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#1 Feb 18 2017 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Ilk finally have a reason to retire my bow for good... since SaM and thief/rogue/assassins are the only class a like to play in MMOs and XIV never got a traditional thief like class (Rogue was just a Rogue in name... nothing thief like about it)... I just ray that there snot a million positional attacks with SAM making it more complicated to play than it has to be, mnk, drk and nin have more than enough... I prefer my DPS jobs to be like brd.. just stay in one sot (unless you have to dodge) and only worry about using the right skills in the right order (rotation) to deal as much damage as possible.
#2 Feb 18 2017 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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I just ray that there snot a million positional attacks with SAM making it more complicated to play than it has to be, mnk, drk and nin have more than enough...


Did you mean DRG in there?

Really MNK is the only job right now that overloads on positionals. DRG and NIN have like 3 abilities each that require a specific position.

I do expect SAM to be heavy on positionals. Honestly if you're looking for a "stand and deliver" job, you're probably better off playing BRD or BLM.
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#3 Feb 18 2017 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
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I just ray that there snot a million positional attacks with SAM making it more complicated to play than it has to be, mnk, drk and nin have more than enough...


Did you mean DRG in there?

Really MNK is the only job right now that overloads on positionals. DRG and NIN have like 3 abilities each that require a specific position.

I do expect SAM to be heavy on positionals. Honestly if you're looking for a "stand and deliver" job, you're probably better off playing BRD or BLM.


Im already a bard and have been for 3 years.. its just not my proffered choice


and yea i mean drg not drk lol
#4 Feb 18 2017 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Can certainly say brd isn't a turret, least not in the content I do since like MCH you have to stance dance to maintain DPS (one mch roation relies on it) - From what they stated in the keynote Samurai is a reskinned Ninja with MNK's chakra system thrown in, which will actually minimize positionals.
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#5 Feb 18 2017 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm psyched for it and I'll try it out obviously, but without knowing how it plays and feels I can't say if I'll make it one of my main jobs. I was really excited for DRK and MCH too and I ended up not really caring for how they played. So, we'll see.
#6 Feb 18 2017 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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Eh. I get why SAM is so popular and exciting for many people but its never really been my thing. Even back in the XI days I never really liked it that much.

Also, I'm annoyed that there's still no physical pet job. Give me beast or puppetmaster already! It's insane that I'm forced to play arcanist if I want a pet.
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#7 Feb 18 2017 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Karlina wrote:
Eh. I get why SAM is so popular and exciting for many people but its never really been my thing. Even back in the XI days I never really liked it that much.

Also, I'm annoyed that there's still no physical pet job. Give me beast or puppetmaster already! It's insane that I'm forced to play arcanist if I want a pet.


Why theyd just ruin it anyway.. I mean if they did give us BST it would be NOTHING like FFXIs... I mean lets say you can charm pets in the open world.. what good would that do considering ho little open world content there is.. and even if there was you can kill the stuff in the open world by yourself so easily a pet would be pointless... if you say FATEs.. well theres so many other ppl spamming those a pet would also be pointless. As far as dungeons go.. I seriously doubt theyd let you charm the mobs in a dungeon that are already 3 times stronger than you despite being the same level.. that would make the dungeons even easier than they already are.... soooo yeh
#8 Feb 18 2017 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
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Obviously BST in XIV wouldn't be the same as BST in XI. No one would ever expect that. More likely you'd have a selection of permanent pets to choose from, like SMN. That's not so unreasonable.
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#9 Feb 18 2017 at 6:08 PM Rating: Good
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No one would ever expect that.


Smiley: dubious

Really?
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#10 Feb 18 2017 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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Let me rephrase that:
No one with a functional brain would ever expect that.

I know that discounts a lot of people, but I usually ignore those people anyway.

Edited, Feb 18th 2017 6:52pm by Karlina
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#11 Feb 18 2017 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
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I will probably level one new job in the 4.0 expansion, and that probably will be Samurai (never keen on Red Mage). However, I will wait till the crazy everyone-levelling DPS craze to cool off a bit first.

If anything, I am looking forward to UI changes that make it more controller friendly as. I play on PS4, and it is not easy to navigate through different controller pallet.
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#12 Feb 18 2017 at 8:33 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
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No one would ever expect that.


Smiley: dubious

Really?


I think some FFXI jobs is much easier to implement in FFXIV than other jobs. I would think BST be one of harder ones. I just couldn't see charming could work easily or efficiently in FFXIV especially in dungeons, but there is some hope that jug pets can work (but it may be hard to make different enough from Summoner). For similar reason, I am not optimist that Blue Mage can be added to FFXIV easily with the way how game engine and interface work now; they will be just too many buttons to cast for too many blue spells, and that may not be workable with console controller players.

In some ways, Samurai is easy to implement. For disappointed Dancer and Geomancer fans, I think chances to see DNC and GEO to get implemented eventually are high because, like Samurai, are quite compatible with the current engine and interface. If anything, I am bit worried how Red Mage will be. Being a RDM fan is one thing, but you get to think from the perspective in how to get it to work without making Red Mage too close to how Black Mage is played right now.

FFXI is a very macro-based game, and its success is heavily relied on job flexibility and programmable use of skills and spells. This is something FFXIV lacks, and FFXIV relies on straightforward use and command in smaller number of abilities. Any jobs that require high degree of customisation are not easy to implement in FFXIV.

Edited, Feb 18th 2017 9:37pm by scchan
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#13 Feb 18 2017 at 8:44 PM Rating: Decent
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BST in FF14 would just be a crappy melee with a pet or a crappy ranged user with a pet. Until this dev team starts thinking a bit more outside the box you won't see the more unorthodox jobs showing up.

Edited, Feb 18th 2017 9:47pm by BrokenFox
#14 Feb 18 2017 at 8:55 PM Rating: Good
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I think some FFXI jobs is much easier to implement in FFXIV than other jobs. I would think BST be one of harder ones. I just couldn't see charming could work easily or efficiently in FFXIV especially in dungeons, but there is some hope that jug pets can work (but it may be hard to make different enough from Summoner). For similar reason, I am not optimist that Blue Mage can be added to FFXIV easily with the way how game engine and interface work now; they will be just too many buttons to cast for too many blue spells, and that may not be workable with console controller players.


I agree. I think BST would feel like a melee SMN and I can't think of any way to implement BLU in FFXIV's system without it being monstrously disappointing.

Quote:
In some ways, Samurai is easy to implement. For disappointed Dancer and Geomancer fans, I think chances to see DNC and GEO to get implemented eventually are high because, like Samurai, are quite compatible with the current engine and interface. If anything, I am bit worried how Red Mage will be. Being a RDM fan is one thing, but you get to think from the perspective in how to get it to work without making Red Mage too close to how Black Mage is played right now.


BLM is a super turret. It isn't too difficult to imagine a hybrid caster/melee job that's far more mobile but still relies heavily on casting spells, which basically seems like what they're doing with it. As for DNC and GEO, I don't think you'll see those until they embrace the idea of a "support" role that isn't necessarily a healer. Maybe you could get away with DNC being a dps in the same vein that BRD is where it's primarily a dps but has some supporty functions. But GEO without just being other-BLM? I doubt it.

Quote:
FFXI is a very macro-based game, and its success is heavily relied on job flexibility and programmable use of skills and spells. This is something FFXIV lacks, and FFXIV relies on straightforward use and command in smaller number of abilities. Any jobs that require high degree of customisation are not easy to implement in FFXIV.


To be fair here, the reason FFXI needs to lean on macros like it does is because of gear swapping. Without gear swapping, you could easily run FFXI on a hotbar system with no problems.
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#15 Feb 18 2017 at 9:19 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
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I think some FFXI jobs is much easier to implement in FFXIV than other jobs. I would think BST be one of harder ones. I just couldn't see charming could work easily or efficiently in FFXIV especially in dungeons, but there is some hope that jug pets can work (but it may be hard to make different enough from Summoner). For similar reason, I am not optimist that Blue Mage can be added to FFXIV easily with the way how game engine and interface work now; they will be just too many buttons to cast for too many blue spells, and that may not be workable with console controller players.


I agree. I think BST would feel like a melee SMN and I can't think of any way to implement BLU in FFXIV's system without it being monstrously disappointing.

Quote:
In some ways, Samurai is easy to implement. For disappointed Dancer and Geomancer fans, I think chances to see DNC and GEO to get implemented eventually are high because, like Samurai, are quite compatible with the current engine and interface. If anything, I am bit worried how Red Mage will be. Being a RDM fan is one thing, but you get to think from the perspective in how to get it to work without making Red Mage too close to how Black Mage is played right now.


BLM is a super turret. It isn't too difficult to imagine a hybrid caster/melee job that's far more mobile but still relies heavily on casting spells, which basically seems like what they're doing with it. As for DNC and GEO, I don't think you'll see those until they embrace the idea of a "support" role that isn't necessarily a healer. Maybe you could get away with DNC being a dps in the same vein that BRD is where it's primarily a dps but has some supporty functions. But GEO without just being other-BLM? I doubt it.

Quote:
FFXI is a very macro-based game, and its success is heavily relied on job flexibility and programmable use of skills and spells. This is something FFXIV lacks, and FFXIV relies on straightforward use and command in smaller number of abilities. Any jobs that require high degree of customisation are not easy to implement in FFXIV.


To be fair here, the reason FFXI needs to lean on macros like it does is because of gear swapping. Without gear swapping, you could easily run FFXI on a hotbar system with no problems.


The problem is that without gear swap some job are hard to play effectively. A Scorpian Harness ninja can get kicked by jerks who demand haste gear >_>. At the same time, a full haste Ninja will get eaten alive in pure tanking situation. Gear swap and its situational use is fundamental to FFXI engine.

One way to make GEO to work is to make a DPS or healer that rely on placing effects over area. The area effect damage or heals will have to be tuned quite well for game balance; however an area affect specialist may be difficult to work with certain bosses. As for Dancer, I will agree with you that it can work indeed like a melee Bard.

Anyway, FF14 is really a very different game than FF11. Nothing can be ported from 11 without big changes.


Edited, Feb 18th 2017 10:21pm by scchan
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#16 Feb 18 2017 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
To be fair here, the reason FFXI needs to lean on macros like it does is because of gear swapping. Without gear swapping, you could easily run FFXI on a hotbar system with no problems.

Yeah. Very few things in XI actually required complicated macros. Like most people, I had gear swaps out the wazoo, but across all jobs I only had a handful of macros that involved multiple spells/abilities.

BrokenFox wrote:
BST in FF14 would just be a crappy melee with a pet or a crappy ranged user with a pet.

I don't care. I just want a pet, damn it!

I haven't played XI in 7 years and I still miss my wyvern.
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#17 Feb 18 2017 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
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The problem is that without gear swap some job are hard to play effectively. A Scorpian Harness ninja can get kicked by jerks who demand haste gear >_>. At the same time, a full haste Ninja will get eaten alive in pure tanking situation. Gear swap and its situational use is fundamental to FFXI engine.


Definitely. FFXI needs gear swapping to not be a complete nightmare, but the net result of that is that macro chains are a thing. Frankly I'm surprised they never expanded the macro interface beyond 6 lines per macro. That always seemed needlessly limiting in a game that relies on them so much.

(I know you can use macro subcommands to change pages and effectively have more lines by just hitting the button a bunch of times, but that's a band-aid fix at best)
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#18 Feb 18 2017 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
Frankly I'm surprised they never expanded the macro interface beyond 6 lines per macro. That always seemed needlessly limiting in a game that relies on them so much.

I know, right? I used one of those third party script things get bigger macros. Majorly against the ToS, but it sure beat having to press several buttons just to cast one spell.

Edited, Feb 18th 2017 11:02pm by Karlina
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#19 Feb 18 2017 at 11:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Karlina wrote:
[quote=Callinon]

I haven't played XI in 7 years and I still miss my wyvern.


You can get one from the Mog quests but then you'll actually have to craft
#20 Feb 19 2017 at 1:43 AM Rating: Good
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Charm is honestly one of the worst executed things XI pulled, despite the fact some people liked it. Overall, I can understand the allure of making wild critters fight for you, but then you had factors like mischarms, EXP penalty early on, variable charm durations, traditional camps rarely supporting the play style, early MPK, NM/zoo cheese, endgame areas lacking charmables, some mobs being outright immune, and an overall minimal control of the mob itself.

What came later of jug pets really should've been the job from the start, and has arguably been done similarly in other MMOs in their own ways, Of course, pet jobs always wind up a balance nightmare depending on how one feels the master should also play., and some think SCH is toeing that line in XIV already.
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#21 Feb 19 2017 at 5:14 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
Charm is honestly one of the worst executed things XI pulled, despite the fact some people liked it. Overall, I can understand the allure of making wild critters fight for you, but then you had factors like mischarms, EXP penalty early on, variable charm durations, traditional camps rarely supporting the play style, early MPK, NM/zoo cheese, endgame areas lacking charmables, some mobs being outright immune, and an overall minimal control of the mob itself.

What came later of jug pets really should've been the job from the start, and has arguably been done similarly in other MMOs in their own ways, Of course, pet jobs always wind up a balance nightmare depending on how one feels the master should also play., and some think SCH is toeing that line in XIV already.


Charm is just something you like or you hate. Beastmasters (and Summoners) of FFXI operate their own world in FFXI, and attract die hard following for a relatively small but highly dedicated group (some people will call them loonies haha).

Anyway, to make BST works in FFXIV - a small number of jug pets with SMN-like way to control them, melee weapon (there is no whip in FFXIV!). That will be too similar to SMN in many ways, but it will appeal to people who still really want their crab and sheep smacking stuff. However, that will probably appeal too little people, and may cause serious balance problems with SMN (especially you know some people will post a long list of numbers to show who is better and troll which job is behind by x%!).

Speaking of being loony, I braved myself to be the loony play AST immediately when it came out. Now they are everywhere as AST gets a lot stronger (perhaps too strong). Majority of players are either opportunists or fad followers. I just play whatever job I want to as it is more fun that way.


Edited, Feb 19th 2017 6:20am by scchan
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#22 Feb 19 2017 at 6:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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scchan wrote:
Anyway, to make BST works in FFXIV - a small number of jug pets with SMN-like way to control them, melee weapon (there is no whip in FFXIV!). That will be too similar to SMN in many ways, but it will appeal to people who still really want their crab and sheep smacking stuff.

You say "too similar to SMN" like it's a bad thing. A melee with SMN like pets is exactly what I want.
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#23 Feb 20 2017 at 2:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
Definitely. FFXI needs gear swapping to not be a complete nightmare, but the net result of that is that macro chains are a thing. Frankly I'm surprised they never expanded the macro interface beyond 6 lines per macro. That always seemed needlessly limiting in a game that relies on them so much.
That's likely a UI limitation more than anything else. Considering FFXI was built for the PS2 in addition to the age of the game (changing UI takes more work than changing stuff like icons, and involves digging though code to do), I imagine it's a similar situation as the 16-slot Backpack in WoW, where you can't touch it without breaking lots of other things.
BrokenFox wrote:
BST in FF14 would just be a crappy melee with a pet or a crappy ranged user with a pet.
Depends. IMO, BST would work as a tank that can ride on the back of their pet. You'd need an animal that's believable as a tank (a bear, or a boar or a fenrir-style wolf). Could also give it the option of DPS-type pets. So riding your bear/wolf/boar would be your version of Shield Oath, and summoning a DPS pet like a tiger or ladybug or damselfly or pugil would be your version of Sword Oath. Limit it to 5 total pet slots with some utility between them and you'd have a good starting point for BST.

Edited, Feb 20th 2017 3:44am by Ruisu
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#24 Feb 20 2017 at 3:55 AM Rating: Good
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Ruisu wrote:
Callinon wrote:
Definitely. FFXI needs gear swapping to not be a complete nightmare, but the net result of that is that macro chains are a thing. Frankly I'm surprised they never expanded the macro interface beyond 6 lines per macro. That always seemed needlessly limiting in a game that relies on them so much.
That's likely a UI limitation more than anything else. Considering FFXI was built for the PS2 in addition to the age of the game (changing UI takes more work than changing stuff like icons, and involves digging though code to do), I imagine it's a similar situation as the 16-slot Backpack in WoW, where you can't touch it without breaking lots of other things.
BrokenFox wrote:
BST in FF14 would just be a crappy melee with a pet or a crappy ranged user with a pet.
Depends. IMO, BST would work as a tank that can ride on the back of their pet. You'd need an animal that's believable as a tank (a bear, or a boar or a fenrir-style wolf). Could also give it the option of DPS-type pets. So riding your bear/wolf/boar would be your version of Shield Oath, and summoning a DPS pet like a tiger or ladybug or damselfly or pugil would be your version of Sword Oath. Limit it to 5 total pet slots with some utility between them and you'd have a good starting point for BST.

Edited, Feb 20th 2017 3:44am by Ruisu


Now that is a way that I have not thought about. Perhaps a merge between barbarian and beastmaster. In some ways that does not need to be a tank at all. DPS works as well, and I bet many will play to just fight riding an animal. X_x
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Art for the sake of art itself is an idle sentence.
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