so quickly, but still can't raid because gear doesn't grant you experience or execution.
What's the point?
I've heard this argument before, many, many times before, and each time it echoes the same hollow level of BS when compared to the facts. And that's not at you Filty, the argument itself just does not hold weight. The rewards themselves don't have a point as they're being presented.
Providing elitism level incentives don't work. When content is unappealing, it's unappealing. When players want to do something, incentive is often an afterthought. You've got the priorities on your stance backwards
from the realities, both in philosophy and in raw data metrics across the genre.
It's not just FFXIV, it's raiding across the board that has about a 1-2% clear rate
Based on census (you keep quoting low clear % so this applies), the highest clear rate is 15% prior to HW and 12% post HW. Where is this 1-2% clear rate? Most JP servers were sitting well over 6-15%. The NA servers had A LOT of sub 1% clears, that is true, but you have to realize when you add up all of the clear rates of UNOFFICIAL, INACCURATE NUMBERS, it's still more than 1-2%, let alone trying to say they're a "tiny player base"
the argument itself just does not hold weight
It doesn't to you, but it does from a game design perspective.
Progression content includes raiding, especially in XIV's design.
Why do Nidhogg Ex for an ILEVEL 235 WEAPON...when you can do Palace of the Dead for the same ilvl weapon that is actually superior for an obscenely less amount of work? Nevermind the fact you can NOW obtain an ILEVEL 240 weapon for almost no work at all via Weeping City since most people (who cared) has a lore weapon by now even when Midan Gears were once a week. That's 1 run of Midas 4 for 7 weeks since Midas's introduction and 1000 tomes takes almost no time at all.
So the argument is, casual players make the same progress as raiders, which is fine but, what about the raids? Why do that? Palace of the dead introduction absoultely KILLED Nidhogg Ex (even though Nidhogg has 2 better weapons) and that's not even raid content.
Diadem KILLED Gordias Savage because most gear were BiS due to its Aetherial Nature. Whether you like raiding or not, if there's an EASY VENUE to get the best gear, people will take it, because the REWARDS are good and you spend less time and effort getting it. (seriously, people were botting Diadem.)
Putting 'the best' in there isn't cutting it
Because they DIDN'T put the best in there lol. That's why EVEN YOSHIDA said Coil did far better. There is NO REASON to do Midas Savage especially once weeping city came out because 230 baseline weekly drops supplemented with Lore drops = You're ready for 4.0's content due to crafting giving you easy access to the next tier. (Yoshida's own words.)
The ONLY thing Midas Savage offers is a weapon at this point and that alone is definitely not attractive enough. You can do hunts for more Lore upgrade items instead of dealing with the lockout on weeping city. So..again, when one tier of content has obsolete drops..why do it? This is why people bringing up "even with echo no one does A4S" because why would you run something for gear that serves you no purpose? Nothing will make Alexander Savage attractive because they already messed that up with A3S. Coil was very attractive despite what people seriously want to believe. The guy who runs the **** game even said so which is why they wanted to give a "harder" set because they were introducing a story mode people requested.
Endgame itself should be relevant across multiple platforms besides just raiding, with reward structures that is not about hierarchy as it is about contextualization
That's called horizontal progression. This game is ilevel based. Meaning Ilvl250 gear is the same across the board with 1 or 2 stat differences, i.e
300 Det 340 Crit
300 Skill Speed 340 Parry
Until they introduce better itemization, the problem is, no matter how you slice it, it's not "holding onto archaic designs", it's the simple matter of fact that this game has a very specific itemization that offering the same level rewards, especially in easier to obtain methods...WILL negate any harder content.
We already seen it happen a few times, which is why they never did it again. Shiva Ex is still the last primal to drop armor of any kind alongside weapons that were actually upgrades for the time. So the only way to truly change the end-game layout, is by adding special stats and creating a reason to do every content regardless if it's "easy" or "harder" because every segment of content offers something relevant for everyone, you will never see the same ilvl gear varying in stat differences unless they're different tiers ("Grey"/"Green"/"Blue"/"Pink"/"Purple") since for example PoTD is "green" tier which means despite being 235, the stats aren't maxed off, so even though it has a main stat you like, you can still add materia to max out the secondaries, i.e BRD's bow has a ton of crit..and can get even more crit on it due to the tier of gear it is.
But alas, as even Filth said, it is essentially being suggested to replace the raid content. a small % of people do it, cool. Barely half of the players cleared the easy storyline on either parsing and significantly less are were even level 50, let alone 60 and ready to do content so in all actuality, people at max level make up an equally small % of players in the grand scheme of things...but no one is suggesting getting rid of level 50/60 content or only focus on introducing leveling content.
Speaking of numbers: http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/news/pdf/17q1earnings.pdf
I noticed this is one of the first times they've failed to mention FFXIV and DQX (since they seem to usually be so proud of what they bring to the company.) Hm..guess we'll see if they mention it in November or around 3.5, since in one of their last reports, they stated DQX and XIV were their largest revenue stream..actually kind of lines up with some stuff Yoshida said recently whenever someone asked him about incentives for playing the game consistently. Edited, Sep 7th 2016 4:37pm by Theonehio