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I dont like the sound of thisFollow

#1 Mar 27 2017 at 9:48 AM Rating: Default
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"Here’s some stuff worth knowing: The team is happy with the Anima Weapon system (gradually upgrading one piece of gear) and they’re looking towards doing something similar in Stormblood
Read more at http://www.mmorpg.com/final-fantasy-xiv/columns/patch-356-preview-plus-naoki-yoshida-on-stormblood-tanking-1000011638#1YGIJwsMG5i2u3V0.99"


I dont like the sound of that didnt they say before SB relic eould have an area dedicated for just that with NMs and everything instead of just recycling old contwnt like previous relics?

Edited, Mar 27th 2017 10:49am by DuoMaxwellxx
#2 Mar 27 2017 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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Those two statements are not mutually exclusive if you just stand back and read them without projecting your biases all over them.

They like the idea of building a weapon over the course of an expansion AND they're thinking of dedicating an area (probably Eureka) to relic building. That probably means that this area will have some large part to play in a few of the upgrade steps.
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#3 Mar 27 2017 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Based on history we can know what will happen though, especially with Yoshida's defining: "Nothing will change" statement. Even recently he stated that it won't be until 4.1/4.2 will we see "brand new never before seen content", similar statement made with Heavensward prior to release.

They also stated that Heavenswards relics will be different from ARR relics which they stated would be different from 1.2x relics. So using proven history, while they like the system, there's a 99% chance it'll be exactly the same under a different skin, similar to 3.x relics are the same as 2.x relics under a different skin, some steps being actually worse than 2.x.

In an earlier (2016) interview they said Eureka will be for building Relics and POTENTIALLY relic armor, but with the recent (early march 2017) interview of saying that they're further simplifying stats and using Diadem 2.0 feedback and usage as a basis for Eureka, it's not looking good because the ONLY deciding factor on how this relic will go is based on how they handle 4.x ilvl progression.

So while we never got the "Quest based relic progression instead of grind based zodiac prorgression" as promised, it's not really a bad thing to be skeptical.

For example, using history, we can determine that Eureka will have monster spawning similar to Diadem which is akin to Hunts and there will be "secrets" in order to trigger specific events that may be part of the relic progression, similar to how we have to spawn the Unicorn fate in Diadem, which translating that into an "NM", you'll have to trigger that NM that shows up ever x hour as exampled in an interview. I mean, the fact Diadem 2.0's relaunch was largely "MAKE PEOPLE FATE GRIND!" guess which relic system focused on FATEs?

(Hint: Both.)

As I've always said though, yoshida says a lot of things.
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#4 Mar 27 2017 at 11:35 AM Rating: Excellent
Like Callinon said, no reason why both can't be true. The relic process is what it is though. Eureka or not, expect a grind.



Edited, Mar 27th 2017 10:36am by Thayos
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#5 Mar 27 2017 at 11:35 AM Rating: Excellent
Btw, just got my i270 pld relic!

Edited, Mar 27th 2017 10:36am by Thayos
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#6 Mar 27 2017 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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More like why are they talking about "how happy" they are with it like it was something new they just tested and hadnt done once before already also they stated they got the complaints about relic being rehasing of old content thus eureka would be specifically for relic and even if it wasnt id expect something COMPLETELY different from what weve been doing
#7 Mar 27 2017 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Double post

Edited, Mar 27th 2017 2:18pm by DuoMaxwellxx
#8 Mar 27 2017 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Like Callinon said, no reason why both can't be true. The relic process is what it is though. Eureka or not, expect a grind.



Edited, Mar 27th 2017 10:36am by Thayos


Grind is fine as long as the activities are varied enough to make it fun. I mean FFXI relic was a grind too. But I never had to do the same dungeon 167 times to complete it. Not to mention I could only enter dynamis once every 3 days so doing it twice a week wasnt often enough to feel like a chore as opposed to doing it back to back 20+ times
#9 Mar 27 2017 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Like Callinon said, no reason why both can't be true. The relic process is what it is though. Eureka or not, expect a grind.



Edited, Mar 27th 2017 10:36am by Thayos


Grind is fine as long as the activities are varied enough to make it fun. I mean FFXI relic was a grind too. But I never had to do the same dungeon 167 times to complete it. Not to mention I could only enter dynamis once every 3 days so doing it twice a week wasnt often enough to feel like a chore as opposed to doing it back to back 20+ times


Nothing forces you to do it 20 times back to back to back, other than instant gratification and a lack of self-control.

Time Gates do not automatically make things interesting, it just makes it take longer to complete with less actual content to complete. Time Gates exist only because they know players have little to no self control when it comes to instant gratification, they gotta have it NOW NOW NOW NOW and they can't pace themselves, and they'll burn out and complete all the content ASAP and then complain endlessly that there's nothing left to do.

That's why we have time gates.
#10 Mar 27 2017 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
I have enjoyed the time spent playing to get my relic!
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#11 Mar 27 2017 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
I have enjoyed the time spent playing to get my relic!

Gah the double posting.

Edited, Mar 27th 2017 1:07pm by Thayos
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#12 Mar 27 2017 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
More like why are they talking about "how happy" they are with it like it was something new they just tested and hadnt done once before already also they stated they got the complaints about relic being rehasing of old content thus eureka would be specifically for relic and even if it wasnt id expect something COMPLETELY different from what weve been doing


They can't be happy with something they've done twice? It stands to reason they were pretty happy with the way the 2.x Zodiac weapon worked given the 3.x Anima weapon line was pretty similar. Though I could've done with fewer tomestone grinds myself.

I expect the 4.x relic line to be similar in that it'll be doing some kind of long content grind that's relatively easy compared to savage raiding but takes a great deal more time. If they want to involve Eureka in that, then I want to see HOW they involve it before I decide whether I like it or not.

If you're expecting something completely different, you're intentionally setting yourself up for disappointment and future complaining.

DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Like Callinon said, no reason why both can't be true. The relic process is what it is though. Eureka or not, expect a grind.



Edited, Mar 27th 2017 10:36am by Thayos


Grind is fine as long as the activities are varied enough to make it fun. I mean FFXI relic was a grind too. But I never had to do the same dungeon 167 times to complete it. Not to mention I could only enter dynamis once every 3 days so doing it twice a week wasnt often enough to feel like a chore as opposed to doing it back to back 20+ times


You....what? The FFXI relic was a solid grind of either Dynamis for currency or gil farming to buy currency. That's all it was. There were a couple of fights sprinkled into your grinding, but it was a solid grind wall gated by weekly lockouts. In what way was that not running the same content over and over again?

The only time I ever did a zodiac or anima step in anything that could be described as "back to back 20+ times" was light farming, and in that case we're talking about repeating a fight that takes 2 and a half minutes a bunch of times for a 2 hour window. And then you stop for a while. I guess it's a matter of opinion, but that never really bothered me that much because the individual fights don't take all that long. Actually it helped me learn to optimize my NIN rotation back in 2.x grinding Garudas.
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#13 Mar 27 2017 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
You....what? The FFXI relic was a solid grind of either Dynamis for currency or gil farming to buy currency. That's all it was. There were a couple of fights sprinkled into your grinding, but it was a solid grind wall gated by weekly lockouts. In what way was that not running the same content over and over again?


I know, right?

There was what.. Sandy, Windy, Bastok, Jeuno, and the 2 Northlands Zones... I don't get how doing them every week, the same 6 Dynamis Zones was somehow not "doing the same dungeon over and over" because it freaking was.

Oh, and the ridiculous gil-sink if you decided to buy any of that currency you needed, lol.

Just blows my mind that someone thinks that was better than what XIV has. Oi.

I know 'to each their own' and all but yeesh. I mean, if someone wanted to eat roadkill, I suppose that's their prerogative but that doesn't mean I'm not going to puke if I see someone doing it.
#14 Mar 27 2017 at 3:24 PM Rating: Default
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Lyrailis wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Like Callinon said, no reason why both can't be true. The relic process is what it is though. Eureka or not, expect a grind.



Edited, Mar 27th 2017 10:36am by Thayos


Grind is fine as long as the activities are varied enough to make it fun. I mean FFXI relic was a grind too. But I never had to do the same dungeon 167 times to complete it. Not to mention I could only enter dynamis once every 3 days so doing it twice a week wasnt often enough to feel like a chore as opposed to doing it back to back 20+ times


Nothing forces you to do it 20 times back to back to back, other than instant gratification and a lack of self-control.

Time Gates do not automatically make things interesting, it just makes it take longer to complete with less actual content to complete. Time Gates exist only because they know players have little to no self control when it comes to instant gratification, they gotta have it NOW NOW NOW NOW and they can't pace themselves, and they'll burn out and complete all the content ASAP and then complain endlessly that there's nothing left to do.

That's why we have time gates.


Um last I checked instant gratification means getting something with little to no effort... i.e EVERYTHING in WoW compared to ANYTHING in FFXI pre 2013. I wouldnt call doing the same dungeon 100+ times instant gratification by any means. As for what "forces" you do it back to back. Its called not wanting to take so long doing it that by the time YOU finally got it everyone and their mama has had it for weeks/months an its "old news" now. So yeah I could run a dungeon once a day but at that rate itll take 3 months and a new one will be out lol. If they made the content grindy or hard enough that only a few ppl WOULD do it then you wouldnt feel obligated to get it "soon" as long as you got it at all cause youd know youre one of the few ppl that have it... i.e relic in FFXI was still "cool to get that guy to get it" even if you achieved it long after it was already 5 years old.


And no we have time gates because SE has an issue with players with more time being able to get stuff faster than player with little/les time to play. So they penalize those of us who can play all day to "balance" things for those who cant
#15 Mar 27 2017 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
More like why are they talking about "how happy" they are with it like it was something new they just tested and hadnt done once before already also they stated they got the complaints about relic being rehasing of old content thus eureka would be specifically for relic and even if it wasnt id expect something COMPLETELY different from what weve been doing


They can't be happy with something they've done twice? It stands to reason they were pretty happy with the way the 2.x Zodiac weapon worked given the 3.x Anima weapon line was pretty similar. Though I could've done with fewer tomestone grinds myself.

I expect the 4.x relic line to be similar in that it'll be doing some kind of long content grind that's relatively easy compared to savage raiding but takes a great deal more time. If they want to involve Eureka in that, then I want to see HOW they involve it before I decide whether I like it or not.

If you're expecting something completely different, you're intentionally setting yourself up for disappointment and future complaining.

DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Like Callinon said, no reason why both can't be true. The relic process is what it is though. Eureka or not, expect a grind.



Edited, Mar 27th 2017 10:36am by Thayos


Grind is fine as long as the activities are varied enough to make it fun. I mean FFXI relic was a grind too. But I never had to do the same dungeon 167 times to complete it. Not to mention I could only enter dynamis once every 3 days so doing it twice a week wasnt often enough to feel like a chore as opposed to doing it back to back 20+ times


You....what? The FFXI relic was a solid grind of either Dynamis for currency or gil farming to buy currency. That's all it was. There were a couple of fights sprinkled into your grinding, but it was a solid grind wall gated by weekly lockouts. In what way was that not running the same content over and over again?

The only time I ever did a zodiac or anima step in anything that could be described as "back to back 20+ times" was light farming, and in that case we're talking about repeating a fight that takes 2 and a half minutes a bunch of times for a 2 hour window. And then you stop for a while. I guess it's a matter of opinion, but that never really bothered me that much because the individual fights don't take all that long. Actually it helped me learn to optimize my NIN rotation back in 2.x grinding Garudas.



SO riding the samedungeon 100 times for tomes wasnt just as bad as light farming? Yes Dyanmis was just currency grinding but with as much currency that dropped I can assure you didnt do Dynamis 100 time s(or even close to it) to get the currency you needed especially since you could buy it too.

They could easily make Rwelic a grind but make it like a scanveger hunt.. for example insyead of:

farm teh same dungeon a million times for ight
Then go get this item which you need lore for thats gonna couase you to grind a dugeon 50 times for it
Now go get this OTHER item that also requireslore now you have to griding that SAMe dungeon again 50 MORE times


They can do this:

SO find the piece of the relic weapon
Then kill off all the enemies on this list
Now go complete these dungeons one time each
Now go kill these primals
Now go "assassinate" thee 5 people which are found in these FATES
throw in a little tomestone farming here
now find these map locations and get/fight whats there
now go hunt and kill these rare NMs that might pop every few hours or as long as every 24 hours
throw in a little light farming here
Now go farm these pop items to from normal mobs, fates and even dungeons and use the op items to spawn and kill the following things in the following area


Thats a huge list that can still take awhile but its varied enough that its fun and Im not doing the same two things
#16 Mar 27 2017 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
SO riding the samedungeon 100 times for tomes wasnt just as bad as light farming?


Yeah, it wasn't. A dungeon takes half an hour minimum if your group is a bunch of rockstars. A trial for light takes 2-3 minutes with an average group of PF people. Not even close to the same thing. Furthermore, one dungeon MIGHT not be enough. For instance when doing the umbrite step I made it a point to farm 1 umbrite per day (took me about 2.5 months to complete the step) so that I didn't burn myself out running dungeons constantly. But even with that limitation on, getting to some multiple of 300 lore sometimes did require multiple runs in a day to do. So playing casually, it took quite a while.

I believe I mentioned in my comments above that I could've done with fewer tomestone grinds. It was overused for the Anima series, epitomized by umbrites. Even the step after that (singing clusters) which was essentially just MOAR LOAR again had daily and weekly quests associated with it. I got that done MUCH faster. Only about 2 weeks to complete that step and I didn't even end up buying all that many clusters with lore.

Quote:
They can do this:

SO find the piece of the relic weapon
Then kill off all the enemies on this list
Now go complete these dungeons one time each
Now go kill these primals
Now go "assassinate" thee 5 people which are found in these FATES
throw in a little tomestone farming here
now find these map locations and get/fight whats there
now go hunt and kill these rare NMs that might pop every few hours or as long as every 24 hours
throw in a little light farming here
Now go farm these pop items to from normal mobs, fates and even dungeons and use the op items to spawn and kill the following things in the following area


Thats a huge list that can still take awhile but its varied enough that its fun and Im not doing the same two things


Yeah that's true. That reminds me of the animus books from the zodiac weapon series, which was my favorite step in that chain because it let you vary your content consumption and have guaranteed progress over a period of time not reliant on rng. The problem with something like that though is that it has to take long enough. The relic weapon has to take a long time. That's what it's for. It's a substitute for savage raiding. You get an equivalent weapon, but you're substituting time investment for player skill and/or group management. The relic weapon HAS to take a long time to do. Even with the animus books, the roadblock wasn't the book content, it was affording the books which cost a huge pile of tomestones each. So there's always going to be something. It's always going to be a grind. It has to be.
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#17 Mar 27 2017 at 4:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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SO riding the samedungeon 100 times


Why would you do the same dungeon over and over again for a FFXIV relic when you can often do numerous things? That's just silly... but if that's what you're into, then more power to you.
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#18 Mar 27 2017 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
SO riding the samedungeon 100 times


Why would you do the same dungeon over and over again for a FFXIV relic when you can often do numerous things? That's just silly... but if that's what you're into, then more power to you.


The quest forces you to and it's the same reason people spam AS1 for the light phase. You can do "numerous things" or you can do the one efficient thing. Maybe it's different on your DC, but at least on Aether where I did a relic for my alt, they seem to spam ARF/AS1/Ravana for a few reasons.

It's why I've always said there's virtually 0 reason to force players into obsolete content for new content/relic weapon, which is why it's quite easy to know how 4.x relic will go too.

As in I guarantee they'll "discover" items in 2.x/3.x dungeon which means spamming older dungeons again or running obsolete content for a once a week item, or spamming the most efficient older dungeon for tomes for the same item. You can do numerous things but players like efficiency, even casual players, as most of the game is designed for casual play, afterall.
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#19 Mar 27 2017 at 4:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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The quest forces you to and it's the same reason people spam AS1 for the light phase.


This is a BS response. It's also wrong. The bonus moved around to all kinds of things... AS1, PvP, different level 60 dungeons, different 24-man raids... plus, you get light for everything, even if it's not under a bonus. So why just spam one thing, especially if you're not having fun? That's just ridiculous.

You play a game to have fun, right? Well, guess which one of us had more fun working on his/her relic? Smiley: smile

So I'd say I'm doing it right. Can you honestly say the same?

Edited, Mar 27th 2017 3:52pm by Thayos
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#20 Mar 27 2017 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

Um last I checked instant gratification means getting something with little to no effort... i.e EVERYTHING in WoW compared to ANYTHING in FFXI pre 2013.


Uh, you're wrong.

Instant Gratification is when you want something, but you want it RIGHT NOW. You don't care what it takes, you just want it NOW.

IRL, when you go to the store and you see that shiny... let's say a brand new TV and you look at that TV, but it's more expensive than you can afford.

One person will go "I'll ask for some overtime over the next couple weeks and I'll make me some extra money and buy that TV with my overtime pay."

The second person goes "I WANT IT NOW!" And whips out a Credit Card so he can have that TV right now, regardless of the fact he can't afford it. That's instant gratification. The "I WANT IT NOW!" mentality.

Usually, it doesn't pay off in the long run.

When applied to an MMORPG, it's the players who MUST consume the content AS FAST AS THEY CAN and the only thing stopping them is Time Gates, such as lockouts. That's why lockouts exist, because if they did not, you know that people would be raiding 24/7 until they got all their drops and then they would sit and complain that the game is lacking content or some dumb BS after they full-cleared the raid in 2 days.

Quote:
I wouldnt call doing the same dungeon 100+ times instant gratification by any means.


I never said it was.

Quote:
As for what "forces" you do it back to back. Its called not wanting to take so long doing it that by the time YOU finally got it everyone and their mama has had it for weeks/months an its "old news" now.


Yup. "I GOTTA HAVE IT NOW!" Mentality.

Who flippin' cares who else has it right now? Seriously. You're going to slave away doing some "unfun" activity over and over again to get it as fast as you can... and then what are you going to do once you have it? Strut around in town showing off that thing that several other people got, too? Pixels on a screen?

Seriously. This is a game. Progression is in this game so that people can have fun working towards making their character better. If you focus on the progression but yet somehow miss the journey there, that's when the game becomes unfun. That's why people like you are constantly whining about such stuff. You forgot this is a GAME. You forgot you're supposed to be having FUN.

You've forgotten that amidst all the "GOTTA HAVE IT NOW!" shinies.

See, I'm not like that. I haven't even been to HW yet. Am I concerned about powering through HW to get to the current Raid and 270 relics? No. In fact, I really couldn't care less about the 270 relics or whatever else is at endgame right now. The only thing I will say is that I would like to be Stormblood-Ready by June. Or at least something close to that, because yes I would like to see the areas where everybody else is.

As far as loot and getting the best stuff possible? No. I want to see the sights. I want to have fun doing a little crafting, exploring. I wanna throw on a swimsuit and swim around in the beautiful waters that I saw in the trailers.

Getting loot is fun, but yet getting loot should be a byproduct of the activity that gives said loot. The focus is supposed to be on doing the raids, fighting the bosses. You get rewarded for doing this, and it's great to earn a reward. But if you focus on the reward, you tend to forget that working towards the reward is supposed to be fun, too.

Quote:
So yeah I could run a dungeon once a day but at that rate itll take 3 months and a new one will be out lol. If they made the content grindy or hard enough that only a few ppl WOULD do it then you wouldnt feel obligated to get it "soon" as long as you got it at all cause youd know youre one of the few ppl that have it... i.e relic in FFXI was still "cool to get that guy to get it" even if you achieved it long after it was already 5 years old.


There's a difference between 1 a day and 20 a day. If one a day takes you 3 months... okay, then do 2-3 a day and you've shaved it down to 2-4 weeks.

20 times a day is just ludicrous.

Quote:
And no we have time gates because SE has an issue with players with more time being able to get stuff faster than player with little/les time to play. So they penalize those of us who can play all day to "balance" things for those who cant


They don't want players whining about a lack of content/"nothing to do" because they hungrily wolfed down what was put in front of them like a rabid starving dog that hasn't eaten in 10 years.

I swear, if we compared this behavior of MMORPG players like you to eating, you'd be 500lbs because you'd be constantly gobbling down food and then complaining that we're not giving you enough food, fast enough.

At what point does the lust for better gear end? That's the problem: it doesn't. You've forgotten about the journey there. You've forgotten what progression in a game is really supposed to be about.
#21 Mar 27 2017 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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At what point does the lust for better gear end? That's the problem: it doesn't. You've forgotten about the journey there. You've forgotten what progression in a game is really supposed to be about.


Especially THIS game. When SE announced it would rebuild XIV and launch it as a new game, Yoshi-P made clear this was going to be a casual-friendly game that could a) be played alongside another MMO and b) not dominate a person's schedule.

That is what XIV is. That is what the devs always said this game would be. None of this is a surprise. This is not the kind of MMORPG that's meant to be played with a hardcore mentality.

Edited, Mar 27th 2017 5:44pm by Thayos
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#22 Mar 27 2017 at 6:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
At what point does the lust for better gear end? That's the problem: it doesn't. You've forgotten about the journey there. You've forgotten what progression in a game is really supposed to be about.


Especially THIS game. When SE announced it would rebuild XIV and launch it as a new game, Yoshi-P made clear this was going to be a casual-friendly game that could a) be played alongside another MMO and b) not dominate a person's schedule.

That is what XIV is. That is what the devs always said this game would be. None of this is a surprise. This is not the kind of MMORPG that's meant to be played with a hardcore mentality.

Edited, Mar 27th 2017 5:44pm by Thayos


These are among the reasons why I like this game more than I liked WoW.

They play similar gameplay-wise, but overall design... IMO, XIV wins hands-down.

1). No stupid forced PvP or PvP griefing. PvP is kept on a tight leash in this game. And that's awesome. Yes, I know, WoW got rid of accidental flagging right at the end of Mists, not too long before I quit, but still. That didn't stop people from trying to goad you into a fight.
2). Far better community. I don't see even 1% of the stupid crap I'd see in WoW. The worst XIV has that I've seen, is gilseller shouts, lol. Easily ignored.
3). Smaller Groups. I hated waiting on a 25-man raid in WoW to be put together.
4). All dungeons are still relevant, even at max level, including some Full Party content.
5). The ability to change class instead of needing one character for every class, that you gotta repeat so much crap on.
6). The ability to have all crafts on one character.

And of course, the things that Thayos mentioned above, too. I used to hate the fact that it was "Get a Raiding Guild or stop as soon as you hit max level" crap that WoW was. Once you hit max level, and did a few Heroic Dungeons..... you were done without a raiding guild. There was pretty much nothing else to do other than LFR which was severely nerfed in both difficulty and reward, to the point it wasn't even worth doing in Warlords.

EDIT: There was one awesome exception: Timeless Isle. Sadly, too many people whined endlessly about it and it doesn't seem like they ever brought the idea back. Ah well, I quit WoW anyways. XIV's got more than enough for me to have fun with.

Edited, Mar 27th 2017 8:57pm by Lyrailis
#23 Mar 27 2017 at 6:59 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
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The quest forces you to and it's the same reason people spam AS1 for the light phase.


This is a BS response. It's also wrong.


Yep, so it's different for your DC then.

Quote:
The bonus moved around to all kinds of things


Much like Zodiac days - people still stuck to what was quicker because having a bonus is nice, however extremely quick runs of x is still an efficient method. When something lined up well, for example Garuda, that's when it goes into overdrive. The problem seems to be because of how YOU personally did it, you feel it's wrong, much like everything anything else says that doesn't fall in line with your beliefs too.

Quote:
ou play a game to have fun, right? Well, guess which one of us had more fun working on his/her relic?


Fun is subjective.

Quote:
So I'd say I'm doing it right. Can you honestly say the same?


Therein lies the problem - "your way" is the right way, everyone else is wrong, similar to what you accuse others of thinking.
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#24 Mar 27 2017 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
Therein lies the problem - "your way" is the right way, everyone else is wrong, similar to what you accuse others of thinking.


Obviously, if people are complaining about the grind, then they are simply not having fun. So yes, I think Thayos is right. He is having fun on the actual journey to getting his relic done. The people who are spamming the same dungeons repeatedly and then whining about the grind are not actually having fun. If they were having fun, they wouldn't be complaining about the grind.

They are only doing it because they want the shiny, not because they are having fun getting the shiny which goes back to what I said in response to Duo -- it is supposed to be the JOURNEY that is the focus, not the end reward.

Focusing on the end reward makes you miss the forest for the trees.
#25 Mar 28 2017 at 9:41 AM Rating: Decent
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I like the idea of relics in this game, it is the type of content I normally like to do because I have the time but they are done so wrong in FFXIV. First they should just keep continuing through the whole game not thrown away when a new expansion comes out and start all over. Pretty much takes any reason to do them away. oh boy you get to trade them in a for a little advancement towards the next weapon. Also you spend all that time on it and it should be the best in the game. The game has so little reward for doing grind.

I did the first relic and loved doing it even though the process was messed up in the beginning but was angry when i finished and a few weeks later it was gone. Never got a chance to enjoy what I built.

I am working on the latest but only on the side. I am not going to put to much effort that after a bit they hand i to everyone.





Edited, Mar 28th 2017 11:46am by Nashred
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#26 Mar 28 2017 at 9:57 AM Rating: Good
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First they should just keep continuing through the whole game not thrown away when a new expansion comes out and start all over.


I used my Zeta for quite a while after HW launched.

In any event though, if the relic was built for the entire game as you suggest, you run into a problem when a new player comes in at expansion 7 or 8 and now in order to "catch up" they have to do 8 expansions worth of relic progression which probably represents 15 years of work. How is that supposed to work?

FFXIV is a vertical game. It's never going to not be a vertical game. And in a vertical game, the next expansion is supposed to offer more powerful advancement than the expansions before it.

You build a relic across an expansion. As the expansion goes on, it continues to grow until you're done at the end of the expansion. There's nothing wrong with that. You even get a little leg up on the next one if you finish as a bonus for finishing; that's pretty cool.
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#27 Mar 28 2017 at 10:16 AM Rating: Decent
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"They don't want players whining about a lack of content/"nothing to do" because they hungrily wolfed down what was put in front of them like a rabid starving dog that hasn't eaten in 10 years."

I wouldnt whine about lack of content cause I literally have 37 other games in my backlog that were 60 bucks when I bought em that are now 20-30 bucks now that I havent touched yet due to FFXIV taking up 90% of my gaming time. I would LOVE to be able to get through all this games content in 2 days and not have to touch it for another 88 until the next content patch is added while I play my OTHER stuff thats literally piling up.

Also if thats why SE has time gates then explain FFXIV 1.0 EXP caps? Did they or did they not say it was because they dint want players with more time leveling faster than those with less time? So yeah Im sure thats what the time gates in this game are for too.


"Especially THIS game. When SE announced it would rebuild XIV and launch it as a new game, Yoshi-P made clear this was going to be a casual-friendly game that could a) be played alongside another MMO and b) not dominate a person's schedule."

Lol play this alongside another MMO? Umm no I thought of trying to play EVE Online with this but I dont see hat being able to work well let alone well enough to justify paying for BOTH, Also did try Never winter or Star Trek Online for the same reasons. I can think of a million MMOs id LIKE to try but I dont see them and FFXIV being able to coexist with my time.
#28 Mar 28 2017 at 10:40 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
In any event though, if the relic was built for the entire game as you suggest, you run into a problem when a new player comes in at expansion 7 or 8 and now in order to "catch up" they have to do 8 expansions worth of relic progression which probably represents 15 years of work. How is that supposed to work?

FFXIV is a vertical game. It's never going to not be a vertical game. And in a vertical game, the next expansion is supposed to offer more powerful advancement than the expansions before it.


This, exactly.

And I've found my relic to be incredibly useful. My i270 paladin relic beats out anything else I could have in the game at this point... my static is still learning Zurvan, and the Sophia weapon (which I do have tokens for) is just i260... but I already had an i260 long before I could have had one from Sophia, thanks to the relic quest.

I've gotten months of use from my relic, and it's not over yet.

And when SB hits, the process "starts over," but it really doesn't. I'm still just climbing the ladder and doing the same things I would regardless of whether my previously finished weapon was "traded in." The only difference is that other players who didn't do the relic in HW can now jump in without being turned off by an even larger grind.

What's wrong with letting everyone start fresh with each expansion? Absolutely nothing. At least, not in this game, which was designed to be exactly this type of game with zero surprises.
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#29 Mar 28 2017 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
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People get too attached to gear. They're just tools to clear new fights. You're not gonna AFK in town so people can oogle your epic weapon you looted from Ragnaros. XIV isn't that type of game.
#30 Mar 28 2017 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

I wouldnt whine about lack of content cause I literally have 37 other games in my backlog that were 60 bucks when I bought em that are now 20-30 bucks now that I havent touched yet due to FFXIV taking up 90% of my gaming time. I would LOVE to be able to get through all this games content in 2 days and not have to touch it for another 88 until the next content patch is added while I play my OTHER stuff thats literally piling up.


YOU wouldn't whine, but lots of other people certainly would.

And SE doesn't want you to play 2 days out of 90, where's the fun in that?

Quote:
Also if thats why SE has time gates then explain FFXIV 1.0 EXP caps? Did they or did they not say it was because they dint want players with more time leveling faster than those with less time? So yeah Im sure thats what the time gates in this game are for too.


FFXIV 1.0 made a huge plethora of mistakes, and they realized these mistakes, and they turned away from these mistakes. You can't point at things they did in 1.0 and apply the same philosophy to ARR.

Quote:
Lol play this alongside another MMO? Umm no I thought of trying to play EVE Online with this but I dont see hat being able to work well let alone well enough to justify paying for BOTH, Also did try Never winter or Star Trek Online for the same reasons. I can think of a million MMOs id LIKE to try but I dont see them and FFXIV being able to coexist with my time.


As long as you're not trying to do relics and other junk as fast as you can, you could easily do XIV alongside another MMO. But again, it depends if you want to be ultra hardcore or not. Many casual players can easily do a couple MMOs. I play FFXI and FFXIV and sometimes some Warframe and even sometimes some singleplayer gaming and other activities on the side. I have fun with it.
#31 Mar 28 2017 at 12:22 PM Rating: Excellent
I play FFXIV regularly. I also play Fallout IV, FFXI (sporadically) and several other games off and on. And I'm an avid runner who works out at least once per day. And I work full time (I'm a manager, too). And I make sure to spend quality time with family and friends whenever possible.

So, yes, FFXIV can EASILY be played alongside another MMO. It's that type of game.
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#32 Mar 28 2017 at 1:57 PM Rating: Default
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Lyrailis wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:

I wouldnt whine about lack of content cause I literally have 37 other games in my backlog that were 60 bucks when I bought em that are now 20-30 bucks now that I havent touched yet due to FFXIV taking up 90% of my gaming time. I would LOVE to be able to get through all this games content in 2 days and not have to touch it for another 88 until the next content patch is added while I play my OTHER stuff thats literally piling up.


YOU wouldn't whine, but lots of other people certainly would.

And SE doesn't want you to play 2 days out of 90, where's the fun in that?

Quote:
Also if thats why SE has time gates then explain FFXIV 1.0 EXP caps? Did they or did they not say it was because they dint want players with more time leveling faster than those with less time? So yeah Im sure thats what the time gates in this game are for too.


FFXIV 1.0 made a huge plethora of mistakes, and they realized these mistakes, and they turned away from these mistakes. You can't point at things they did in 1.0 and apply the same philosophy to ARR.

Quote:
Lol play this alongside another MMO? Umm no I thought of trying to play EVE Online with this but I dont see hat being able to work well let alone well enough to justify paying for BOTH, Also did try Never winter or Star Trek Online for the same reasons. I can think of a million MMOs id LIKE to try but I dont see them and FFXIV being able to coexist with my time.


As long as you're not trying to do relics and other junk as fast as you can, you could easily do XIV alongside another MMO. But again, it depends if you want to be ultra hardcore or not. Many casual players can easily do a couple MMOs. I play FFXI and FFXIV and sometimes some Warframe and even sometimes some singleplayer gaming and other activities on the side. I have fun with it.



We'll yes youre right if youre not trying to "accomplish" anything then yes you can play a million different games at the same time. But whats the point of doing so if youre not playing to win" so to speak?

Also SE DOES want you to play 2 days out of 90... If they didnt theyd have enough content to make it so thats not possible... I mean look at FFXI... that game had so much content even on day one that even playing 8 hours a day 7 days a week you would NEVER do it all before something new was added. Thus the carrot was perpetually dangled in front of you and gave you a reason to log on and play all day EVERY day. FFXIV however is so lacking that they have to give you weekly lockouts so you CANT complete their sparse content before they can add new ones.

I mean FFXI is 12 years old and theres STILL content I have YET to see or venture into... ZNMs, TOAU kings, Pandemonium Warden, Einherjar, etc etc and that stuff is YEAR old at this point. Now THATS how you design content. Lets find years old content in FFXIV that even ONE person whos been playing since day one hasnt done yet?

Edited, Mar 28th 2017 3:02pm by DuoMaxwellxx
#33 Mar 28 2017 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent
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"In any event though, if the relic was built for the entire game as you suggest, you run into a problem when a new player comes in at expansion 7 or 8 and now in order to "catch up" they have to do 8 expansions worth of relic progression which probably represents 15 years of work. How is that supposed to work?"

How does that work? Easy in FFXI you didnt NEED relic by any means so if you joined 8 years late... ok dont get it. There is nothing in the game that is inaccessible or doable to you just because you lack a relic weapon. Plus looking at the list of stuff you have to do to get it and finding out how long that would take would turn most of from trying ANYWAY sooooo yeah. Just like theres things in FFXIV you dont NEED either. Ive NEVER owned a single piece of Savage or Coil gear because I was never "cool" enough to be able to even get into parties to TRY them because of the communities strict requirements (which is why FFXI will ALWAYS be the better game... or at least better community). Thus I get the highest tome gear available then when the inevitable patch comes out that lets me get the upgrade items through 24 man raid I upgrade them that way. Quite simple. Ill never be BiS but at least Ill be the highest IL available.
#34 Mar 28 2017 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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How does that work? Easy in FFXI you didnt NEED relic by any means so if you joined 8 years late... ok dont get it.


This isn't FFXI.

Quote:
Plus looking at the list of stuff you have to do to get it and finding out how long that would take would turn most of from trying ANYWAY sooooo yeah.


I'd probably avoid starting it NOW, this close to the expansion. But it's still doable. Before my internet turned into a potato I was even entertaining the idea of starting a second anima weapon because I'd calculated that I had enough time to do it.

Quote:
Ive NEVER owned a single piece of Savage or Coil gear because I was never "cool" enough to be able to even get into parties to TRY them because of the communities strict requirements (which is why FFXI will ALWAYS be the better game... or at least better community).


Because FFXI communities never had ridiculous requirements to enter content. Nope. Never. Didn't happen. Scurrilous lies. Smiley: dubious

Quote:
Thus I get the highest tome gear available then when the inevitable patch comes out that lets me get the upgrade items through 24 man raid I upgrade them that way. Quite simple. Ill never be BiS but at least Ill be the highest IL available.


Hey me too. That's what I've been doing most of this time.

Btw I usually play FFXIV alongside another MMO. Usually WoW.. though WoW has introduced other problems lately that have turned me off on it. Generally I play FFXIV casually and raid in WoW, or I do story content in SWTOR, or I level and ***** around in FFXI. There's always something. FFXIV is not that demanding on my time that I can't play something else next to it.
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#35 Mar 28 2017 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
We'll yes youre right if youre not trying to "accomplish" anything then yes you can play a million different games at the same time. But whats the point of doing so if youre not playing to win" so to speak?


Playing to "win"? Win what? I don't recall this being a competition or anything like that.

I log on, make progress on my character for awhile, and then log off. The only time I don't win, is if I failed to have fun while I was logged on.

If I had fun between the time I logged on and the time I logged off, I did indeed "win". So yes, I play to "win".

Quote:
Also SE DOES want you to play 2 days out of 90... If they didnt theyd have enough content to make it so thats not possible...


lol, I don't know where you keep getting these silly ideas. There's plenty of content in XIV, you just gobbled it all up. You think it's as simple as "add more content"? That content takes TIME to make. It isn't like FFXI where it's yet more copypasta, yet another zone that you can only access once every once in awhile, that's full of the same mobs you've been fighting all along, yadda yadda.

Quote:
I mean look at FFXI... that game had so much content even on day one that even playing 8 hours a day 7 days a week you would NEVER do it all before something new was added.


Eh, I doubt it. The main barrier to getting things done in FFXI, was GRIND. Back before Abyssea, it took WEEKS to levelup. But that wasn't really fun. Killing the same 4-5 enemies over and over and over and over again wasn't fun.

Quote:
Thus the carrot was perpetually dangled in front of you and gave you a reason to log on and play all day EVERY day. FFXIV however is so lacking that they have to give you weekly lockouts so you CANT complete their sparse content before they can add new ones.


They give weekly lockouts to prevent people gobbling down the content in a few days due to a lack of self-control.

Quote:
I mean FFXI is 12 years old and theres STILL content I have YET to see or venture into... ZNMs, TOAU kings, Pandemonium Warden, Einherjar, etc etc and that stuff is YEAR old at this point. Now THATS how you design content. Lets find years old content in FFXIV that even ONE person whos been playing since day one hasnt done yet?

Edited, Mar 28th 2017 3:02pm by DuoMaxwellxx


You haven't done that stuff, because you didn't have the uber gear and uber connections so that you had 30-40 people at your beck&call to do this stuff for you. The only reason you can do it now, is because a lot of this stuff is solo-able thanks to Item-Level Gear and Trusts. If it weren't for those, you still couldn't do it lol.
#36 Mar 28 2017 at 3:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Playing to "win"? Win what?


You know... "the things." Smiley: wink
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#37 Mar 28 2017 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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umm FFXI never had " ridiculous requirements to enter content" or required uber ger to do. I mean EVERYOE let complete fresh newbies join in on Dynamis with zero experience before hand instead of all the "must have clear or no bonus/experince only" community we have now" How do you get experience if you cant get in to begin with? I COULd have been able to do all those things I hadnt done but never got around to it because I had BUNCH OF other stuff to do. The only barrier most ppl in XI had was job class... i,.e good luck being wanted in anything if you were lets say a thf (unless they needed TH in which case they only needed one of you). But I had thf, brd and SAM leveled so there was NO content I couldnt get in (except maybe Salvage because of the whole mnks are better with no equipment" thing but I even managed to get in there sooooo yeah
#38 Mar 28 2017 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
umm FFXI never had " ridiculous requirements to enter content" or required uber ger to do. I mean EVERYOE let complete fresh newbies join in on Dynamis with zero experience before hand instead of all the "must have clear or no bonus/experince only" community we have now" How do you get experience if you cant get in to begin with?


I take it you never actually did this stuff, or even tried to, right? Yeah, you go ahead and show up to a Kirin Fight wearing AF and other random assorted junk and see if you don't get laughed out of the alliance. lol. (back in the day, I mean)

You could MAYBE get away with showing up to a Dynamis as a WHM in blah gear (I did a couple times), but as a DPS, or much less a Tank? Absolutely Not. You needed good gear.

Apparently you don't remember the scads of DRKs, MNKs, and DRGs shouting for days wanting an endgame Linkshell, or heck, even an XP group took hours to get.

Quote:
I COULd have been able to do all those things I hadnt done but never got around to it because I had BUNCH OF other stuff to do. The only barrier most ppl in XI had was job class... i,.e good luck being wanted in anything if you were lets say a thf (unless they needed TH in which case they only needed one of you). But I had thf, brd and SAM leveled so there was NO content I couldnt get in (except maybe Salvage because of the whole mnks are better with no equipment" thing but I even managed to get in there sooooo yeah


Yeah, there was just SOOOO much to do.... not. You had the expansion story line, and you had... endgame crap, most of which was camping mobs for pop items, until ToAU when they added stuff like Assault and Salvage, but even then... you still needed good gear to do that stuff. And actual groups, you know? But you see, one thing most groups didn't like doing, was carrying any random DPS that wanted to get into their groups. They might carry a tank, or a brd, or somebody, but they're not going to carry some no-name DPS, lol..

Edited, Mar 28th 2017 7:38pm by Lyrailis
#39 Mar 28 2017 at 8:46 PM Rating: Decent
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youre right no one did Kirin in AF but at level 75 most ppl werent still wearing AF anyway. as thf I had an ohat, emp pin leaping boots (you still wore those that early at 75) Scorpion harness, the only piece of AF I still wore was the pants, and then there was the dragon armor which as long as it wasnt +1 was super cheap and buyable from an AH. So yeah I dont think ANYONE was still wearin FULL AF at 75, but lets say they did, ok so your alliance take crap but at the end of the day you still got in and got it killed, you know cause more than half of everyone else was wearin decent gear, 1 person or even 2 or 3 in sub[ar gear (unless its a tank) its gonna make or break the alliances chances of winning.

Plus strategy and skill in that game beat job or gear any day. I mean my entire CoP static (which we completed pre any nerfs) did every mission without a single smn in our party or a nin or war/nin heck or even ANYONE with a nin sub period war or otherwise. Yet if you went by shouts in Jeuno youd think those were the ONLY jobs that could finish a CoP mission. Well clearly me and my team didnt get the memo and if we did it was wrong cause we still got the job done. Sure we spent about 150k per fight attempt on iwing, pots ethers etc etc but you do what you gotta do if you wanna win.

XIV on the other hand you can be the highest IL available, WAY past the IL requirement to do said fight and ppl STILL wont let you TRY because you havent done it before or cleared it (which makes no sense, cant clear or do it before if no one lets you right)? Start your own learning party you say? Sure wonderful idea... except now you wait 4 hours and it doesnt even fill up lol.. sooo 4 hours and you accomplished nothing.... what were we saying about being able to play other games with XIV again? Cause Im sure 4 hours to get NOTHING done is counter productive to having time for other games right? lol
#40 Mar 28 2017 at 10:01 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
what were we saying about being able to play other games with XIV again? Cause Im sure 4 hours to get NOTHING done is counter productive to having time for other games right? lol


Well I guess that depends on how you want to play. If you want to play XIV more hardcore, then you need a static to cut out all that wasted time. But I have a great time with my once-weekly static that just plays for two hours. So, yes, plenty of time for other games AND I can do harder fights in XIV!
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#41 Mar 29 2017 at 5:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Statics wouldnt work for me these days "thanks" to having a job whos days and times change weekly thus being availible at pne day and time this week doesnt mean i will be on the same day and timethe next one. In fact i WONT be. So yeah PUG is my only option

Edited, Mar 29th 2017 6:57am by DuoMaxwellxx
#42 Mar 29 2017 at 6:04 AM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Statics wouldnt work for me these days "thanks" to having a job whos days and times change weekly thus being availible at pne day and time this week doesnt mean i will be on the same day and timethe next one. In fact i WONT be. So yeah PUG is my only option

Edited, Mar 29th 2017 6:57am by DuoMaxwellxx


Among the same reasons I never did endgame in FFXI.

But yet we're kinda straying from the original topic of FFXIV and its endgame compared to FFXI, aren't we? You argue that FFXI's endgame is better, but yet oddly enough, at least in FFXIV you didn't hit a huge brick wall at max level and be unable to do hardly anything, you could at least farm tomestones with the daily roulettes if absolutely nothing else. And of course, there are plenty of side-activities to do on the side, even.

I remember in FFXI... if you got a job to max level, all there was left to do was.... farm, craft, or level another job. Everything else needed an endgame linkshell. There were almost no PUGs doing actual content. Nobody PUG'd Dynamis... Sky... etc. unless you were a BRD, or a healer and had a good reputation, then maybe someone might have tossed you a /tell asking you to sub in for a night because their usual wasn't available.
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