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#152 Sep 04 2016 at 8:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Hio, continuing to mash up all your same talking points into giant walls of text isn't helping your cause.

Take a deep breath, and stick with the Xs and Os. Stop projecting your displeasure of others not taking the game as seriously as you do.

Edited, Sep 4th 2016 7:56pm by Thayos
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#153 Sep 04 2016 at 9:58 PM Rating: Decent
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No no. Don't discourage it. The more time she invests in long bits of writing, the less time I have to waste reading it for substance. I've literally derived in my time here that the longer Hio posts, the less weight it actually holds. She's got a habit of getting long winded when it boils down to self-justification. Finding that one out has saved me from a lot of reruns.

Oh, and that website linked is getting some pretty hefty feedback in the form of "Dude, your idea of active subscribers is incredibly bias." Would have mentioned it but the bandwagon is pretty much set on that path so no need for me to.

Oh, and small note, OF is not an accurate sample of the player base. Only it's most vocal. That includes both sides of any debate there. There are a staggering amount of players who just don't visit forums due to their toxicity.
#154 Sep 04 2016 at 10:32 PM Rating: Good
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Too much focus on not getting a kill rather than focusing on how much further you're getting this week as opposed to last week.

Which just exacerbates the time issue. You're okay with needing 2+ weeks just to figure out/kill a single mob. Not everyone else is, especially when you consider they may not be running it with the same people each time.

I can't really think of any other game/genre where I've needed weeks to overcome a particular challenge. If it's something I step into and get summarily squashed, I start asking myself, "What caused that?" So in a second attempt, I begin looking for any sort of signs that might've triggered the failure. Since I'm more the RPG fan, that means things like keeping an eye on a mob's HP level, and if battlefield positioning is a factor, things like where someone might've been standing or a possible warning queue. If I find it's something that can't be avoided, I shift more to mitigating around that point, and so on.

Of course, RPGs being what they are, sometimes it's simply a matter of leveling a bit more and perhaps finding some better gear elsewhere. That's not really a luxury in these games, though, since the source of gear tends to be what people struggle on with leveling already long since capped barring merit-like systems. And in the case of the latter, if you hit a point where content is only possible unless you've dumped X amount of time into extraneous leveling, well, we're flirting with the inaccessibility angle again. XI is having this problem with the Job Mastery system, as an example.

Not everyone gets so emotionally invested, either. For troublesome content, you can hit a point where when you finally do beat it, you might think, "Finally, I don't have to touch this **** again..." Yet, that's simply not true for raids. You've gotta fight the same mobs over and over for weeks/months on end while the tokens pile up and RNG drops may/may not cooperate. When confronted by the monotony of those unfun challenges, morale is going to plummet. It truly does start to feel like a grind. Further factor people are often working jobs they don't like just so they can fund the things they do like, and it's not surprising some ultimately swear off the content altogether. To bring up XI again, that's exactly why I came to hate Salvage. Yet you'll find people who think it's the best content SE ever did.

"You can't please everyone..." may be an accurate sentiment, but I don't think it unfair to assert devs aren't working enough to please as many as possible. And part of this is the fault of what money XIV makes, in this case, isn't devoted to it first and foremost. The rest is not falling into the trap of just because a game is online, you have to be playing with someone else 24/7.
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#155 Sep 05 2016 at 2:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Which just exacerbates the time issue. You're okay with needing 2+ weeks just to figure out/kill a single mob. Not everyone else is, especially when you consider they may not be running it with the same people each time.

It's like this by design. Yes, I'm OK with it taking a few weeks to down a boss when the content cycle is 4 months long. I'd rather not blast through a raid in a few weeks, farm it for a few more weeks to get a full set of gear and then sit on my thumb for months waiting for something else to do. At least; I don't expect that to happen until the gap between the last content update and the following expansion.
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#156 Sep 05 2016 at 6:03 AM Rating: Good
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And you've highlighted two issues there:
1) It's by design
2) Lacking alternative content to help keep you busy.

We're technically arguing to do something about point #2. You don't have to like it all, mind you, but the goal should be to give you more to do. On the other hand, if all you want to do is raid and forget everything else, that "choice" is way more your fault than why someone can't/won't raid.
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#157 Sep 05 2016 at 6:30 AM Rating: Decent
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unless you consider storyline content too difficult to complete until it's way outdated


It wasn't though.


Dude, don't try to argue with me about what my own experiences with the game were like. I think I know them better than you.

When it comes to the more difficult content in this game, I tend not to manage to get it done until it's already obsolete, if ever. It's been like that with all of coil, most extreme trials, and now Alex savage.

Quote:
People always wait until content is outdated to go through it,


Did you ever stop to think that maybe this is because people literally can't complete it before it's outdated?
#158 Sep 05 2016 at 9:37 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:

Did you ever stop to think that maybe this is because people literally can't complete it before it's outdated?


And I just said a few posts ago how my content static is now working through coil because several members couldn't clear it back when it was relevant.

That's why this is silly... Hio is freaking out over arguments she has already lost.
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#159 Sep 05 2016 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
That's why this is silly... Hio is freaking out over arguments she has already lost.


So about projecting onto others you accuse people of.


Hyrist wrote:
Oh, and that website linked is getting some pretty hefty feedback in the form of "Dude, your idea of active subscribers is incredibly bias." Would have mentioned it but the bandwagon is pretty much set on that path so no need for me to


Yet it doesn't stop people from using the inaccurate clear numbers that get posted to try to justify getting rid of a part of the game and its players, since they use the SAME exact method. :)

Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
unless you consider storyline content too difficult to complete until it's way outdated


It wasn't though.


Dude, don't try to argue with me about what my own experiences with the game were like. I think I know them better than you.

When it comes to the more difficult content in this game, I tend not to manage to get it done until it's already obsolete, if ever. It's been like that with all of coil, most extreme trials, and now Alex savage.

Quote:
People always wait until content is outdated to go through it,


Did you ever stop to think that maybe this is because people literally can't complete it before it's outdated?


Best part is though, people try to tell me I'm wrong about my experience and playstyle all the time, Kind of proves a point around here who gets disrespected.

I actually talk to people and learn why people don't do content because upon a new patch, Ex Primals and Coil/Alexander is locked off to IN SERVER community, meaning your experiences is heavily skewed towards how your server(s) are - A lot wait to do it till it hits duty finder because they miss the train on learning parties (which people around here have even said as well) because most people get it down within the first few days. People wait till content is outdated because they want it to be easier. No one said that was bad, however absolutely nothing prevents you from completing content before hand.

Do you think people magically just clear content the second they touch it? Later content has been far easier than 2.x era except Savage Alexander, but a lot of people that don't sit around and REFUSE to do content tend to get things done, which is why you'll notice a severe drop in "Learning (insert content)" after the first week, because people are actually working on getting things cleared.

So if every bit of content that actually affects progression is too hard to complete and players "can't" complete it, I wasn't incorrect in stating that anything SE releases other than content that hands you gear for little to no work ala PoTD is too much for this game's community.

Yet I get told I'm wrong and people don't want handouts.

Yet people say even Ex primals are too hard which is barely a step up from the optional dungeons they release. Storyline dungeons tend to be tuned lighter than the 2nd Hard Mode, which was usually the "harder" one. Then comes ex primals, then comes Savage Alexander.

Just saying.

So what type of content tier does that leave? The current raid component is flawed largely because they keep ******** up the rewards and handing out better gear, so there's literally no reason to run Savage Alexander, especially after the first 2 months due to "catch up" patches offering better/equal rewards. The only goal is bragging rights and a high level weapon...there has to be more than that, which is why Coil was far better.

Edited, Sep 5th 2016 3:05pm by Theonehio
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#160 Sep 05 2016 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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to try to justify getting rid of a part of the game and its players


No one is saying this but you.

Have I missed something? Has Thayos been beating the drum for expelling raiders from the game? While I don't claim to have read all 5500ish of his posts, I seriously doubt he's advocating for the removal of raiding. He's asking (and several other people) for resources to be focused where the players actually are, which is at the casual-midcore level and not at the high end hardcore level where currently about 1% of the players are and about 50% of the development time seems to go.

That doesn't sound unreasonable to me. He's asking for a progression path aimed at the broader audience.
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#161 Sep 05 2016 at 5:39 PM Rating: Excellent
Callinon gets it.

Hio, your blustering walls of text are pointless until you stop taking people out of context and putting words in their mouths. You are still arguing from a flawed, fragile and biased perspective.

You are definitely taking our criticism of SE's focus on hardcore raiding too personally.

Edited, Sep 5th 2016 4:42pm by Thayos
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#162 Sep 06 2016 at 11:36 AM Rating: Decent
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The only thing I'm sure is that I quit a few days ago, and I don't plan on coming back unless a better writer will be hired to actually close the story and not create an entire sidequest expansion(not going to happen) or the ridicolous tomestone cycle will be scrapped (and not for raiding, by the way, just that the repetition is way boring), something that I don't expect to happen either.
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#163 Sep 06 2016 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
And you've highlighted two issues there:
1) It's by design
2) Lacking alternative content to help keep you busy.

We're technically arguing to do something about point #2. You don't have to like it all, mind you, but the goal should be to give you more to do. On the other hand, if all you want to do is raid and forget everything else, that "choice" is way more your fault than why someone can't/won't raid.

Since this is a progression-based game, it's expected that you will be participating. Since raiding is somewhat impeded by lockouts it allows the developers time to flesh out partially implemented content. They barely have enough resources to keep up with raiding on it's own so I'm not sure how they would be able to create, implement and maintain any alternatives at the same time. Which sort of leads to the next point...

Callinon wrote:
No one is saying this but you.

Actually, Thayos did say that. He later clarified his post, but the sentiment around these boards is that raiding be replaced with more accessible, casual-friendly content. The problem with making those suggestions is that people making them aren't really giving thought to the consequence or even offering up ideas for what to replace it with.

I feel like if people gave it more consideration with certain things in mind(SE being a business, Yoshi's team being so small, the amount of time it takes to develop any content, ect.) they might start to understand why it's unlikely to happen.
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#164 Sep 06 2016 at 5:18 PM Rating: Excellent
Yeah, I did say that, but I feel like my intent was pretty clear when I said it, given the context of the dialogue. And I have clarified my stance many, many times since then. And several of us have recommended how SE could implement progression content other than raiding. So much so that I'm just not going to rehash everything again... just feel like we're all chasing our tails at this point. Though I do like the tone and substance of the recent posts in here.
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#165 Sep 06 2016 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
Can SE make moderately challenging progression based events without having it be too easy or too hard? The battle system just feels so limited with the current job setups. It seems to be the biggest problem with twitch mechanics, one shot skills from bosses or you can recover too easily and it takes away any challenge. Most "challenging" fights prior to echo all border on, one dies, the whole party dies. To me, that's just bad design.

By this point, they would of figured it out if there was a way to do it.



Edited, Sep 6th 2016 8:09pm by Montsegurnephcreep
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#166 Sep 06 2016 at 6:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think the biggest obstacle to progression is the structure of current fights. There are too few bosses with too many mechanics each. Each boss takes weeks to learn and each fight is 10-15 minutes long spanning multiple phases often each with their own unique set of mechanics to memorize. That's insane.

Make more bosses but with fewer mechanics in each fight. Spread the mechanic ideas out among more fights and the bosses actually become more interesting as a result because each can focus on doing their own thing in an interesting way rather than having to showcase 12 mechanics each over a marathon fight.
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#167 Sep 06 2016 at 7:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Yeah, I did say that, but I feel like my intent was pretty clear when I said it, given the context of the dialogue. And I have clarified my stance many, many times since then. And several of us have recommended how SE could implement progression content other than raiding. So much so that I'm just not going to rehash everything again... just feel like we're all chasing our tails at this point. Though I do like the tone and substance of the recent posts in here.

I did give you credit for clarifying. I understand what you meant, but in the context of the discussion you're still asking for something that's redundant and doesn't line up with the style of the game.

You can't call something progression when raiders have to work for it and for longer, but casual players can make the same progress. No one would raid because the more 'accessible' content would obviously be quicker and easier. All that leads to is a bunch of geared casuals who are bored because they mashed the content so quickly, but still can't raid because gear doesn't grant you experience or execution.

What's the point?
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30 bucks is almost free

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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#168 Sep 06 2016 at 10:54 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

You can't call something progression when raiders have to work for it and for longer, but casual players can make the same progress. No one would raid because the more 'accessible' content would obviously be quicker and easier. All that leads to is a bunch of geared casuals who are bored because they mashed the content so quickly, but still can't raid because gear doesn't grant you experience or execution.

What's the point?


I've heard this argument before, many, many times before, and each time it echoes the same hollow level of BS when compared to the facts. And that's not at you Filty, the argument itself just does not hold weight. The rewards themselves don't have a point as they're being presented.

Providing elitism level incentives don't work. When content is unappealing, it's unappealing. When players want to do something, incentive is often an afterthought. You've got the priorities on your stance backwards from the realities, both in philosophy and in raw data metrics across the genre.

It's not just FFXIV, it's raiding across the board that has about a 1-2% clear rate for their highest raid ranks. Most MMOs have tried to cater this down by creating multiple rankings of gear, but this has proven to show signs of fatigue against raiding participation in general.

So both in terms of raiding as being attractive, in spite of the rewards (even among raiders) and overall raid participation in general are both not doing well. Putting 'the best' in there isn't cutting it. The whole argument behind that is both a red herring, and a strawman - usually without even really understanding that it is both a red herring and a strawman. It. Is. Not. Working. I'm sorry, but what you think brings people in isn't really what brings people in - it's just a dumb justification that looks good in theory.



In truth, to have proper enticement for raids, you don't need to have the 'objectively best' to want to go through the 'objectively hardest' content. Ambuscade currently in FFXI proves that players will select the hardest of difficulties if it expedites them the same reward pool at a higher rate - implying the best reward you can give is more respect for their time. Moreover, so long as the loot is unique enough, and relevant to what they are doing - players will go after it in the manner they like the most not necessarily the manner they think is easiest.

The balance difficulty here for base progression is making sure the fights are tuned against the grind in such that the skilled at raids get their rewards quicker than the diligent at grinding - giving players what they want the most: Playstyle options.

The enticement difficulty is to make sure that the reward structures are not only equal in pursuit ,but unique to context. Raid gear for raiding, PvP gear for PvP, Deep Dungeon Gear for Deep dungeon - giving players what they want the most: Relevancy.

The longevity difficulty, in this case, is to create something that gives them something they're going to cherish beyond the next ilvl raise. Providing an alternative progression (in FFXIV's case, contextual skills I feel would be the most fitting solution) that can be collected and used to some effect across gameplay will give players another thing they've been wanting: A lasting since of accomplishment.

Right now, FFXIV lacks for all three of these major points on all levels - and the Raid Centrist structure is a huge culprit in that - in the end only really appealing to a narrow band of completion that most often tolerate the difficulty, rather than crave it. And the reward system fails to properly reward even those people. But the answer lies not in amount of value, but in the method of reward.



TLDR;
IMO, time gating should not be an issue for raiders, it should be not AS MUCH of an issue for grinders as it is now, but I still think it should be a factor. Endgame itself should be relevant across multiple platforms besides just raiding, with reward structures that is not about hierarchy as it is about contextualization. In addition, each of these accomplishments should provide rewards with a sense of tactile permanence beyond glamour. Failure to meet these markers will simply continue to show the same signs of fatigue relevant across the genre.

Right now, there is no point no matter how you spin it. The enticement isn't relevant enough - it's not a matter of power or level of reward above others.
#169 Sep 07 2016 at 4:04 AM Rating: Good
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Part of why we presumably pay the devs is for them to also solve the problem(s) we present. No matter how elegant and intricate the concept a player may propose, we simply do not have the final say in whether or not it gets the green light. And while someone might say we vote with our wallets if we unsub, I can't say I've played an MMO yet that really asks why someone might stop playing. Further, we have to understand that not everyone WILL have a solution to their perceived problems, just that they know something doesn't quite feel right.

Personally, I've laid some rough outlines on "what to do" here. And while some ideas may work fine independently, I'd much rather a strong synergy be developed between the players and the world. Raids, much like instanced dungeons, simply feel too disconnected from the world they're supposed to be linked to. These super bad baddies are just waiting politely in some pocket space for us to come kill them? That doesn't much make sense to me. It's why stuff like more properly scaling FATEs should be encouraged because it lets villains play in the world, with potential consequence, while giving players a greater freedom to tackle the problem(s) how they see fit. And coincidentally, greater cooperation can lead to greater reward, which seems to the impetus of those who assert that these are supposed to be multiplayer games. Friendships can also be built in this manner, where you eventually start seeing regular participants and conversation between activity lulls. Essentially, it's a more reactive style than being meticulously pre-planned.
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#170 Sep 07 2016 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
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to try to justify getting rid of a part of the game and its players


No one is saying this but you.

Have I missed something? Has Thayos been beating the drum for expelling raiders from the game? While I don't claim to have read all 5500ish of his posts, I seriously doubt he's advocating for the removal of raiding. He's asking (and several other people) for resources to be focused where the players actually are, which is at the casual-midcore level and not at the high end hardcore level where currently about 1% of the players are and about 50% of the development time seems to go.

That doesn't sound unreasonable to me. He's asking for a progression path aimed at the broader audience.


As said, it was definitely said, there's really no other way to take "kick raiders to the curb if it were up to me", as said english isn't my first language, but I know enough of it to know when you "kick people to the curb" you're not saying "this is how it should be done better." I just really hate how it seems like I simply made that up when you can pretty much read it on any community that has a thing against raiding. Hence why I repeat it a lot, because even on OF people have stated countless times, including some cross posters here, Raiding and Raiders should be gone and "move on" from that concept, but usually only when they reply to certain people.

How is that not saying get rid of it, I don't know. Maybe I don't understand English as well as I thought.


xizro wrote:
The only thing I'm sure is that I quit a few days ago, and I don't plan on coming back unless a better writer will be hired to actually close the story and not create an entire sidequest expansion(not going to happen) or the ridicolous tomestone cycle will be scrapped (and not for raiding, by the way, just that the repetition is way boring), something that I don't expect to happen either.


Save your money. Yoshida already confirmed twice now they're not diverting from this formula. The better writers did the storyline content people seem to hate (Binding Coil) and have since never touched the game in a large manner aside a quest here or there.

Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
Can SE make moderately challenging progression based events without having it be too easy or too hard? The battle system just feels so limited with the current job setups. It seems to be the biggest problem with twitch mechanics, one shot skills from bosses or you can recover too easily and it takes away any challenge. Most "challenging" fights prior to echo all border on, one dies, the whole party dies. To me, that's just bad design.

By this point, they would of figured it out if there was a way to do it.

Edited, Sep 6th 2016 8:09pm by Montsegurnephcreep


Binding Coil + Ex Primal progression working together. That alone would solve a lot of the problems. Yoshida has went on record to say there's a lot they CAN do but CHOOSE NOT to do, so it's not that they can't figure it out, this "works" so they don't want to divert. The biggest problem is indeed the battle system which is why I always kind of chuckle when I see RDM suggestions and how they say it could "melee and use black/white magic" or "mix magic with melee.." sorry, FFXIV doesn't work that way. You're either/or.

Hyrist wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:

You can't call something progression when raiders have to work for it and for longer, but casual players can make the same progress. No one would raid because the more 'accessible' content would obviously be quicker and easier. All that leads to is a bunch of geared casuals who are bored because they mashed the content so quickly, but still can't raid because gear doesn't grant you experience or execution.

What's the point?


I've heard this argument before, many, many times before, and each time it echoes the same hollow level of BS when compared to the facts. And that's not at you Filty, the argument itself just does not hold weight. The rewards themselves don't have a point as they're being presented.

Providing elitism level incentives don't work. When content is unappealing, it's unappealing. When players want to do something, incentive is often an afterthought. You've got the priorities on your stance backwards from the realities, both in philosophy and in raw data metrics across the genre.

It's not just FFXIV, it's raiding across the board that has about a 1-2% clear rate


Based on census (you keep quoting low clear % so this applies), the highest clear rate is 15% prior to HW and 12% post HW. Where is this 1-2% clear rate? Most JP servers were sitting well over 6-15%. The NA servers had A LOT of sub 1% clears, that is true, but you have to realize when you add up all of the clear rates of UNOFFICIAL, INACCURATE NUMBERS, it's still more than 1-2%, let alone trying to say they're a "tiny player base"

Quote:
the argument itself just does not hold weight


It doesn't to you, but it does from a game design perspective.

Progression content includes raiding, especially in XIV's design.

Why do Nidhogg Ex for an ILEVEL 235 WEAPON...when you can do Palace of the Dead for the same ilvl weapon that is actually superior for an obscenely less amount of work? Nevermind the fact you can NOW obtain an ILEVEL 240 weapon for almost no work at all via Weeping City since most people (who cared) has a lore weapon by now even when Midan Gears were once a week. That's 1 run of Midas 4 for 7 weeks since Midas's introduction and 1000 tomes takes almost no time at all.

So the argument is, casual players make the same progress as raiders, which is fine but, what about the raids? Why do that? Palace of the dead introduction absoultely KILLED Nidhogg Ex (even though Nidhogg has 2 better weapons) and that's not even raid content.

Diadem KILLED Gordias Savage because most gear were BiS due to its Aetherial Nature. Whether you like raiding or not, if there's an EASY VENUE to get the best gear, people will take it, because the REWARDS are good and you spend less time and effort getting it. (seriously, people were botting Diadem.)

Quote:
Putting 'the best' in there isn't cutting it


Because they DIDN'T put the best in there lol. That's why EVEN YOSHIDA said Coil did far better. There is NO REASON to do Midas Savage especially once weeping city came out because 230 baseline weekly drops supplemented with Lore drops = You're ready for 4.0's content due to crafting giving you easy access to the next tier. (Yoshida's own words.)

The ONLY thing Midas Savage offers is a weapon at this point and that alone is definitely not attractive enough. You can do hunts for more Lore upgrade items instead of dealing with the lockout on weeping city. So..again, when one tier of content has obsolete drops..why do it? This is why people bringing up "even with echo no one does A4S" because why would you run something for gear that serves you no purpose? Nothing will make Alexander Savage attractive because they already messed that up with A3S. Coil was very attractive despite what people seriously want to believe. The guy who runs the **** game even said so which is why they wanted to give a "harder" set because they were introducing a story mode people requested.

Quote:
Endgame itself should be relevant across multiple platforms besides just raiding, with reward structures that is not about hierarchy as it is about contextualization


That's called horizontal progression. This game is ilevel based. Meaning Ilvl250 gear is the same across the board with 1 or 2 stat differences, i.e

300 Det 340 Crit
vs
300 Skill Speed 340 Parry

Until they introduce better itemization, the problem is, no matter how you slice it, it's not "holding onto archaic designs", it's the simple matter of fact that this game has a very specific itemization that offering the same level rewards, especially in easier to obtain methods...WILL negate any harder content.

We already seen it happen a few times, which is why they never did it again. Shiva Ex is still the last primal to drop armor of any kind alongside weapons that were actually upgrades for the time. So the only way to truly change the end-game layout, is by adding special stats and creating a reason to do every content regardless if it's "easy" or "harder" because every segment of content offers something relevant for everyone, you will never see the same ilvl gear varying in stat differences unless they're different tiers ("Grey"/"Green"/"Blue"/"Pink"/"Purple") since for example PoTD is "green" tier which means despite being 235, the stats aren't maxed off, so even though it has a main stat you like, you can still add materia to max out the secondaries, i.e BRD's bow has a ton of crit..and can get even more crit on it due to the tier of gear it is.

But alas, as even Filth said, it is essentially being suggested to replace the raid content. a small % of people do it, cool. Barely half of the players cleared the easy storyline on either parsing and significantly less are were even level 50, let alone 60 and ready to do content so in all actuality, people at max level make up an equally small % of players in the grand scheme of things...but no one is suggesting getting rid of level 50/60 content or only focus on introducing leveling content. Smiley: dubious

Speaking of numbers: http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/news/pdf/17q1earnings.pdf I noticed this is one of the first times they've failed to mention FFXIV and DQX (since they seem to usually be so proud of what they bring to the company.) Hm..guess we'll see if they mention it in November or around 3.5, since in one of their last reports, they stated DQX and XIV were their largest revenue stream..actually kind of lines up with some stuff Yoshida said recently whenever someone asked him about incentives for playing the game consistently.

Edited, Sep 7th 2016 4:37pm by Theonehio
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#171 Sep 07 2016 at 6:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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As said, it was definitely said, there's really no other way to take "kick raiders to the curb if it were up to me", as said english isn't my first language, but I know enough of it to know when you "kick people to the curb" you're not saying "this is how it should be done better."


English isn't your first language, so I'll offer you some benefit of the doubt for not fully understanding how that comment fit in with the context of our ongoing dialogue.

That said, you've been told many times now by pretty much everyone here that you're wrong on the context.

Accept it, and stop beating that dead horse. You're undermining your own credibility each time you do.

Note... even in your quote up above, you're still putting words in my mouth. I wasn't attempting to say how raiding could be handled better.

Edited, Sep 7th 2016 5:07pm by Thayos
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#172Hyrist, Posted: Sep 07 2016 at 8:54 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Again with the thinking I read huge posts from Hio. Please. Save yourself the effort.
#173 Sep 07 2016 at 10:20 PM Rating: Excellent
Hyrist wrote:
Only a few indie darlings really get off the ground due taking dramatic risks these days, and the record shows that larger game companies that take dramatic changes for the sake of dramatic changes tend to overdo it and flop.


No Man's Sky.
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#174 Sep 08 2016 at 4:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Technically No Man's Sky still counts as independent, but yes, trying too much to be edgy and create something unique - only to pretty much in that case create an overblown tech demo.
#175 Sep 08 2016 at 6:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, in watching debates elsewhere about why Diablo 3 "sucked" or whatever, something you see people bring up is that it wasn't dark and gritty enough, immediately veering then to typical Blizzard humor angles as their evidence. Meanwhile, I sit there pondering the mechanical aspects of their complaint (In that they want it harder for the player to see things) and the aesthetic (more blood, gore, etc.) and come to the eventual realization that what they're seeking is effectively a parody of the game/genre.

It's like, yeah, the game has problems, but light radius and being so emo even a goth would blush aren't one of 'em.
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#176 Sep 08 2016 at 10:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Technically No Man's Sky still counts as independent, but yes, trying too much to be edgy and create something unique - only to pretty much in that case create an overblown tech demo.


For sure, it's an indie game, but I'd put it more on par with a large studio launch simply because of the magnitude of the launch and the hype received from Sony.

I don't blame game developers for being afraid to take risks. Like you said, the risk takers are usually the ones who pay the price. I mean, look at Wildstar. An MMO developer finally listened to the hardcore playerbase that pines for "old school" gaming experiences, and then -- big surprise -- the game totally flopped because so few people found it to be fun.

FFXIV is on the other end of the spectrum. The devs have played it a little too safe, and the consequences are predictable updates and an endgame scene that's only really good for "traditional" endgame raiders -- who are in dwindling supply. Overall, the formula for XIV is fine, but the game would definitely be better off if SE mixed things up a bit, especially at endgame.
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#177 Sep 10 2016 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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The reason Wildstar flopped was because it went into a direction no one actually asked for. People like harder games, but literally no one asked for the kinds of grinds they added that pretty much had you do what XIV does for relics now, only on a far more extreme level. It's the same reason TERA flopped initially - The combat was unique for the time, it was different and the storyline was more coherently told by having actual cutscenes. But once you take that away, it's yet another generic MMORPG, not worth the hype.

GW2 is the same way. It wasn't a bad game, but aside the unique mechanics..there's really nothing there. The same with FFXIV ARR+, it's not really doing anything new and what it "borrowed" from other developers it did terribly. So not taking risks is going to be the biggest downfall for XIV if they think "sticking to the formula" will work for 4.0 like it did with 3.0, and it realistically only worked with 3.0 because people bought into the hype and again, with the 3.0 > 3.1 lull made a lot more people aware to how the game is actually going.

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an endgame scene that's only really good for "traditional" endgame raiders -- who are in dwindling supply


Because the end-game ISN'T good for "traditional endgame raiders", because it's terribly designed which Yoshida has admitted countless times. Once they go back to a Coil format, however.
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#178 Sep 10 2016 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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The reason Wildstar flopped was because it went into a direction no one actually asked for. People like harder games, but literally no one asked for the kinds of grinds they added that pretty much had you do what XIV does for relics now, only on a far more extreme level.


Actually lots of people kept banging on the walls for huge raids and attunements and grinds and things like that. But it turns out that a hundred or so people on a forum are not enough to sustain an MMO.
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#179 Sep 10 2016 at 12:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Yeah, in watching debates elsewhere about why Diablo 3 "sucked" or whatever, something you see people bring up is that it wasn't dark and gritty enough, immediately veering then to typical Blizzard humor angles as their evidence. Meanwhile, I sit there pondering the mechanical aspects of their complaint (In that they want it harder for the player to see things) and the aesthetic (more blood, gore, etc.) and come to the eventual realization that what they're seeking is effectively a parody of the game/genre.

It's like, yeah, the game has problems, but light radius and being so emo even a goth would blush aren't one of 'em.


The first wave of Diablo 3 was great (minus the auction house), then they nerfed it into the ground.. and nerfed it and nerfed it and nerfed it. At this point it's just a big Legendary pinata.

The WoWified art style I could live with. Tearing the core game to shreds is what killed it for me.
#180 Sep 10 2016 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
But it turns out that a hundred or so people on a forum are not enough to sustain an MMO.


Largely why I dislike when it comes to this game that they seem to have listened to a small portion of people on the OF that ended up really throwing this game's content systems out of whack.

As for this:

Quote:
Actually lots of people kept banging on the walls for huge raids and attunements and grinds and things like that.


Yep, but not for that style of MMO in general, people largely (in general communities) were wanting MMOs to stop basically being something you join, get through within a week or two and quit because back then MMOs really did nosedive in design lol. Whether people find it good or not is subjective, but that's why people were hyped for TERA because it wasn't being marketed as the typical (for the time) one and done MMO, it had SO much potential.

It still does, which is why it's one of the most popular (and profitable) MMOs out now, especially under F2P.
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#181 Sep 15 2016 at 4:33 AM Rating: Good
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The absurdity of the conversation this thread has been so badly derailed into makes me smile.

FFXI was a horrible game. A wonderfully, addictingly horrible game. We played it it. We got hooked. We realized how horrible it was. But we were hooked and couldn't stop. It was that sort of game that you just love to hate. And so a community came together, born from our mutual hatred for and addiction to the game. And that community was ******* amazing. That community is what made the game so strong, both in game and out. People's passions became ignited by the memories forged playing FFXI. That's why this silliness is here. The FFXI we all know and loved died years ago. The game's still going, but the community it once had died. And yet even years later, folks still get so fiercely passionate about **** that doesn't even matter.

I honestly doubt another game will come along that manages to impact people the way FFXI did. The market has changed too much. The demographic has shifted. The perfect storm like we had won't likely come in any form we recognize it as. And honestly, that's not necessarily a bad thing. FFXI was one of those things you really had to experience and stick with to understand. Think of it like the Fafhogg of MMOs. It required a lot more out of its players than (most) other MMOs of its time (you could consider the others that were on par or even more demanding as other analogous HNMs, though), and then something new came along and changed the field of play for good (Force Spawns/WoW), and most of what followed took more after the more successful model. But those who kept dedicating themselves to the older form continued, stubbornly, right up until they were finally forced to admit that things had changed beyond recognition, and the game they grew to hate so passionately together had stopped being that game.

And thus came Abyssea, the death knell of the core of FFXI's already declining community. The demographic of the game changed beyond recognition, bowing its knees to the passage of time, just as the HNMs eventually became force pops themselves. The game Post Abyssea became something else entirely. Not something bad, necessarily, but something different. It wasn't the FFXI it used to be. And it never would be again. They tried to do a modern take on FFXI with XIV1.0. we all know how well that worked out.

The XI we knew and loved to hate is a thing of the past. It's dead. It's been dead. And the vast majority of the things that drew us in and got us hooked are either things inherent to the time, or inherent to aspects of the game that just won't work in the modern market. It's sad, but it's true. Personally, I think it's a waste of time to needlessly bicker and compare the two games, even knowing how hard it is not to, and how often I'm prone to doing it. I think we're better off remembering the things we loved about the past, and focusing on ways to enjoy ourselves going forward. Needless bickering over semantics and mechanics and whatever else doesn't do anything but annoy each other. Why not direct that passion towards something more constructive?

/5amJinteRamblings

Edited, Sep 15th 2016 5:37am by Jinte
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#182 Sep 16 2016 at 12:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd say the darkest point of XI for me was shortly into the ToAU era. You still had the nuisances of timed spawns, CoP was still capped (I was done, just before someone thinks to pounce...), there honestly wasn't much to do in the ToAU areas other than kill birds, and the accessibility of more casual things like assaults were hamstrung by the tag system. It was basically enough to tempt me into WoW for a short while at the behest of a friend, but enough happened there to convince me it wasn't worth sticking around for.

Meanwhile, I'm one of those people who don't feel Abyssea killed the game, but actually helped give it some very much needed life. It wasn't perfect, of course, but since it was evident XIV was to be their next golden child, we pretty much had to take the bad with the good. Prior to that, Campaign did a good job of keeping me interested between the ability to gain EXP at my own pace, learning to understand the reward system it carried, and the ability to play jobs outside the XI meta. Yeah, the stupid OP NMs sucked, but that's where the friendly NPCs, including pixies, most came in handy. Basically, there was more of a game to be played than just standing in one spot waiting for NM or chaining the weakest possible mobs for hours. If SE had built on the equipment reward system, like a means to learn the various new WS, 75-cap gear that rivaled Homam and other combos, and slip things like Dynamis currency into the AN exchange, you would've had something a lot more people would've thrown themselves at. Heck, the fact people took advantage of the song buff exploit early on speaks volumes of just how poorly the leveling game was faring at the time, only to have people try and be all vigilante because those that did weren't "playing properly" as some would say. And that's really just one of the hallmark issues of internet gaming in general: Entirely too much worry about how others might be enjoying themselves with little reservation to try and **** that up because it's not their way. The whole Casual vs. Hardcore debate wouldn't even be a thing if things were truly fair.
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#183 Sep 16 2016 at 4:36 AM Rating: Decent
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there honestly wasn't much to do in the ToAU areas other than kill birds,


Wow, really? I felt ToAU gave me loads to do, more than what any other expansion in the 75-era gave me, really.

I spent a great deal of time on the Assault, Salvage, and ZNM systems.
#184 Sep 16 2016 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
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there honestly wasn't much to do in the ToAU areas other than kill birds,

Wow, really? I felt ToAU gave me loads to do, more than what any other expansion in the 75-era gave me, really.

I spent a great deal of time on the Assault, Salvage, and ZNM systems.

You have to remember that not all of that was available at launch. When ToAU first released there was no Salvage, ZMN, Nyzul Isle, etc. Even assault only went to rank 3(4?) at the time. Once you did the handful of one time quests and missions, and used up your limited assault tags, what was left besides exping and the occasional besieged?
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#185 Sep 16 2016 at 10:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Once you did the handful of one time quests and missions, and used up your limited assault tags, what was left besides exping and the occasional besieged?


Dynamis... over and over and over and over and over again.
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#186 Sep 17 2016 at 12:29 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
there honestly wasn't much to do in the ToAU areas other than kill birds,


Wow, really? I felt ToAU gave me loads to do, more than what any other expansion in the 75-era gave me, really.

I spent a great deal of time on the Assault, Salvage, and ZNM systems.


Karlina covered part of it, but even when stuff like Salvage or ZNMs rolled around, I didn't take to them, either.

To me, Salvage failed because the premise of stripping of us our hard-earned gear as a gimmick seemed dumb, to the point the event even had to add a chest at the beginning to try and make it more palatable to players. Then there's just the stupid RNG on some of the NMs or totally un-intuitive pop conditions like clearing a whole floor with no gear unlocks (that people cheesed with logouts) and so on. On top of that, the gear you did get from within the event wasn't even immediately usable, instead requiring partner pieces then, at the time, generally rare materials.

ZNMs were just a system of way, way, way too many NMs with useless gear and the possibility you might not be able to advance to the next tier if the trophy item didn't drop. Further this with the craptastic "picture taking" system and yeah...

My memories of Beseiged pretty much involved dying to AoEs I couldn't see or getting charmed, then occasionally PKed. The concept was sound, but the implementation just wasn't great. Losing key NPCs that only a THF could maybe solo free was probably one of the worst consequences of this system. And if we're being realistic, the EXP payout at the end (if you were alive) was pretty feeble for the time it all took, hearkening back a bit to why people even did the song thing.

But being brutally honest, I've never been happy with how SE handled expansion releases for XI. It was like on top of the monthly fee, we were basically paying for something that was 20-30% done and fleshed out over the next year+. CoP bringing with it no jobs is also likely to be one of the common strikes you'll see people level against it in retrospect. Not that new jobs didn't have that same incomplete issue of other content. :/
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#187 Sep 17 2016 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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FFXI did not have a good reward system, it was reliant on the tolerance of players because honestly, that's all we expected in those days. The bar's been raised since then, and MMO developers are struggeling between the conflicting aims of having a realistic reward structure for time invested, and keeping players in the game for long periods of time. Sadly, the vocal minority that rings their ears still hungers for the so called prestige of the older days and the reactionary new players so used to the instant gratification is over-compensating in the argument. The sweet spot is between but SE seems to lash back and forth to each extreme without ever finding a good center.

Awell. I had given up on 'progression' this last cycle, and I actually am glad I did. Something intensely fun with a 860-900 Skillspeed Dragoon >.>
#188 Sep 18 2016 at 7:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
FFXI did not have a good reward system


It did actually, because it was horizontal, which kept content relevant due to the fact the gear was and always will be (at the time) useful for various reasons, especially the currency based content systems, which XI has numerous of them when you consider modern XI as well (since people on this board tend to say "you can't look back etc etc.") Maybe it didn't benefit your playstyle personaly, but in terms of itemization? it's still one of the best simply because of the style of gameplay it is.

Quote:
The bar's been raised since then, and MMO developers are struggeling between the conflicting aims of having a realistic reward structure for time invested, and keeping players in the game for long periods of time.


When you look at games like FFXIV and some recent MMOs, what bar was raised? Gear is virtually boring and virtually useless when you really think about it. (The whole "Glamour is the real end-game seems like a joke but it's more true than people want to admit.) Even blade & waifu has better itemization than this game, so I don't think any bar was risen, it was lowered if anything because a realistic reward structure wouldn't continually force you into obsolete content, like some 3.4 content is slated to do. it may offer "new rewards" but it doesn't change the fact you're going to be running outdated content as per vertical progression. (Not joking, a task asks you to do binding coil.)

Quote:
keeping players in the game for long periods of time


Funnily enough, Yoshida said himself at gamescom that players shouldn't solely play FFXIV at risk of "burning out" and play multiple MMOs as a response to a player asking SPECIFICALLY about incentives on playing this game continually, so I don't think so much a bar was risen as much as it was lowered in many aspects, since normally keeping players in the game for a long period of time was due to content actually lasting longer than a week or two because it was designed with tiers, you used one set of content to fully gear before tackling the next or so on.

Quote:
The sweet spot is between but SE seems to lash back and forth to each extreme without ever finding a good center.


The sweet spot is indeed, in between, but the content design kind of makes it hard because this game either hands everything out or makes you work for it, PoTD proven if you hand things out with relevance you're going to obsolete content that actually takes time and effort to do. PoTD in 3.4, if the same as the previous one, will obsolete Sophia day one.which is not good content design. There's no "choosing" either, people will go for the handouts 100% of the time unless, with the limited pool of stats they give us, Sophia's weapons (or armor) is better than PoTD 51-100, much like Diadem is dead on arrival unless there's more to it we don't know yet.

Unless of course, Sophia's Gun for example is Dex/Crit and PoTD gun is Skillspeed and Det, then well, that choice is obvious, but for the majority of the community that have issues doing simple mechanics (watch how many get hit with gaze attacks)..the choice will definitely not be sophia.
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#189 Sep 18 2016 at 12:24 PM Rating: Default
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As per usual, I take the first couple words I glance at and just stop reading Hio's post.

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It did actually, because it was horizontal,


Not a full sentence in and I see a red herring straw man.

Having it be horizontal does not mean it was a good reward system. At all. There are good Vertical rewards systems in FFXIV, there are bad Horizontal reward systems in FFXI, and it usually encompass the majority of its systems for the majority of its tenure. You need look no father than the Salvage Duping fiasco as the absolute on how the reward system in FFXI was far too stringent for the effort placed in. It was objectively bad.

That's not to say Horizontal itself is bad, but you can't rate reward systems good or bad.

As usual, I keep myself to one Hio talking point per post.
#190 Sep 19 2016 at 12:51 PM Rating: Default
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Guess I should start using some Hyrist logic of my own.

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You need look no father than the Salvage Duping fiasco


This just in, people cheat in MMORPGs.
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#191 Sep 19 2016 at 3:00 PM Rating: Excellent
Hyrist, I totally thought of you while playing XI yesterday.

I need to get an i119 weapon, and found a guide that said you can get them from a type of Skirmish battle. So I go in there at i118 (all i119 main pieces, but an i117 weapon still) and proceed to get my *** absolutely handed to me by this notorious monster I had to kill.

Ugh... so.... an i118 player apparently can't get the baseline i119 weapon without being in a party full of i119 players (guessing, based on how hard I got beat).

And I'm going this route because after buying an i119 weapon on the AH, I realized I couldn't equip it without a trait that requires 50 CAPACITY POINTS to unlock... and you get like one capacity point per 30 merit points or something crazy like that, lol.

WHY???????

Seriously, WTF!

Last night was my second consecutive FFXI play session that ended with me logging out in frustration. Some folks may criticize XIV for not being enough like XI -- and sometimes I wish it were more XI-ish -- but ****. I logged straight into XIV afterward and relaxed for an hour by chatting with FC mates and enjoying a few quests I hadn't done. Going back to XI makes me much more thankful for XIV as it is.

In the meantime, I'm eager to get through the Adoulin and RoV stories so I can walk away from XI and never look back. Yeah, it's a special game, but ****. There's absolutely no way I'd play that game now if I just picked it up today.

Edited, Sep 19th 2016 2:02pm by Thayos
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#192 Sep 19 2016 at 4:23 PM Rating: Default
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When did it become unreasonable that a player might require the help of other players... in a multiplayer game? Is it also unreasonable to expect that one might actually have to play the game to get the most out of it?

I don't even.
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#193 Sep 19 2016 at 4:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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When did it become unreasonable that a player might require the help of other players... in a multiplayer game?


Oh, that isn't unreasonable at all. But isn't this content kind of old by now? And wasn't the trust system introduced so players in this dead/dying game can still get stuff done?

Also, aren't these i119 weapons essentially basic weapons that need to be upgraded? I'm not expecting a fully upgraded relic to fall into my lap... I just want to be able to reach i119. What I'm asking for isn't unreasonable at all.

Really, though, I'm just saying that I'm thankful FFXIV isn't like FFXI. Seriously, no thanks! FFXIV lets you work with others without stonewalling your most basic progression, even if that progression is more limited. After playing both, I'll take XIV.

Thankfully, XI is still there for folks who prefer that kind of reward system. I just can't wait to be done with it. Love the game, love its storyline, but ****. ****. The game is still such a freaking grind even after being watered down by NPC parties and stat bloat.

Edited, Sep 19th 2016 3:42pm by Thayos
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#194 Sep 19 2016 at 8:06 PM Rating: Default
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Yeah some of the dumbass talking points really do just wear thin.

"Oh we need you to be required to get a group to have even the slightest hope of completing the most basic story content even though it's not even close to endgame." *eyeroll* It's 2016. Stop acting like the old people waving the cane at the whipper snappers. You're this generations old fogies that can't get with the times.

No, Thayos, cheese the system, do Alluvion Skirmish Yorcia Weld floor 1s with Sashes and spend your copper vouchers into obsidian fragments. Hope for 3 butterfly wings to trade to the invisible NPC near the entrance. The name of all of which elude me, currently being sleep deprived.

Skirmish weapons are serviceable for entry level on all ilvl content. And you can gamble with the stones for decent stat upgrades. From there you may have a decent chance of actually getting into minor endgame stuffs, if you're interested.

But yeah, case in point - not even being able to get entry level stuff on your own power without obscene amounts of grinding isn't an intelligent reward system, not for an aged game or a current game. In today's day of drop-in-and-play multiplayer on so many RPGs these days, MMO's are no longer competing just in their own niche market where they can make contrite rules as to what is 'supposed to be'.
#195 Sep 19 2016 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, it's ultimately why I feel the line between MMO and ARPG is likely to start blurring more soon. Devilian was sort of a lite mix in that regard, but it's still arguably more MMO than ARPG with perhaps too much emphasis on PvP and some irksome cash grab tactics of F2P (lookin' at you, inventory space~).

Anyway, for Thayo's XI experience, there are a chain of RoE objectives you can work through that'd also hook you up with an i119 weapon eventually. They were all soloable for me when I did them a few months back, but that might not account for me being potentially better geared than you are at the moment. Nonetheless, you are spot on about their current endgame entry level being more a wall than a door. i119 content is also deceptive, as even without actual difficulty tiers like denoted in Ambuscade, there are obvious gaps in gear quality despite the same flag.

Multiplayer's all well and good when it plays out in synergy, but when you introduce the reality of everyone's wants and needs being all over the place even shortly after a fresh game/patch goes live, it's not at all surprising to find someone might get stuck and subsequently unhappy with the rate they can get aid. And again, it's not about being lazy or impatient. People want to do things, not hope they might able to possibly someday.
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#196 Sep 19 2016 at 10:33 PM Rating: Default
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I understand your position Thayos, but FFXI isn't catered to players that are there to obtain some arbitrary gear score, complete story content and then quit. From that perspective, no what you're asking for isn't unreasonable. From the perspective of a player who is actively seeking capacity points for what their intended use is... you're whining.

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#197 Sep 19 2016 at 10:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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I understand your position Thayos, but FFXI isn't catered to players that are there to obtain some arbitrary gear score, complete story content and then quit. From that perspective, no what you're asking for isn't unreasonable. From the perspective of a player who is actively seeking capacity points for what their intended use is... you're whining.


No, Filth.

"Whining" would be me going onto dedicated FFXI forums and making a big stink about a game that's clearly designed to be exactly what it is. But that's stupid. Why would I want to **** in other people's Cheerios? That would be just as dumb as me going over to ArenaNet's forums and trashing Guild Wars 2. I don't even play that game anymore, nor do I want to.

This is a FFXIV forum intended for FFXIV players. This is an appropriate place to point out and discuss the flaws of other games and relate them with our experiences in FFXIV -- and that means sometimes criticizing our beloved FFXI.

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No, Thayos, cheese the system, do Alluvion Skirmish Yorcia Weld floor 1s with Sashes and spend your copper vouchers into obsidian fragments. Hope for 3 butterfly wings to trade to the invisible NPC near the entrance. The name of all of which elude me, currently being sleep deprived.


I'll have to look into this. Is this a glitch? Why is there an invisible NPC?

That's something else about XI that has been frustrating to deal with. I'd forgotten how completely not intuitive the game can be. Like the first skirmish I did... I completed the first objective and got that key, but didn't know I had to use that key in order to get my coffer to spawn. I also didn't know what the second objective was... either I missed it in the small amount of chat window text or it wasn't there. After running around looking for monsters to kill, the clock expired and I got kicked out. I had to go online and do some research in order to find that I needed to use my key inside. So I basically wasted an entire pop set... but it wouldn't have mattered anyway, because that wasn't even the Skirmish I needed to do... and I didn't even know that either until I did MORE online research. And turns out the Skirmish I needed was so much harder that I couldn't have done it regardless.

Seriously, just terrible.

FFXIV is the complete opposite. And sometimes, it feels like too much hand-holding. But I've got to say... not once playing FFXIV have I ever been frustrated by simple things such as accessing the right content, walking across a zone or receiving my rewards from a battle. That kind of stuff shouldn't be a headache.


Edited, Sep 19th 2016 10:11pm by Thayos
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#198 Sep 19 2016 at 11:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd say his position is being made from someone who realizes SE has put XI out to pasture. Not a whole lot different than just binging some show that recently ended as you lost track of it after season whatever. He wants to finish the proverbial book, close it, and put it back on the shelf.

Things like JP/CP are time sink implicitly for the sake of it. I can hop over to BG and find people grumbling each month increased CP campaigns aren't announced. And knowing how MMO communities tend to be about optimization/efficiency, being on the low end of the JP spectrum isn't going to be doing you any favors. And for someone fresh into 99/ilvl, I'd be surprised if they regularly break 5 JP and hour solo. So, that crap weapon he can't even equip would take 10 hours of play alone. XI being what it is, gaining JP doesn't really interact too well with making money or getting other gear, either.

Sparks gear isn't even really entry level anymore, especially since Ambuscade is now the endgame they want to push there. Have fun (never) doing the VD groups in that. Or 3x+ the work at lower difficulties. Wanna do Skirmish so your better poised for Ambuscade? Good luck finding help anywhere but Asura. Bluntly, the process isn't self-sustaining. Once content passes its rush, its done. And it was true in 2005 just as it is now. Only reason some things persisted is we were effectively guilt tripped into it by the multiplayer requirement, or the belief that if we scratched someone's back, they'd scratch ours when we needed it. Why else would someone wanna kill Byakko when they've already got their Haidate. Getting the pops certainly weren't fun.
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#199 Sep 19 2016 at 11:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd say his position is being made from someone who realizes SE has put XI out to pasture. Not a whole lot different than just binging some show that recently ended as you lost track of it after season whatever. He wants to finish the proverbial book, close it, and put it back on the shelf.


Yeah, this.

I have no reason to play XI, other than to see how it ends. I have no interest in grinding endgame for gear used for more grinding for more gear for more grinding for more gear -- not without a reason to gear up, which, for me, has always been to help friends and complete story. All but a couple of my friends have left the game -- heck, most of my server has left the game -- and there's no more storyline coming. So I just want to finish the last chapter and epilogue before closing the book for good.

Not that any of this really matters. This is a FFXIV forum, and if I want to rip on FFXI's completely outdated reward/progression system, then this is an appropriate place to do it -- much more so than in a forum filled with people who actually enjoy that kind of torture.

Edited, Sep 19th 2016 10:39pm by Thayos
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#200 Sep 20 2016 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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You're free to do so, considering the age of the game. However, FFXI's story (minus the horrible WoTG's retcon festa) is arguably vastly superior to XIV's "let's advance the plot at a snail pace. Also EDGY and DARKNESS" story approach and fragmented storytelling (do I need to tell again that the entire HW expansion has been a side story?).

For all the flaws XI has, story isn't one of them.

Also as a personal taste I hated the DRK quest storyline in XIV. I prefer much the XI's simpler (and close to certain works by Go Nagai) approach to the class.

Edited, Sep 20th 2016 8:19pm by xizro
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#201 Sep 20 2016 at 12:59 PM Rating: Default
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Sorry but I actually prefer ffxiv's story formatting. We get a complete story from the onset of an expansion. Granted with continuing arcs. But we do not have any mid main storyline hard stops as they did for pretty much every expansion they had.

I even prefer the episodic story continuation to ffxi's format. It's just objectively more story content. Not liking the pacing is just a subjective conversation. Which is fine. But how is that different from any other "my favorite ff is better" argument?
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