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"Human or not" a letter to Yoshi-P & SEFollow

#52 Nov 29 2016 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
I am, too. These lands are no longer fertile for farming.


Things aren't what they used to be, that's for sure. I wonder how Zal and Gwook and Mittens are doing. You should come ******** with me in the FF14 general on h8 chan.
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#53 Nov 29 2016 at 7:34 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I think I'm more excited for XV and VII remake to be honest. XV to see where the genre is going and VII to see just how much SE can milk from it's fans.


Welp... so much for my anticipation for XV. I know it's from a different team, but I think any hope I had for VII remake swirled down the bowl too Smiley: oyvey
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#54 Nov 29 2016 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I think I'm more excited for XV and VII remake to be honest. XV to see where the genre is going and VII to see just how much SE can milk from it's fans.


Welp... so much for my anticipation for XV. I know it's from a different team, but I think any hope I had for VII remake swirled down the bowl too Smiley: oyvey


Is XV bad or something? I haven't been paying attention to it since I don't own a PS4.
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#55 Nov 29 2016 at 8:22 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm sure you could find people streaming it on Twitch. It's still new enough that if it turns out to be something you're interested in, you wouldn't spoil your experience with a sneak peak. Since I'm only a day into it myself I'll reserve judgement, but the prognosis at this point is bleak at best.

I guess if I had to pick something as a highlight of the time I spent playing, it would be the fishing. Then again, that just made me miss Uematsu more. Maybe it just takes a while to build steam, but it's off to a very slow start so I'm not certain I'll actually be motivated to play it enough before my window to return it closes.

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Rinsui wrote:
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#56 Nov 30 2016 at 6:25 AM Rating: Good
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RE:Private Servers:

Private Servers being "illegal" is a matter of semantics. No, a PS will not get you in jail, but then again, not every law broken sends you to jail. You can jaywalk or go speeding and you won't go to jail, but yet those are "illegal".

It's against the ToS, and if you have a paid account and they find out that you also play on a PS, they could shut your account down (the ToS that you agree with every time you start the game says that they can shut your account down for "any reason"), but finding out who plays on PS and who doesn't is rather difficult.

The only recourse of action they have that they can deal with a PS, is to shut the PS itself down and/or go after the owner, but this takes money, a LOT of money if a lawsuit is involved. And almost always, the person who is to be sued doesn't have the money to pay up.

Therefore, companies only do this when the server is large enough that potential lost monthly subs is worth it. Blizzard shutting down and suing that one PS that had the 700k (IIRC?) players was worth it, because that's 700k people not paying Blizzard to play their game, hence why they sued for 700k x ~$15 and some for "damages".

Your average obscure PS though that only has a couple hundred players, though? Not really worth it unless you find out that the PS owner is actually charging a monthly fee, then that's outright theft.

As to whether or not a Private Server is "stealing", it kind of is. In a way. You're allowing people to enjoy Intellectual Property without them having to pay to do so. Normally, you need to go through PlayOnline or MogStation and pay up to be able to play the game, but along comes a private server that says "Play here for free!". If you do, you're not giving SE their money (assuming you're not also playing on the official servers). The PS owner isn't "stealing" SE's money, however, they are causing damages and losses by setting up these private servers.

A PS owner could require a paid subscription, but then there's no way to enforce it that I know of.

When it's all said and done, Private Servers are a rather shady proposition, and one I can't support or condone. These companies spend millions to develop and run an MMO and they need to get some money back out of it to continue doing so, and circumventing the monthly fees is like expecting to ride an airplane for free. If you stow away on a ship or an airplane, you aren't "stealing" anything, right? Except, you are in a roundabout way.
#57 Nov 30 2016 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I'm sure you could find people streaming it on Twitch. It's still new enough that if it turns out to be something you're interested in, you wouldn't spoil your experience with a sneak peak. Since I'm only a day into it myself I'll reserve judgement, but the prognosis at this point is bleak at best.

I guess if I had to pick something as a highlight of the time I spent playing, it would be the fishing. Then again, that just made me miss Uematsu more. Maybe it just takes a while to build steam, but it's off to a very slow start so I'm not certain I'll actually be motivated to play it enough before my window to return it closes.



Ya, I haven't purchased it yet because the same things keep coming up in most reviews.

-The story is poorly told and not very good.

-The 2nd half of the game is mostly just corridors à la FFXIII

-If you ignore most of the MMO style side quests, the main story is only 20 hours.

I eventually will check it out, but not for the 80$ price tag (in Canada).
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#58 Nov 30 2016 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
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What ever happened to the FFXI mobile version that was still supposed to be a mmo? We never hear of it anymore.

I really want to play a mmo that is FF based.
I am going to finish FFXI stories that I have not finished but I honestly have not touched 14 or 11 in months and I completely quit FFXIV.
I really wish SE would launch a MMO that is somewhere between FFXI and FFXIV. That is what I was hoping FFXIV was going to be.
In FFXIV I feel all they really tried to do is tick off anyone that played FFXI. They wanted to be the complete opposite.
They needed to give FFXI fan base something to do because as FFXI dies now that is a decent sized fan base to loose and most are not going to FFXIV. Most of FFXI players that were going to go to FFXIV from FFXI already did. What is funny is I know about 20 or so players who did and only 3 still play FFXIV. They now do not play either.

Talking to allot of FFXI players they despise the game and some blame it for the downfall of FFXI now. If it were not for FFXIV the ffxi fan base would still be pretty strong.






Edited, Nov 30th 2016 9:42am by Nashred
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#59 Nov 30 2016 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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Talking to allot of FFXI players they despise the game and some blame it for the downfall of FFXI now. If it were not for FFXIV the ffxi fan base would still be pretty strong.


While you can reasonably assign some blame on SE for diverting resources from the FFXI team to work on FFXIV, it's not reasonable to assume that if FFXIV had never happened there would still be hundreds of thousands of people playing FFXI.

FFXI is extremely old with dated mechanics and gameplay. I played it for a long time, but I also quit long before FFXIV was even a thing because I just couldn't devote the time necessary to accomplish anything I wanted to do in FFXI anymore. In FFXIV I can accomplish my goals a little at a time and I can make good progress in short play sessions. That was just never a thing with FFXI and I think that more than anything led to its declining player base.
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#60 Nov 30 2016 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
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Talking to allot of FFXI players they despise the game and some blame it for the downfall of FFXI now. If it were not for FFXIV the ffxi fan base would still be pretty strong.


While you can reasonably assign some blame on SE for diverting resources from the FFXI team to work on FFXIV, it's not reasonable to assume that if FFXIV had never happened there would still be hundreds of thousands of people playing FFXI.

FFXI is extremely old with dated mechanics and gameplay. I played it for a long time, but I also quit long before FFXIV was even a thing because I just couldn't devote the time necessary to accomplish anything I wanted to do in FFXI anymore. In FFXIV I can accomplish my goals a little at a time and I can make good progress in short play sessions. That was just never a thing with FFXI and I think that more than anything led to its declining player base.


Not saying it would not be dropping in membership but a ton of people left for FFXIV thinking it was the next FFXI. Some of those players did come back but some still play FFXIV and most do not play any FF MMO.

There is no doubt FFXI was starting to die when FFXIV came out but if FFXIV didn't there would still would be more players that stayed.
Dropping the Xbox seemed to even have a bigger impact on American population.

FFXI still seems to get plenty of new content and allot of it is better than what FFXIV is getting.
Anyone who has not played in several years would be shocked by what they added. Just the amount of storage or another level to the mog house. You can now ride other mounts. Monster raising and mog garden are a huge update.


Edited, Nov 30th 2016 10:34am by Nashred
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#61 Nov 30 2016 at 11:19 AM Rating: Default
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Re: FFXI/FFXIV:

They already said they had plans to move FFXI to the 'windows platform' but didn't have the support or budget for it (due to FFXIV) so what we got now with XI, it would have happened with or without FFXIV existing as they already said seekers and RoV they already had planned out from the start, there's only so much you can do without support from the company. Matsui has expressed numerous times in the past 2 years there's so much they would have done and want to do they simply can't. Then when XIV started bleeding and spiraling downwards, SE reversed their stance on trying to kill off XI for good.

They're under the same policy as FFXIV - make as much money using as little money as possible.

Re: FFXV

If you think "We waited 10+ years for this?" you'll despise it.

If you think "This is a Final Fantasy game.." you probably won't like it as much unless you liked Mystic Quest or the XIII games too, which people say "dont think of it as a FF game" since it's quite closer to a SO game than FF. Oh and realize you don't get all of the story in the game itself, you have to watch the anime and movie.

However, if you think of it as it's own thing, you'll love FFXV. Much like people want to continually bash on XIII for doing everything most of the well loved FF games have done minus having an overworld, XV could be criticized for the same..actually, XV is shorter than XIII-2, you just have a nice illusion thanks to having a large (fairly empty) world map so to speak. There's plenty of side stuff, but let's just say, people nicknaming XV FF Product Placement makes a lot of sense in the grand scheme of things.

It's not a bad game and obviously it's not the same game versus XIII was going to be, so strictly speaking "FFXV", it's nice, but as it's used for the base of FFVII Remake...there's going to be some serious doubts (if you actually look at VII objectively), it'll no doubt be better than the original fairly meh release (face it, it was a broken, rushed game at the end of the day) but it's going to be such a different style that if you hated Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus, you won't like it too much, as that's comparable to XV.

So as an rpg, if you like RPGs you'll like it. As a FF game though? Same rules as XIII apply - If you'll gripe about 1 thing, especially about the story delivery for XIII for example, XV is worse. FFVII was more coherent than XV is at times.
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#62 Nov 30 2016 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
Nashred wrote:
Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Talking to allot of FFXI players they despise the game and some blame it for the downfall of FFXI now. If it were not for FFXIV the ffxi fan base would still be pretty strong.


While you can reasonably assign some blame on SE for diverting resources from the FFXI team to work on FFXIV, it's not reasonable to assume that if FFXIV had never happened there would still be hundreds of thousands of people playing FFXI.

FFXI is extremely old with dated mechanics and gameplay. I played it for a long time, but I also quit long before FFXIV was even a thing because I just couldn't devote the time necessary to accomplish anything I wanted to do in FFXI anymore. In FFXIV I can accomplish my goals a little at a time and I can make good progress in short play sessions. That was just never a thing with FFXI and I think that more than anything led to its declining player base.


Not saying it would not be dropping in membership but a ton of people left for FFXIV thinking it was the next FFXI. Some of those players did come back but some still play FFXIV and most do not play any FF MMO.

There is no doubt FFXI was starting to die when FFXIV came out but if FFXIV didn't there would still would be more players that stayed.
Dropping the Xbox seemed to even have a bigger impact on American population.

FFXI still seems to get plenty of new content and allot of it is better than what FFXIV is getting.
Anyone who has not played in several years would be shocked by what they added. Just the amount of storage or another level to the mog house. You can now ride other mounts. Monster raising and mog garden are a huge update.


Edited, Nov 30th 2016 10:34am by Nashred


The content they've added, along with the QoL stuff has definitely been good. That being said, the game still runs like something from the early 2000s. Sure you can use Windower to unlock the FPS' and all that good stuff, but some people simply can't be bothered. Just trying to do things in Adoulin was so slow, everything still feels cumbersome for the most part. XIV might of had a bit to do with its slow demise, but overall, the game is old and still plays like an old game.

At this point, they would need to rework most of the engine to bring it up to today's standards. That's obviously not happening since it would cost a ton of $$$ to make it happen. At least with XIV, they've learned to slowly upgrade things with expansions so the game doesn't lag behind with the times.

I still love going back to XI every now and then, but it can get frustrating at times.
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#63 Nov 30 2016 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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Not saying it would not be dropping in membership but a ton of people left for FFXIV thinking it was the next FFXI. Some of those players did come back but some still play FFXIV and most do not play any FF MMO.


What that tells me is that some people liked FFXIV better and stayed, some people didn't and went back to FFXI, and some people decided they were done with the whole thing altogether. None of those are bad.

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There is no doubt FFXI was starting to die when FFXIV came out but if FFXIV didn't there would still would be more players that stayed.


There's no basis for that statement.

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FFXI still seems to get plenty of new content and allot of it is better than what FFXIV is getting.


Kind of... They get new ambuscade content (I don't actually know what an ambuscade is, but I recognize that it's frequently updated content). As for "better than what FFXIV is getting" that is entirely a matter of opinion. I'm interested in provable facts here.

Quote:
Anyone who has not played in several years would be shocked by what they added.


I think that anyone who hasn't played FFXI in years and wanted to go back to the game they remembered would be stunned by the changes, and not entirely in a good way. The game moved forward but the structure of the game is nearly unrecognizable from what such a person would've remembered. I've played FFXI recently and from a solo perspective I like the changes because the game is far more solo friendly now than it's ever been, but if I were looking for classic FFXI where I sit in a jungle party for 3 hours I'd be sorely disappointed in the current state of the game.

Tastes are always going to be individual. I want there to be more and varied options in the MMO market so that people can find the game that they want to play, and then they go play it. My ideal MMO market has thousands of games with small playerbases each catering to a niche and fiercely loyal audience because they do what they do really well.

Edited, Nov 30th 2016 11:25am by Callinon
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#64 Nov 30 2016 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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Nashred wrote:
What ever happened to the FFXI mobile version that was still supposed to be a mmo? We never hear of it anymore.


Maybe because they realized how terrible of an idea that is, to make an entirely new game just for mobile instead of putting that money into updating the two games that we already have?

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I really want to play a mmo that is FF based.


Well, good, because there's already two games there.

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I am going to finish FFXI stories that I have not finished but I honestly have not touched 14 or 11 in months and I completely quit FFXIV.


Finishing the story in FFXI is but one of the many things one can do, in fact I just got a family member's Promathia done and we're going to duo Aht Urhgan here soon too. Yes, you can SOLO almost anything in the game now. Go see all of those sights you couldn't if you lacked a good linkshell back in the day!

Quote:
I really wish SE would launch a MMO that is somewhere between FFXI and FFXIV. That is what I was hoping FFXIV was going to be.


This statement is kinda pointless when you don't elaborate on what you wanted from FFXI, but what you don't want from FFXIV.

You like the updated UI of FFXIV I'm assuming? But yet you want things to take absolutely forever to do like in FFXI? I'm having trouble understanding what exactly you want, and you wouldn't be the first to talk about it with this kind of language; I've read over the years many complaints how both games are "not what they wanted".

Well...what DO you want then?

Quote:
In FFXIV I feel all they really tried to do is tick off anyone that played FFXI. They wanted to be the complete opposite.


No, they were trying to reel in the newer generation of MMO gamers that are used to World of Warcraft (and similar games). Hence, why XIV's UI is so friendly and familiar to anybody who has played WoW.

As far as what FFXI players want, I can tell you from the years upon years of experience with the XI community, they don't know what they want. They complain about one thing, then when it is changed, they complain it was changed. There's no pleasing that crowd, and I learned that a long time ago.

Quote:
They needed to give FFXI fan base something to do because as FFXI dies now


FFXI is not dying, lol. I'm on one of the lower populated servers, and you see plenty of people around.

I think most of the problem is, former FFXI players are not aware of how much the game changed. I mean, c'mon, I leveled a mule from 26 to 50 in about 2 or so hours while solo. As I stated previously, you can solo 99% of the game and there's enough to do that you could be at it for months, and that's not even factoring in side-quests.

Quote:
that is a decent sized fan base to loose and most are not going to FFXIV. Most of FFXI players that were going to go to FFXIV from FFXI already did.


Maybe, but again, you kinda need to explain what you think FFXIV does wrong that alienates FFXI players.

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What is funny is I know about 20 or so players who did and only 3 still play FFXIV. They now do not play either.


Maybe they got tired of MMOs in general? I burned out a couple years ago, but hey here I am back again.

Quote:
Talking to allot of FFXI players they despise the game and some blame it for the downfall of FFXI now. If it were not for FFXIV the ffxi fan base would still be pretty strong.


So you're saying that XIV "failed" only because of the XI fanbase? I doubt it.

It just sounds like XIV is floundering a little and they need the same genius minds that brightened XI to brainstorm a few things for XIV.

The first few days after my recent (about 2-3 weeks ago) return to XI, I was absolutely shocked and amazed by some of the genius game design decisions I saw in the game, the whole game was changed so that it is an entirely different beast now, and I have found it rather cool. The last time I "quit" XI, I used to dread logging on because every time I did, I found myself drowsy at the keyboard. Not so much these days, I find myself going out and leveling on mules, chasing after this, and that and just having a good ole time.

If "MMO Sandbox" was ever a genre, I think FFXI would be it. Once you get a job to 99, you can literally do anything you want that you haven't already done yet (except for maybe some Adoulin and Ambuscade content? I'm not sure just how far you can get solo with item level gear. I've read that finishing Rhapsodies is possible with mild difficulty solo), and boy is there ever a ton of stuff to do.

I'm really not understand the "Glass Half Empty" mindset here. Maybe it's because I was never hardcore at either game, maybe it's because I never really treated either game like a 2nd job, I don't know. Maybe most of the whole thing is a PEBKAC problem, where the players themselves are causing the very problems they have with the game (trying to rush the content as fast as they can, and then complain there's nothing to do).

Edited, Nov 30th 2016 5:26pm by Lyrailis
#65 Nov 30 2016 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Re: FFXI Mobile:

Nexon is still making it, they already released Grandmasters (they as in SE) a long time ago, but it's not the MMO one that was advertised. The reason it was outsouced to Nexon is because they agreed to do it cheaply since SE wants to dedicate so little to XI :/
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#66 Nov 30 2016 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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Re: FFXI Mobile:

Nexon is still making it, they already released Grandmasters (they as in SE) a long time ago, but it's not the MMO one that was advertised. The reason it was outsouced to Nexon is because they agreed to do it cheaply since SE wants to dedicate so little to XI :/


I tried the Japanese version of Grandmasters and it was actually pretty fun. I didn't stick with it very long since I'm not anything like fluent in Japanese and it takes me approximately forever to translate things to a useful degree, but I enjoyed the gameplay. Wouldn't mind an English release of that. I'd play it.
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#67 Nov 30 2016 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
Re: FFXI Mobile:

Nexon is still making it, they already released Grandmasters (they as in SE) a long time ago, but it's not the MMO one that was advertised. The reason it was outsouced to Nexon is because they agreed to do it cheaply since SE wants to dedicate so little to XI :/


Still not sure why we need a mobile game that is based upon XI, but ah well if that's what they want... *shrugs*

They are "Dedicating so little to XI" because the game is clearly showing its age. As much as I enjoy logging in now, I realize that I'm used to it because I played it for years. However, a brand new player logging on to XI for the very first time is not going to think too highly of the game because of the various simple things like UI issues that really should be solved.

There's so many "WHY!?" things having to do with XI's UI that can at times make the game frustrating, even for a veteran player who's accustomed to it. As much fun as the openness of the game can be, the UI issues can sometimes make it difficult to do simple tasks that really need to be easier.

And now since XI is PC-Only, I'm left wondering why some of this stuff hasn't been changed. I can only hope that some day, they can come up with the resources to spruce some of the game's main systems up, the things that hamper players' enjoyment the most, such as....

1). Only having 8 slots in your delivery box ingoing OR outgoing.
2). Said 8 items stay there until the other person removes them.
3). The myriad of redundant Y/N prompts when doing something simple -- Find the item... "Do you really want this item?" and then "Really make this purchase?" etc.
4). The inability to open two windows simultaneously because of a lack of real mouse support.
5). Not using the standard shop UI for things like Sparks of Eminence purchases (that would make it SO much easier).
6). Not showing Level/Aggressive status by the mobs' names like XIV does.
7). No Drag&Drop support for macros (open magic list, drag spell to macro, boom. instant /ma spell <t> macro, can add more stuff if needed).
8). Tidying up outdated, obsolete systems, such as the rented chocobos (unlike mounts) will not allow the player to enter an indoor area/town without dismounting first.
9). A real Honest-to-God Borderless Window mode so we don't have to download a 3rd Party App to get it.
10). While we're at it, how about a config program that actually explains what exactly the stuff on it means so I don't have to go wiki it?
11). Skippable cutscenes. I know this is gonna be a little controversial, but seriously I don't need to see the first Rhapsodies of Vana'diel cutscene on every single one of my six characters. Doubly so for Rise of Shantotto's cutscene which takes for-stinking-ever to get done. It was interesting the first time I saw it, but the 5th+ time, I groan when I step into some area that triggers a mandatory cutscene and wonder why they didn't put that on an NPC instead because I'm in a hurry and I need to do something.
12). Having to clear AH Sales History instead of it just doing that automatically.

And a whole other list of small things that you see that you KNOW the game is horribly old when you see them.

I bet if some of this stuff were fixed... they could attract a lot of former players back to the game, or make it easier for an existing player to bring in someone new.

Edited, Nov 30th 2016 6:07pm by Lyrailis

Edited, Nov 30th 2016 6:12pm by Lyrailis
#68 Nov 30 2016 at 5:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Re: FFXI Mobile:

Nexon is still making it, they already released Grandmasters (they as in SE) a long time ago, but it's not the MMO one that was advertised. The reason it was outsouced to Nexon is because they agreed to do it cheaply since SE wants to dedicate so little to XI :/


I tried the Japanese version of Grandmasters and it was actually pretty fun. I didn't stick with it very long since I'm not anything like fluent in Japanese and it takes me approximately forever to translate things to a useful degree, but I enjoyed the gameplay. Wouldn't mind an English release of that. I'd play it.


Yeah I stuck with it, next to Brave Frontier and FFEX it's one of the only mobile games I actually stuck with in the 'modern days' that weren't obvious cash grabs. These have their 'energy' system but it's still more playable than many other games out there.

Quote:
1). Only having 8 slots in your delivery box ingoing OR outgoing.
2). Said 8 items stay there until the other person removes them.
3). The myriad of redundant Y/N prompts when doing something simple -- Find the item... "Do you really want this item?" and then "Really make this purchase?" etc.
4). The inability to open two windows simultaneously because of a lack of real mouse support.
5). Not using the standard shop UI for things like Sparks of Eminence purchases (that would make it SO much easier).
6). Not showing Level/Aggressive status by the mobs' names like XIV does.
7). No Drag&Drop support for macros (open magic list, drag spell to macro, boom. instant /ma spell <t> macro, can add more stuff if needed).
8). Tidying up outdated, obsolete systems, such as the rented chocobos (unlike mounts) will not allow the player to enter an indoor area/town without dismounting first.
9). A real Honest-to-God Borderless Window mode so we don't have to download a 3rd Party App to get it.
10). While we're at it, how about a config program that actually explains what exactly the stuff on it means so I don't have to go wiki it?
11). Skippable cutscenes. I know this is gonna be a little controversial, but seriously I don't need to see the first Rhapsodies of Vana'diel cutscene on every single one of my six characters.


1. This is mostly a server limitation for back in the 90s, so it's something they probably could fix but that takes some time and money which SE has to dedicate, since Matsui always say he wishes they were given a bigger budget.
2. Linked to 1 since given the age of XI it'd take some work to detangle all of that lol.
3. Sadly this was done in response to players at the time (and as proven by XIV players) due to accidentally tossing things. In XIV people still somehow "accidentally" throw away stuff despite all the prompts.
5. This is definitely something I can see changing out of anything, menus within menus was originally for the "oldschool FF feel" and at the time it was actually fine since other MMOs was similar in the sense you'd have 9838283 windows open, so strangely, even now, XI is still fairly clean UI wise.
6. They send the packet to your client already so it's very possible they can update it. (similar to how we got fed the tp/mp of alliance but it was never shown, they made available much later)
7. Would be nice and I believe this is something the new UI was supporting, but that idea is in limbo due to, well, no support from SE.
8. I thought they auto dismount now on chocobos universally, but i only ever ride my tiger these days lol..
9. All part of their plan for new UI that sadly never got finished.
10. Same as #9.
11. This is sadly due to XI's age and each zone having a godly amount of flags. It's all part of why they want more support/funding from SE so they can go deeper into changing things with XI. WoTG era was when they initially planned to revamp XI but instead it became XIV 1.0.
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#69 Nov 30 2016 at 5:58 PM Rating: Good
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9. All part of their plan for new UI that sadly never got finished.


What I don't understand, is if some random joe can make an API hook that makes the game run in Borderless Window, why can't the actual devs who have access to the source code do it so much more easily?

It's one of THE most asked for features, and has been since during XI's heyday, you'd think they'd go "Well, ok, we don't have the funds for New UI, but surely one of our devs can spend a couple hours and throw it in"?

It surely can't be that difficult if a third party can write an API hook to do it, lol.
#70 Nov 30 2016 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah it's not hard at all, but since they've been tossing new programmers at XI it's probably something they'll randomly throw in on these monthly updates one day lol
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#71 Dec 01 2016 at 5:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
Nashred wrote:
Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Talking to allot of FFXI players they despise the game and some blame it for the downfall of FFXI now. If it were not for FFXIV the ffxi fan base would still be pretty strong.


While you can reasonably assign some blame on SE for diverting resources from the FFXI team to work on FFXIV, it's not reasonable to assume that if FFXIV had never happened there would still be hundreds of thousands of people playing FFXI.

FFXI is extremely old with dated mechanics and gameplay. I played it for a long time, but I also quit long before FFXIV was even a thing because I just couldn't devote the time necessary to accomplish anything I wanted to do in FFXI anymore. In FFXIV I can accomplish my goals a little at a time and I can make good progress in short play sessions. That was just never a thing with FFXI and I think that more than anything led to its declining player base.


Not saying it would not be dropping in membership but a ton of people left for FFXIV thinking it was the next FFXI. Some of those players did come back but some still play FFXIV and most do not play any FF MMO.

There is no doubt FFXI was starting to die when FFXIV came out but if FFXIV didn't there would still would be more players that stayed.
Dropping the Xbox seemed to even have a bigger impact on American population.

FFXI still seems to get plenty of new content and allot of it is better than what FFXIV is getting.
Anyone who has not played in several years would be shocked by what they added. Just the amount of storage or another level to the mog house. You can now ride other mounts. Monster raising and mog garden are a huge update.


Edited, Nov 30th 2016 10:34am by Nashred


The content they've added, along with the QoL stuff has definitely been good. That being said, the game still runs like something from the early 2000s. Sure you can use Windower to unlock the FPS' and all that good stuff, but some people simply can't be bothered. Just trying to do things in Adoulin was so slow, everything still feels cumbersome for the most part. XIV might of had a bit to do with its slow demise, but overall, the game is old and still plays like an old game.

At this point, they would need to rework most of the engine to bring it up to today's standards. That's obviously not happening since it would cost a ton of $$$ to make it happen. At least with XIV, they've learned to slowly upgrade things with expansions so the game doesn't lag behind with the times.

I still love going back to XI every now and then, but it can get frustrating at times.



I agree totally FFXI feels old and clunky especially the menu system and especially since playing FFXIV.. FFXIV menu system and controls work well and feel real smooth.
We are finishing Adoulin and I remember it was one of the reasons we left the game. It did not feel right and slow but now playing FFXIV it does not feel so bad. Content feels better for FFXI even thought the game feels old. Content is still more creative than FFXIV which is sad for a game that does not get much money thrown after it,
Thing is we do not have a ton left to finish in FFXI and for the most part wont have enough to do.
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#72 Dec 01 2016 at 5:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
Re: FFXI Mobile:

Nexon is still making it, they already released Grandmasters (they as in SE) a long time ago, but it's not the MMO one that was advertised. The reason it was outsouced to Nexon is because they agreed to do it cheaply since SE wants to dedicate so little to XI :/


Yea I saw that Grandmasters was released but the mmo has not been talked about at all since. Last I heard is it was named FFXI reboot and was to launch in 2016.There was a few screen shots.
I am not sure I would even be much interested in a mobile version but would certainly give it a try.
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#73 Dec 01 2016 at 7:30 PM Rating: Good
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I am not sure I would even be much interested in a mobile version but would certainly give it a try.


I'm more curious than anything. I honestly don't know how you make FFXI work on a mobile platform especially given how clunky the existing UI already is.
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#74 Dec 02 2016 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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"Private Servers being "illegal" is a matter of semantics. No, a PS will not get you in jail, but then again, not every law broken sends you to jail. You can jaywalk or go speeding and you won't go to jail, but yet those are "illegal". "

No you may not go to jail fo the thinsg you listed but you WILL get a ticket. SO SOMETHING happens for you doing it, unlike private servers
#75 Dec 02 2016 at 4:38 PM Rating: Default
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6). Not showing Level/Aggressive status by the mobs' names like XIV does.


That was one of the best features of FFXI... exploring the unknown wilderness... Not knowing that small cute mandy was aggressive or not.... Or being surprised when things that definitely looked aggressive, werent.. I mean we're supposed to be Adventurer's so may as well be Adventurous right?
#76 Dec 03 2016 at 5:59 AM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
"Private Servers being "illegal" is a matter of semantics. No, a PS will not get you in jail, but then again, not every law broken sends you to jail. You can jaywalk or go speeding and you won't go to jail, but yet those are "illegal". "

No you may not go to jail fo the thinsg you listed but you WILL get a ticket. SO SOMETHING happens for you doing it, unlike private servers


Ever tried the quote feature? It works wonders.

Anyways, as far as PS goes... ask the people who got sued by Blizzard what happens when you run a PS that gets too successful. I can't remember a jaywalker ever getting drug into court and having to pay legal fees. IIRC, the case was dropped/settled/abandoned, but the defendants surely had legal fees to deal with which were far, far more than a jaywalking ticket would ever bring.

Quote:
That was one of the best features of FFXI... exploring the unknown wilderness... Not knowing that small cute mandy was aggressive or not.... Or being surprised when things that definitely looked aggressive, werent.. I mean we're supposed to be Adventurer's so may as well be Adventurous right?


I'd venture a guess that the majority of players simply hop on over to a wiki and look it up. I know I do.

I don't like wasting time (something XI gobbles up in huge quantities anyways) trying to figure out basic stuff like "Will this attack me or not?"

I have better things to spend time on, and I really don't see where it "takes away" from the exploration aspect of the game; there's plenty of areas I've not seen and missions I've not done yet and not knowing whether or not something is aggressive doesn't really add any exploration aspect either.

And now, with Item Level in XI, you can't even tell what level a mob is to you because things that are Lv70-90+ all check as "Incredibly Easy Prey". Yeah, that's.........vague. It's pointless to even have a /check command at Lv99 these days, because EVERYTHING outside of endgame checks as "Incredibly Easy Prey" with Low Defense and Low Evasion. Every. Thing.

But yet, it'd be nice to know what level this stuff was, so I can predict how good XP it might be to kill it, or if it isn't worth bothering with, or whether or not it can actually hurt me (a Lv99 enemy casting -ga III might actually hit for a couple hundred HP; a Lv75 mob doing it won't even tickle me for example).

Yet one more thing I need to alt-tab out of the game for. You want to talk about Exploration? Maybe I'd like to talk about Immersion. Alt-tabbing out of the game destroys immersion and I find myself doing it constantly while playing XI. You kinda have to, because the game does not tell you anything about anything hardly. They did add crafting lists, but it takes hours to find what you're looking for through convoluted menus.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2016 7:02am by Lyrailis
#77 Dec 03 2016 at 8:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
Yet one more thing I need to alt-tab out of the game for. You want to talk about Exploration? Maybe I'd like to talk about Immersion. Alt-tabbing out of the game destroys immersion and I find myself doing it constantly while playing XI. You kinda have to, because the game does not tell you anything about anything hardly. They did add crafting lists, but it takes hours to find what you're looking for through convoluted menus.


Don't be offended please, but I will be short and to the point here since I've spent quite a bit of time posting about this subject already(both here on ZAM and in other forums)...

You are doing it wrong.

FFXI is a game heralded by most as having one of, if not THE best community in an MMO. The reason? Well a large part of it was the fact that the game didn't spoon-feed players everything. The fact that you didn't know everything, weren't told everything or didn't have a wiki to visit with all the answers was a large part of what fueled that community. You're not supposed to Alt-Tab, you're supposed to talk to people, make friends and either ask them for help or learn on your own.

I honestly felt like SE drove me up to the front gates of my home city, threw me out on my neck and flicked a few gil at me as they drove away laughing. It was cold, it was brutal and it was unforgiving. It was also the closest SE has come to RPG in ages. I hated loving every minute of it and I still have fantastic nightmares about it to this day.



Edited, Dec 3rd 2016 9:43pm by FilthMcNasty
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#78 Dec 03 2016 at 9:44 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

Don't be offended please, but I will be short and to the point here since I've spent quite a bit of time posting about this subject already(both here on ZAM and in other forums)...


No worries, it takes quite a bit to actually offend me, lol.

Quote:
You are doing it wrong.


I'm doing it the only way I know how, and the only way I really see possible to be honest.

Quote:
FFXI is a game heralded by most as having one of, if not THE best community in an MMO. The reason? Well a large part of it was the fact that the game didn't spoon-feed players everything. The fact that you didn't know everything, weren't told everything or didn't have a wiki to visit with all the answers was a large part of what fueled that community. You're not supposed to Alt-Tab, you're supposed to talk to people, make friends and either ask them for help or learn on your own.


I remember the older days of XI, back before Fairy was merged with Sylph, and I remember how people would ask questions and they would go unanswered for long periods of time. I remember people getting ridiculed for armor, subjob, and even main job choices. I remember the Elitist standpoint that many NA players had during those days, where you were expected to be as self-sufficient as possible; back when I did CoP with my linkshell at the time, you were expected to wiki everything, and if you showed up to a fight without having all of your cutscenes, you were simply left behind.

Back then, I didn't run Windower; I had a laptop computer running next to my PC (that I bought for that very purpose) JUST to look stuff up on wiki because I had to. I remember the playerbase back then being somewhat toxic (or at least at the time I thought of it as toxic... little did I know that it was tame compared to what I would later see in WoW) towards newbie players, and players looking for information.

Maybe that has changed, but it left me and my family member with a very sour taste in our mouths. We do everything solo/duo now, and now that 95% of the game is solo or duo-able, that's quite fine with us. A whole new world is open to us now.

Quote:
I honestly felt like SE drove me up to the front gates of my home city, threw me out on my neck and flicked a few gil at me as they drove away laughing. It was cold, it was brutal and it was unforgiving. It was also the closest SE has come to RPG in ages. I hated loving every minute of it and I still have fantastic nightmares about it to this day.


Perhaps we have a different view of what a "game" is supposed to be.

I play games to pass time, to relax, to have fun. I'm not in it for challenge (though if it is TOO easy to where you can't possibly fail, then it gets too boring), I'm not in it to have to run around aimlessly trying to figure out which NPC, Door, or Object gives me the next cutscene and in a lot of cases, it simply does not make sense what you are supposed to do next.

Just earlier today, said family member and I did a couple Rhapsodies. One of them required WOTG missions up to a certain point. One of said missions, an NPC says "we're going to Sauromugue to do some scouting!" Okay, fine, we go to Sauromugue. I look it up on wiki and for some weird reason, you're supposed to check the locked Jueno doors for your cutscene. Out of all the ???s in Sauromugue, doors, objects, and other junk, THAT door held the cutscene.

I have an RL job, and I simply don't have the time, energy, or desire to check every single clickable object in the zone to figure out WHAT actually progresses the mission. I simply don't. Nor do I have time to sit around with my thumbs up my rear waiting on someone to answer shouts, to which I imagine the answer will be "go to bg wiki" or something similar.

I'm not offended by what you said in the least, but surely you can understand where I'm coming from?

The game is absolutely full of convoluted stuff that makes no sense and/or stuff that there was no way you could have possibly known other than brute force attempts what you were supposed to do.
#79 Dec 03 2016 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I remember the older days of XI, back before Fairy was merged with Sylph, and I remember how people would ask questions and they would go unanswered for long periods of time. I remember people getting ridiculed for armor, subjob, and even main job choices. I remember the Elitist standpoint that many NA players had during those days, where you were expected to be as self-sufficient as possible; back when I did CoP with my linkshell at the time, you were expected to wiki everything, and if you showed up to a fight without having all of your cutscenes, you were simply left behind.


This, honestly, is what pops into my mind any time someone gets all misty eyed about what a great community FFXI had. Yeah it had its moments sure, but there was also a definite dark side to it that people just sort of forget about.
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#80 Dec 04 2016 at 7:17 AM Rating: Default
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It is interesting though, if you bring XI in a positive light people will say it was actually negative. I loved XI's peak community - the only time I've ever seen someone go unanswered if is they ask a dumb question, especially if you're max level. No 75 RDM should ever be caught dead asking "what am I supposed to do?" No 75 BLM should ever be caught dead asking "what are the elemental wheel resistances?" No 75 SMN/20 SMN (Later) should be caught dead without their avatars or asking what x buff does and so on. I never seen someone ignore people on basic questions, but I have seen people get ignored or 'go wiki' on dumb questions you should know the answer to after over 200 hours+ of gameplay in the early days lol.

FFXI was built in such a way that most of your questions are answered by time you hit level 75. People, unlike this game and most modern MMO communities, didn't take your **** or let you get away with being a ****. You had your douche LS leaders and such, but if you were a known troll, asshat, ninja lotter etc, it gets around the whole FFXI community, you're essentially blacklisted as long as people will recognize you and even if you name change and server hop people find out fairly quickly as old habits die hard.

For most of XI's prime (2004-2008) you had to work with the community, not everyone clicked but it was far more of a COMMUNITY than games these days being designed like single player games largely. I never forget about the "dark side" because I still remember VERY vividly how Dokaka singlehandedly destroyed the JP <> NA relationship for the rest of XI's lifespan and not because he stole the item, but the aftermath of resulting NA players belittling the Japanese for being "too trusting in an MMO" and given the time frame this happened, there were very few international MMOs even running (most had separate servers) I also remember the elitist community very well too. But the whole "wiki everything" is true for just about every MMO and every game known to date - **** most companies opt to have their OWN wiki if possible because it's just so much easier. Wikis are essentially online Reference Books/Strategy Guides, I've yet to play an MMO that actually spelled everything out for you that had a lot going for it. XIV is such a simple MMO where very little matters, even the community, so the stuff spelled out for you in XIV is to be expected these days, but back in the day it wasn't as common as one may think.

Not everything was clear in XI but that just added to the atmosphere, someone had to find out how to complete the quests/kill bosses etc to even populate said wiki and I can tell you now dat mining doesn't reveal everything nor did polutils - it reveals a lot but a lot is still stored server side and ironically, came from Japanese wiki which BG loved to steal and take credit for back on their wiki.
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#81 Dec 04 2016 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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Uh, I was talking about legitimate questions, such as "Where do you find _____?" (insert quest start NPC here)

Or "How do you get ______" (insert quest/armor/weapon/spell scroll/area here)

And the like. The answer was almost always the same, from what I could tell. It was some form of "Go look it up, (insert insult/expletive here)!"

As far as populating the wiki goes, when you have a big linkshell of 50+ players, brute forcing is easy. Get a few dozen people all trying to get the same quest done, and the information is quickly found when you got a couple dozen players scouring the zone until one says "Oh here it is, I found it!"

But how is a lone person supposed to do this in any reasonable time-frame? The quest will (sometimes) tell you what zone to go to... but that's it. A zone is large, and oftentimes full of aggressive mobs that you (back then) couldn't hope to fight solo.

And I remember the hours and hours and hours of waiting to try to get a quest done. I remember hours of seeing the same person shouting for something in Jeuno (usually Genkis) and they'd still be shouting, hours later, after I got back from an XP group or something.

I remember a few quests I needed and it took hours and when I finally DID get some help, it was 50/50 if we actually had enough help to actually do the quest in question. And then, the people who wanted paid for every little thing. My God, some people were charging 50k, 100k gil to kill 3 mobs in Xarcabard and such a few times I remember. It took like 15-20min and they were bilking people out of their last gil just to get a limit break quest done, and these limit breaks as you remember absolutely halted progress on your character until you got it done and they were NOT soloable whatsoever.

EDIT: ZAM decided to fall asleep for five min or something, but anyways, I suppose the community looked great from the top -- if you knew good people, and if you were in a linkshell then yeah, I bet you had a fun time. But if you were some newbie that didn't know anybody, didn't really have any connections really then everything was colder than Shiva's home. Very rarely did you find anybody willing to help without being paid, and people just ignored you or gave you cold shoulder. It was difficult enough JUST trying to get a group to get XP, I remember seeing people who make minor mistakes being chewed out because they were "dragging the XP down" or people would get kicked out of groups as soon as they got a certain level ("You're +2 levels... bye.") without even asking them if they wanted to at least get buffer. When you're at the bottom, the community wasn't so great. It felt cold and uncaring 95% of the time. I do have a few fond memories of a couple people along the way that I met, but most of my dealings with random people I'd very much chosen to forget. Which is why I go solo most of the time these days.

Edited, Dec 4th 2016 5:00pm by Lyrailis
#82 Dec 05 2016 at 12:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
But how is a lone person supposed to do this in any reasonable time-frame? The quest will (sometimes) tell you what zone to go to... but that's it. A zone is large, and oftentimes full of aggressive mobs that you (back then) couldn't hope to fight solo.

It's incredibly difficult for me to see why you put the words FFXI and solo in the same sentence unless you're lavishing praise on Lord Avesta. Literally everything you're shown, nearly every step of your journey tells you that you won't get far in this game if you're planning on going it alone.

Leveling beyond 15, subjob items, traveling to J-town, farming your keys for the Khazam airship, unlocking advanced jobs, more leveling, Rank 3.. all the way down the chain.

I get that you have limited time and you want to get on, get something done and get out. As someone with less hours a week to game than I have fingers, I can relate. Had I not had the time to invest back then, I probably wouldn't have made it out of the gates. I knew well before I left to explore the wilds on my own that I was going to need help. We, were going to need to help each other.

Misty-eyed about the community? Perhaps. I think it's more to do with the fact that I made my community. I made my own groups most of the time. I initiated my mostly static for ZM out of groups I had been in leveling up. Many of those players went on to join us in Dynamis and/or Sky. Subsequently the CoP static and Sea farms. I also co-ran a HNM shell. Thanks to a chill job at the time I was able to fish for an hour or two so I broke into 90+ skill prior to the changes.

I got a ******** of things done. I don't want a cookie. I'm not patting myself on the back here. I honestly think that I did it more out of necessity than anything else. I just realized early that it was going to take a lot of effort on my part and a lot of help from other people to stay active in so many different areas of the game.

Forgive me if it comes off as smug, but I feel it's a pretty good explanation for why the solo comments don't hold up for me.
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#83 Dec 05 2016 at 11:09 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Lyrailis wrote:
But how is a lone person supposed to do this in any reasonable time-frame? The quest will (sometimes) tell you what zone to go to... but that's it. A zone is large, and oftentimes full of aggressive mobs that you (back then) couldn't hope to fight solo.

It's incredibly difficult for me to see why you put the words FFXI and solo in the same sentence unless you're lavishing praise on Lord Avesta. Literally everything you're shown, nearly every step of your journey tells you that you won't get far in this game if you're planning on going it alone.


I have no idea who Lord Avesta is, but to be honest, a successful MMO needs both solo and group content.

Gating EVERYTHING behind groups is a horrible, and terrible idea because you just end up with bottlenecks like you did in oldschool XI where you have lots of people needing crap that nobody has any sort of incentive to help out with, like the genkai quests. Mandatory grouped content sucks, unless there's matchmaking like XIV has. And sometimes it still sucks, if you end up waiting for 45+ min queue to get a required dungeon done.

Quote:
Leveling beyond 15, subjob items, traveling to J-town, farming your keys for the Khazam airship, unlocking advanced jobs, more leveling, Rank 3.. all the way down the chain.


Nowadays, this can be done solo and very easily and the game is better off for it. No longer do you gotta wait around for people to help you out of the goodness of their hearts (they usually didn't....), no longer do you have these immense massive roadblocks in front of you.

It can be done solo now, and it's far better than it used to be.

Quote:
I get that you have limited time and you want to get on, get something done and get out. As someone with less hours a week to game than I have fingers, I can relate. Had I not had the time to invest back then, I probably wouldn't have made it out of the gates. I knew well before I left to explore the wilds on my own that I was going to need help. We, were going to need to help each other.


That's all great when you join a fresh new MMO, but after the MMO has aged and you join it not knowing anybody when you go in? It sucks. Everybody else is established and nobody has time for you, the newbie who has nothing to offer in return.

Quote:
Misty-eyed about the community? Perhaps. I think it's more to do with the fact that I made my community. I made my own groups most of the time. I initiated my mostly static for ZM out of groups I had been in leveling up. Many of those players went on to join us in Dynamis and/or Sky. Subsequently the CoP static and Sea farms. I also co-ran a HNM shell. Thanks to a chill job at the time I was able to fish for an hour or two so I broke into 90+ skill prior to the changes.


You got lucky. I've tried making my own groups, didn't work out. I had a variable hour job, where week-to-week was different (it's better now, but it was worse back then). I didn't know what days or nights I would have off until 2 weeks prior. Sometimes I would have a Wednesday Night off, other times it would be Thursday Night instead. Trying to make or join any type of HNM/Dynamis/Whatever shell was absolutely impossible for me.

Quote:
I got a ******** of things done. I don't want a cookie. I'm not patting myself on the back here. I honestly think that I did it more out of necessity than anything else. I just realized early that it was going to take a lot of effort on my part and a lot of help from other people to stay active in so many different areas of the game.

Forgive me if it comes off as smug, but I feel it's a pretty good explanation for why the solo comments don't hold up for me.


I wouldn't say it comes off as "smug", it's just merely again... you need to realize you had a LOT of good fortune come your way, a lot of good fortune that many other players didn't have. You admit you had a more easy-going job, you had consistent hours, a consistent schedule and you were able to meet people and make friends and get one or more linkshells together. You were able to do this.

Myself, and other players, were not.

It is just as difficult for me to understand what it was like to be someone like you, just as much as it is difficult for you to understand what it is like to be in the shoes of a person like me.

But all of that is irrelevant now -- solo to 99 is 100% possible, or at least that's my theory. I can only see two minor roadblocks to soloing to 99 -- Genkai #2 and I think #3? The one that asks you to go to the 3 beastmen homes for their crests, and that one where you have to kill the 3 mobs in Xarcabard. I think the beastman homes are do-able, they just need extreme caution and/or suicide runs. The mobs in Xarcabard? Depends on whether or not you picked a good DD job. I've never tried to 5-man them at the level they were meant to be done at, but from testimonials that I've read, it sounds like it should be possible.

Otherwise, solo to 99 is entirely possible and relatively easy if you know what you're doing. There's a lot of learning, and making mistakes will get you killed, but again, you're still learning how to play. Though, sadly, skillchains, magic bursts, and general behavior in parties is not something you're going to learn... but I suppose that's a small price to pay for actually being able to get things done in a realistic time-frame. And besides, the easier Ambuscades sound like a decent place to get to know group mechanics.

That's assuming people still do the easier Ambuscades.... I dunno, I've never stepped foot in one myself, I've had so much to do and I read that they reset every month, so I was waiting until this month's reset before I give it a bash.
#84 Dec 05 2016 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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I never had a problem getting teams together in FFXI. The player base in general was a lot more helpful and social than the current generation, a lot of people were always down to help out with stuff cause the game promotes that kind of interactivity. Even without a LS you could just shout in the city and some bored high level would help you out with your LB quest or whatever it was you needed.
#85 Dec 05 2016 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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BrokenFox wrote:
I never had a problem getting teams together in FFXI. The player base in general was a lot more helpful and social than the current generation, a lot of people were always down to help out with stuff cause the game promotes that kind of interactivity. Even without a LS you could just shout in the city and some bored high level would help you out with your LB quest or whatever it was you needed.


What he's saying, and keeps being ignored, is that this isn't always the case. I myself have stood in Jeuno and shouted for literal days trying to get something like an AF3 quest or an LB quest done and gotten nothing. The community in FFXI was fantastic...except when it wasn't and the entire experience of the game was hard locked to getting community help with basically everything. I used to joke that I couldn't walk down the street and buy a hot dog without a balanced party of 6 in that game.

If you had a good group of people or you were really good at putting groups together then your experience was great. If you didn't have either of those things, your experience was randomly good and randomly awful. Acknowledging that the community wasn't always amazing doesn't mean they weren't sometimes amazing.
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#86 Dec 05 2016 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Of course it wasn't always amazing, nothing is, but it was a **** of a lot better than the playerbases we have today.
#87 Dec 05 2016 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
Of course it wasn't always amazing, nothing is, but it was a **** of a lot better than the playerbases we have today.


I don't think anybody in this thread implied otherwise or disagreed with that one bit, lol.

The main issue, is that the game itself exacerbated the small amounts of nastiness that was in the community, to make them much more noticeable.

In games like WoW, or XIV, you can just turn off chat channels and Q up for whatever dungeons you need. You run into the occasional idiot or rude person, but you can mute them, ignore them, or if it's bad enough, simply leave dungeon and re-queue.

However, in XI, you didn't really have this option, it was find a group or not get anything done at all, and if you needed something like a genkai quest, you were unable to play, period, because your character had hit a roadblock in their progression. You could go level another job of course, but what if you had no interest in the other jobs? What if you couldn't find groups? That, and shouting for both a genkai and a leveling party at the same time could be difficult, and there's always the issue that if you get a group, and say 30 min later you then get a group for genkai then you ditch your leveling party and earn yourself a bad name.

Meanwhile, XIV allows you to Q for everything you can't solo and makes use of Level Sync and provides rewards for people to help you get through something. That way, you don't feel like such a leech when some high level helps you through something. They get rewards for their time, too.

You might not be actively shouting in towns and getting to know people, but still, there is a group mechanic there, and you do end up grouping with other human players. I feel it's a decent compromise to the problem that XI had.

EDIT: Another awesome thing that XI did that solved much of the problem? Trust magic. One of my favorite things (right next to mounts!) that they added in recent years. I just wish they would have updated your Adventuring Fellow that it could compete with Trust Magic... at the very least they could remove most of the stupid restrictions and penalties for using the Fellow.

Edited, Dec 5th 2016 5:13pm by Lyrailis
#88 Dec 05 2016 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:

In games like WoW, or XIV, you can just turn off chat channels and Q up for whatever dungeons you need.


Yeah, and I hate that.

Well.. I only half hate it. I wouldn't mind it so much if it wasn't cross-server, cause then at least you'd be playing with people you'd recognize and it'd still keep the server community intact. Pretty sure that's how it was when WoW first introduced it. Once it went cross server people went full ******** anon and everyone just stops caring. It's like playing with evil robots. Might as well play a single player game at that point.

Edited, Dec 5th 2016 5:32pm by BrokenFox
#89 Dec 05 2016 at 4:43 PM Rating: Good
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Pretty sure that's how it was when WoW first introduced it.


No, it was cross-server from the beginning. Limited to your battlegroup, but each battlegroup was like 15 servers or something. These days it's only limited by region (NA, EU, etc).

I don't entirely disagree with you about the effects of a cross server matchmaker like this. But I will say that queue times for a server-only version would be abominable especially at non-peak times. I've been doing the CT weekly for aether oils lately and it can take up to 2+ hours to get a party for any of them and that's WITH the cross server functionality.
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#90 Dec 05 2016 at 7:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sometimes you just gotta go with the lesser of two evils.

Sure, it allows the players to be essentially anon, but then again, not having cross-server matchmaking makes the whole game too boring, where you spend more time waiting than actually playing.

In an ideal world, we would have full-on community interaction with no automated matchmakers.

But this isn't an ideal world, so we kinda have to look at which would be worse: forcing players to wait hours, days, maybe months to get something done, or allow automated x-server matchmaking and suffer the consequences of anonymity going on in random groups.

And besides, all matchmakers, XIV's and WoW's included, allow a partial group to Q up. You can still go in with members of your Guild/FC/Linkshell/Friends/Whatever and fill the rest of the group with random pickups and still get the content done. It isn't like you're forced to queue solo for most of this stuff TBH.

There's still incentive to group up before Q'ing, and the bigger your group is, the faster the Q time will be, and the less chance that you will have of wiping. Having 6 players from the same FC and picking up 2 random pickups will probably give you a better group than having 2 FC members and 6 random pickups, or even worse, Q'ing solo.

But Q'ing solo is an option that exists if you need it.
#91 Dec 06 2016 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I think XI's community has always been bad, from the beginning, especially on Asura. There was a reason most of the stuff I did in the game it was with six (six, not a linkshell) people, mostly known IRL as well.

Also, early community efforts were generally, like most MMO, pointed to the easier solution (see Promyvion strategies with Rangers and Summoners) or sometimes ended up promoting wrong information - that was especially evident during the CoP days where most people who posted here hated the expansion and its story-focused structure (and by the way, back then the wiki didn't exsist in a complete form so most of the strategies we did with our group were improvised on the spot, with varying results).

XI however was built around the concept of party play, in this way is very "Japanese" (similar concepts can be applied to the ideas of Skillchains and Magic Bursts) and only years later it started to add more solo-friendly features.

XIV is an entirely different thing, though it plays safe too much for my tastes.
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#92 Dec 06 2016 at 7:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
I have no idea who Lord Avesta is, but to be honest, a successful MMO needs both solo and group content.

I added the 'Lord' part myself. His name was just Avesta and he was well known throughout the community as a player who could do things groups and small alliances struggled with all by himself. Basically, he was the only person who you could properly credit as playing FFXI solo.

Also, I'm not sure what your requisites are for deeming something 'successful', but FFXI is SE's highest grossing Final Fantasy title to date. This happened before the QoL changes that made the game solo and low-man friendly and I think that kinds sums up part of my point here. FFXI was a successful game in spite of(read: because of) it's group-centric focus.

Lyrailis wrote:
That's all great when you join a fresh new MMO, but after the MMO has aged and you join it not knowing anybody when you go in? It sucks. Everybody else is established and nobody has time for you, the newbie who has nothing to offer in return.

I'm not sure what else to say honestly. I don't see any game where players come together being almost completely devoid of teamwork and cooperation. It just doesn't make sense to me. I would have just played a single player game if I wanted to play alone. I'm not gonna pretend my interactions were all roses and rainbows either. I did say that I co-led an HNMLS. With that came drama with botters, other HNMs not respecting claim rules, balancing egos, more drama over drops...

I just realize that as typical, everyday ****. I probably ran into more of them than most people did simply because I put myself in the way(leading a few linkshells), but that's the nature of the beast. People are ******** in real life. People are ******** in game. I'm not lucky by any stretch. I just happened to be driven enough to seek out the ******** I got along with Smiley: sly

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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#93 Dec 06 2016 at 8:35 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I don't see any game where players come together being almost completely devoid of teamwork and cooperation. It just doesn't make sense to me. I would have just played a single player game if I wanted to play alone.


I don't know what that was supposed to be in response to because it's not what he posted, it isn't even what you quoted.

He's saying that you pretty much have to get in on the ground floor of an MMO to have a decent chance. While I don't necessarily agree 100% with that, I think it's pretty much right. The most recent FFXI example I can think of was when Delve was introduced and parties were demanding that everyone have a Delve weapon to do Delve with. Which was of course impossible without doing Delve. This was like a week or something after the system was released. And I've seen far more absurd examples than that in other games.
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#94 Dec 06 2016 at 10:35 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
And I've seen far more absurd examples than that in other games.


I remember the days in WoW...

"LFM for (insert item-level 459 or whatever raid here). Must have 480 item-level and achievements. PST!"

*sigh*

Yeah, okay, I'm supposed to somehow have the achievements and better item-level than the raid actually yields, before ever doing said raid. *rolls eyes*

See, people want an easy smooth road. They don't want challenge, they just want to speedrun the stuff for vanity equipment, and sc-rew the people who actually need the content.

And if you comment about this, said players will go "Get a raid guild."

Uh, yeah, okay... raid guilds want the best-geared people. I need gear. I can't get gear without a guild unless I do PUGs, but PUGs won't accept me because I haven't already cleared the content.

It's a vicious circle of "Only the first may pass" and whoever wasn't there, whoever didn't have 40+ hours a week to get through the content first, gets left in the dust and they have virtually no hope of ever getting anywhere until or unless some stroke of luck happens and they actually find someone who will take them. But, the chances are highly against them.

Edited, Dec 6th 2016 11:36pm by Lyrailis

Edited, Dec 6th 2016 11:37pm by Lyrailis
#95 Dec 07 2016 at 3:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
[quote]I don't see any game where players come together being almost completely devoid of teamwork and cooperation. It just doesn't make sense to me. I would have just played a single player game if I wanted to play alone.

The conclusion of what I posted was at the end of the paragraph...

Lyrailis wrote:
I have no idea who Lord Avesta is, but to be honest, a successful MMO needs both solo and group content.


FFXI is the highest grossing FF title to date. That was announced before Abyssea concluded and the game really started opening up to solo play. Based on that, it's pretty clear that a game doesn't need solo content to be successful. That is unless, Lyrailis has some special criteria for being successful.

You disagree?

Lyrailis wrote:
Yeah, okay, I'm supposed to somehow have the achievements and better item-level than the raid actually yields, before ever doing said raid. *rolls eyes*

Does it really come as a shock to you that experienced players would seek out other experienced players to group with? Real talk, if you spent your time trying to make or join a group of players with similar experience to you instead of rolling your eyes, you'd probably be more productive.

Hard to dignify responses so I'll go ahead and bow out here. Good luck with whatever game you play, but you should be more active. You'll have much better results.
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#96 Dec 07 2016 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
FFXI is the highest grossing FF title to date. That was announced before Abyssea concluded and the game really started opening up to solo play. Based on that, it's pretty clear that a game doesn't need solo content to be successful. That is unless, Lyrailis has some special criteria for being successful.


This bit of trivia never ceases to amuse me.

OF COURSE FFXI is the highest grossing FF title to date. It's a subscription based MMO. For years it had an average of about 300k players each paying 11-17ish dollars per month to play. How long do you think that has to happen before it grosses more money than a one-off title people pay 60 bucks for and then never pay for again? This has absolutely nothing to do with its success as an MMO. By most MMO metrics, FFXI was a cult hit and nothing more. Now there's nothing wrong with that, but to put those two things together to claim some mandate for how success in MMOs is achieved is a little silly.

MMOs need both solo and group content. That's what Lyrailis said and it's absolutely right.

Quote:
Does it really come as a shock to you that experienced players would seek out other experienced players to group with? Real talk, if you spent your time trying to make or join a group of players with similar experience to you instead of rolling your eyes, you'd probably be more productive.


I believe I talked above about how not everyone has the talent for putting groups together. You have it, that's great, it'll help you. But not everyone else does and it IS a talent. This isn't something everyone can reasonably learn to do.

Quote:
Hard to dignify responses so I'll go ahead and bow out here. Good luck with whatever game you play, but you should be more active. You'll have much better results.


Someone has a different perspective from you so you've decided to declare yourself superior and walk away? That was a seriously smug thing to say.
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#97 Dec 07 2016 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:


FFXI is the highest grossing FF title to date. That was announced before Abyssea concluded and the game really started opening up to solo play. Based on that, it's pretty clear that a game doesn't need solo content to be successful. That is unless, Lyrailis has some special criteria for being successful.

You disagree?


As Callinon said, obviously FFXI is the "highest grossing FF game to date" because it's a monthly sub game. Obviously.

As for its "Success", you only need to take a gander at some subscription charts. We're not comparing FFXI to other FF games ('cept maybe XIV), we're comparing FFXI to other MMOs. Here's a quick google stats I found for 2009-2011 (back when FFXI was still being actively developed and in its "prime"):

Quote:
World of Warcraft – 12,000,000 (2011)
Aion - 3,400,000 (mid 2010)
Runescape – 1,300,000 (2009)
Lineage – 750,000 (2009)
Lineage II – 750,000 (2009)
Dofus – 520,000 (mid 2010)
Final Fantasy XI – 350,000 (mid 2010)


You'll note FFXI is 7th on the list. Mildly successful, but nowhere near the top three. Now obviously these numbers aren't perfect but they should be in the ballpark, rough estimates.

Quote:
Does it really come as a shock to you that experienced players would seek out other experienced players to group with? Real talk, if you spent your time trying to make or join a group of players with similar experience to you instead of rolling your eyes, you'd probably be more productive.


No, but you need to understand something: After the initial release of content, the number of Experienced Players to Inexperienced Players skews drastically.

When a new raid is released, it might look something like this:

(Inexperienced:Experienced players interested in doing the content, where "Experienced" are people who have fully cleared the content at least once)

At the beginning: 100:0
A week later: 70:30
A month later: 50:50
2 months later: 20:80
6+ months later: 10:90+

So basically, if you're at the beginning, then EVERYBODY is inexperienced with the new content. A week later, you've got several groups who've made clears, and a month later is when you see the "must have achieves!" shouts.

The problem with this, is if you just arrived later-on, you have nil chance of finding enough inexperienced players to fill out a whole group capable of doing the content, and as such you will need experienced players to fill slots.

Quote:
Hard to dignify responses so I'll go ahead and bow out here. Good luck with whatever game you play, but you should be more active. You'll have much better results.


Dunno where the salt is coming from to be honest... but I didn't expect you to understand, most of the people I've talked to/with who have the raiding guilds and linkshells never understand, and have never understood our point-of-view. You're one of the very many who just fail to understand the problem with MMOs and wide-spread elitism.
#98 Dec 07 2016 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
Someone has a different perspective from you so you've decided to declare yourself superior and walk away? That was a seriously smug thing to say.

I'm walking away because he can't grasp a concept that has been around since long before MMOs were even a thing. Also, because now he's pulling numbers out of his *** to try and support his point.

Lyrailis if you want to try and use numbers to support your cause, you're better off going to a site like wowprogress and finding actual data. Try doing that instead. Just a warning though, you're not even remotely close with what you posted above.

Good luck!





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30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#99 Dec 07 2016 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Lyrailis if you want to try and use numbers to support your cause, you're better off going to a site like wowprogress and finding actual data. Try doing that instead. Just a warning though, you're not even remotely close with what you posted above.


What numbers are YOU using to determine that he's wrong?

In any event I think it was more an illustration rather than a statement of hard data. Over time the number of people who both want to do a particular piece of content and have not yet done that particular piece of content goes way WAY down, and it does so very quickly.

Obviously I don't have hard data on this either so I can only speak from my own experience, but even right now trying to get (for example) A5-9 done.. normal mode.. so I can move on, is totally impossible. Nobody wants to do it. I don't blame them for not wanting to do outdated content that has nothing for them, but it gates me and that's a problem. I had this same problem back in 2.x when I was interested in joining the parties looking to learn T10-13 but I hadn't cleared T9 and nobody wanted to touch that thing with someone who'd never been there. This happens over and over again and it's a problem. If I'd been there when the content was new, I'd have no issue, but I wasn't...
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#100 Dec 07 2016 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
I had this same problem back in 2.x when I was interested in joining the parties looking to learn T10-13 but I hadn't cleared T9 and nobody wanted to touch that thing with someone who'd never been there. This happens over and over again and it's a problem. If I'd been there when the content was new, I'd have no issue, but I wasn't...


It's a problem that exacerbates itself:

If you're stuck on T9 and everybody's doing T10-13, while you wait on a stroke of good luck, the NEXT Tier comes out, and then T10 becomes obsolete while you're still waiting to do T9.

Then, you finally get T9 done, and oh wait.... now T10 is obsolete and you're running into another roadblock and you just can't catch up. The people at current tier are mowing the tiers down just fine, but you hit roadblock after roadblock after roadblock.

In WoW, the only remedy to this is to "wait until next expansion" because you can usually skip to the next expansion's first tier easily enough... but if you fall behind too far, you're sunk.

Again.

Until next expansion.....

Can't believe the devs can't SEE the problem with this kind of problem with people getting left behind because nobody wants to do outdated tiers of content to help the late-comers through.
#101 Dec 08 2016 at 6:30 AM Rating: Good
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It always seems like anyone who can't understand the concept that the older multiplayer content gets, the harder it is to do (as intended), were probably among the early clears or soon after. Some of this is due to lockouts if they exist. Some of it is due to costs if you need consumables. Some of it could be the content just wasn't fun (to do for the nth time). And if it's old enough, it's probably not worth doing because the rewards are no longer pertinent. As this issue pops up time and time again across MMOs throughout the world, sometimes devs try to address it, but other times not at all.

When it comes to XI, me harping on CoP probably seems like old hat to some, but the level caps were a hurdle that exemplified the issue of content aging decreasing accessibility. Once one finished a mission, the only real reason to backtrack was out of the goodness of their heart. And a lot of the time, doing so was urged to be a less a hassle as possible with aggro avoidance taking priority because 99.99% of mobs in the way of an objective were a waste. One might even argue SE forced mob engagement by sprinking so many true sight/sound mobs out there. It wasn't about making the world dangerous, it was just trying to artificially slow players down.

Otherwise, it's pretty dumb to assert that everyone should play the same way or else they're fundamentally looking at the genre wrong. Solo play is important to MMOs no matter how much the haters reject the sentiment. Matchmaking tools for when it isn't quite an option are just as important, which XI horribly lacked. So, yeah, for all people were "forced" to interact, it had a dark side those who merrily did get whatever done perhaps didn't notice. Further, I know I at least had a vast majority of groups being more about advancement, and if that wasn't be achieved, GTFO. Socializing wasn't at the core of that, and sometimes even discouraged through inaction or implied conformity.
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