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It's crazy how many DPS players still don't know the basicsFollow

#27 Mar 22 2017 at 9:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
Callinon wrote:
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That and I hate when a tank grabs a group and then he keeps running (especially when he gives no warning that he's going to pull multiple groups). I can't cure him while he's running away from me, constantly running out of Cure range. And sometimes he ends up losing mobs to me because I have to pump heals into him because one, nay, two groups just aren't enough mobs to tackle at once.


Yeah, don't do that. If you see your tank is pulling more than one group at a time (a dead giveaway is when they pull something and then keep on going) just wait and let them handle it until they stop. THEN heal them.

Pulling multiple groups in max-level dungeons is an extremely common practice and you should expect it to happen more often than not. If you're trying to heal a tank while they're in the middle of doing that, you're going to cause a wipe because the tank is going to have to stop what he's doing to pull mobs off of you one by one.


So what you're saying is to just let the tank die, then.

When tanks do this, by the time they get the first group, I see their HP is down to like 80%. Okay... 2nd group, now they're dipping into the 60% region, and by the time they finally start flashing the third and final group, now they're down in the 30s.

I'm supposed to get a heal on them, a BIG heal that they're going to need, WITH a slow GCD and the 2-2.5s casting time, and somehow keep them alive from 30% health with three groups of mobs pounding on them?

*sigh*

Of course they're going to drop dead. I've seen tanks do this, and I always roll my eyes going "uh, why? You could see that you were getting badly hurt on the 2nd group, why did you keep running for the 3rd!?"

Tanks need to realize that our heals take 2 or so seconds to cast AND there's a 1.5s GCD to boot. The GCD is rolled into the casting time, yes, UNLESS it's an instant-cast spell. So even if I use Swiftcast, I STILL have to wait a minimum of 1.5s GCD to START casting the next 2-second Cure.

In Short: I don't like seeing 30% health tanks running up to a 3rd group of mobs to try to tank them, too. No way I can get their health back up in time. Seriously. Nor do I like spamming Cure 2/3 right from the start to try and beat the insane incoming damage. I had enough of that in WoW where that was the norm, where tanks went from 100% to 20% to 80% to 20% to 80% to 20% every couple seconds. It's NOT fun gameplay, and one of the things I love about XIV healing is that it doesn't have to be like this, you get actual TIME to make decisions on what to do.

Unless, of course, you get an overly impatient tank who just wants to pull pull pull even if he's in no condition to pull more mobs.



Yea I hear you there, a tank should be watching his health because sometimes they get hit harder or hesitated a second longer and took a few extra hits than the last time they ran the dungeon on the same pull.. It does not happen allot but when that tank hits 30 percent health it is hard to get them back up especially if the mobs are throwing out aoe,s and you have to move or better yet when there is that lag. Tanks see their health drop before you do it is common lag and then there is the lag from your heal. Healing would be so much easier if you had at least one ability that allowed you to heal while moving.




Edited, Mar 22nd 2017 11:31am by Nashred
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#28 Mar 22 2017 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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Yea I hear you there, a tank should be watching his health because sometimes they get hit harder or hesitated a second longer and took a few extra hits than the last time they ran the dungeon on the same pull.. It does not happen allot but when that tank hits 30 percent health it is hard to get them back up especially if the mobs are throwing out aoe,s and you have to move or better yet when there is that lag. Tanks see their health drop before you do it is common lag and then there is the lag from your heal. Healing would be so much easier if you had at least one ability that allowed you to heal while moving.


Well, there's Regen, but the thing I hate about Instant-Cast spells, is that they trigger the GCD.

No, what we need is a heal separate from the GCD... an emergency heal that can be cast while the GCD is going.

I mean, c'mon, tanks and DPS have attacks that can be used while on the GCD... any Counter-Attack (Haymaker, etc)... Spirits Within... Circle of Scorn, Provoke...

What do Healers have that can be used on GCD? Certainly nothing as a WHM that I can remember.

When people die (because of a lack of heals, that is), a large % of the time, it's because of the GCD. "IF only the GCD hadn't stopped me, I could have casted that Cure 1.5 sooner!"

Especially when it comes to trying to fit Regen in.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2017 11:39am by Lyrailis
#29 Mar 22 2017 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
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When tanks do this, by the time they get the first group, I see their HP is down to like 80%. Okay... 2nd group, now they're dipping into the 60% region, and by the time they finally start flashing the third and final group, now they're down in the 30s.


That shouldn't be happening. The tank should be using cooldowns to do a pull like that and should be staying far enough ahead of the crowd that he isn't taking a ton of extra hits anyway. If the tank is bad at this, then yeah it's going to suck and they shouldn't do it until they improve. But most tanks CAN do this correctly. The ones that can't are the exception.

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No, what we need is a heal separate from the GCD... an emergency heal that can be cast while the GCD is going.


Isn't Tetragrammaton off the GCD? I play AST when I heal and Essential Dignity is absolutely off the GCD. I believe SCH's Lustrate is as well.

And also it's a good time for Presence of Mind and massive Cure 2 bombing until the nonsense is under control. Your cooldowns are there to be used, don't horde them.

EDIT: Btw if you want a quick way to tell whether or not something is on or off the GCD, look at the type. A spell or weaponskill is on-GCD. An ability is off-GCD.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2017 10:49am by Callinon
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#30 Mar 22 2017 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Speaking of lag I do not think many people realize How bad it is in this game and how much it really can affect it. We also have a excellent connection of like 35mbps down and pretty good up.

We sit next to each other and you can see it. I look on my screen when we are on chocos and I look like i am 6 lengths ahead on mine and on hers she looks to be 6 lengths ahead. I can hit jump and watch my character jump on my screen and land and turn to hers and just see my character starts to jump. Sometimes Tesee looks like she is standing in a aoe and I tell her to move but she is already out.

Now apply that to healing. Tank sees his health hit 30 percent how long does it take for you to see it on your screen? Now you throw a heal and how long does it take for him to see it?

You see it in FFXI to but not as bad.
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#31 Mar 22 2017 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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Now apply that to healing. Tank sees his health hit 30 percent how long does it take for you to see it on your screen? Now you throw a heal and how long does it take for him to see it?


You'll both see that change in health at roughly the same time.

What you described above with the chocobo running is subject to the client-server relationship. Where your client thinks you're further ahead than the server does. The change in HP isn't subject to this because the server is handling everything. Your client isn't calculating changes in HP, the server is doing that and reporting it to you.
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#32 Mar 22 2017 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Because you don't save any time if you mis-judge the group and end up causing a wipe? Any time you could have saved is wasted and everybody's mood immediately becomes sour if an early-dungeon wipe occurs.


The vast majority of my DF groups handle these pulls with no problems. So either the playerbase is overwhelmingly capable, or I'm just a rockstar tank. Maybe both. :)

If we happen to wipe, no big deal. But that hardly ever happens.... I can't even remember the last time that happened to me. If we wipe, it's usually because the healer does something stupid and dies in a boss fight.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2017 9:06am by Thayos
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#33 Mar 22 2017 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
The vast majority of my DF groups handle these pulls with no problems. So either the playerbase is overwhelmingly capable, or I'm just a rockstar tank. Maybe both. :)

It's probably both. As we get farther into a raid cycle everyone has better gear and it gets easier for random people to pull bigger groups.

Really though, I'm with Lyra on this. As a healer, I can't count the number of times I've see tanks over pull and die 30 seconds into a dungeon (sometimes not even waiting for Protect and stuff.) Just because one time you saw someone pull the whole room at once doesn't mean that YOU can do it in your crappy gear. Even if you can handle it there's no guarantee that the healer or DPS can keep up. I'm a good healer, but I'm not good enough to carry a group all by myself.

I'm fine with big pulls and speed runs if the group can handle it, but take it slow for the first few pulls to find out.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2017 12:59pm by Karlina
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#34 Mar 22 2017 at 1:41 PM Rating: Excellent
I do take it slow during the first week of a new patch, and I always wait for buffs and make sure nobody is afk. I will also burn all my CDs and Hallowed to get through that first pull, then slow down if the pt isnt up to it... but that is rare.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2017 12:51pm by Thayos
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#35 Mar 22 2017 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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I'm fine with big pulls and speed runs if the group can handle it, but take it slow for the first few pulls to find out.


^^
This.

It wouldn't kill you gogogogogogogo people to take one or two pulls slow to make sure people can handle it. Seriously.
#36 Mar 22 2017 at 6:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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It wouldn't kill you gogogogogogogo people to take one or two pulls slow to make sure people can handle it. Seriously.


But you don't really know until you do it. So why not just get to the good stuff?

Plus, small pulls are boooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrriinnnnnnng. Dealing with large pulls actually makes me work for it sometimes.
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#37 Mar 22 2017 at 7:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I always pull big first to gauge the strength of the group. If they struggle with it then I'll take it slower.
#38 Mar 22 2017 at 7:52 PM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
I always pull big first to gauge the strength of the group. If they struggle with it then I'll take it slower.


That's how most tanks handle it.

Though I would suggest that tanks learn to pay attention of Baelsar's Wall specifically to that first set of skyarmors. If one of them tethers the healer STOP and kill the pack. Don't keep going. Because your healer is going to just die. And that's going to suck for everyone.
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#39 Mar 22 2017 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
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Hm. I wonder if the difference of opinion on caution vs aggression is part of what makes some people gravitate towards one role or the other in the first place. I've honestly never thought about it that way before.

I also wonder if maybe it's a blame thing. If a group is going too slow, people always blame the tank. If someone dies, people always blame the healer. Even if it's not their fault, people usually blame them. That could be part of why tanks like to start with bigger pulls while healers prefer smaller ones.
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#40 Mar 22 2017 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
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I dunno, I play both tank and heal... though I don't particularly like big pulls either, even while I'm playing a tank.

If someone has gripes about how slow we're going, well... you either put up with it, or you wait the 5-10 minutes to find another tank. Which is more important? That 1-2 min faster clear or the 10 minutes waiting for another tank to arrive? lol.

Thayos wrote:
But you don't really know until you do it. So why not just get to the good stuff?


*shrugs* I can't say risking wasted time due to death is "good stuff", to be honest. I see it as pointless risk. I just wanna get through the dungeon. No need for flashy or show-off stuff. A plain and clean run is good, kthx.

Quote:
Plus, small pulls are boooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrriinnnnnnng. Dealing with large pulls actually makes me work for it sometimes.


Better boring than having people get into foul moods because of deaths. I'd rather get through a dungeon with 0 deaths than having people pointing fingers at each other after a wipe when someone couldn't handle it, or some bad luck happened or what-not.


Edited, Mar 22nd 2017 10:23pm by Lyrailis
#41 Mar 23 2017 at 12:11 AM Rating: Excellent
Like I said though, death really isn't an issue on my watch. And when people do die, it isn't usually from pulls.
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#42 Mar 23 2017 at 6:20 AM Rating: Decent
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More like saving 10-15 minutes when done right. Sounds like you're being overly cautious.
#43 Mar 23 2017 at 7:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Last night I get the wall for duty finder expert. This is the one that most tanks actually fail. There are those mobs that attach to someone right in the beginning. He did nothing to get them off of them and drained all my mp and abilities and down we went. He tried it a second time and none of my timers were up and by the time he went around the second corner his health was sunder 30 percent, he left then. Next tank same pull no issues. smooth run all the way.
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#44 Mar 23 2017 at 7:55 AM Rating: Good
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He did nothing to get them off of them and drained all my mp and abilities and down we went.


Those skyarmors don't have threat tables. They just tether to someone and shoot them until they die or the armor does. If they tether a tank or a dps it isn't usually that big a deal. If they grab the healer though it's a problem because their shots will interrupt casting and the healer will fall down.
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#45 Mar 25 2017 at 11:04 AM Rating: Default
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BrokenFox wrote:
I'm talking Blizzard 3 spammer in Dun Scaith types of players. XIV could really use some kind of "advanced" dungeon queue/roulette. Can't gain access until you pass a simple DPS skill check. Make it synced too, so you can't just overgear it. When you blast people with "YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED IN CAUSE YOU'RE DOING TERRIBLE" that tends to motivate them to do better.

Edited, Mar 13th 2017 2:38pm by BrokenFox


Yeah, sadly certain sects of players really hate if you try to close off content to them unless they can pass a test. Even then with FFXIV if they pass the test it doesn't mean much because you typically have a few skilled players/alliance group that can carry the entire run.

Which is a problem with both players and current content design.

Lyrailis wrote:
I dunno, I play both tank and heal... though I don't particularly like big pulls either, even while I'm playing a tank.

If someone has gripes about how slow we're going, well... you either put up with it, or you wait the 5-10 minutes to find another tank. Which is more important? That 1-2 min faster clear or the 10 minutes waiting for another tank to arrive? lol.
Edited, Mar 22nd 2017 10:23pm by Lyrailis



Let's put it this way:

It's never as insignificant as "1-2 minute faster clear", especially with current content design if your group is actually made up of people who were geared from prior patch or even this patch, it's more along the lines of 18-24+ minutes saved. Especially the later into the update cycle it is, the more time is saved. To some people it's "no big deal" but no one wants to do the same hallway dungeon for longer than they need to.

For example you can clear Dun Scaith within 20 -25 minutes if everyone is on their **** and actually geared. Compare that to the all too typical 70-90 minute runs due to people not knowing their rotation or how to do mechanics, even after you explain it and they see it 4-8 times after continual wipes.

Which would you prefer? Clearing it as fast as you can so you can get on with your life, or make that the ONLY content you run in a day on limited time?



Edited, Mar 25th 2017 10:11am by Theonehio
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#46 Mar 25 2017 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe SE should focus on doing less trash, then, or something? Honestly I don't know about the Lv60 HW content as I've yet to get there, but I see the mentality being carried on down to the older dungeons that were only 30 min affairs and I'm like "seriously, dude, it's freaking (insert Lv20-30 dungeon here)" .

If Dun Scaith takes 60+ minutes because you're not chain-pulling multiple groups, then that sounds like a bad design decision, sounds like they put too many "trash mobs" in the dungeon, or they made the dungeon longer than it needs to be. Especially if it is breeding the "gotta gogogogogo" behavior in players.

THEN, players who are used to Dun Scaith end up in some lowbie dungeon and they carry the mentality over, because they can't stand to not go fast.

It is starting to sound like SE should have just kept it to small and short dungeons instead of trying to get too lengthy with them.

Edited, Mar 25th 2017 2:32pm by Lyrailis
#47 Mar 25 2017 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe SE should focus on doing less trash, then, or something? Honestly I don't know about the Lv60 HW content as I've yet to get there, but I see the mentality being carried on down to the older dungeons that were only 30 min affairs and I'm like "seriously, dude, it's freaking (insert Lv20-30 dungeon here)" .


In a leveling dungeon, I might chain one pack into another as the first one gets close to death. But I rarely multi-pull in those.

Quote:
If Dun Scaith takes 60+ minutes because you're not chain-pulling multiple groups, then that sounds like a bad design decision, sounds like they put too many "trash mobs" in the dungeon, or they made the dungeon longer than it needs to be. Especially if it is breeding the "gotta gogogogogo" behavior in players.


You can't chain trash in Dun Scaith. But your group can fail pretty hard if they don't have their act together on the bosses. The bosses are like 10-15 minute fights with multiple opportunities to have a very bad day.
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#48 Mar 25 2017 at 1:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
Maybe SE should focus on doing less trash, then, or something? Honestly I don't know about the Lv60 HW content as I've yet to get there, but I see the mentality being carried on down to the older dungeons that were only 30 min affairs and I'm like "seriously, dude, it's freaking (insert Lv20-30 dungeon here)" .


They did more barriers so you can't "pull full dungeon" as a counter measure to early 2.0 shenanigans. The biggest issue is the fact people think "high ilvl = can ignore and eat every mechanic and pull whole dungeon even in a level 13 dungeon!"

There's quite a lot SE has to change in order to change player mentality tbh lol.
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#49 Mar 27 2017 at 5:15 AM Rating: Good
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Just had a DRK try to overpull in Cutter's Cry, lol.

The first two rooms, you can't overpull so we didn't know anything was going to go wrong, as the tank seemed competent enough. Then, after the first boss, well, first thing he does, is grab one group and then go high-tailing it over to the other group.

This gets him killed, and leaves me to tank one mob and the MCH to start running around trying to kite them with AoEs until the healer can rez the tank up in-between trying to keep us alive. We pull through, but barely.

We get through that room, and then the very next room, he does the same stupid thing AGAIN. He pulls one group and keeps on runnin', only this time he dies and the healer dies very soon afterward because he just can't handle 5-6 mobs beating on him. I'm like "really? again?" and the healer grumbled something too as we waste a good 2-3 minutes rezzing back up and running back.

I dunno about MCH, but a NIN (me) doesn't have a lot of AoEs at Lv40... I got..... Katon. That's it. Well, I think there's also that AoE knife throw or whatever it is... that does jack all for actual damage. Pulling multiple groups only works when you've got nice AoE... you know, like... a Black Mage or something?
#50 Mar 27 2017 at 8:39 AM Rating: Decent
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MCH has 3 AoEs not counting the AoE turret, but they don't get one of them until slightly later. MCH's AoE isn't that great due to being balanced around having a pet, it's not terrible but prior to level 60 it won't be good. Every bit helps though.

If the DPS is good, mass pulls may die slower than with AoE but it'll still die fairly quickly, but CC being in the..30s? I think (I only really did it in 1.x) DRK in particular is not setup to mass pull that dungeon, PLD and WAR barely are.

Edited, Mar 27th 2017 7:53am by Theonehio
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#51 Mar 29 2017 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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Here's another protip for the DPS:

Pay attention to your AoEs and how much they do relative to your single-target skills.

Let's say for example, you have an instant-cast AoE that does 100 damage to each enemy hit.
Let's say your usual instant-cast single-targets do 250 damage.

You are doing LESS DPS if you are hitting fewer than three mobs with your AoE, because you are hitting two mobs for 100 each (200 total) instead of one enemy for 250 damage.

Also, be aware of your TP usage. AoEs oftentimes have a high TP cost. All of that AoE damage won't mean much if you burn your TP into the ground and have to stand around auto-attacking because you're out of TP. So even if you did have exactly 3 mobs, I am not sure that doing 300 vs 250 is a worthy tradeoff when you are spending 2x the TP doing it. There's also the point to be made that the sooner one mob is dead, the sooner the tank is taking less damage. Killing 1 mob in 6-8 seconds is better than keeping all 4-5 mobs up for 20+ seconds in later dungeons when mobs actually start doing noticeable damage to tanks.

Had an ARC today who was AoEing groups of 4-5 mobs which is fine... but he wasn't paying attention because we'd get to 1 mob left and he was still spamming the AoE over and over and over again, wasting TP and doing a lot less DPS in the process.

Edited, Mar 29th 2017 5:41pm by Lyrailis
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