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Correct me if Im wrong (past and present relic weapon)Follow

#1 Jan 19 2017 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
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The relic quest we have gotten in patch 3.5 is the final anime upgrade and thus no more new relic until 4.0 right?

If so then was it not the case that when the final upgrade for Zenith weapon in 2.0 came out its Item level was higher than the (then) current most powerful raid weapon?


Ok but now this time around the final anima upgrade is not only not more powerful than the current alexander savage raid weapon, but they didnt even make the item level the SAME? (also I notice the augment shire bow stats are perfect for a il270 bard weapon, to the point where most anyone would just duplicate its states on the new bard weapon which leads you to Ask... why bother with that anime upgrade when you can just get a shire longbow and augment it in no time?
#2 Jan 19 2017 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The relic quest we have gotten in patch 3.5 is the final anime upgrade and thus no more new relic until 4.0 right?


There'll probably be one last step in 3.55 to round out the anima weapon. Similar to the zeta step from 2.55.

Quote:
why bother with that anime upgrade when you can just get a shire longbow and augment it in no time?


7 weeks is now "no time" apparently.

But what you seem to be implying here is that SE gives a crap about optimal secondary stats. Given the itemization I've seen in the past, I doubt very seriously that's the case.
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#3 Jan 19 2017 at 9:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
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The relic quest we have gotten in patch 3.5 is the final anime upgrade and thus no more new relic until 4.0 right?


There'll probably be one last step in 3.55 to round out the anima weapon. Similar to the zeta step from 2.55.

Quote:
why bother with that anime upgrade when you can just get a shire longbow and augment it in no time?


7 weeks is now "no time" apparently.

But what you seem to be implying here is that SE gives a crap about optimal secondary stats. Given the itemization I've seen in the past, I doubt very seriously that's the case.



Umm it takes 7 weeks to get the tomes for a shire weapon then to get the mhachi items from the 3 void ark related raids to buy the dip needed to enhance said weapon?


And what does whether or not SE cares about optimal secondary stats have to do with anything?
#4 Jan 19 2017 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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Umm it takes 7 weeks to get the tomes for a shire weapon then to get the mhachi items from the 3 void ark related raids to buy the dip needed to enhance said weapon?


It takes 7 weeks to get the Alexandrian Gears necessary obtain the micro tomestone. Unless you're clearing savage creator, that's your only road.

And actually I'm not sure if you can buy the Illuminati Deepest Gobdip to upgrade a shire weapon. I know you can get the twine and coat, but I don't think the dip is actually available for purchase (could easily be wrong about that).

Quote:
And what does whether or not SE cares about optimal secondary stats have to do with anything?


You were complaining that the shire bow had optimal stats on it (weird complaint) and that people would just duplicate them for the anima bow as though this were some weird plot by SE to make your anima bow a waste of time.
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#5 Jan 19 2017 at 11:54 PM Rating: Good
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as far as i know, weapon upgrade item is only available in savage. Can only group armor/accessories with 24 man raid items.

If you don't want to do the relic, then don't do it. No one says you have to. Different paths to get a weapon. Personally, I do it so I have relic on my main and a shire weapon on my 2nd class.
#6 Jan 20 2017 at 8:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
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Umm it takes 7 weeks to get the tomes for a shire weapon then to get the mhachi items from the 3 void ark related raids to buy the dip needed to enhance said weapon?


It takes 7 weeks to get the Alexandrian Gears necessary obtain the micro tomestone. Unless you're clearing savage creator, that's your only road.

And actually I'm not sure if you can buy the Illuminati Deepest Gobdip to upgrade a shire weapon. I know you can get the twine and coat, but I don't think the dip is actually available for purchase (could easily be wrong about that).

Quote:
And what does whether or not SE cares about optimal secondary stats have to do with anything?


You were complaining that the shire bow had optimal stats on it (weird complaint) and that people would just duplicate them for the anima bow as though this were some weird plot by SE to make your anima bow a waste of time.


The "complaint" is the fact that you take all that tim to do teh reli weapon only for its optimal stats to be exactly the same as a tomestone weapon whos upgrade parts are now easier t get. Now if you ARE right an the upgrade item can only still be gotten in Savage THEN I retract my complain as relic would be much easier (although a longer process) to obtain hen the augmented Shire Bow
#7 Jan 20 2017 at 8:28 AM Rating: Excellent
I play the game anyway, so the relic isnt really extra work.
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#8 Jan 20 2017 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
I play the game anyway, so the relic isnt really extra work.


It is extra work IF youre doing it to get a weapon equal to or more powerful that the current most powerful weapon. Because the content to get said weapon is too hard for you (or you cant get groups to even TRY said content to find out if its too hard for you). Only for the weapon in said content gets much easier and faster to obtain before you even complete the relic.


tl;dr if the final upgrade of the relic is equal to or more powerful than the current strongest weapon and its upgrade comes first then its NOT extra work. If alex savage weapon difficulty to get gets nerfed or becomes MUCH faster or easier to get (i.e purchase items can be gotten from 24 man raid), BEFORE final relic upgrade is available THEN doing the relic is/was extra work.

As you could just waited til savage weapon attainability (or tome upgrade item attainability) got nerfed/easier than taken 30 mins to get that instead of spending the 10+ hours total you spent on making the relic weapon from start to finish
#9 Jan 20 2017 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly, a 3.x relic weapon is far more of a grind and work than a savage weapon, ESPECIALLY Creator Cycle when you really sit down and think about it lol.

Also yes, 3.55 will have an upgrade phase along with being able to upgrade Shire weapons since it's supposed to be the weapons you go into the next expansion with (that will be obsoleted by a store vendor.) It's also when they'll finally nerf steps appropriately.
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#10 Jan 20 2017 at 10:03 AM Rating: Good
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Honestly, a 3.x relic weapon is far more of a grind and work than a savage weapon, ESPECIALLY Creator Cycle when you really sit down and think about it lol.


Unless you don't have the time, group, or ability to do savage content.

Quote:
Also yes, 3.55 will have an upgrade phase along with being able to upgrade Shire weapons since it's supposed to be the weapons you go into the next expansion with (that will be obsoleted by a store vendor.)


I hung onto my zeta weapon until like level 58 or something like that. Including the progression I did with it at the end of the 2.x cycle, I'd say it put in fine service.

Quote:
tl;dr if the final upgrade of the relic is equal to or more powerful than the current strongest weapon and its upgrade comes first then its NOT extra work. If alex savage weapon difficulty to get gets nerfed or becomes MUCH faster or easier to get (i.e purchase items can be gotten from 24 man raid), BEFORE final relic upgrade is available THEN doing the relic is/was extra work.

As you could just waited til savage weapon attainability (or tome upgrade item attainability) got nerfed/easier than taken 30 mins to get that instead of spending the 10+ hours total you spent on making the relic weapon from start to finish


Ok but then why are you playing the game at the launch of an expansion when there's going to be a new tier of gear 6 months later? And then another one 6 months after that? If your only goal is to have the best items available, then you're better off not even purchasing an expansion until the final patch is released so you're not "wasting your time" on the lower tiers of content.
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#11 Jan 20 2017 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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thats easy because tha new tier of gear is easily gotten (just buy em with tomes) and theyre the best gear you can get (aside from raid gear) with litle to no effort... then next patch you just do it again.. sure you wont hav ethe BEST gear (as i said raid savage gear is gonna be better). but you took little to no effort to get it so its all good, unlike Relic which takes a LOT more effort to get for what you get out of it.


It would be like all the work it took to get a Dynamis weapon full upgraded in FFXI during the lvl 75 cap, only to be outclassed by something Kirin or even Absolute Virtue or Pandemoium Warden Dropped.... Sure those fights are hard but they can be don in 30 mins whereas Dynamis (like relic in FFXIV) takes hours upon hours, so it should be on par with if not better than the weapon you get in a 30 minute fight even IF that 30 minute fight is hard as ****. I mean sure it took forever to get a Dynamis weapon but when you got it it was top tier and stayed in your hand for YEARS it wasnt outclassed in 3-6 months when the new patch came out.

Thats why I dont wait for the last patch, to get armor.. because each piece that can be gotten in 30 mins (alaexander normal) or after running a dungeon 5 times (2 1/2 hours) to get enough tomes, Im not upgrading a full relic or even finishing ANY ONE of its steps in that time limit so the reward should be worth the time used.
#12 Jan 20 2017 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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It would be like all the work it took to get a Dynamis weapon full upgraded in FFXI during the lvl 75 cap, only to be outclassed by something Kirin or even Absolute Virtue or Pandemoium Warden Dropped.... Sure those fights are hard but they can be don in 30 mins whereas Dynamis (like relic in FFXIV) takes hours upon hours, so it should be on par with if not better than the weapon you get in a 30 minute fight even IF that 30 minute fight is hard as ****. I mean sure it took forever to get a Dynamis weapon but when you got it it was top tier and stayed in your hand for YEARS it wasnt outclassed in 3-6 months when the new patch came out.


Apples to oranges comparison here. FFXI is (or at least was) not a vertical game.

Quote:
Thats why I dont wait for the last patch, to get armor.. because each piece that can be gotten in 30 mins (alaexander normal) or after running a dungeon 5 times (2 1/2 hours) to get enough tomes, Im not upgrading a full relic or even finishing ANY ONE of its steps in that time limit so the reward should be worth the time used.


The relic system is supposed to be an alternative to savage raiding. Requiring a commensurate input of time as opposed to group organization and player skill. None of the relic steps are individually all that hard to do, just super grindy because time is being substituted for raiding. I don't know that they necessarily hit the mark on the HW relic, but that was their stated goal with the system.
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#13 Jan 20 2017 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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ok alternative to savage raiding would mean i should get a weapon thats equal in IL to savage weapon not a weapon thats 5-10 ILs behind
#14 Jan 20 2017 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
ok alternative to savage raiding would mean i should get a weapon thats equal in IL to savage weapon not a weapon thats 5-10 ILs behind


A: Why should it mean that?
B: I assume you will by the end. The zeta weapon was equivalent to T13 weapons in item level.
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#15 Jan 21 2017 at 12:00 PM Rating: Excellent
Don't have the time or group for savage raiding. Thankful for the relic!
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#16 Jan 21 2017 at 12:00 PM Rating: Excellent
Don't have the time or group for savage raiding. Thankful for the relic!
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#17 Jan 21 2017 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Don't have the time or group for savage raiding. Thankful for the relic!


Granted I only raid with my FC on my Balmung alt, but I could have sworn Raid Finder was a thing on NA/EU Datacenter as well, unless Yoshida stating it SIGNIFICANTLY boosted clear rates was a jape.

Since yeah, SE's done quite a lot of steps to kill the whole "need a static" that's prevelent in a portion of the playerbase, including making Creator Savage the easiest high tier raid comparatively speaking.

Edited, Jan 21st 2017 2:49pm by Theonehio
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#18 Jan 21 2017 at 8:53 PM Rating: Good
Theonehio wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Don't have the time or group for savage raiding. Thankful for the relic!


Granted I only raid with my FC on my Balmung alt, but I could have sworn Raid Finder was a thing on NA/EU Datacenter as well, unless Yoshida stating it SIGNIFICANTLY boosted clear rates was a jape.

Since yeah, SE's done quite a lot of steps to kill the whole "need a static" that's prevelent in a portion of the playerbase, including making Creator Savage the easiest high tier raid comparatively speaking.

Edited, Jan 21st 2017 2:49pm by Theonehio


Now, this was from November, but am I reading this right? Balmung has a 0.33% clear rate on savage?

http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/luckybancho/imgs/2/b/2b12f947.png

Short of those top 3 Japanese servers, it's still abysmal. Raid finder or not, my guess is you're wasting a TON of time. You really should stream it sometime. Raid Finder on Balmung and that way we'd see how things go!
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#19 Jan 21 2017 at 9:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Balmung is pretty much the Moonguard of XIV so that's no surprise

Edited, Jan 21st 2017 10:53pm by BrokenFox
#20 Jan 22 2017 at 12:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Granted I only raid with my FC on my Balmung alt, but I could have sworn Raid Finder was a thing on NA/EU Datacenter as well, unless Yoshida stating it SIGNIFICANTLY boosted clear rates was a jape.


I love how when Yoshi's words can be shown as favoring your argument, he's telling the truth!

Any other time, he's a liar!

But no, the almighty Yoshi has yet to solve the problem of actually creating more time in my schedule and making my life more predictable.
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#21 Jan 23 2017 at 12:01 AM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Don't have the time or group for savage raiding. Thankful for the relic!


Granted I only raid with my FC on my Balmung alt, but I could have sworn Raid Finder was a thing on NA/EU Datacenter as well, unless Yoshida stating it SIGNIFICANTLY boosted clear rates was a jape.

Since yeah, SE's done quite a lot of steps to kill the whole "need a static" that's prevelent in a portion of the playerbase, including making Creator Savage the easiest high tier raid comparatively speaking.

Edited, Jan 21st 2017 2:49pm by Theonehio


In my experience, raidfinder is a thing for ex primals, but not so much for savage. I cleared sophia ex through raidfinder, working on the new primal through raid finder as well. I tried A9S a few times in raidfinder, queue never popped. I'm hoping cross server party finder will help with that.
#22 Feb 18 2017 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
ok alternative to savage raiding would mean i should get a weapon thats equal in IL to savage weapon not a weapon thats 5-10 ILs behind


A: Why should it mean that?
B: I assume you will by the end. The zeta weapon was equivalent to T13 weapons in item level.



Because thats exactly what Alternative means..


I could go get a box of cereal from Walmart or alternatively I can go get one from Kroger. Im still getting the exact same thing.. just two alternative ways to ge them.. Walmart or Kroger
#23 Feb 18 2017 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Callinon wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
ok alternative to savage raiding would mean i should get a weapon thats equal in IL to savage weapon not a weapon thats 5-10 ILs behind


A: Why should it mean that?
B: I assume you will by the end. The zeta weapon was equivalent to T13 weapons in item level.



Because thats exactly what Alternative means..


I could go get a box of cereal from Walmart or alternatively I can go get one from Kroger. Im still getting the exact same thing.. just two alternative ways to ge them.. Walmart or Kroger


Wow that's not the same thing at all. Your analogy would be fine if the weapons were identical and there were simply two different paths to obtaining them. But they're not identical.
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#24 Feb 18 2017 at 10:06 AM Rating: Default
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The problem is, while you're not wrong this is FFXIV - The setup for this game is atrocious so an "alternative" to say a savage weapon at this point in the game's life would mean "Why do the content where you have to push more than 123 when you can get the same if not a better weapon doing far less work?" There would be no reason to touch content that doesn't hand out gear.

With the Zodiac weapons, the amount of work was actually a bit more than just taking your **** into Coil and clearing T5/T9/T13, so that weapon was well deserved to be an alternate you can customize - in 3.x however, the ilvls are quite different and they jump a lot higher, so handing out a 275 alternate would negate creator savage, which yeah would make people who don't touch content happy, but for people who spend more than 3 hours a week on this game you take away one of the few goals this game has, which seems to be ok to take away from other's playstyle but isn't ok if it takes away from your playstyle.

So an alternate weapon can never be equal to a high end weapon unless they SIGNIFICANTLY change the itemization so you can make both well worth your time.

So you do indeed have your alt weapon, you just have to deal with being behind the top weapon because realistically, unless you plan to do harder content in this game you don't need anywhere near the current gear, you realistically only need ilvl245 gear (new dungeons) and ilvl255 weapon at best.
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#25 Feb 18 2017 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Callinon wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
ok alternative to savage raiding would mean i should get a weapon thats equal in IL to savage weapon not a weapon thats 5-10 ILs behind


A: Why should it mean that?
B: I assume you will by the end. The zeta weapon was equivalent to T13 weapons in item level.



Because thats exactly what Alternative means..


I could go get a box of cereal from Walmart or alternatively I can go get one from Kroger. Im still getting the exact same thing.. just two alternative ways to ge them.. Walmart or Kroger


Wow that's not the same thing at all. Your analogy would be fine if the weapons were identical and there were simply two different paths to obtaining them. But they're not identical.



and thats the ENTIRE argument they SHOULD be identical in IL... the only difference between the two should be their names and looks.. Id also say stats but considering relics stats are customisible anyway so you could always customize them to match Savage stats if you so choose. I cant really call relic an "alternative" to Savage if Savage is still gonna be better than relic for the first 12-24 months until relic FINALLY catches up to match or exceed it.

There should be ways for ppl to get weapons as strong as (not weaker than) Savage weapons on their own that would take a little more work but can be done solo for ppl who CANT get in a Savage party because the community sucks and wont allow them.. not because of their lack of wanting to
#26 Feb 18 2017 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
and thats the ENTIRE argument they SHOULD be identical in IL... the only difference between the two should be their names and looks.. Id also say stats but considering relics stats are customisible anyway so you could always customize them to match Savage stats if you so choose. I cant really call relic an "alternative" to Savage if Savage is still gonna be better than relic for the first 12-24 months until relic FINALLY catches up to match or exceed it.

There should be ways for ppl to get weapons as strong as (not weaker than) Savage weapons on their own that would take a little more work but can be done solo for ppl who CANT get in a Savage party because the community sucks and wont allow them.. not because of their lack of wanting to


I think a much better analogy here would be the difference between going to participate in a game of skill and winning your cereal versus manufacturing it yourself from scratch.

The game of skill, if you're good enough to do it, awards you completed cereal at a high quality.
OR
You can manufacture the individual components of cereal yourself on your own time. It'll take longer, and you'll take a good deal more time to achieve the same quality of cereal, but in the end you can make it exactly the way you want.
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#27 Feb 18 2017 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
The problem is, while you're not wrong this is FFXIV - The setup for this game is atrocious so an "alternative" to say a savage weapon at this point in the game's life would mean "Why do the content where you have to push more than 123 when you can get the same if not a better weapon doing far less work?" There would be no reason to touch content that doesn't hand out gear.

With the Zodiac weapons, the amount of work was actually a bit more than just taking your **** into Coil and clearing T5/T9/T13, so that weapon was well deserved to be an alternate you can customize - in 3.x however, the ilvls are quite different and they jump a lot higher, so handing out a 275 alternate would negate creator savage, which yeah would make people who don't touch content happy, but for people who spend more than 3 hours a week on this game you take away one of the few goals this game has, which seems to be ok to take away from other's playstyle but isn't ok if it takes away from your playstyle.

So an alternate weapon can never be equal to a high end weapon unless they SIGNIFICANTLY change the itemization so you can make both well worth your time.

So you do indeed have your alt weapon, you just have to deal with being behind the top weapon because realistically, unless you plan to do harder content in this game you don't need anywhere near the current gear, you realistically only need ilvl245 gear (new dungeons) and ilvl255 weapon at best.



Thats a VERY simple question to answer. It would not at all make doing Creator Savage pointless.? Why because the "uber l33t" hardcore players can get their "uber L33t" weapons in a matter of hours so theyd STILL choose to do that over getting an equally powerful relic whereas us "peasants" who cant get into a Savage part because of all the red tape (i.e Must have experience, must have clear, know fight, No bonus" etc etc groups you see in party finder.. Trust me I would MUCH rather do Savage but thats not an option as because of this games community ppl like me wouldn't even get a chance to TRY..... something player in FFXI NEVER had to face). Could spend 50+ hours solo and still get the same power of weapon.

So tl;dr Hard core players can spend 3-5 hours and get an IL9000 Whereas casuals could spend 50-100 hour solo and get an IL9000 weapon. Thus Creator Savage would still be worth doing (for those who are able) over just getting relic because of the amount of time it would take would be SIGNIFICANTLY shorter.
#28 Feb 18 2017 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
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and thats the ENTIRE argument they SHOULD be identical in IL... the only difference between the two should be their names and looks.. Id also say stats but considering relics stats are customisible anyway so you could always customize them to match Savage stats if you so choose. I cant really call relic an "alternative" to Savage if Savage is still gonna be better than relic for the first 12-24 months until relic FINALLY catches up to match or exceed it.

There should be ways for ppl to get weapons as strong as (not weaker than) Savage weapons on their own that would take a little more work but can be done solo for ppl who CANT get in a Savage party because the community sucks and wont allow them.. not because of their lack of wanting to


I think a much better analogy here would be the difference between going to participate in a game of skill and winning your cereal versus manufacturing it yourself from scratch.

The game of skill, if you're good enough to do it, awards you completed cereal at a high quality.
OR
You can manufacture the individual components of cereal yourself on your own time. It'll take longer, and you'll take a good deal more time to achieve the same quality of cereal, but in the end you can make it exactly the way you want.


The only thing wrong with that example is that the cereal you manufactured is NOT the same quality until 12-24 months later. SO the "other kids" have been eating the good stuff for 1-2 years longer than you. Despite the fact that your method required a LOT more time and effort to do than the other guys
#29 Feb 18 2017 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
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You wrote:
The only thing wrong with that example is that the cereal you manufactured is NOT the same quality until 12-24 months later.

I wrote:
and you'll take a good deal more time to achieve the same quality of cereal


Edited, Feb 18th 2017 11:04am by Callinon
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#30 Feb 18 2017 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
You wrote:
The only thing wrong with that example is that the cereal you manufactured is NOT the same quality until 12-24 months later.

I wrote:
and you'll take a good deal more time to achieve the same quality of cereal


Edited, Feb 18th 2017 11:04am by Callinon


The point I was making is every expansion has multiple Savage trials not just one. or example 3 tiers of Bahamut on ARR.. Relic Never matched the first tier of of Bahamut until the 2nd tier was out. then never matched the 2nd tier until the 3rd tier was out, then never matched 3rd tier until 3rd tier was 3+ months old. So relic really inst the "same quality" until it finally catches up to 3rd tier.

The CORRECT way to make relic the same quality alternative to Bahamut (for example) would be like this.... Tier 2 Bahamut isnt out yet. Good players can get a Bahamut Tier 1 weapon in just a few hours if they get lucky on drops. Whereas relic players can get a weapon the same quality as Bahamut tier 1 (BEFORE TIER 2 comes out) without the necessary skill.... the balance point however is.. While the good players can get a great weapon with only a few hours of work everyone else can get a weapon of equal power but their gonna have to grind for a full 1-2 months to get it. Not grind 1-2 months for a weapon thats only "almost as good" as Tier 1 Bahamut... if thats all youre gonna give me then just scrap the whole Relic progression system and just lemme buy my inferior weapon with Tomestones... at least then I cant dispute the quality of the weapon I got for the work I had to put in to get it.


#31 Feb 18 2017 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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I think they found a good balance here allowing casual players to work on a long-term project that eventually catches up with the top-end weapons while also allowing the top-end players the chance to have better weapons through most of that process (because what they're doing is more difficult). I understand that you don't agree. My point was trying to help you understand how this is supposed to work and why.

I have my own complaints with the relic system, but none of them are "my weapon isn't as good as the top-end raid weapons." It shouldn't be. I'm not a top-end raider in this game. The fact I can finally get there at the end of the expansion is a nice bonus for sticking with it the whole way through.
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#32 Feb 18 2017 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
I think they found a good balance here allowing casual players to work on a long-term project that eventually catches up with the top-end weapons while also allowing the top-end players the chance to have better weapons through most of that process (because what they're doing is more difficult). I understand that you don't agree. My point was trying to help you understand how this is supposed to work and why.

I have my own complaints with the relic system, but none of them are "my weapon isn't as good as the top-end raid weapons." It shouldn't be. I'm not a top-end raider in this game. The fact I can finally get there at the end of the expansion is a nice bonus for sticking with it the whole way through.


Well if anyone is to blame it would be FFXI and how THEY did relics, relic was a LONG grinding process.. that EVERYONE would get.. skilled or otherwise... they just had to take the time and have the dedication to do it. But it wasn't out of reach for ANYONE at all (unlike Savage) and at the end you got a kickass weapon. As such we expect that same thing for the long relic like work we have to do for relic in FFXIV just to get a weapon thats not as good as what we could get off Kirin which might be "harder to do" but takes a million times less time to accomplish
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