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It's crazy how many DPS players still don't know the basicsFollow

#1 Mar 13 2017 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm talking Blizzard 3 spammer in Dun Scaith types of players. XIV could really use some kind of "advanced" dungeon queue/roulette. Can't gain access until you pass a simple DPS skill check. Make it synced too, so you can't just overgear it. When you blast people with "YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED IN CAUSE YOU'RE DOING TERRIBLE" that tends to motivate them to do better.

Edited, Mar 13th 2017 2:38pm by BrokenFox
#2 Mar 13 2017 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
I'm talking Blizzard 3 spammer in Dun Scaith types of players. XIV could really use some kind of "advanced" dungeon queue/roulette. Can't gain access until you pass a simple DPS skill check. Make it synced too, so you can't just overgear it. When you blast people with "YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED IN CAUSE YOU'RE DOING TERRIBLE" that tends to motivate them to do better.

Edited, Mar 13th 2017 2:38pm by BrokenFox


People didn't really appreciate it when Blizzard did something similar. AND it didn't improve the quality of players in the random dungeon queues.

I'd love there to be a way for the game to teach players how to play better, but I don't know a way to do it without it being punitive.
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#3 Mar 13 2017 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah. Blizzard did that exact thing in the previous WoW expansion. It didn't improve anything and just annoyed everyone, and they later did away with it.
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#4 Mar 13 2017 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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The problem starts early and just snowballs.

Earlier today, I had a GLA in Toto-Rak who only used 1 Flash in an entire battle, sparsely threw Provoke at random mobs, and was just using Fast Blade and occasionally a Savage Blade now and then.

I was a Rogue at the time, and I was pulling hate off of his current target, and he was also switching targets seemingly randomly throughout the battles.

It was just a mess, but yet we still got through the dungeon, AND he engaged the last boss while the other DPS was still in Cutscene. We managed to defeat the boss, but it was mostly me and the healer who carried the whole effort (took us forever and the healer almost ran out of MP). Thankfully the healer was skilled and was wearing seemingly endgame gear (huge glowing winged staff and all).

But the point of it is... said tank got carried through yet another dungeon and will enter the next dungeon while continuing to suck at his job and he'll probably get carried through that too. And the next, and the next.

That's the problem... the *required* MSQ dungeons Pre-50 are easy enough that you can carry a bad player if the rest of the players are skilled, and the 8-main raids are even worse, because most of them you can carry someone through too.

That's not to even mention someone who cleared them on another job and they just suck/don't care about the job they are currently leveling... the aforementioned tank had dyed gear and a shield I was pretty sure I recognized as being from a later dungeon, even. It could be possible that he has other jobs on 50+ and just doesn't know how to play a GLA or can't be bothered to put the effort in.

Karlina wrote:
Yeah. Blizzard did that exact thing in the previous WoW expansion. It didn't improve anything and just annoyed everyone, and they later did away with it.


To be fair, it was not balanced very well, and not implemented well either and had glaring flaws. Depending on what class you were, it was either cakewalk or ridiculously difficult with little room for error, and if said tutorial required NPCs, the NPCs had ridiculously horrible AI that didn't behave like any sane person would. And the "Wave" system sucked too, it sucked to be at, say, Wave 8-9 and be 1 second short of killing the last mob.... yeah, have fun spending another 30-45min to get back to that wave to try again. It was a chore, it was boring, and it had very little to do with actual party situations.

FFXI has far better "New Player" tutorials, but they are neither required, nor are they tailored for each job. I wonder if perhaps they should make a Lv30, 50, and 60 "Tutorial" quest that requires you to use all aspects of your job, and if you suck at your job, you won't win the fight, period and not make it required, but yet add a nice reward to it?

The Lv50 class quests are kinda like that, but I don't feel they go far enough nor are they close enough to what you'll face in an actual party situation.

Edited, Mar 13th 2017 6:04pm by Lyrailis
#5 Mar 14 2017 at 2:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Stone Sky Sea gets the job done

DPS = Do this amount of damage in this amount of time

Tank = Defend these targets and mitigate the damage while doing x amount of damage yourself

Healer = Keep these targets alive while killing these other targets

Lock every tier behind skill checks. Otherwise you just have clueless people stumbling into content and becoming a burden for everyone else in the group. In the age of auto-group finders this is the only way to separate the good players from the players that need to learn. In an old school MMO if you sucked you'd just get kicked out of the party, and continue to get kicked and kicked and kicked until you learned how to play.

Edited, Mar 14th 2017 4:16am by BrokenFox
#6 Mar 14 2017 at 1:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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BrokenFox wrote:
Lock every tier behind skill checks.
Who gets to be the standard?
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#7 Mar 14 2017 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Not sucking gets to be the standard
#8 Mar 14 2017 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
Not sucking gets to be the standard


But who decides what that means?
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#9 Mar 15 2017 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Gaxe pretty much summed it up. Ultimately, what winds up considering the standard will relate to the job and its expected rotations. And since MMOs err more toward twitchy/reaction style play, this is automatically going to complicate things for players who enjoy more relaxed affairs.

Realistically, if the devs are expecting a certain class to be a certain way at a given level cap, they need to throw out some NPCs or something that will both set your macro bar(s) to a perceived optimum and then actually explain the rotation in a tutorial, perhaps even keeping track of presses. I can't quite get behind this being "required" to do whatever else, but it'd be something for those who learn better by doing rather than trying to discern a video or someone else's post. I'd also say it warrants some improvements to the macro system and possibly some minor automation here and there for those who'd prefer it (like automatically use the next step in a chain if you're facing your target/in range when GCD is up).

Otherwise, you risk starting looking at differences in play style, like healers who obsess over keeping everyone topped off compared to those who just like to wait until someone near death and bomb them. Both may still get the job done, but you can bet people are gonna feel antsy playing with the latter. Nevermind the fact you get some people who deliberately just PUG to see what they can get away with in terms of leeching or playing terribly.
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#10 Mar 15 2017 at 1:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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The issue here is twofold:

1: New players don't know what they're doing
2: Veteran players don't want to teach but expect the newer players to learn anyway

If you're one of those players that thinks the BLM spamming Blizzard 3 in a dungeon is totally unreasonable, you need to step back a second and think about it from their perspective.

I've been playing MMOs in one form or another for over 20 years now. That's longer than most of these newer players have been alive. I can pick up a class, spend 20 minutes or so reading abilities and passives and generally work out which buttons should go where and basically how to play the class because I've been doing this forever. While others may not have quite THAT much experience in the genre, it doesn't take all that much to be able to do this and pick up a new class and play without a guide.

A newer player on the other hand, maybe on their first MMO, doesn't have those years or decades of experience working this stuff out. They know what the game taught them.

So it's not reasonable for, for instance, me to set the standard by which a player should be judged on whether they suck or not because my experience is so radically different form their's. Ideally the game should do this but I've never seen an MMO actually do that and I think that any attempt by a game to teach a full rotation would be correctly seen as taking something away from the community. You're supposed to go and ask people who are better than you how to do things, but a new player doesn't necessarily know that and if they're on their first MMO, they're used to the game showing them how to do things and this one doesn't do that.

Going back to the BLM example, the blizzard 3 spamming ice mage of iciness sees that the spell appears to do acceptable damage (it does) and they never run out of mp. They don't really understand how the fire aspect of their class works. Maybe they've seen that it does more damage but it also runs them out of mp. So maybe they figure they can compromise by sticking to ice and doing slightly less damage. They don't understand that it's a LOT less damage because they haven't done or can't do the math for themselves and don't know that they should look up a guide. FFXIV's rotations are also REALLY complicated. BLM is probably the simplest. When I was a NIN main my opener was something like 30 buttons long. That's absurd. And there's no reasonable way for the game to teach that without SE basically writing class guides.

It's hard to teach. Some people don't want to learn. Some people don't think they should have to. Some people think they know everything when they don't. But that's how an MMO is supposed to work. You're supposed to teach those that come after you how to improve. Not just write them off.
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#11 Mar 15 2017 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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It's hard to teach. Some people don't want to learn. Some people don't think they should have to. Some people think they know everything when they don't. But that's how an MMO is supposed to work. You're supposed to teach those that come after you how to improve. Not just write them off.


And here's the crux of the problem. A lot of times I WILL try to teach somebody, but no matter how politely I try to word it, no matter how gentle I try it, more often than not, the player hurls hate in return, because I dared question their gameplay.

"I'll play how I want, it's my $15!"
"You're just being elitist!"
"You're a ___, what do you know about being a ___?"

Or, my personal favorite, absolute silence and they continue doing what they were doing.

Just today I had yet ANOTHER tank, this time a PLD in Tam-Tara.... I honestly could not figure out what he was doing wrong. He opened with Flash, I saw him using FB->SB but yet he still kept losing hate constantly even when I was making sure to attack his current target, even on boss mobs. I didn't examine his equipment, though. He could have been using Lv5 gear for all I know. The only thing I noted is that he was not using Shield Throw; he'd body aggro and then use Flash. I don't think that should make THAT much of a difference, though?

And then there was the glamour'd WHM that would wait until he was 30-50% dead to start curing (which caused the tank to die on one of the demons, you REALLY can't wait with those, you gotta heal ASAP and keep them full with those). I mean, seriously, a Glamour'd WHM with what looked the Leviathan Staff (I used it once myself so I know what it looks like).

So this WHM was Lv50 and far enough along into the MSQ to have gotten to Leviathan and she's waiting for the tank to be <50% before even starting to cure?

Oi.

EDIT: I know the thread is about DPS, and I keep talking about tanks and heals, but to be honest the problem is not limited to DPS and oftentimes when you have a terrible healer or a tank, it will be even worse than having a terrible DPS. But the behavior certainly isn't limited to just DPS. Tank and Heal is attractive for faster Q times and better bonuses from the Roulettes, so some players seem to Q up purely for that, even if they aren't really that interested in actually playing the role, or they have no real idea of how to do it, or they just simply don't have the mindset to play such a role. It's difficult to be effective as a tank or heal if someone completely lacks any kind of care for their fellow teammate and actually have the consideration to keep track of their needs and have the mindset to try to help people rather than be self-centered.

Edited, Mar 15th 2017 5:10pm by Lyrailis
#12 Mar 15 2017 at 3:41 PM Rating: Good
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And here's the crux of the problem. A lot of times I WILL try to teach somebody, but no matter how politely I try to word it, no matter how gentle I try it, more often than not, the player hurls hate in return, because I dared question their gameplay.


You're not wrong and there's no solution to that. If someone just refuses to learn and refuses to take help, then they're going to just suck permanently. Maybe one day they'll figure it out on their own, or they'll decide they need to look up a guide. But this is just an aspect of human nature and it's not going anywhere. The good news is that people like this will be kept out of high-end content by virtue of being terrible and not improving. The game doesn't need to take any action here.

Quote:
He opened with Flash, I saw him using FB->SB but yet he still kept losing hate constantly even when I was making sure to attack his current target, even on boss mobs. I didn't examine his equipment, though. He could have been using Lv5 gear for all I know. The only thing I noted is that he was not using Shield Throw; he'd body aggro and then use Flash. I don't think that should make THAT much of a difference, though?


Yep, that's the exact problem. Shield Lob produces a ton of threat that you simply don't get when you body pull a pack. So with a Shield Lob you have enough threat on the main target that you can flash, run through your enmity combo on all targets... flash again, and you're set. The biggest problem I run into with new PLDs is that they only Flash once. You've got to keep doing that because otherwise you're just not generating threat on things and your party IS.

Quote:
So this WHM was Lv50 and far enough along into the MSQ to have gotten to Leviathan and she's waiting for the tank to be <50% before even starting to cure?


Thing is that's a legitimate healing strategy most of the time. In this particular case it isn't because you're up against something with some form of tank buster that can turn a tank into salsa in a couple of hits. But most of the time this is fine and allows the healer to add some dps without causing a problem. It's a matter of experience to know when it's ok to do that and when it isn't.

Quote:
EDIT: I know the thread is about DPS, and I keep talking about tanks and heals, but to be honest the problem is not limited to DPS and oftentimes when you have a terrible healer or a tank, it will be even worse than having a terrible DPS.


You're right of course. DPS is just easier to quantify and so it makes for an easier conversation. Tanking and healing ability is a lot more nebulous and harder to figure out with a parser.
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#13 Mar 16 2017 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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Another day, another bad player.

Up until these last 3-4 days, the groups I've had in the Roulettes were very reasonable. I dunno what is up with this all the sudden.

So I zone into Haukke Manor on my 32 NIN and I'm like "YAY!" because I'll get loads of XP since it's a dungeon close to my level. First thing, the tank says "I'm new to tanking this place".

The healer (a WHM who, for some reason, has a red glowing sword and shield? didn't think that was possible. Kinda looked somewhat like a POTD weapon) casts Protect and we start into the first room... we didn't notice that she suddenly DC'd before the pull. Tank dies, rezzes and we barely managed to handle the rest of the mobs without anybody else dying.

Apparently the healer bailed group just because the tank was new to tanking the dungeon, but yet I know he had done the dungeon before, because he seemingly knew where to go for the most part.

Well, we got a replacement healer... the tank wasn't top-notch, but he wasn't entirely terrible either. He was OK. That first healer though... *rolls eyes* So ridiculous. At least give someone a chance.

Edited, Mar 16th 2017 1:03pm by Lyrailis
#14 Mar 16 2017 at 11:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, we got a replacement healer... the tank wasn't top-notch, but he wasn't entirely terrible either. He was OK. That first healer though... *rolls eyes* So ridiculous. At least give someone a chance.


It's even more ridiculous given the ease of those early dungeons. I've been through that place with a tank who was basically non-existent and it really didn't even slow us down.
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#15 Mar 16 2017 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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That was an Astrologian with a POTD weapon
#16 Mar 16 2017 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Bailed on Dusk Vigil because the two Black Mages were spamming Fire 3
#17 Mar 16 2017 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
That was an Astrologian with a POTD weapon


OH! Derp. I don't know why I thought it was a WHM. Odd.
#18 Mar 17 2017 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
That was an Astrologian with a POTD weapon


Thanks, that wasn't working for me.
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#19 Mar 21 2017 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Dps can be a real problem...
I have had Tanks ask me if we should do big pulls or not in a dungeon, I always reply ask the dps.
If a pull fails everyone always looks at the healer and occasionally it is and occasionally the tank but mostly it is the dps. I do not play tank but they only have so many cool downs. Healers only can hit cure so fast and have really have very few abilities to help heal and limited mp.

I have run the same dungeon over and over and had some tanks pull twice as much and do fine and other pull half as much and fail. Same dungeon and same healer. What went wrong? DPS could not bring the mobs down before tank runs out of cool down or healer runs out of abilities. To many mobs not killed by aoe damage and all still alive.
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#20 Mar 21 2017 at 9:51 PM Rating: Good
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As a healer, I hate it when people try to overpull.

Seriously, I know that everybody thinks that their time is oh-so-valuable, but just pull the stupid mobs, one group at a time unless you're doing really well.

Start off single groups and if those go well then maybe add a few extra mobs per pull, that way we don't get an embarassing wipe near the beginning of the dungeon that just sours everybody's mood.

That and I hate when a tank grabs a group and then he keeps running (especially when he gives no warning that he's going to pull multiple groups). I can't cure him while he's running away from me, constantly running out of Cure range. And sometimes he ends up losing mobs to me because I have to pump heals into him because one, nay, two groups just aren't enough mobs to tackle at once.

The dungeons don't take THAT long, even if you do single group pulls. Seriously, what's the freaking hurry?

Edited, Mar 21st 2017 11:54pm by Lyrailis
#21 Mar 22 2017 at 12:07 AM Rating: Excellent
I always start with full pulls, but if the group is struggling then I slow down without any complaints. It's not that I'm in a huge hurry, but why spend more time than necessary?
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#22 Mar 22 2017 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
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Because you don't save any time if you mis-judge the group and end up causing a wipe? Any time you could have saved is wasted and everybody's mood immediately becomes sour if an early-dungeon wipe occurs.

That's why it is better to start small and add more as you see the group is handling well. That way if the group CAN'T handle it, you will know that before trying it and nobody has to wipe and start grumbling.

Far too many people treat death like it's something major...they get in foul moods and sometimes they bail or what-not and that's a huge waste of time, especially over something that's completely optional anyways.

I have no qualms with pulling the entire dungeon group by group, but yet I DO have qualms when I gotta spend 5 minutes sitting around waiting for a replacement because the tank wanted to pull 2-3 groups to start the dungeon and the DPS couldn't handle it, or he didn't warn me and ran out of range and he died and now I'm getting the blame put on me, blah blah. Then, I DO mind.
#23 Mar 22 2017 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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That and I hate when a tank grabs a group and then he keeps running (especially when he gives no warning that he's going to pull multiple groups). I can't cure him while he's running away from me, constantly running out of Cure range. And sometimes he ends up losing mobs to me because I have to pump heals into him because one, nay, two groups just aren't enough mobs to tackle at once.


Yeah, don't do that. If you see your tank is pulling more than one group at a time (a dead giveaway is when they pull something and then keep on going) just wait and let them handle it until they stop. THEN heal them.

Pulling multiple groups in max-level dungeons is an extremely common practice and you should expect it to happen more often than not. If you're trying to heal a tank while they're in the middle of doing that, you're going to cause a wipe because the tank is going to have to stop what he's doing to pull mobs off of you one by one.
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#24 Mar 22 2017 at 8:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
As a healer, I hate it when people try to overpull.

Seriously, I know that everybody thinks that their time is oh-so-valuable, but just pull the stupid mobs, one group at a time unless you're doing really well.

Start off single groups and if those go well then maybe add a few extra mobs per pull, that way we don't get an embarassing wipe near the beginning of the dungeon that just sours everybody's mood.

That and I hate when a tank grabs a group and then he keeps running (especially when he gives no warning that he's going to pull multiple groups). I can't cure him while he's running away from me, constantly running out of Cure range. And sometimes he ends up losing mobs to me because I have to pump heals into him because one, nay, two groups just aren't enough mobs to tackle at once.

The dungeons don't take THAT long, even if you do single group pulls. Seriously, what's the freaking hurry?

Edited, Mar 21st 2017 11:54pm by Lyrailis


Yea that is the problem when you have no idea how far they are going and they stop and you throw a cure and they take off again. Every tank is different and we are supposed to read their minds on how far they are going. I like to make sure the tank has stoneskin just as they kill the mobs this gives me a little buffer as they make their next pull.

Honestly I think smaller pulls can be faster. If I can use my mp for damage instead of healing. Holy even gimped can help bring allot of mobs down fast.
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#25 Mar 22 2017 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
Because you don't save any time if you mis-judge the group and end up causing a wipe? Any time you could have saved is wasted and everybody's mood immediately becomes sour if an early-dungeon wipe occurs.

That's why it is better to start small and add more as you see the group is handling well. That way if the group CAN'T handle it, you will know that before trying it and nobody has to wipe and start grumbling.

Far too many people treat death like it's something major...they get in foul moods and sometimes they bail or what-not and that's a huge waste of time, especially over something that's completely optional anyways.

I have no qualms with pulling the entire dungeon group by group, but yet I DO have qualms when I gotta spend 5 minutes sitting around waiting for a replacement because the tank wanted to pull 2-3 groups to start the dungeon and the DPS couldn't handle it, or he didn't warn me and ran out of range and he died and now I'm getting the blame put on me, blah blah. Then, I DO mind.


Yea in this game you do not even loose exp when you die. It means nothing but people get so upset if it happens.

I had/have been doing allot of Alexander and when we wipe always one or two people leave. What is funny after they do we almost always beat it.. They were the problem, most probably think they are better than they were or were hoping for a carry.




Edited, Mar 22nd 2017 11:03am by Nashred
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#26 Mar 22 2017 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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That and I hate when a tank grabs a group and then he keeps running (especially when he gives no warning that he's going to pull multiple groups). I can't cure him while he's running away from me, constantly running out of Cure range. And sometimes he ends up losing mobs to me because I have to pump heals into him because one, nay, two groups just aren't enough mobs to tackle at once.


Yeah, don't do that. If you see your tank is pulling more than one group at a time (a dead giveaway is when they pull something and then keep on going) just wait and let them handle it until they stop. THEN heal them.

Pulling multiple groups in max-level dungeons is an extremely common practice and you should expect it to happen more often than not. If you're trying to heal a tank while they're in the middle of doing that, you're going to cause a wipe because the tank is going to have to stop what he's doing to pull mobs off of you one by one.


So what you're saying is to just let the tank die, then.

When tanks do this, by the time they get the first group, I see their HP is down to like 80%. Okay... 2nd group, now they're dipping into the 60% region, and by the time they finally start flashing the third and final group, now they're down in the 30s.

I'm supposed to get a heal on them, a BIG heal that they're going to need, WITH a slow GCD and the 2-2.5s casting time, and somehow keep them alive from 30% health with three groups of mobs pounding on them?

*sigh*

Of course they're going to drop dead. I've seen tanks do this, and I always roll my eyes going "uh, why? You could see that you were getting badly hurt on the 2nd group, why did you keep running for the 3rd!?"

Tanks need to realize that our heals take 2 or so seconds to cast AND there's a 1.5s GCD to boot. The GCD is rolled into the casting time, yes, UNLESS it's an instant-cast spell. So even if I use Swiftcast, I STILL have to wait a minimum of 1.5s GCD to START casting the next 2-second Cure.

In Short: I don't like seeing 30% health tanks running up to a 3rd group of mobs to try to tank them, too. No way I can get their health back up in time. Seriously. Nor do I like spamming Cure 2/3 right from the start to try and beat the insane incoming damage. I had enough of that in WoW where that was the norm, where tanks went from 100% to 20% to 80% to 20% to 80% to 20% every couple seconds. It's NOT fun gameplay, and one of the things I love about XIV healing is that it doesn't have to be like this, you get actual TIME to make decisions on what to do.

Unless, of course, you get an overly impatient tank who just wants to pull pull pull even if he's in no condition to pull more mobs.
#27 Mar 22 2017 at 9:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
Callinon wrote:
Quote:
That and I hate when a tank grabs a group and then he keeps running (especially when he gives no warning that he's going to pull multiple groups). I can't cure him while he's running away from me, constantly running out of Cure range. And sometimes he ends up losing mobs to me because I have to pump heals into him because one, nay, two groups just aren't enough mobs to tackle at once.


Yeah, don't do that. If you see your tank is pulling more than one group at a time (a dead giveaway is when they pull something and then keep on going) just wait and let them handle it until they stop. THEN heal them.

Pulling multiple groups in max-level dungeons is an extremely common practice and you should expect it to happen more often than not. If you're trying to heal a tank while they're in the middle of doing that, you're going to cause a wipe because the tank is going to have to stop what he's doing to pull mobs off of you one by one.


So what you're saying is to just let the tank die, then.

When tanks do this, by the time they get the first group, I see their HP is down to like 80%. Okay... 2nd group, now they're dipping into the 60% region, and by the time they finally start flashing the third and final group, now they're down in the 30s.

I'm supposed to get a heal on them, a BIG heal that they're going to need, WITH a slow GCD and the 2-2.5s casting time, and somehow keep them alive from 30% health with three groups of mobs pounding on them?

*sigh*

Of course they're going to drop dead. I've seen tanks do this, and I always roll my eyes going "uh, why? You could see that you were getting badly hurt on the 2nd group, why did you keep running for the 3rd!?"

Tanks need to realize that our heals take 2 or so seconds to cast AND there's a 1.5s GCD to boot. The GCD is rolled into the casting time, yes, UNLESS it's an instant-cast spell. So even if I use Swiftcast, I STILL have to wait a minimum of 1.5s GCD to START casting the next 2-second Cure.

In Short: I don't like seeing 30% health tanks running up to a 3rd group of mobs to try to tank them, too. No way I can get their health back up in time. Seriously. Nor do I like spamming Cure 2/3 right from the start to try and beat the insane incoming damage. I had enough of that in WoW where that was the norm, where tanks went from 100% to 20% to 80% to 20% to 80% to 20% every couple seconds. It's NOT fun gameplay, and one of the things I love about XIV healing is that it doesn't have to be like this, you get actual TIME to make decisions on what to do.

Unless, of course, you get an overly impatient tank who just wants to pull pull pull even if he's in no condition to pull more mobs.



Yea I hear you there, a tank should be watching his health because sometimes they get hit harder or hesitated a second longer and took a few extra hits than the last time they ran the dungeon on the same pull.. It does not happen allot but when that tank hits 30 percent health it is hard to get them back up especially if the mobs are throwing out aoe,s and you have to move or better yet when there is that lag. Tanks see their health drop before you do it is common lag and then there is the lag from your heal. Healing would be so much easier if you had at least one ability that allowed you to heal while moving.




Edited, Mar 22nd 2017 11:31am by Nashred
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#28 Mar 22 2017 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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Yea I hear you there, a tank should be watching his health because sometimes they get hit harder or hesitated a second longer and took a few extra hits than the last time they ran the dungeon on the same pull.. It does not happen allot but when that tank hits 30 percent health it is hard to get them back up especially if the mobs are throwing out aoe,s and you have to move or better yet when there is that lag. Tanks see their health drop before you do it is common lag and then there is the lag from your heal. Healing would be so much easier if you had at least one ability that allowed you to heal while moving.


Well, there's Regen, but the thing I hate about Instant-Cast spells, is that they trigger the GCD.

No, what we need is a heal separate from the GCD... an emergency heal that can be cast while the GCD is going.

I mean, c'mon, tanks and DPS have attacks that can be used while on the GCD... any Counter-Attack (Haymaker, etc)... Spirits Within... Circle of Scorn, Provoke...

What do Healers have that can be used on GCD? Certainly nothing as a WHM that I can remember.

When people die (because of a lack of heals, that is), a large % of the time, it's because of the GCD. "IF only the GCD hadn't stopped me, I could have casted that Cure 1.5 sooner!"

Especially when it comes to trying to fit Regen in.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2017 11:39am by Lyrailis
#29 Mar 22 2017 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
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When tanks do this, by the time they get the first group, I see their HP is down to like 80%. Okay... 2nd group, now they're dipping into the 60% region, and by the time they finally start flashing the third and final group, now they're down in the 30s.


That shouldn't be happening. The tank should be using cooldowns to do a pull like that and should be staying far enough ahead of the crowd that he isn't taking a ton of extra hits anyway. If the tank is bad at this, then yeah it's going to suck and they shouldn't do it until they improve. But most tanks CAN do this correctly. The ones that can't are the exception.

Quote:
No, what we need is a heal separate from the GCD... an emergency heal that can be cast while the GCD is going.


Isn't Tetragrammaton off the GCD? I play AST when I heal and Essential Dignity is absolutely off the GCD. I believe SCH's Lustrate is as well.

And also it's a good time for Presence of Mind and massive Cure 2 bombing until the nonsense is under control. Your cooldowns are there to be used, don't horde them.

EDIT: Btw if you want a quick way to tell whether or not something is on or off the GCD, look at the type. A spell or weaponskill is on-GCD. An ability is off-GCD.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2017 10:49am by Callinon
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#30 Mar 22 2017 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Speaking of lag I do not think many people realize How bad it is in this game and how much it really can affect it. We also have a excellent connection of like 35mbps down and pretty good up.

We sit next to each other and you can see it. I look on my screen when we are on chocos and I look like i am 6 lengths ahead on mine and on hers she looks to be 6 lengths ahead. I can hit jump and watch my character jump on my screen and land and turn to hers and just see my character starts to jump. Sometimes Tesee looks like she is standing in a aoe and I tell her to move but she is already out.

Now apply that to healing. Tank sees his health hit 30 percent how long does it take for you to see it on your screen? Now you throw a heal and how long does it take for him to see it?

You see it in FFXI to but not as bad.
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#31 Mar 22 2017 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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Now apply that to healing. Tank sees his health hit 30 percent how long does it take for you to see it on your screen? Now you throw a heal and how long does it take for him to see it?


You'll both see that change in health at roughly the same time.

What you described above with the chocobo running is subject to the client-server relationship. Where your client thinks you're further ahead than the server does. The change in HP isn't subject to this because the server is handling everything. Your client isn't calculating changes in HP, the server is doing that and reporting it to you.
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#32 Mar 22 2017 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Because you don't save any time if you mis-judge the group and end up causing a wipe? Any time you could have saved is wasted and everybody's mood immediately becomes sour if an early-dungeon wipe occurs.


The vast majority of my DF groups handle these pulls with no problems. So either the playerbase is overwhelmingly capable, or I'm just a rockstar tank. Maybe both. :)

If we happen to wipe, no big deal. But that hardly ever happens.... I can't even remember the last time that happened to me. If we wipe, it's usually because the healer does something stupid and dies in a boss fight.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2017 9:06am by Thayos
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#33 Mar 22 2017 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
The vast majority of my DF groups handle these pulls with no problems. So either the playerbase is overwhelmingly capable, or I'm just a rockstar tank. Maybe both. :)

It's probably both. As we get farther into a raid cycle everyone has better gear and it gets easier for random people to pull bigger groups.

Really though, I'm with Lyra on this. As a healer, I can't count the number of times I've see tanks over pull and die 30 seconds into a dungeon (sometimes not even waiting for Protect and stuff.) Just because one time you saw someone pull the whole room at once doesn't mean that YOU can do it in your crappy gear. Even if you can handle it there's no guarantee that the healer or DPS can keep up. I'm a good healer, but I'm not good enough to carry a group all by myself.

I'm fine with big pulls and speed runs if the group can handle it, but take it slow for the first few pulls to find out.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2017 12:59pm by Karlina
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#34 Mar 22 2017 at 1:41 PM Rating: Excellent
I do take it slow during the first week of a new patch, and I always wait for buffs and make sure nobody is afk. I will also burn all my CDs and Hallowed to get through that first pull, then slow down if the pt isnt up to it... but that is rare.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2017 12:51pm by Thayos
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#35 Mar 22 2017 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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I'm fine with big pulls and speed runs if the group can handle it, but take it slow for the first few pulls to find out.


^^
This.

It wouldn't kill you gogogogogogogo people to take one or two pulls slow to make sure people can handle it. Seriously.
#36 Mar 22 2017 at 6:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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It wouldn't kill you gogogogogogogo people to take one or two pulls slow to make sure people can handle it. Seriously.


But you don't really know until you do it. So why not just get to the good stuff?

Plus, small pulls are boooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrriinnnnnnng. Dealing with large pulls actually makes me work for it sometimes.
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#37 Mar 22 2017 at 7:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I always pull big first to gauge the strength of the group. If they struggle with it then I'll take it slower.
#38 Mar 22 2017 at 7:52 PM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
I always pull big first to gauge the strength of the group. If they struggle with it then I'll take it slower.


That's how most tanks handle it.

Though I would suggest that tanks learn to pay attention of Baelsar's Wall specifically to that first set of skyarmors. If one of them tethers the healer STOP and kill the pack. Don't keep going. Because your healer is going to just die. And that's going to suck for everyone.
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#39 Mar 22 2017 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
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Hm. I wonder if the difference of opinion on caution vs aggression is part of what makes some people gravitate towards one role or the other in the first place. I've honestly never thought about it that way before.

I also wonder if maybe it's a blame thing. If a group is going too slow, people always blame the tank. If someone dies, people always blame the healer. Even if it's not their fault, people usually blame them. That could be part of why tanks like to start with bigger pulls while healers prefer smaller ones.
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#40 Mar 22 2017 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
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I dunno, I play both tank and heal... though I don't particularly like big pulls either, even while I'm playing a tank.

If someone has gripes about how slow we're going, well... you either put up with it, or you wait the 5-10 minutes to find another tank. Which is more important? That 1-2 min faster clear or the 10 minutes waiting for another tank to arrive? lol.

Thayos wrote:
But you don't really know until you do it. So why not just get to the good stuff?


*shrugs* I can't say risking wasted time due to death is "good stuff", to be honest. I see it as pointless risk. I just wanna get through the dungeon. No need for flashy or show-off stuff. A plain and clean run is good, kthx.

Quote:
Plus, small pulls are boooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrriinnnnnnng. Dealing with large pulls actually makes me work for it sometimes.


Better boring than having people get into foul moods because of deaths. I'd rather get through a dungeon with 0 deaths than having people pointing fingers at each other after a wipe when someone couldn't handle it, or some bad luck happened or what-not.


Edited, Mar 22nd 2017 10:23pm by Lyrailis
#41 Mar 23 2017 at 12:11 AM Rating: Excellent
Like I said though, death really isn't an issue on my watch. And when people do die, it isn't usually from pulls.
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#42 Mar 23 2017 at 6:20 AM Rating: Decent
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More like saving 10-15 minutes when done right. Sounds like you're being overly cautious.
#43 Mar 23 2017 at 7:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Last night I get the wall for duty finder expert. This is the one that most tanks actually fail. There are those mobs that attach to someone right in the beginning. He did nothing to get them off of them and drained all my mp and abilities and down we went. He tried it a second time and none of my timers were up and by the time he went around the second corner his health was sunder 30 percent, he left then. Next tank same pull no issues. smooth run all the way.
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#44 Mar 23 2017 at 7:55 AM Rating: Good
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He did nothing to get them off of them and drained all my mp and abilities and down we went.


Those skyarmors don't have threat tables. They just tether to someone and shoot them until they die or the armor does. If they tether a tank or a dps it isn't usually that big a deal. If they grab the healer though it's a problem because their shots will interrupt casting and the healer will fall down.
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#45 Mar 25 2017 at 11:04 AM Rating: Default
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BrokenFox wrote:
I'm talking Blizzard 3 spammer in Dun Scaith types of players. XIV could really use some kind of "advanced" dungeon queue/roulette. Can't gain access until you pass a simple DPS skill check. Make it synced too, so you can't just overgear it. When you blast people with "YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED IN CAUSE YOU'RE DOING TERRIBLE" that tends to motivate them to do better.

Edited, Mar 13th 2017 2:38pm by BrokenFox


Yeah, sadly certain sects of players really hate if you try to close off content to them unless they can pass a test. Even then with FFXIV if they pass the test it doesn't mean much because you typically have a few skilled players/alliance group that can carry the entire run.

Which is a problem with both players and current content design.

Lyrailis wrote:
I dunno, I play both tank and heal... though I don't particularly like big pulls either, even while I'm playing a tank.

If someone has gripes about how slow we're going, well... you either put up with it, or you wait the 5-10 minutes to find another tank. Which is more important? That 1-2 min faster clear or the 10 minutes waiting for another tank to arrive? lol.
Edited, Mar 22nd 2017 10:23pm by Lyrailis



Let's put it this way:

It's never as insignificant as "1-2 minute faster clear", especially with current content design if your group is actually made up of people who were geared from prior patch or even this patch, it's more along the lines of 18-24+ minutes saved. Especially the later into the update cycle it is, the more time is saved. To some people it's "no big deal" but no one wants to do the same hallway dungeon for longer than they need to.

For example you can clear Dun Scaith within 20 -25 minutes if everyone is on their **** and actually geared. Compare that to the all too typical 70-90 minute runs due to people not knowing their rotation or how to do mechanics, even after you explain it and they see it 4-8 times after continual wipes.

Which would you prefer? Clearing it as fast as you can so you can get on with your life, or make that the ONLY content you run in a day on limited time?



Edited, Mar 25th 2017 10:11am by Theonehio
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#46 Mar 25 2017 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe SE should focus on doing less trash, then, or something? Honestly I don't know about the Lv60 HW content as I've yet to get there, but I see the mentality being carried on down to the older dungeons that were only 30 min affairs and I'm like "seriously, dude, it's freaking (insert Lv20-30 dungeon here)" .

If Dun Scaith takes 60+ minutes because you're not chain-pulling multiple groups, then that sounds like a bad design decision, sounds like they put too many "trash mobs" in the dungeon, or they made the dungeon longer than it needs to be. Especially if it is breeding the "gotta gogogogogo" behavior in players.

THEN, players who are used to Dun Scaith end up in some lowbie dungeon and they carry the mentality over, because they can't stand to not go fast.

It is starting to sound like SE should have just kept it to small and short dungeons instead of trying to get too lengthy with them.

Edited, Mar 25th 2017 2:32pm by Lyrailis
#47 Mar 25 2017 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe SE should focus on doing less trash, then, or something? Honestly I don't know about the Lv60 HW content as I've yet to get there, but I see the mentality being carried on down to the older dungeons that were only 30 min affairs and I'm like "seriously, dude, it's freaking (insert Lv20-30 dungeon here)" .


In a leveling dungeon, I might chain one pack into another as the first one gets close to death. But I rarely multi-pull in those.

Quote:
If Dun Scaith takes 60+ minutes because you're not chain-pulling multiple groups, then that sounds like a bad design decision, sounds like they put too many "trash mobs" in the dungeon, or they made the dungeon longer than it needs to be. Especially if it is breeding the "gotta gogogogogo" behavior in players.


You can't chain trash in Dun Scaith. But your group can fail pretty hard if they don't have their act together on the bosses. The bosses are like 10-15 minute fights with multiple opportunities to have a very bad day.
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#48 Mar 25 2017 at 1:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
Maybe SE should focus on doing less trash, then, or something? Honestly I don't know about the Lv60 HW content as I've yet to get there, but I see the mentality being carried on down to the older dungeons that were only 30 min affairs and I'm like "seriously, dude, it's freaking (insert Lv20-30 dungeon here)" .


They did more barriers so you can't "pull full dungeon" as a counter measure to early 2.0 shenanigans. The biggest issue is the fact people think "high ilvl = can ignore and eat every mechanic and pull whole dungeon even in a level 13 dungeon!"

There's quite a lot SE has to change in order to change player mentality tbh lol.
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#49 Mar 27 2017 at 5:15 AM Rating: Good
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Just had a DRK try to overpull in Cutter's Cry, lol.

The first two rooms, you can't overpull so we didn't know anything was going to go wrong, as the tank seemed competent enough. Then, after the first boss, well, first thing he does, is grab one group and then go high-tailing it over to the other group.

This gets him killed, and leaves me to tank one mob and the MCH to start running around trying to kite them with AoEs until the healer can rez the tank up in-between trying to keep us alive. We pull through, but barely.

We get through that room, and then the very next room, he does the same stupid thing AGAIN. He pulls one group and keeps on runnin', only this time he dies and the healer dies very soon afterward because he just can't handle 5-6 mobs beating on him. I'm like "really? again?" and the healer grumbled something too as we waste a good 2-3 minutes rezzing back up and running back.

I dunno about MCH, but a NIN (me) doesn't have a lot of AoEs at Lv40... I got..... Katon. That's it. Well, I think there's also that AoE knife throw or whatever it is... that does jack all for actual damage. Pulling multiple groups only works when you've got nice AoE... you know, like... a Black Mage or something?
#50 Mar 27 2017 at 8:39 AM Rating: Decent
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MCH has 3 AoEs not counting the AoE turret, but they don't get one of them until slightly later. MCH's AoE isn't that great due to being balanced around having a pet, it's not terrible but prior to level 60 it won't be good. Every bit helps though.

If the DPS is good, mass pulls may die slower than with AoE but it'll still die fairly quickly, but CC being in the..30s? I think (I only really did it in 1.x) DRK in particular is not setup to mass pull that dungeon, PLD and WAR barely are.

Edited, Mar 27th 2017 7:53am by Theonehio
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#51 Mar 29 2017 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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Here's another protip for the DPS:

Pay attention to your AoEs and how much they do relative to your single-target skills.

Let's say for example, you have an instant-cast AoE that does 100 damage to each enemy hit.
Let's say your usual instant-cast single-targets do 250 damage.

You are doing LESS DPS if you are hitting fewer than three mobs with your AoE, because you are hitting two mobs for 100 each (200 total) instead of one enemy for 250 damage.

Also, be aware of your TP usage. AoEs oftentimes have a high TP cost. All of that AoE damage won't mean much if you burn your TP into the ground and have to stand around auto-attacking because you're out of TP. So even if you did have exactly 3 mobs, I am not sure that doing 300 vs 250 is a worthy tradeoff when you are spending 2x the TP doing it. There's also the point to be made that the sooner one mob is dead, the sooner the tank is taking less damage. Killing 1 mob in 6-8 seconds is better than keeping all 4-5 mobs up for 20+ seconds in later dungeons when mobs actually start doing noticeable damage to tanks.

Had an ARC today who was AoEing groups of 4-5 mobs which is fine... but he wasn't paying attention because we'd get to 1 mob left and he was still spamming the AoE over and over and over again, wasting TP and doing a lot less DPS in the process.

Edited, Mar 29th 2017 5:41pm by Lyrailis
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